PR-0927 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 *Tries to remain unviolent and calm.* O.K. I am a noob modder. More like a remaker. If you haven't see my mods at http://www.pcgamemods.com you should. Better yet go to http://www.lucasfiles.com because the AOTCTC disabled my mods. Here is where the problem starts: I created and released a "Dark Jedi Starfighter," an inverted color Jedi Starfighter--that was made by Aaron Smith--with numerous tweaks. I also created another version of the Republic Gunship that was made by Mars Marshall. My Republic Gunship is definitely a bit better. It now shoots lasers and missiles. All was merry and happy, cause people were downloading them like crazy. I had 66 downloads for my Republic Gunship. Here is the problem: DarkLord66 came along from the AOTCTC and said,"I am co-team leader of AotcTC and we own this model you have no right to modify it without permission I am going to have to request that it will be taken down." Well, not just my Republic Gunship, but my Dark Jedi Starfighter Version 2 was disabled also. Here are my arguments: 1. The AotCTC did not create the Republic Gunship or Jedi Starfighter. I don't care if they are using them, the didn't create it!! 2. Mars Marshall created the Republic Gunship and he is MIA. Aaron Smith created the Jedi Starfighter. I gave proper credit to them. But, in the revised rules of http://www.pcgamemods.com, you do not have to get permission. 3. Even if I needed to get permission and I didn't, mods are to be used and modded around with, right? 4. The AotCTC could certainly use my Republic Gunship for themselves. I would be honored to let them. It is, you have to admit, a bit better than Mars Marshall's. 5. Other websites like http://www.jedimoves.com and http://www.lucasfiles.com and http://www.pcgamemods.com itself have the Jedi Starfighter and Republic Gunship. Why didn't the AotCTC get upset about it everywhere else? 6. Before my "Dark Jedi Starfighter," there was a "Sith Starfighter. Just a reskinned Jedi Starfighter. Why wasn't that one disabled? It was made by a guy named Sokar. Please, if you would like to support me, post the following: Name: E-mail: (Optional) Reason to support majinrevan: If you post here, then I will send many e-mails to the AotCTC with the posts as a petition and pray that they see that they are wrong. If you think I just want to give the AotCTC trouble, think again. I fully supported the AotCTC until now. I am excited about it. So, please post here to support me. Oh, and if you want my mods, go to http://www.lucasfiles.com. They have all four of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinny Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 what's your aim sn or e-mail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PR-0927 Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 My AIM is majinfedprez. My e-mail address is dbzpkr@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsey Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I think they could be a bit looser about their models too, you have my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PR-0927 Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 Yes, I agree. Also, thank you for the support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sora Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I had and have a user name at AOTCTC but i dont think ill use it anymore. I say if you remade the mods better and had pemission and or didnt need it AOTCTC was probally just jealous of your work. give them hell too from me and you. my email is Himelement92@aol.com. good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinny Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 man, that is ridiculous. if the modding community is sliding into something corporate where other people's works can be taken and then "copyrighted" to be affiliated with something else, that is just bad bad news. you have my support bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PR-0927 Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 Please, some more support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 You most definately have MY support. Mars didn't request the disabling, so they can't disable it. But it he does, I'm outta the picture :'-(. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 You most definately have MY support. Mars didn't request the disabling, so they can't disable it. But if he does, I'm outta the picture :'-(. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Wow I keep getting double posts lately... hmmm... I say we rerelease loads of modded aotctc stuff to pcgamemods. that would be funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothiX Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Mars gave these files to AOTCTC. Therefore, they DO have rights over these files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Here are my rebukes: Originally posted by majinrevan 1. The AotCTC did not create the Republic Gunship or Jedi Starfighter. I don't care if they are using them, the didn't create it!! Incorrect. Mars Marshall is a staff member at AotCTC, and these vehicles were created for their mod. Hence, they belong to AotCTC (and Mars). 