Dark Forces 2 Mod

[Bomberman65]

Come on. You can tell us we're all friends here. Arn't we??

Tell us or I'll use my Jedi Mind Trick on you. lol Just kidding.

[Sir Vougalot]

Okay, I'll tell you. Here it is:

 

 

 

 

Jerec dies in the end.

[ZemmurkTrooper]

[jedispy]

Hey there fellas, just checking in. Be there any news on the DF2MOD front?

[Bomberman65]

Well they've got something to tell us but they won't yet which is kool in their own time.

Oh and I know Jerec dies I've got the original game and the Dark Forces book trilogy.

[Bomberman65]

Well they've got something to tell us but they won't yet which is kool. In their own time.

Oh and I know Jerec dies I've got the original game and the Dark Forces book trilogy.

Sorry for the double post.

[DarkStarMojo]

Just that things are moving along smoothly. We're dedicated to making this mod the best it possibly can be so it's going to take time what with our limited schedules and all. Basically, though, I've got some new screenies in the pipeline showing the latest on level 1 and you're all in for a real treat with this one.

 

Can we expect a demo soon??

 

Not in the foreseeable future. We're more interested in building the superstructure of the mod - the essentials that are necessary to actually build a demo - and, thus, we aren't working toward any definitive plans on this matter. Things may change of course but, at the moment, sorry.

 

Jerec dies in the end.

 

Who gave you permission to post mod-related spoilers in this thread? And without spoiler tags too?

 

Nah, it's cool. Jerec DOES die but so do all the other dark Jedi.

[jedispy]

double postings aside...SOTE MOD is here if you need us. Why don't you have Shamus come on over to our forum so we can discuss matters further.

[Bomberman65]

Oh btw did any of the pics of Kyle I gave you help with his belt??

[DarkStarMojo]

Unfortunately, I was not able to start moddeling over break and it looks doubtful, at least for a while, that I'll be able to make any headway in that department. But the references images will definitely be of use when I finally do get around to it.

 

Jedispy, I have to apologize for not being able to work too much on a mod exchange. It seems my job mapping level 1 and additional texture recreation duties which I did not initally anticipate taking on, have gotten the better of me. I'm still up for the idea, of course, if you guys want a mapper with a lot of architectural experience to at least make things look visuall stunning. (Yeah, I'm not being very modest here )

[jedispy]

Hey bro, your mod is a priority to you. I understand and respect that. You just never gave us a list of top priority models. We have two of the best modellers out there (I'm not too modest either. I value the people on our team very much. ) If you need characters/objects/vehicles, just let us know. I'll try to work with our modellers and see what can be done. JA is a dying community, so we need to help each other out.

 

I just wish we had a way of converting our original game's assets. You guys got lucky. Having smarty-pants Shamus on your team sure is nice.

[Bomberman65]

Yeah we all need to help in any way we can.

Oh Jedispy is their anything I can help in a small way???

[jedispy]

Well I don't mean to steal DF2MOD's thunder here. If anyone's interested in learning more about our mod, go to our website. We also have a forum where we discuss mod projects (we even have a DF2MOD thread there.)

[DarkStarMojo]

Don't worry about it, dude. I'll look into priority models. Most of the opponents should be easy to handle but some of the weapons, like the concussion rifle, need redesigning before they can be modeled. I'll look into everything over the weekend and see what can't be done.

 

Having smarty-pants Shamus on your team sure is nice.

 

Well, I can't speak for Shamus, but I don't think any of us would have a problem with you guys using our converter tools except that they wouldn't function with the original SOTE and we don't have the time to write another program to fulfill this function. But, hey. We may not have the best mappers in the business (that goes to DFMOD, I think) but we're getting there .

[Bomberman65]

Man this place is like a ghost town oh and I'd like to help you guys out any way I can, just tell me and if I can do it I will. Oh and not that I'm rushing you MoJo but where are those pics of level 1??

[Kurgan]

Is anyone actually working on this right now or are we just dreaming here (the DF2Mod)?

[DarkStarMojo]

http://shamusworld.gotdns.org/df2mod/news.html

 

DF2MOD is a reality and we're very busy (in between school and work, of course) working on it. I think you can all expect some updates soon, namely screenshots of level 1, as I've finished my latest updates to it, and I'm ready to take the best shots. I don't know if they'll be up this weekend, exactly, but they should be within the next few days.

