Megadeth Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 This is really making me angry. Saber defense in Jedi Outcast is much better than in Jedi Academy. This is ridiculous, even when saber defense is set to maximum the saber does not block several shots. Try it for yourself. Open Jedi outcast, set saber defense to max and spawn 10 trandoshans - you WON´T get hit. They will die due to the projectiles you deflected eventually. Try it in Jedi Academy. Instead of 10 trandoshans spawn only 2 imperial officers - YOU WILL GET HIT. It is starting to vex me greatly. However, I must agree that to block all shots from 10 trandoshans is something that goes beyond the most skilled jedi. The issue is that even the mindless npc in the game can hit you with ease. I think both JO and JA have a lack of balance in saber defense. JO surpasses the commom sense, having Kyle to block thousands of shots even when running. And JA, even when at max saber defense level, makes Jaden wield the saber as my grandmother would do. It is a matter of balance. It is ridiculous to see a single imperial officer being able to break a dual saber defense with a also ridiculous pistol just because Jaden is running. I hope the next games to be more realistic indeed or there is a patch coming out soon to even things up. You should agree with me that for a Jedi, it would be kind of lethal to miss the shot instead of blocking it. Think about Star Wars episodes especially Qui-gonn and obi-wan in the first episode blocking all shot from the droids ans destroyers. That would be realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinny Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 i think that they were trying to get the boba fett killing that one jedi knight effect. sure if you saw shots coming in a row you could block them all regardless of the frequency, but when they come out in sporadic rhythms, your saber will be knocked back and you'll be open to the other shots, which i think JA got perfectly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow_Nest Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Raven has made saber defelcting and saber battles more like the movies. And in the movies jedi still get hit and die even while deflecting blaster shots. But who knows? Raven might fix it in another patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothiX Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 No. Patch. You don't seem to get it, Crow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Vogel Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I give you a cookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giddamon Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadeth Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Tinny: "sure if you saw shots coming in a row you could block them all regardless of the frequency, but when they come out in sporadic rhythms, your saber will be knocked back and you'll be open to the other shots, which i think JA got perfectly" Take a look at episode 1. Qui-gon and Obi-wan are RUNNING and deflecting all shots from all directions. In JA there is a too long delay from one block to the next one. Originally posted by |GG|Crow_Nest "Raven has made saber defelcting and saber battles more like the movies. And in the movies jedi still get hit and die even while deflecting blaster shots" What episode? Read the lines above about episode 1. If you are talking about episode 2, remember there is a huge difference between blocking shots from hundreds of droids using one saber and blocking shots from three troopers using dual sabers or a saber staff. That is what I am talking about. Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel "Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing." As I said, in episode 1, Jedi knights can move and deflect shots without any problem. This is good skill, to deflect and to attack, always using the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiberator34 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I'd say rely more on attack than deflecting shots. Plus some force powers. I just charge into groups of storm troopers(when i played ja sp). I do see where you're coming from though. They really screwed up the movement speed of saber combat on several levels. I just hope the next time they try to make a jedi game they don't reiterate past mistakes. arg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I remember JO, hehehe... I used to block the laser turrets fire, and fire it back at them. I loved the blocking in JO, you could just block almost anything, and just place your crosshair on where you want the lasers to fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow_Nest Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Megadeth What episode? Read the lines above about episode 1. If you are talking about episode 2, remember there is a huge difference between blocking shots from hundreds of droids using one saber and blocking shots from three troopers using dual sabers or a saber staff. That is what I am talking about. Its the same whether you're using dual sabers, staff or single. Just because staff and dual has 2 blades doesnt mean delfecting will be better or faster. Originally posted by Giddamon agreed No offence pal, but posts that just say "I agree", "I must agree" or "agreed" alone is spamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Vogel Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I give you a cookie Yummy But I reckon I had a point cos not all Jedi Knights were capable of blocking or parrying shot after shot. See EpII where many Jedi Knights