Psychology/Dream Interpretation thread

[JofaGuht]

So perhaps this topic is a tad heavy for this forum, but let us discuss of things. I know a little bit (my grandfather is a psychoanalyst, not to mention being raised on David Lynch mind****s) but it will be hard to start a good discussion without a specific topic to put up out there first so here's mine:

 

Freud. This comes up cause I was recently watching a program on the history channel about cocaine, and I learned that Freud, before really discovering the rules of psychoanalysis, believed cocaine was a miracle drug that could cure depression and other disorders. After a while when cocaine wasn't considered "good" anymore (the nation believing it caused African-American violence) people realized that Freud's miracle drug was phony, and, after an addiction, Freud moved to Paris.

 

Now this was back when everybody believed medicine was the cure for everything. After Freud realized actually most medicines are bull****, Paris was where he discovered the rules that psychology follows today and writing all those books and curing more people than the methods that everybody used did.

 

Now relating this topic for the present day, it still seems like true psychology isn't as accepted as just handing people drugs (especially kids, because the board of education recommends they be on those drugs). If you guys haven't heard of Paxil, that's an anti-depressant that's been around for three years or so and the FDA just noticed the danger of it. Severely addictive that causes extreme violent withdrawals (there have been stories of people murdering their family when taken off this drug) and still can't get people off by lowering the dosage step-by-step. Though most prescription drugs may not be as bad as this, it's still stupid how easily this stuff is handed out and how oblivious the physicians are. I used to have a friend that was a "cutter" who went to all kinds of the doctors who ask what's wrong than throw pills at you. It's sad.

 

Anyway, I know I just stated a lot of ideas at once, but let us discuss psychology, no? I could zone off right now and start talking about the human condition and stuff, but I'll wind up just rambling.

[Ray Jones]

my mind is strong. creep. bwahaha.

[Alien426]

Yay for psychology.

 

I always advocate doing a little psychology on yourself. Question why you do something, why you react the way you do... You may discover that a lot of the stuff that's in people's heads has been stuck there since childhood and has never changed.

 

This may not be the best example, but I've recently planned my holidays (or should I call it furlough?) and people go like: "Where you going?"

When I tell them I'm gonna stay at home, they seem to think that you can't recreate unless you're lying on a beach or hiking mountains. I'm 90% sure they will call me at the first sight of a problem, too. Like my holidays are less worthwhile because I stay at home.

[Joshi]

I generally don't need any psychology, I'm doing fine on my own, although i think it would be quite amusing to see what would happen should I meet one for councelling.

[Ray Jones]

i talked to one, not in a session, but y'know.. i talked to one.

 

for me those are open like a book. haha. .. i mean.. dont get me wrong, they are normal people to talk to.. until they "enter" this "special" mode. i dont like it very much and let them know very quickly. or sometimes not. playing the confuse-him-game is fun.

 

i weep for those who are not mental strong and (have to??) visit those err.. people? seriously.. you have a problem? come to me. problem solved within err.. the time you need to tell me plus the time i need to tell you that it doesnt matters anymore in uuhhhmmm... 10000 years or so, so why should you care now.. XD

[Alien426]

Who was talking about going to a shrink???

 

"»I'm just not happy. I'm just not happy. I'm just not happy, because my life didn't turn out the way I thought it would.« Hey, join the fucking club, OK!? I thought I was going to be the starting center fielder for the Boston Red Socks. Life sucks, get a fucking helmet, alright?!"

- Denis Leary, No Cure For Cancer

[SamNMax]

Heh. Yeah, I remember that bit.

[Dr Edison 007]

Yeah, everybody likes Dennis Leary.

 

And about dream interpretation there's an interesting thread in Yoda's Swamp by some guy who's pets die when he dreams about their death, if you care I suggest you see it.

[Joshi]

I would just love to one day mess up a psychiatrist. Like mess with their head so much that they just break down completely (deliberatly not making eye contacts is a good one, or making too much eye contact, with a really intense look is also pretty good, evil eyes are a must at points)

 

I just think it would be fun, then when they're lying urled up in a ball on the floor muttering to themselve, console them and make them feel better and then tell they their intensity harks back to their childhood and they must learn from the past and look to the future and forget all fears and anguish and so onand so forth until they feel better, then walk away with the nice satisfaction that you've made someone life that little bit better... after almost sending them right over the edge

[scabb]

Originally posted by JofaGuht

After Freud realized actually most medicines are bull****, Paris was where he discovered the rules that psychology follows today and writing all those books and curing more people than the methods that everybody used did.