[Sir Vougalot]

I'm no expert or anything, but would I be correct in assuming that it may very well be years from now before you're finished? No rush, I'm just trying to knock some reality into myself.

[ZemmurkTrooper]

the whole mod, mabe, but the same fate is going to happen for the DF mod.

 

As of the release, im not authorized to say

[Kurgan]

I know it will take years and years (if they're ever completed) my question is, will something playable be released every so often to make the waiting worthwhile?

 

Because if you wait until the whole thing is done, chances are people will give up. JK1 took years to come out, and that was with a professional team and high budget. The levels are HUGE. Dark Forces Mod is taking an incredible amount of time for something so simple (relatively speaking, compared to JK1 of course). Obviously amateur projects run into all kinds of hurdles and unforseen problems. I know, I've been on such a team before. We never got our mod done (only our "demo", it was for JK1). Those are the breaks.

 

But with something public to test every so often, I think that can really help keep a long-term (multi-year) project going a little better. And don't give out release dates you don't intend to keep. Just release something say every few months and that will be great. Or else don't say anything to anyone until the whole thing is done (don't even announce it) and then promote the heck out of it once it's ready for release!

[DarkStarMojo]

More or less, that's how we'd like to handle things. Our Christmas Present, the Yun level (I'm sure you noticed it on the news page ) is indicative of how we want to handle releases, specifically the Dark Jedi levels. Gorc & Pic, Boc, and Maw are all being worked on at different stages of development and when they're finished we'll probably release them, either individually or as a single download, it all depends. Like Yun, they'll probably be released as duel levels but you never know. An actual demo will only happen when we have something substantial to release. Level 1 is coming along nicely and we have three more levels already in development so anyone of them is a potential candidate. At the moment, however, we want to focus on keeping things simple and try not to get too far ahead of ourselves. I'm sure Shamus and Zemmurk can attest to that.

[Kurgan]

More or less, that's how we'd like to handle things. Our Christmas Present, the Yun level (I'm sure you noticed it on the news page ) is indicative of how we want to handle releases, specifically the Dark Jedi levels. Gorc & Pic, Boc, and Maw are all being worked on at different stages of development and when they're finished we'll probably release them, either individually or as a single download, it all depends. Like Yun, they'll probably be released as duel levels but you never know. An actual demo will only happen when we have something substantial to release. Level 1 is coming along nicely and we have three more levels already in development so anyone of them is a potential candidate. At the moment, however, we want to focus on keeping things simple and try not to get too far ahead of ourselves. I'm sure Shamus and Zemmurk can attest to that.

 

Sorry, which news page? Releasing the levels is one thing. I agree the "Dark Jedi" levels would be easiest since they're fairly small and simply a map to duel in. Doing scripting, objectives, the morality scale, and cutscenes is where you'll run into trouble and it'll take the most time. That and the huge, huge single player levels! A skin/model pack, a weapons pack, and some multiplayer maps I think would be the way to go for starters. That way you could get stuff for people to play with, guage the rest of the project, and not have to worry about a 5-10 year project that nobody will see anything usable from for most of it (just being realistic here!).

 

As of right now, nobody has done a satisfactory release of the 6 MP levels included with JK1 (not even counting the Dark Jedi or any addons). Canyon Oasis has seen a few incarnations but none of them are quite right. One got the architecture right, but the scale seemed off, the textures weren't right and of course the cogs (what's the point of water if you don't have proper swimming animations? I wonder if Hydroball fixed this? and that "lightning trap" doesn't even work in the new version like it did in the old game) were off. Battleground Jedi might have been done, though there's no way to force throw the debris around, which is a downer. We already have "BGJ2" included in JK2, so what most people did was just re-texture it, but it still doesn't quite look like the "real thing" did. Nar Shaddaa Loading Terminal, has a long ways to go. Somebody got the architecture right but none of the awesome traps or the force field, etc are really the way they should be, meaning the atmosphere is gone. Another major problem is that this map made great use of darkness and shadows. But since the darkness is impermeable in JA, it sucks. In the original version you could use force seeing to dispell the darkness, or your field light or lightsaber or IR Goggles to clear up the darkness (but also cast shadows and a glow that would give you away to others, except in the case of IR goggles that gave you perfect sight but it had a green tint, unlike the horrible excuse for IR goggles in Jedi Outcast).