2. Mars Marshall created the Republic Gunship and he is MIA. Aaron Smith created the Jedi Starfighter. I gave proper credit to them. But, in the revised rules of http://www.pcgamemods.com, you do not have to get permission. You did give proper credit to them. And we don't require permission. However, if the original author(s) request that your "remake" not be hosted by PCGM, I will comply. We respect the rights of the original authors as opposed to those who are "remaking" it. 3. Even if I needed to get permission and I didn't, mods are to be used and modded around with, right? Used, yes. Modded around with, sure - but for your own use. It'd be like if you made a piece of art and mass produced it, then someone took your art and changed some things about it (maybe in a way you didn't like) then tried to release it as theirs, how would you feel? Upset? Angry? Distraught? Why should ethics on the internet be any different than in real life? You don't steal from people you see on the street (I would hope) so why do it here? 4. The AotCTC could certainly use my Republic Gunship for themselves. I would be honored to let them. It is, you have to admit, a bit better than Mars Marshall's. You didn't do anything they couldn't have done themselves. And as you haven't retextured it or remodeled it, I fail to see how it is an improvement upon the original work. 5. Other websites like http://www.jedimoves.com and http://www.lucasfiles.com and http://www.pcgamemods.com itself have the Jedi Starfighter and Republic Gunship. Why didn't the AotCTC get upset about it everywhere else? If other websites want to host your file, take it there. But as I said before, on PCGM we respect the rights of the original author(s). As for the second question, I can't answer that - only AotCTC can, so if you're looking for an answer I suggest you talk to them. 6. Before my "Dark Jedi Starfighter," there was a "Sith Starfighter. Just a reskinned Jedi Starfighter. Why wasn't that one disabled? It was made by a guy named Sokar. Again, you'd have to talk with AotCTC to get that answered. In closing, AotCTC has the right to not have their files modified - whether other file sites will respect that right or not is up to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PR-0927 Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Eldritch Here are my rebukes: You didn't do anything they couldn't have done themselves. And as you haven't retextured it or remodeled it, I fail to see how it is an improvement upon the original work. Umm, I did sorta kinda add lasers, improve shielding, change sounds, improve speed, improve damage, change rockets to homing concussion missiles--the AotCTC could've done it, certainly, but what counts is, that they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 AOTC:TC doesn't want you editing their stuff, 'nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa_0 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 You have my support for your creations. And I would like to reffer to another situation similar to this. the Tyrion model made by Bloodriot. He hasnt been seen for a long time and people still make skins from that model. And they have clearly stated the same thing as AotC TC has: "Note: Bloodriot and Absath have asked that you do not reskin this model or make an SP mod of it as they have plans for this model in the future." That statement was made in the release of the model in June 2002 and as I said before theres a good number of Tyrion reskins on the net. Yes maybe Mars is apart of AotC TC, but he submitted them knowning what would happen. Also I believe AotC TC has not went through any legal processes to protect their work. But I think if they did something like that Raven would get on to them and maybe close their work down. I say their policies are corrupt and should be changed for the good of the gaming community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sora Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 hey just a question majinrevan. after you get alot of support what do you plan on doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Zappa_0 the Tyrion model made by Bloodriot. He hasnt been seen for a long time and people still make skins from that model. And they have clearly stated the same thing as AotC TC has: "Note: Bloodriot and Absath have asked that you do not reskin this model or make an SP mod of it as they have plans for this model in the future." That statement was made in the release of the model in June 2002 and as I said before theres a good number of Tyrion reskins on the net. And if Tim "Absath" Buckley ever shows up at PCGM and requests that any reskin based on his and Bloodriot's Tyrion model is disabled or removed, I will comply. Yes maybe Mars is apart of AotC TC, but he submitted them knowning what would happen. Also I believe AotC TC has not went through any legal processes to protect their work. They don't have to - in the US, you are granted copyright the minute you make your work tangible (i.e. more than just an idea). To be able to sue someone for using your work inappropriately you must be registered, but the copyright is still yours. If you don't believe me, I strongly urge you to check out some copyright law books. "Knowing what would happen" - now that's funny. You would think that someone who invested there personal time into something would be given a bit more respect from the community that benefits from their labors. Instead, you just say, "Well, they should've known that we would steal their work, alter it (sometimes badly), and submit it as our own." This attitude makes me sick. Do you use a pirated copy of JA as well, Zappa? But I think if they did something like that Raven would get on to them and maybe close their work down. I say their policies are corrupt and should be changed for the good of the gaming community. That's not true - Raven couldn't do anything, because they are not distributing anything belonging to Raven, and thus are in full compliance with the copyright agreement. However, the company that could do something belongs to George Lucas. Lucasarts (and their parent companies) hold the copyrights to the characters, vehicles, etc that have been created for the use of the AotCTC mod. And nothing short of their intervention could forcibly shut the AotCTC mod down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa_0 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 To answer your questions Eldritch, I own a full version 2 disc CD game that I preordered straight from LucasArts. I take it that you hate all reskins of stuff? Well if it wasnt for those people to make skins their wouldnt be a big JO/JA editing community. I was using Tyrion as an example to Mars' work because they are both MIA. What harm is a few reskins gonna do? Huh answer that. And you say "You would think that someone who invested there personal time into something would be given a bit more respect from the community that benefits from their