 

Eh? Psychoanalysis is more or less considered nonsense by todays psychologists. It's unfalsifiable, unscientific, and what little evidence there is for it can generally be attributed elsewhere. Freud himself was actually a bit of a bastard and gathered all of his "scientific evidence" in a utterly, utterly bias manner. Take a look at the 'Dora' case study.

 

Most therapy nowadays is cognitive-behavioural or humanistic, which is generally a lot more popular and successful than psychoanalysis. I'm talking about NHS therapy for people who have actual neuroses, not psychotherapy for rich people. It should also be said that psychoanalysis contributes nothing to abnormal psychology, and can not help those with serious psychoses such as schizphrenia.

 

It's also silly to say that medicine doesn't help at all, as there are numerous drugs that effectively deal with things like depression and aren't as addictive as Paxil. Rational Emotive Therapy (from the cognitive-behavioural school) is equally succesfull at turning frowns upside down, although it's not nearly as cheap. Psychoanalysis, however, has

 

That's not to say that I don't like Freud. I like the ideas of dream-interpretation, the sub-conscious and free association. Nobody really knows why we sleep or dream. My favourite theory is that dreaming helps to organise the mind - studies have shown that people given complicated tasks to do all day show increased levels of rapid-eye movement than those given simple tasks to do. I've never really tried to find meaning in my dreams though, I don't tend to remember them well enough to do so.

[JofaGuht]

Though Freud's theory's have been innovated, it's still pretty much based on him originally (mostly because he was kind of the "there first" one. The rules have changed a lot, but they are still pretty much traced back to his). So yeah, maybe not completely followed, you're right about that.

 

But psychoanalysis was really one of the first methods in institutions and wasn't at all "psychotherapy for the rich". Those methods did actually do a lot for those in deep psychosis (though it really wasn't accepted at first since everybody though shock treatment did the trick) and weren't just the shrink type. Actually, it's institutions where you will find Freud is followed the most.

 

This next comment has nothing to do with psychology but I'm going to say it anyway since it is so awesome: I'm going to see Alice Cooper in concert tonight. AHHHHH!!!! YES!!!!!!! Sorry I just had to get that out.

[scabb]

I'm not sure what you mean.. psychology is based on Freud originally, or therapy? And his ideas have been innovated?

 

There are a few psychoanalyists who have gone on to "improve" Freud's theories, such as Erikson who went with Psychosocial stages of development rather than psychosexual and decided that "personality" can develop throughout a persons lifetime.

 

But Psychology itself has its roots in Philosophy - Plato, Aristotle and Descartes all looked at the mind. It 'began' as a Science in its own right in the late 19th century, when Willhelm Wundt set up a lab in Liepzig. This 'Structuralism' school of thought that revolved around introspection and reaction times never really caught on though.

 

Then there were the Psychoanalysis and Gestalt schools of thought, which rejected Structuralism. Freud in particular was immensely succesfull because he spoke about sex, which was very much taboo at the time - as such, psychoanalysis allowed for discussion regarding sexual repression in 'upper class' environments and became the first 'major' theory in psychology. It was also the first field to actually take a look at mental diseases, and although Freud wasn't very succesfull in treating them, he definitely stuck them out there for others to take a crack at.

 

A little later, Watson's Behaviourism took over as the dominant view, as it was much more scientific since behaviour was easily measured. Behaviourism has proved to be a lot more useful than Psychoanalysis, with learning theories such as classical and operant condition as well as social learning theory being put to work to reintegrate mentally sick people into society, to counter alcoholism, even to teach better.

 

Next up was Humanistic psychology; essentially an offshoot of Gestalt psychology, which rejected psychoanalysis & behaviourism as they were viewed as too cynical and deterministic. It became 'The Third Force' in Psychology, and was about helping people to "Self-actualise" through client-centred therapy. You know, where the therapist is nothing but nice, doesn't point out their clients flaws and tries to let them find their own flaws. Ideal self and incongruency, active listening and such - definitely popular terms to this day.

 

Finally, when the computer cropped up, so did the cognitive approach, which compares the mind to a computer and looks at 'faulty thinking' as the cause of depression.

 

 

Of all these approaches, Psychoanalysis has arguably contributed the least, especially when it comes to deep psychoses which are utterly unexplainable with Freudian psychoanalysis. Freud thought that schizophrenia was simply 'a disturbed unconscious' caused by homosexuality, and other psychoanalysts have claimed it was due to an evil mother (Come here and hug me! Thwack!!). Of course, it's a neurochemical imbalance that should be treated with drugs and conditioning for the sufferers - no amount of therapy helps in such cases.