are killed? Yeah, case closed Your Honour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 The lowered saber defense was one of the positive changes I saw from Jedi Outcast - subtle yet effective. I remember being able to take my hands off the keyboard playing JKII at times - just hang out waiting for your enemies to reflect-blast themselves to death! I like charging in like an arrogant padawan (I just started JA on my Mac after finally being done with BG2 -whew-, my character is kind of like 'Mission' if you get the picture) into a bunch of sand people and barely scraping my way out alive ... it is a bit of a role play - my Jaden is going to spend a lot of her life in the bacta tank Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel Yummy But I reckon I had a point cos not all Jedi Knights were capable of blocking or parrying shot after shot. See EpII where many Jedi Knights are killed? Yeah, case closed Your Honour I was giving you a supportive cookie because I was agreeing with you And good to see you back here Mike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Megadeth Originally posted by Tinny: "sure if you saw shots coming in a row you could block them all regardless of the frequency, but when they come out in sporadic rhythms, your saber will be knocked back and you'll be open to the other shots, which i think JA got perfectly" Take a look at episode 1. Qui-gon and Obi-wan are RUNNING and deflecting all shots from all directions. In JA there is a too long delay from one block to the next one. Granted, they were blocking shots from battledroids, which has been shown as perhaps the most ineffective soldiers ever "You will find clones are immensely superior to droids." Thus even stormtroopers are superior to droids... Personally, I don't seem to have a problem moving and blocking shots. I have to aim properly and move cautiously though. Originally posted by Megadeth Originally posted by |GG|Crow_Nest "Raven has made saber defelcting and saber battles more like the movies. And in the movies jedi still get hit and die even while deflecting blaster shots" What episode? Read the lines above about episode 1. If you are talking about episode 2, remember there is a huge difference between blocking shots from hundreds of droids using one saber and blocking shots from three troopers using dual sabers or a saber staff. That is what I am talking about. How about Coleman Trebor getting blasted by Jango? How about Luke getting shot in the hand in ROTJ? That's not hundreds of opponants. Again, these cases are against superior opponants. What the Jedi do against ineffective droids should not be take as what they can do against everything. Ep. 2 goes very far to show us that Jedi are not omnipotent beings that are unbeatable. Jedi Academy reflects this well. Originally posted by Megadeth Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel "Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing." As I said, in episode 1, Jedi knights can move and deflect shots without any problem. This is good skill, to deflect and to attack, always using the force. You can move and deflect shots in Jedi Academy as well. But you must choose properly how you do this, otherwise you will get hit. Also, moving in JA causes some enemies to miss more often, so you don't have to deflect the shot. Running around wildly is not the key to success Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Vogel Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Prime I was giving you a supportive cookie because I was agreeing with you Yay! Nice to know I make sense occasionnally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Prime Running around wildly is not the key to success Darn ... next you're going to say that being a blue stance whirlwind isn't a strategy ... Seriously, in many ways JA is easier than JKII, so I think the lowered defense - making you plan more - is a very, very good thing. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Darn ... next you're going to say that being a blue stance whirlwind isn't a strategy ... Certainly not. But keep in mind that I used to play Mortal Combat back in the day and just mashed buttons while thinking I was uber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Prime Certainly not. But keep in mind that I used to play Mortal Combat back in the day and just mashed buttons while thinking I was uber. Reminds me of how I played foosball in college ... and boy did it tick off the '1337 skillz' players who I beat while exemplifying entropy and chaos ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Reminds me of how I played foosball in college ... and boy did it tick off the '1337 skillz' players who I beat while exemplifying entropy and chaos ... Mike Not to mention finding an actual use for geometry... We just bought a nice fooseball table. Damn it's fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Prime Not to mention finding an actual use for geometry... We just bought a nice fooseball table. Damn it's fun... My wife's parents give us money to get gifts for the kids each Christmas, and this year we got a nice '10 in 1' game table. We've all been having a blast between foosball and air hockey ... and come to find out I actually learned to shoot somewhere in there ... I'm up through the first tier and into the first (brrr) plot missions ... boy I had forgotten just how much I love this game ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadeth Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 It seems I wasn´t able to make myself clear. Again I say, both games present a lack of common sense regarding