labors." They are some great skinners out there, sometimes they make it look better or give a certain thing a better look. And I dont like you trying to put words in my mouth. Please dont do that. I only started posting in this thread because of AotC TC's extreme behavior that is not needed when people wants to use the stuff they make, which hasnt been much. And as for the Jedi Starfighter, ive read the read me and nothing says that it cannot be reskinned. So you need to re-enable his JSF skin and other JSF skins, unless you have a better reason not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Zappa_0 To answer your questions Eldritch, I own a full version 2 disc CD game that I preordered straight from LucasArts. I take it that you hate all reskins of stuff? No, sometimes authors of reskins do a good job - I only consider it a problem when the original author isn't given any credit at all. Well if it wasnt for those people to make skins their wouldnt be a big JO/JA editing community. But there are certainly many people in the community who should probably stop recoloring other people's work. I was using Tyrion as an example to Mars' work because they are both MIA. What harm is a few reskins gonna do? Huh answer that. You wouldn't understand, Zappa. If you had ever invested time in a product and then had someone take it from you, change something, and submit it as their own without crediting you you'd be singing a different tune, especially if it made your hard work look like crap. And you say "You would think that someone who invested there personal time into something would be given a bit more respect from the community that benefits from their labors." They are some great skinners out there, sometimes they make it look better or give a certain thing a better look. I've already said that sometimes these skinners do make it look better. The thing is, normally the ones who make it look better are the ones who give credit where credit is due. The ones that recolor it or superimpose clan tags all over the skin typically do not give credit to the original author. However, if they did, I don't care what they do with the skin (unless the original author shows up and requests that it is removed). And I dont like you trying to put words in my mouth. Please dont do that. I only started posting in this thread because of AotC TC's extreme behavior that is not needed when people wants to use the stuff they make, which hasnt been much. They have the right to be as extreme as they want. Not everyone is as lax as you in the ethics department, and they only want to protect their work. Another thing that happens when multiple versions of the same file is released by different authors is that people become confused as to who the original author is. As a result, you'll get some 2nd and 3rd generation reskins that don't credit the original author. And as for the Jedi Starfighter, ive read the read me and nothing says that it cannot be reskinned. So you need to re-enable his JSF skin and other JSF skins, unless you have a better reason not to. As I've already stated in an earlier post, AotCTC has contacted me about disabling the file. If you have a problem with it being disabled, I suggest you talk to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 First off, I apologize for what is going to be a long post, and restate things that have been posted by others Originally posted by majinrevan 1. The AotCTC did not create the Republic Gunship or Jedi Starfighter. I don't care if they are using them, the didn't create it!! It does not matter. The creator either created the work for the project, which is an employer/employee relationship where the copyright is owned by the employer (AOTCTC), or the creator transfered thier copyright to a new owner. In any event AOTC (and Lucasarts) does own the mod. You do not, and this have no right to alter their work without their permission. Originally posted by majinrevan 3. Even if I needed to get permission and I didn't, mods are to be used and modded around with, right? Half right. They are to be used. Not moddified. Just like you have no right to alter a book or song and release it for public consumption. Originally posted by majinrevan 4. The AotCTC could certainly use my Republic Gunship for themselves. I would be honored to let them. It is, you have to admit, a bit better than Mars Marshall's. Irrelevant. It could be the best thing ever. It doesn't, in any way, give you the right to do it. Originally posted by majinrevan Please, if you would like to support me, post the following: People can post their support all they want. It doesn't change the law. Originally posted by majinrevan If you post here, then I will send many e-mails to the AotCTC with the posts as a petition and pray that they see that they are wrong. But they are not wrong. You are wrong Originally posted by Tinny man, that is ridiculous. if the modding community is sliding into something corporate where other people's works can be taken and then "copyrighted" to be affiliated with something else, that is just bad bad news. Copyright law has nothing to do with corporations. Actually, copyright law is designed to protect the individual against corporations What Mars and AOTCTC has done is perfectly within their right under copyright law. People should be allowed to protect their work without others taking advantage of them. Originally posted by majinrevan Umm, I did sorta kinda add lasers, improve shielding, change sounds, improve speed, improve damage, change rockets to homing concussion missiles--the AotCTC could've done it, certainly, but what counts is, that they didn't. Irrelavent. Since you do not have permission to use this mod as the basis for your mod, why not just create your own? They only own the copyright for their own implementation. If you made your own models, you could mod and tweek them as you saw fit. You would own everything, and if you wanted others to recolour them or whatever, you could give permission to do so. Originally posted by Zappa_0 "Note: Bloodriot and Absath have asked that you do not reskin this model or