Unit Massing

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

3. THE SYSTEM ISNT ANY DIFFERENT! All it does is split up mech and infantry pop slots, which is purely cosmetic. 100 Stormtroopers may be less powerful than 10 AT-AT's, but they are a lot cheaper, more versatile and can easily defend themselves whereas AT-AT's are incredibly expensive and need other units to cover their flanks and rear.

 

No. Having a seperate pop system means less total mechs. Let's say that you have a max total of 30 mech pop. An AT-AT would then cost about 4-6 pop which means about 5 or 6 AT-ATs whereas with a total of 200 pop, with AT-ATs costing 8 pop each, you can have a grand total of 25 AT-ATs.

 

Note that your flanking ideas are NOT fit for an RTS with ressource gatherings and a little bit of micro. It would have to be incredibly slow paced.

A game that does well flanking and other terrain changes is Ground Control 2 and although it has a few RTS elements, there is absolutely no econ management. For you to totally focus on flanking bonuses etc. you'll need to totally forget econ.

[FroZticles]

Luke its basically the same sytem they just took 5 more mins to have unit classes capped instead of just units in general cap.

[Darth Windu]

luke - all you do then is make the AT-AT worth more pop slots and you have the same effect. As i said, the system isnt any different.

 

As for flanking, i think you have the wrong idea. My AT-AT's are slow, heavily armoured and armed. However, due to their speed it takes a while for them to turn around, and they only have a small forward arc over which they can fire their weapons. Therefore, they cannot engage targets either behind or to the side of them unless they turn around, which take a while, as i said. Ergo, you must have escorts for them.

[Admiral Vostok]

1. Epic means large, not lots of infantry. Aside from that, as i said, in my system there would likely be lots of infantry because they are so versatile and can hide from mechs in forests.

Epic means large numbers, and hundreds of troopers is more than 50 AT-ATs. More importantly, I'm not talking about what is likely. I'm talking about what is possible. In SWGB, it is likely that a decent player will utilise Troopers. But it is also possible for a player to mass a particular type of unit and not use infantry at all. I take myself as an example, with my massed Naboo Fighters and Bombers. Game makers have every intention that players will play the game realistically, but the fact is if an unrealistic mode of play gives you an edge, people will do it. As another example, let's take the use of prefab shelters as cheap walls - unrealistic but an excellent tactic, used widely because the game makers didn't specifically prohibit it.

2. Please show me the spot in ESB where it is said that the Executor only carries 5 AT-AT's? Lets look at this logically, that ship is massive, and could easily hold 50 of the things, if not more.

Please show me the spot in ESB where it said the Executor carries more than 5 AT-ATs. Let's look at this logically, if General Veers is on the Executor, and Vader tells him to prepare his men, and Veers just saw Vader kill Ozzel, do you think Veers is going to say "Well Vader's pretty pissed off right now, but I still think I'll only take a tenth of the total forces at my disposal for no particular reason."

3. THE SYSTEM ISNT ANY DIFFERENT! All it does is split up mech and infantry pop slots, which is purely cosmetic.

No, let me explain again. By the old method of things, you can have an unrealistic army composed entirely of Mechs. It might not be that great in battle, but you are still allowed to build it. And as I said before, if people possibly can build it they will. By the new method, it is not possible to have an army composed entirely of Mechs.

 

Let me use SWGB as an example. When was the last time you saw a Trade Federation player use lots and lots of Battle Droids? The Trade Federation in the movies had hundreds of Battle Droids, but they suck so much in SWGB there are better things you can spend your cash on, like Strike Mechs and Droidekas. With this new system, a Trade Federation player would have to take at least some amount of Battle Droids to battle, improving the realism a lot.

[saberhagen]

This is really a balancing issue. If the balancing is right then you can subtly persuade people to use the "realistic" combinations. I don't think it's a good idea to tie people's hands and force them to use a particular combination of units. They'll just get bored and stop playing.

[Darth Windu]

I agree with Saber, this is a balancing issue.

 

Also, Vostok, you should be ashamed of yourself. First of all, there is NOTHING in the film to say there were only 5 AT-AT's on Executor. As i said before, look at the ship, it is so massive it could easily take more than 5. As for why Veers wouldnt take more than that, we dont know he didnt (coz we dont see them doesnt mean they arent there), and also more AT-AT's would have meant more time for the Rebels to get away, plus they knew that their walkers were invulnerable to Rebel blasters, they just didnt know about the speeder tow-cables.

[Admiral Vostok]

On topic:

Well maybe set limits aren't the best way to do things, but I still maintain separate limits is the way to go. You'd build separate prefab-shelter-like things for infantry and support, and the shelters that provide support population would be more expensive. This way, it could be possible to build mass mechs, but economically not the best idea. This would create more freedom, but strongly encourage realistic play at the same time.