saber deffense. I will endorse my opinion with the words of Qui-gon and Obi-wan. Episode 1: Qui-gon tells to Anakin, just before the pod race begins: "do not think, just follow your instinct, follow the force" Episode 4: Obi-wan tells Luke, inside the Millenium Falcon, while he is training with a robot (sentry): "do not think, feel the force through you" The question is, force deffense (or saber deffense) is somewhat automatic. There is no need to think or no skill requirement. It is a native power that acts despite the Jedi´s will. Imagine if you put your hand into the fire. What would be your mind´s reaction to it? To put away your hands out of there, right? Automatic, instinct. You don´t think about it, it just happens. Taking these statements to JK environment: the player should not aim to the area/npc where the shots are coming from in order to have force deffense to work properly. It should be an automatic feature and should provide better protection. No matter where the shots are coming from, they should be blocked or at least the great majority of them. Keep in mind it is not me who´s saying it: it´s Qui-gon and Obi-wan. I´m afraid it wouldn´t be wise to argue with them. And someone said about skill, right? I think saber deffense (when you are not attacking) should work without any skill requirement. In another hand, to attack an opponent without being hit by his shots takes great skill. You must predict, calculate, foresee the enemy movement in order to attack without being hit. Another good point is that there is no (or there should not be) such thing as stronger non-force user opponents. A stormtrooper do not has the power of the force, so it is quite strange to justify his shots from breaking saber deffense. A Jedi can naturally "foresee" (even without being aware of that) the shots before they hit him, so a non-force user npc should be weaker than a Jedi, especially a rank 3 Jedi knight. By the way, thanks to all for participating in my first thread. I really like to know other player´s opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 The fact is, hit detection in JA is different than JK2. It was made to be "more realistic." Sure, this can have bad side effects for example with lag in MP it can appear as if you hit somebody and you didn't or you missed them and they really were hit, etc. The point is to force you to have better aim. If you hit somebody in the head they should die unless it's some special circumstance (say, level 3 rage/protection + full shields and health), if you hit them in the arm or leg it should do barely any damage. Single player doesn't suffer from lag, but the hit detection system isn't foolproof and glitches do occur. About all I can suggest is play around with some of the cvars and see if you can "tweak" it to your liking. Try the "not enough customization" threads and RazorAce's comments in the OJP project forum for some pointers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by Megadeth The question is, force deffense (or saber deffense) is somewhat automatic. There is no need to think or no skill requirement. It is a native power that acts despite the Jedi´s will. See - I think that is only partly true. What the Jedi have is an heightened sense of attunement to what is going on around them. There was a great scene from one of the JediApprentice books (the first I think) where Obi and QuiGon were walking and as soon as they entered an area QuiGon told Obi to close his eyes and describe the area. When he misses some details, Qui Gon chides him - and later on he doesn't make the same mistake. So it *is* skill dependant, and given that each Jedi has an inherent skill set and depth of attunement, it should be variable. In the game, I think you should need to be facing your opponent - or at least have your saber swing around behind you to block. An advanced system might actually give an 'active' defense - when your senses are attuned enough, you automatically swing around to block back the shot accurately. But you could be sure that many people here would complain about having the game moving them around. Personally I just like that the defense *does* improve as the game progresses, but never makes you invulnerable. At least it isn't like in Jedi Knight - where at the end of the game, the Jedi could face a single Imperial officer with a blaster pistol and expect to die if depending on defense alone. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by Megadeth It seems I wasn´t able to make myself clear. Again I say, both games present a lack of common sense regarding saber deffense. I disagree completely. Originally posted by Megadeth I will endorse my opinion with the words of Qui-gon and Obi-wan. Episode 1: Qui-gon tells to Anakin, just before the pod race begins: "do not think, just follow your instinct, follow the force" Episode 4: Obi-wan tells Luke, inside the Millenium Falcon, while he is training with a robot (sentry): "do not think, feel the force through you" But Obi-Wan also responded to Luke's question about whether the Force controls your actions with, "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." So the Force is not something that completely takes over control of your body. It more or less fine tunes and enhances the actions you are trying to perform. The Jedi has to contiously make the effort to deflect blaster shots, but the Force controls his actions enough to be able to actually do that. What you are suggesting is that a Jedi could be thinking about having a nice picnic in a sunny meadow while sipping a cup of tea, and at the same time deflecting shots from stormtroopers. This