make an SP mod of it as they have plans for this model in the future." That statement was made in the release of the model in June 2002 and as I said before theres a good number of Tyrion reskins on the net. And those reskins are violating the copyright. Bloodriot and Absath have just chosen to not enforce that copyright. AOTCTC has chosen to enforce theirs. Originally posted by Zappa_0 Yes maybe Mars is apart of AotC TC, but he submitted them knowning what would happen. Also I believe AotC TC has not went through any legal processes to protect their work. I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you implying that AOTCTC had to go through some legal steps to get the copyright? Or are you saying they haven't gone through legal steps to protect that copyright? In the former, since the work was done for AOTCTC they own the copyright automatically, and don't have to go through any steps to achieve that. If you mean the latter, that is certainly within their right. But instead they have chosen to just ask that the mod be taken down. PCGAMEMODS has complied. Originally posted by Zappa_0 But I think if they did something like that Raven would get on to them and maybe close their work down. I say their policies are corrupt and should be changed for the good of the gaming community. Just to clarify, it is Lucasarts that might get on them, as they own the copyright for Raven's work In any event, the EULA that we all agreed to when we installed and played the game states that... "Rules Governing New Levels: "New Levels" are data that modify, add to, or substitute for data in the Software, thus modifying, adding to, or replacing levels provided by LucasArts in the Software, and may also include saved games, and scenarios created using the skirmish features of the Software. New Levels may be permitted by LucasArts, in its sole discretion, on the following conditions. You agree that the following conditions apply to your creation of any New Levels: (7) By distributing or permitting the distribution of any New Levels, all creators or owners of any trademark, copyright, or other right, title or interest therein grant to LucasArts an irrevocable, perpetual, royalty-free, sublicensable right to distribute or exploit the New Level by any means or media (whether now known or hereafter invented), and to create and distribute by any means or media (whether now known or hereafter invented) derivative works thereof, and to charge for the distribution of such New Level or such derivative work, with no obligation to account to any creators or owners of the New Level in any manner." Lucasarts recognizes that the creators and owners of mods own the copyright for their work. So they have no problem with AOTCTC enforcing their copyright for this mod. What the EULA garuntees is that Lucasarts can use these mods in any way they see fit without permission from the author. Also, modders give them the right to stop them from producing such mods: "(8) LucasArts may revoke your right or permission to use, distribute or make New Levels at any time and in its sole discretion." So AOTCTC and Lucasarts policies are not not corrupt because what they are doing is well within the rights granted to them by copyright law and the game's EULA. What is "corrupt" is modifying a copyrighted work without permission from the copyright owner. This will always be against the law. I think you'll agree that any creative works that are prevented due to copyright law may unfortunately be lost, but it is necessary so that creative people can protect their work. If majinrevan really wants to modify a Jedi starfighter or gunship, he can make is own. This way, copyrights are protected and his work gets released, and so nothing is lost. Originally posted by Zappa_0 I only started posting in this thread because of AotC TC's extreme behavior that is not needed when people wants to use the stuff they make, which hasnt been much. AOTCTC behavior has not been, by any stretch, extreme. People can want to modify things all they want, it doesn't mean they have the right to do so without permission. Certainly the vast majority of mod author's (like me ) give permission to use their work in other mods. So I don't think we are in any danger of stiffling the creative work in the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I've already said that sometimes these skinners do make it look better. The thing is, normally the ones who make it look better are the ones who give credit where credit is due. The ones that recolor it or superimpose clan tags all over the skin typically do not give credit to the original author. However, if they did, I don't care what they do with the skin (unless the original author shows up and requests that it is removed). Original Author : Mars Marshall (NOT AotCTC) Mars hasn't requested the disabling of any files as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Although I agree that since Mars made it for AotCTC, and they do sort of share ownership with him, according to the rules of pcgamemods, they still don't have the right to disable it. Only Mars does. If that rule allowed them to disable it, I wouldn't be in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Eldritch Mars Marshall is a staff member at AotCTC, and these vehicles were created for their mod. Hence, they belong to AotCTC (and Mars). Mars made the mod for AOTCTC, and as such transfered copyright ownership to the owners of that project (of which he is a part). Since they do own the copyright, they have the right to demand that others not modify it That being said, would people be more inclined to comply with this request if Mars himself makes it? Not that that changes anything from a legal standpoint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Ture that they do own the copyright, but the rules of pcgamemods say only the original author can have the file disabled. That doesn't make them the original author. And if Mars rquested that the files be disabled, I'd be gone in a flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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