 

As for therapy and contributions in general, well, Freud was the first Psychologist to highlight and explain neuroses and psychoses (Hysteria), as well as being the first to implement therapy techniques to try and 'cure' them. However, these explanations have all proved to be either inadequate or just plain wrong, and treatment for deep psychoses is just impossible. As far as neuroses are concerned, it's difficult to vouch how well psychoanalysis performs. Therapy is actually endless - well, bloody long anyway, requiring an average commitment of 5.3 years, which really stops it from being an adequate treatment for most. It has had some success in curing depression, but cognitive therapy is definitely the Daddy when it comes to getting rid of the blues. Besides, it's a catch 22, unfalsifiable situation - if you should drop out of therapy, then you didn't complete therapy and thus can't be counted - and therapy lasts as long as the Dr likes.

 

Of course, it has had significant contributions yada yada, inspired things here and there, but my point is that the more succesfull therapy techniques available today are not directly related to psychoanalysis.

 

Eeep, I wrote a lot. I'll shut up now ;

 

[edited a bit, for sense and spelling]

[JofaGuht]

No, I didn't say Freud invented psychology. He was just a major player. But I'm not really qualified to keep arguing because, though I know a lot of Freud's history and some theories, I'll have to actually read his books. I can get back to that later.

 

As for medications and things, I'm not saying the drugs are bad in themselves, but the mindlessness in which they are handed out. It's almost as mindless as diagnosing ADD....sorry that's a different subject.

 

But then again, I don't have to worry about all this psychobabble, because I've seen Alice Cooper preform, and that's all I need. Therefore, I have ascended to a higher plane than all of you and I don't have petty "life problems" to talk about, for I have been in a Rock God's presence.

[Joshi]

Originally posted by scabb

I'm talking about NHS therapy for people who have actual neuroses, not psychotherapy for rich people.

 

Something I'd like to address actually. Firstly, psychology for the rich, is still something practiced throughout the world, more or less in the U.S, but not solely. Now, of course, I'm not suggesting that by me simply watching american TV and films that I can deduce that everyone there who has money has a psychiatrist to psychanalyse them, but it does happen, people feel that with almost everyone else running things around them (accountants, lawers, private healthcare, why not someone to tell me who I am, using old Freudian methods). Now of course, jusging by what Scabb above has said, along with my own knowledge (there's not a lot, but there's enough) and research of the matter, I know this is mostly a waste of time, if not some rich guys way of finding someone to justify who he actually is, as apose to finding it. But even then, can't it be more harmful, or disturbing than nothing at all. I'm not basing this on myself, I know I'm currently perfectly able to survive without a psychiatrist as are others, and of course, others, notas much, or at least as they think. but, isn't it possible that such confusion to identity and personal being could create short and long term damage?

 

Secondly, dreams. Now of course a lot of theories have arisen as to what exactly they are and more importantly what they mean. I have seen countless attempts at dream analysis and interpretation, and, up until now, have passed these off as sham or basic guessing. Now this could only mean two things, either I don't believe in dreams meaning anything but just a random assortment of images and sounds in our head, or something else, or people just aren't doing it right.

 

Well, in my opinion, I think a little of both. There is no reason why it's not possible that when the brain 'shuts down' as some may say, when asleep, the brain won't simply pull things from random and create a dream. But i believe it does have to be more than that as well. Sometimes people dream about completely random things and try to interpret them whereas infact, it could simply be your brain pulling these random things together.

But then it could also be something else.

 

Now I think that of course, dreams come from the mind, and the minds is the storage place of your life, and this is not confined to experiance, but even to the imagination, which is why we sometimes dream of flying or other such impossible things (don't start about aeroplanes and gliders, you know what I mean).

 

Now of course, this means that you cannot see anywhere in the world through a dream, as some people think they may be able to do, be it past, present or future. I think it would be terribly unlikely, that I could dream about some room or something in some government building wherew I've never been or seen any pictures or anything and then actually go to the room and find it to be exactly as I dreamed, even with such a vast, or even restricted imagination.

 

But, what I think drives most dreams is passion. Or at least passion of a sort. There is no doubt that some people have dreamed of people of the opposite (or same) sex that they like in more than a friendly way. I know I have, and it's usually down to two things, one is the fact that, duh, I liked her, and two is that fact that i used to think about her before going to sleep at night (if you're gonna think about something, it may as well be something you want to think about, as apose to something you're gonna worry about despite not being able to do anything about it at that time of night). So obviously, in whatever way, I may dream about her.