 

The other maps haven't even been attempted to my knowledge. Basically you need the original weapons and some kind of darkness dispelling effects to really do the maps justice. And you need the swimming effects and textures that are if not re-creations of the original textures (like the Dark Forces Mod project does with their textures) or at least something CLOSE, rather than just basic JA/JK2 textures slapped onto every surface.

 

Essentially my dream for a Jedi Knight to JA thing would be the multiplayer component Totally Converted. About the only thing that would remain from JA would be the HUD and the gameplay (the weapons would be different and you could add in the new force powers too for more realism.. Throw, Blind, Deadly Sight, Destruction, Seeing that dispels darkness, etc). I suppose putting in the MAP would be difficult, but perhaps by modifying the Siege "Map" to work with Force seeing and be scalable and transparent?

[DarkStarMojo]

That should be the link I provided above. It's the first post on the page, dated December 25, 2005.

 

Recreating any levels, MP included, is easy enough and they would be 1:1 scale recreations with all the original textures, so no need to worry about that. Weapons, force powers adjustments, etc., will come soon enough. I suppose once all those elements are ready, we can look at the possibility of releasing recreations of the mp maps to keep everyone's interest perked. I wouldn't expect too much to jump until at least the summer, what with school and work schedules for us and all.

[jedispy]

Just to warn any JK & JA n00bs, there are spoilers in this post. If you don't want to know deep dark secrets of JK or JA, then don't read.

 

 

 

Hopefully you will be able to recruit more people. May I make a suggestion. Try moddb.com. I put the SOTE mod on there a few days ago, and we've been getting quite a bit more attention lately.

 

I agree with Kurgan on many points. All three of us (DFMOD, DF2MOD, and SOTE MOD) need to each examine our projects on a scale of feasability. By feasibility, I am referring to the cost of time & people resources. How much time does something take, and how many people will it take to do?

 

What is it that can feasibly be done? On our team, we have people with animation experience. There are some things, we're learning, that either can not be done in JA, or can't FEASIBLY be done in a reasonable timeframe. There are some space levels, that we had planned, that are most likely going to be converted from a playable level into a cinematic.

 

Carefully reconsider what you can feasibly do. One major concern of mine is your morality scale. Do I like having the morality scale in JK? YES. Do I think that a morality scale can be done in DF2MOD? ABSOLUTELY. With all that said, it's going to take extensive code to accomplish this. I'm not sure how JK did the morality scale, but it seems to me that it only counted which light/dark side powers you selected in the force allocation menu. Did it actually take into consideration your actions in the game? I don't know. It seems to me that if you're going to do a morality scale, then you ought to do it right. That means calculating for:

1. Killing an unarmed person, whether hostile or not. (i.e. using mind trick instead of killing hostiles)

2. Selecting to learn Light/Dark Side powers

3. Using Light/Dark side powers. (i.e. owning a gun is different than killing someone)

4. Saving innocents from danger.

 

The other option is to do it like they did in JA. In JA, it doesn't matter what force powers you learn. It all matters on whether or not you choose to kill Rosh. This is more or less what happens in JK (choosing to kill or save Jan). However in JK the player has no direct choice in it. It is influenced by earlier decisions in the game.

 

I personally prefer the prior method than the latter. Now with that said, that involves MUCH more code. Shamus may be able to contradict me, but the way I see it, you will need to devise, from scratch, a system for recording the actions of a player. First you decide how extensive you want the rating system to work. Then you need to set out a score for each component. Below I present a rough scale just as an example. I am basing this scale off the West End Games version of SWRPG. In it, it states how the life of the Jedi is a hard one, and dark side actions add up quickly.