is not the case. And Qui-Gon is mearly saying follow your instincts and not overthink things. This is like altheletes. Overthinking leads to poor performances. Letting your training and instincts take over is ideal. But training and instincts still require the player to make a contious effort to perform the task at hand, for example hitting a shot or catching a pass. This does not mean that your mind can be elsewhere. Originally posted by Megadeth The question is, force deffense (or saber deffense) is somewhat automatic. It is pretty much completely automatic. If you are facing the opponant you don't have to do a thing. Originally posted by Megadeth There is no need to think or no skill requirement. It is a native power that acts despite the Jedi´s will. I disagree, based on what is seen in the movies. Obi-wan specifically states that the Force only partially controls your actions, and also obeys your commands. It does not control the Jedi's will. And there is a skill requirement. It has been stated (in some of the SW books I think, if not elsewhere), that there are 7 styles of lightsaber combat. I forget which one, but there is one form that is known as the "diplomats form". This form is less combat oriented than the others, and requires less skill to use. It is also stated that every Jedi who used that form and fought at Geonosis died. So there is some skill involved. Originally posted by Megadeth Imagine if you put your hand into the fire. What would be your mind´s reaction to it? To put away your hands out of there, right? Automatic, instinct. You don´t think about it, it just happens. Your mind may tell you to do that, but your body still has to be physically able to perform the required action. What if you are unable to pull your hand out for some reason, such as something stronger than you was holding it in there? Then your mind can say whatever it wants, but your body connot comply. This is the same with deflecting shots. The Jedi can have the his mind wanting to deflect a shot, and the Force trying to get him where his blade needs to be, but if his body (force enhanced or otherwise) is unable to get the blade to that position (not enough time or whatever) then he will get hit. Originally posted by Megadeth Taking these statements to JK environment: the player should not aim to the area/npc where the shots are coming from in order to have force deffense to work properly. It should be an automatic feature and should provide better protection. No matter where the shots are coming from, they should be blocked or at least the great majority of them. Frankly, it provides great protection as it is. To me, having the player face the direction the shots are coming from represents the mind giving the Force commands, and the autodeflection as the Force controlling your actions. I think that system works quite well. Besides, Luke gets hit in ROTJ when he is not facing his opponent. Jedi are no omnipotent. They have limits, which is why so many jedi died at Geonosis. Regardless, we must remember than movies and video games are very different mediums. Not everything that works in one works well in the other. Gameplay must also be considered (and really take precidence). Being able to block everything without taking any input from the player is a pretty poor gameplay choice. No input from the player usually means no fun. There is so sense of accomplishment, since a monkey could run around and do just as well. Personally, I think Raven has struck a good balance. Originally posted by Megadeth Keep in mind it is not me who´s saying it: it´s Qui-gon and Obi-wan. I´m afraid it wouldn´t be wise to argue with them. But you are only listening to parts of what they say, and disregarding the rest that disagree with your opinion. Originally posted by Megadeth And someone said about skill, right? I think saber deffense (when you are not attacking) should work without any skill requirement. In another hand, to attack an opponent without being hit by his shots takes great skill. You must predict, calculate, foresee the enemy movement in order to attack without being hit. Under your system, attacking would take no skill either since I could just stand there and deflect every shot back at my enemies, and eventually killing them. All the while, I could go get a coffee and watch some TV, since it wouldn't require any input from the player. Wow, fun game. Originally posted by Megadeth Another good point is that there is no (or there should not be) such thing as stronger non-force user opponents. A stormtrooper do not has the power of the force, so it is quite strange to justify his shots from breaking saber deffense. And yet Jango does it, and some nobody on Jabba's sail barge does it, and a boatload of battledroids do it. So why can't JA reflect the movies and have the same thing? And as for stormtroopers fighting Jedi, we don't know how many shots they would get through, since IIRC we have never seen this confrontation in the movies. Originally posted by Megadeth A Jedi can naturally "foresee" (even without being aware of that) the shots before they hit him, so a non-force user npc should be weaker than a Jedi, especially a rank 3 Jedi knight. But they are aware of it. Otherwise the Force has no commands to obey. And a non-Force user is a lot weaker than a Jedi in JA, in almost every sense. The Jedi can still deflect 99% of the shots coming his way if he has the skill. To me, this is a good representation of the movies and at the same time making the game fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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