 

But then, sometimes, I'd dream about people I thought I didn't like... in the least. Infact, I may go as far as to say i hate them. So why would I dream about them? Are these dreams interpreted as me actually really liking this other person (and for the sake of argument, yes, it was another girl)

 

No. Actually, hate is an attractive force, a very attractive force, and there is a lot of passion there as well, passion that could drive a dream.

 

Obviously, it may be easy to think of a dream as a collection of things that you think about most, except not all drems hark aroun them now do they?

 

My othe theory, (and one that I follow mostly) is that dream are driven by chaos. Asd we know, everything is always ever changing, temperatures are forever fluctuating, or blood is ever flowing, electical signals are ever being sent to the brain from our receptors on the skin and so on. Four of our five sense are more alive when asleep than ever, the brain doesn't shut down at all (unless of course you've learnt to sleep with you're eyes open, I'm not sure if this is actually possible, but if it was, I would think of it to have a very dramatic change on our dreams) and it is my beliefe that our dreams are effected by this. Electrical signals sent by the receptors in our skin to out brain each trigger different memories and images and sounds and whatever and dreams are basically moulded around our surroundings. and depending on how intense something for us to sense is depends on how much our dreams are moulded by outside forces. A good example is that I once dreamt I was at sea and drowning. the situation arose and everything made snese for me to be there drowning. I woke up moments later (thankfully) to find that both my nostrils had been covered up nicely by the edge of my duvet and my mouth, being usualy closed didn't open, thus actually suffocation me to the extent that a dream was constructed around it. Another example would be my alarm clock. It's always on, even on the weekend, (if only because I can always switch off the alarm and lay back in full consciousness knowing that I'm able to sleep for another 6 hours before getting up, you have no idea how blissful that is). Now my brains come up with a routine around this that I'm not consciously aware of, but what my dream knows all about. Not only will it create situations and scenarious around the sound of my alarm, but it will do this before the alarm sounds. So obviously, subconsciously, I know, and can anticipate the sound of the alarm and therefore i'm thrust into a dreamworld where the sound would be a perfectly normal sound to hear so I imaging that some other alarm, in the dream is sounding, or I'm expecting a mobile phone to go off or something. Now, obviously, I wake up about three seconds after and switch off the alarm, but there have been times when I've woken up about 5 minutes after the alarm has sounded and realised that it is comeing from my clock as appose to something in my dream, it's become such a problem, infact, that i've reverted to a radio alarm clock which a dream cannot predict, but it has to make you think doesn't it?

 

Anyway, I've spoken way too much and you guys probably didn't get passed Scabbs quote, so I'll just leave it there for now.

[JofaGuht]

Hmmm. I wouldn't really say that dreams are driven by passion, I just think that there's a lot of sexual drive residue in our subconscious, since we push back all that stuff in there during the day.

 

I do believe that dreams mean things but I don't think they are trying to "tell us" anything. I think it has to do with your present state and world. One dreams differently if in a certain mode or time of life. But It's true that neurons and receptors and stuff driving it is moving randomly, but builds from a certain thing or something. ****, I wish I had better vocabulary.

 

I also love lucid dreaming and try to do this as often as possible. I've been reading up at LeBerge's website and some of his methods work. I think it gets less random when we start building our own dreams, and that's why lucid dreams are so vivid. I know very little about brain chemistry when we dream though.

 

As for dream "symbols". I've seen dream dictionaries and stuff and what a certain object would mean, and I think it's all very full of crap. A specific symbol will mean something different to every individual. Don't waste your money on those books.

[Ray Jones]

my dreams always tell me what i really want or think. but noone except me could see that since only i know what i "thought" exactly whilst i was dreaming that and perhabs why. i mostly know why i dream stuff, i mean i know my err.. innocent mind. i often have to say to myself "shhhd, ray. that is not the right life for that. tse. disturbed looner."

 

fact is dreams say alot about yourself, but only for yourself. noone else can interpret yours. those who try to get them interpreted by others are lying to themselfes. they try to get a "better" meaning out of it than it has.

 

as for dream symbols i heard that you cannot "read" while dreaming, since that region of the brain is "turned off". except for two dreams that is true for me, but i have to say that i only read numbers and they were really really blurred. maybe i just "dreamed" i read it and tricked myself. somehow.

[DrMcCoy]

...well, most of my dreams make sense while i dream, but as soon as i wake up, i think "what the f*** have i dreamt there?" because it doesn't make any sense at all. and i forget about the things i dreamed very quick, the only thing that stays is the feeling that i dreamed strange crappy things...

[JofaGuht]

Has anyone ever seen Waking Life? That's an awesome movie.