 

Off topic:

The primary weapon of the Empire is fear. That's why they built the Death Star. Do they really need to blow up entire planets? No, but the fact they have the power to inspires fear, which is even more powerful. It doesn't matter that five AT-ATs would get the job done, ten AT-ATs is way more fear-inspiring, let alone fifty. If the Executor had more AT-ATs, it probably would have used them.

 

On a more personal note Windu, I fail to see how I should be ashamed when my Purism binds me to what we see in the movies, whereas your "Purism" doesn't. If I'm Lord of the Purists, you truly are the Dark Lord as your title says, as you seem to practice a more perverted and seductive study of Purism.

[FroZticles]

Windu a Dark Lord ROFL...

[Darth Windu]

Vstok-

On-topic: that is a terrible idea. Not only does it add another un-needed building, it also increases micfromanagement, which is un-needed and un-wanted.

 

Off-topic: correct. That is why AT-AT's have such long legs and little weapons arc - they are primarily assault guns that are meant to be seen far away but be invincible, as we saw when Luke said that the blasters werent having any effect on them. Ergo, you are making completely unwarrented assumptions about the Executor and AT-AT's that are not backed up by the films. As i was saying before-

 

- due to the size of the Executor, it could probably hold hundreds of AT-AT's

- just because we saw 5 doesnt mean there werent other AT-AT's at other points

- the main object of the assault was to destroy the Shield Generator, nothing more, and as the Rebels were aware of the Imperial Fleet, it needed to be fast

- the AT-AT's were thought to be invincible, and in the end were only brought down by the tow cables on the Speeder's

 

All of that is the complete reverse of what you have been saying. Generally, i dont know how many AT-AT's the Executor could hold, and neither do you, so stop coming out with false facts to try to make yourself look like a bigshot.

[FroZticles]

I went over my cousins's house who is an absolute Star Wars fanatic and collects issues of Star Wars fact file. I was looking through his 1,000's of facts and came across The EXECUTOR. So I read it because we were on topic about it and it said.....

 

Eight kilometers long, with the standard crew of this class was 279,144 personnel (officers ect) 144 tie fighters, other combat and support craft 200, a force of All terrain armoured transports and scout walkers. 38,000 storm troopers. 250,000 tonnes of material in addition to six years worth of consumables and supplies for 300,000 crew members.

 

So it didn't really help but since I consider EU as much as Star Wars as the movies are I would say there are more. As for hundreds I think thats going a bit over board considering the size and other weapons and ships it carries.

 

Windu your the worst "purist" ever, considering you trashed all my points when I defended myself with EU yet you back your stuff up with EU all the time.

[Darth Windu]

I doubt there would be hundered of AT-AT's - but the point is we don't know.

 

As for purism, i actually own around 30 SW books and am currently reading 'Tales from the Empire'. Nontheless, EU is meerly a 'back-up' for the films at best, and as we have seen actually contradicts the films on numerous occasions, such as the Death Star design and the fate of Boba Fett. Backing up point with EU is fine, but just because something is EU doesnt make it right nor does it make it 'official' - only the films are that.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay Windu, maybe there were more AT-ATs on the Executor... why would they only use five? Since Hoth was the largest land battle of the Civil War, it seems strange that the Empire would waste money on building lots of AT-ATs when they don't use them.

 

But I'm willing to concede I may be wrong on this point. But the more important issue isn't how many numbers they could possibly bring to bear, but how many they actually do.

 

Let's look at the Battle of Geonosis, the most massive ground battle in the entire Star Wars saga. In that battle there were at least 100,000 Clone Troopers, assuming the Republic only deployed half their force... there could easily have been the whole 200,000 there. But there were only at most 20 AT-TEs and a half a dozen SPHA-Ts. Now I'm not asking for those kind of ratios, that would be silly, but there should be some sort of method to restrict non-infantry units.

 

I concede to your point about the annoyance of the extra building and extra micro. So how about this new idea: Workers and Infantry do not count towards the population limit, only support units do.

 

Before you become outraged at such a proposition, remember that all of the Command and Conquer titles have never had a population limit. While there is a cap built in to the game, players rarely if ever reach it. C&C Games keep a limit on the number of buildings (through power) rather than the number of units. Perhaps, since a Star Wars title would probably also have power as a feature, the same basic analogy could be used, except that population is needed to build support units.

 

Well I'd best prepare myself for the inevitable barrage of outraged cries with this idea...