Here's a rough example:

*Choosing to learn a light side power: +1

*Choosing to learn a dark side power: -2

*Choosing to use a Light side power: +10 per force pool point

*Choosing to use a Dark Side power: -20 per force pool point

*Death of an innocent (either inflicted by player or hostile NPC): -100

*Avoiding hostile confrontation: +100 (Using mind trick or just sneaking by)

*Killing a hostile in self defense: +5 (i.e. killing a hostile npc who will attack you otherwise)

*Killing an unarmed/defenseless hostile: -50 (melee doesn't count as defenseless. Only NPCs that you pulled weapons away from, and who do not attack with melee, or enemies who you used mind trick on while it is still in effect.)

 

Of course, use whatever rating scale you want. Then comes the data storage. I'm not sure it is of any use to put this in the save game file itself, or how stable it will be (jasp.exe might look at that and ask 01010111 01010100 01000110 00111111 00100001). It is easiest to store the data in an external text file (kind of like the .npc files, or .veh files). When the game starts, the morality score = 0. While the player is still numb to the force, the score remains 0. That way any actions are not considered. When the story later introduces force sensitivity (I think it's when Kyle goes to Sulon, but I could be mistaken), the morality scale begins to count.

 

Finally, when all the points are tallied, a force alignment is decided. This happens after Kyle kills Maw. He confronts Jerec who holds Jan hostage. This is when Kyle chooses light or dark side. This requires simple IF...THEN code. However you need to decide exactly what score = light or dark. You will need to base it on your chosen conditions. If you have 300 hostile NPCs, and follow my proposed scale system, then there are 1,500 possible points to earn from killing a hostile NPC in self defense. Since the player is likely to intend on killing all hostile NPCs, I'd start there. Since most people who play would want to be a good jedi, plan on accounting for light side force selection & usage. I'd guess an absolutely perfect score would be anything higher than 2500 points. What you need to do then is set a minimum threshold for force alignment. You want it to be something fairly achievable, but still challenging. I'd guess something like 500 points. 499 = turning to the dark side and 500 = turning to the light side. This can be challenging considering how many times it is tempting to use dark side powers, or how easy it can be to fail to protect innocent NPCs from hostile NPCs.

 

If you choose to go this route, you guys need to decide how feasible this is. If you just want to do it the JA way, then that's fine. My recommendation is that you put this thing on your list of "like to do's" and come back to that when you fulfill your list of "need to do's." Otherwise, you can just write the mod in the Dark Forces canonical way, and only include the Light Side storyline. DF canon does not accept the dark side ending (otherwise there'd be no MOTS, JO, or JA).

 

Just a few things for you guys to think over. We can discuss this more on my forum if you'd like.

[Kurgan]

The morality scale in JK1 did base heavily on your choice of powers, however, it visibly moved from light towards Dark every time you killed a civilian NPC. It actually moved from Dark towards light slightly every time you "saved" an NPC that was being attacked by an enemy (certain NPC's). Ie: kill the attack before the NPC dies (though I'm not sure if they died later it still counted or not).

 

However at least when I did it, you could kill every NPC in the game and it wouldn't quite be enough to push you from pure light to pure dark. But maybe I didn't quite accomplish it. If it is possible, it's difficult. However I think in order to earn ALL the lightside powers in SP you had to be "true to the light side" which meant you could only kill very few NPC's, if any, because otherwise by that point you wouldn't be so close to pure light. And to get the opposite (on darkside) you'd have to kill at least a few npc's in order to get all the way in that direction.

 

So it would probably need to be a coded thing seperate from all other considerations. If you have a certain number of "dark side points" by a certain point in the game, you can choose those higher powers (if not, you don't get to choose them), and vice versa for lightside with "light side points." You can examine the scripting/cog for JK1 in order to see this, it should be well documented.

 

The only other act in the game that really gives you a lot of darkside points that I recall (choosing a darkside power is probably equivalent to deliberately killing 5 civilian npc's), was killing WeeGee, the family droid.

It was really hard to do (took a long time since he had a lot of health) and you had to be careful because he "explodes" when he dies which does a TON of damage if you're close to him. If you do it Rahn says "For you the choice is the Dark Side." Though you're not all the way over that I recall, you get a ton of dark side points if you survive.'

 

 

In MotS there really was no morality scale (forced to be "light side" and all powers are just "Gray"), you just got your mana drained to nothing if you killed a civilian NPC (though if you force pushed them against a wall or off a cliff it didn't count! oops).