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - with, with the AT-AT's i think the more interesting question is how did the Empire get them on Hoth? The Lander in Ep4 and the Lambda shuttles are too small, and Star Destroyers probably couldnt enter the atmosphere...

 

Getting back on topic, its not only workers but the extra buildings that would be a problem. I also fail to see how exlcuding workers from the pop cap would be helpful. All this would mean is that once a player hits the pop cap, they build hords of workers to attack first, drawing enemy fire while their combat units move in.

Actually, thinking about this, i have an idea. We could make infantry a bit less powerful and, keeping the pop slots (ie stormy worth 1, AT-AT worth 8) make them like the 'angry mob' from 'Generals' - that would pretty much keep balance while providing swarms of infantry - just a thought.

[saberhagen]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Let's look at the Battle of Geonosis, the most massive ground battle in the entire Star Wars saga. In that battle there were at least 100,000 Clone Troopers, assuming the Republic only deployed half their force... there could easily have been the whole 200,000 there.

 

But I don't think we actually saw 100,000 clone troopers in the shots of Geonosis. The point I made before is that films can't and shouldn't show everything.

[Cavkov]

Massing is not good... why?

ehrmm Air Cruisers

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by Igor_Cavkov

Massing is not good... why?

Because massed AT-ATs are not what we see in the movies.

 

Windu, I'm not sure you entirely understood me. Both Workers AND Infantry would be excluded from the pop cap. This would get rid of the problem of extra buildings, because the prefab shelters you build are only necessary for support units, not infantry. So forget my two-pop-limit idea, instead we just have one pop limit, but workers and infantry do not count towards it.

 

And the simple way to avoid a horde of angry workers is to not give them an attack, which is how I think things should be.

[Cavkov]

Ehrmmm if you guys complain that the game is not like in the movie.. and that its to many ATAT's in battle what the hell are u talking about no game is like the movies?? and who said this fits in the story line and therefore it doesnt have to be as the movies!?? :S its a strategic game.. the only thing u can complain are the campains couse they follow the SW time line .. but i cant remember 30ATATs there?? so STOP talking ****! no one said the game must be as in the movies?? :S

the game is fine.. if u dont like the games pop limit then creat a scenario for multi playing.. and make it like in the movies so everyone are happy!!! //Cav

[FroZticles]

They are talking about what they would like to see in the next Star Wars RTS. Read before you type all this crap. The game is fine but it could be better.....

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - i still dont see how exlucing infantry from the pocap would be helpful. think that what is really needed is for infantry to be more useful, and so people will use them more. Besides, in my template, that would give the Rebels a big advantage because they dont use mechs.

[Admiral Vostok]

They might not have Mechs but they do have the largest variety of Air, which would also count towards the pop cap.

 

Infantry can be made to be useful, but the fact they don't cost any population will make them even more attractive to take. No matter how good infantry are, there will still be those players who want to horde Mechs and Air. This method still allows those players to do so, but hording infantry is a much better idea.

[Puzzlebox]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

I agree, although I am the Naboo player in question, that swarms of Naboo fighters just do not correlate with the Star Wars universe. As for the Rebels I don't see them being much of a problem, as we saw at Hoth they can have masses of troops and Endor showed us swarms of air units also work for the Rebels.

 

Perhaps the solution is that the Naboo don't really work as a playable civ if the game is meant to be epic in scope. The four galactic powers (Empire, Rebels, Republic, Confederacy) work fine with massed units though.

 

Certainly if the scale was reduce to make Naboo numbers realistic, the numbers of these four would be unrealistic.

 

 

I wonder how good they bioware, putting Kotor material in would be nice. As to the numbers the movies themselves were not realistic. There would be billions of soldiers and thousands of star ships, obviously it's good it wasn't realistic but to get to the nixing of naboo and gungans I completely agree. They should be accessible in the editor and playable through the edior or some other set of options, but not meant to compare to the massive factions.

 

Hey lukei, you ever try three

 

Edit

Simple solution for the problem guys, let the host pick if there is a cap on mechs or other such minutia and perhaps what the cap is in the pre-game menu screen, Tada no worries in making a major screw up and you can say hey, we have plenty of options to enrich gameplay blah blah blah.

[Majin Boba Fett]

Unit Massing = Bad

[Nairb Notneb]

Sometimes it is fun to mass aircruisers and rain down on somebodies parde so to speak!!!

[Majin Boba Fett]

A prime example of why Unit Massing = Bad.

[Admiral Vostok]

All this talk of massing air cruisers... has anyone ever done it? I just can't see it working at all... way too many resources spent for virtually no return. The only way massed Air Cruisers would beat an opponent is if they're completely incompetent, in which case you could have beat them with massed Troopers anyway.