Admiral Vostok Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Well it certainly would be difficult to do the whole EU, so I'll set you a simple task. Since I've read the Thrawn Trilogy, that seems the best one to prove your point to me. Find three explicit cross-genre references (not just coincidences like "they both have lots of fights") in the Thrawn Trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 That now means i have to try and cajole my mate into giving them back then he borrowed them for some "light" reading. A simple enough task though one weuastion am i allowed to use ones that i've already proven especially since with the exception Expersionist the rest arn't remotley related to star wars. and i'm pretty sure from last reading that they arn't in the thrawn trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Yep, you can use the other ones, though if you're going to include Martial Arts you need to provide a much stronger case than "they fight a lot" and "have masters". Other elements of Martial Art films includes the hero fighting alone (not supported by an army), the hero being a social outcast or at least socially inept, and the boss villain is usually beaten by the hero performing a trick they have never done before, or at least did not think they had the power to perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Tesa Kasi isn't that martial arts in the Star Wars universe......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Well Jedi combat is obviously a Martial Art too, but like I said it has to have a bit more than that to qualify as a Martial Art genre. For example, all of the Star Wars movies feature Jedi combat, but the only ones I'd class as mixing with the Martial Arts genre are A New Hope and The Phantom Menace, because the Master dies and the learner has to find a strength inside themselves they didn't know they had to defeat the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 it's a bit of a reverse in the books though it's the master avenging the apprentice then freinds avenging friends. though in star by star there are apprentices avenging their masters by destroying the Voxyn Queen. while they're at it they gain a deeper understanding of the force so that could class as finding skills they didn't know they had. since they try using a new technique to good effect to start off with that also reinforces star by star as martial arts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 No, knowing a new skill at the start or learning it along the way is not like a Martial Arts film. The skill has to be performed only at the end in the final fight with the evil boss, and it has to be a skill they knew existed but didn't believe they could do. Think of The Matrix as an obvious sci-fi/martial arts hybrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 as soon as i get my thrawn trilogy books back i'll do the analyis for you and prove how EU and the movies are part of a greater whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I eagerly await your failure to do so, thus proving the EU and the Movies are not part of the same whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majin Boba Fett Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 The movies can survive alone. The EU HAS to have the movies. Without the movies, the EU is star trekky trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Ok, I skimmed these 2 pages, and I still don't see what arguing about film genres has to do with EU vs Movies. Books and Movies both have their genres. And I think the EU would survive just fine without the movies. You may think it's trekky trash, but that's your opinion, and opinions are not facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Ok, I skimmed these 2 pages, and I still don't see what arguing about film genres has to do with EU vs Movies.You must have skimmed past the part where I commented that Star Wars was created not as a sci-fi, but as almost a study of different film genres. Because EU attempts no sort of genre-hybridity, it is too different from Star Wars the two to be considered a coherent whole.And I think the EU would survive just fine without the movies. You may think it's trekky trash, but that's your opinion, and opinions are not facts. Of course EU would survive without the movies, it's totally separate from the movies. Different style, different purpose, different audience, different medium, different Universe. They are different. This is what I've been trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Ok we've heard the same EU vs movies stuff for long enough just let it die you will never solve it. I've also created a new group called the Expanded Purists who are more dominate than purists and EU lovers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 Froz, if you don't like the thread you don't have to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 Who said I didn't like it, I'm just saying that you won't solve it. Plus your purism propaganda is starting to grow stale..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 Originally posted by FroZticles Plus your purism propaganda is starting to grow stale..... Definetly I should have my books back by the end of next week and then i shall prove you wrong vostok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 How exactly is it growing stale? It's not like I need to keep coming up with fresh evidence all the time when my existing evidence still isn't refuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 Or can't you come up with fresh evidnce a large portion of your existing evidence has been disproved the rest of your evidence is hanging in there by virtue of me having an extremely unreliable mate when it comes to returning things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Vostok- Evidence to what I still don't know what you are trying to prove? That the movies are superior than EU? Please tell me..... If it wasn't for EU, Star Wars games would be extremely limited theres only so many types of games you can make based on 6 movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Certainly What i'm trying to prove is that EU is just as Important as the movies not more or less as some poeple think. really people who think that EU is more important than the films is daft of course that works in reverse. They are both parts equal parts of the same whole that is star wars and as such both nessacery and important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Froz - I am not trying to prove the films are better than the EU. That's a completely subjective opinion and not quantifiable at all. What I am trying to prove is that the EU is not a proper part of the Star Wars Universe - the Universes depicted in the films and in the novels are just too different from each other. If it wasn't for EU, Star Wars games would be extremely limited theres only so many types of games you can make based on 6 movies.The only game based solely on EU is the KOTOR series. Other games are either explicitely linked to the films, or use extensive imagery from the films. Take Jedi Outcast for example; the Imperial Remnant portrayed there, with the exception of the Shadowtroopers and those Force-using guys, shares more in common with the Empire we now from the movies than the Imperial Remnant we read of in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 This whole discussion is all based on our own opinion, and will never change. EU fans will believe the EU is part of Star Wars, and some will think it's better. Some people will only like the movies and not care for the EU, and some denounce it. I didn't find that quote, but I was thinking of the Boba Fett question. The Expanded Universe was given approval by George Lucas, wether it was for more money or not. It it Licensed by LucasWhatever. It has Star Wars in big letters in Titles of the books. In my mind, I believe it to be part of Star Wars. YOU don't have to like it, and I'm not force feeding it to you, but you will most likely not chnage my opinion on the matter, and neither will anyone else. I most likley will be ignoring this discussion now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Well I guess you're right Phreak. We'll never agree on what defines Star Wars; I suppose it means different things to different people. The elements that make Star Wars special for me just aren't evident in the books; whereas obviously the thing that makes Star Wars special for you is in the books. I use the genre-hybridisation argument, because the genre hybridisation is something that defined Star Wars as being different from every other sci-fi that had come before, and is certainly something the books don't have. Yet to you and Viceroy that might not matter; as long as they've got laser-swords and spaceships you seem to be happy with it. I am also of the opinion that real Star Wars can only truly be created by George Lucas, since it is his creation. And again, since George Lucas has said in the past he doesn't always agree with the direction EU is taken in, I see this as important. Yet you might not; it doesn't matter what happens to the continuity, the characters, the mythology or the story, as long as the familiar Star Wars logo is somewhere on the front cover then that's good enough for you. I believe all good things must come to an end, and with the release of Episode III, that's exactly what will happen for me. I don't need the EU to keep my interest in Star Wars, it's good enough to survive on it's own in my opinion. I don't need the gaps filled in; all good stories have gaps in them, to burden down a good story with minute, inconsequential details is just not good storytelling. But that's just what I believe. To each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 EU is not just the books, tv specials and games are all apart of it. Outkast is pure EU you cannot justifiy it as close to the movies, just because its close to the Empire. Everything in that game had EU in it hardly anything from the films besides the stormies and jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Well yes, EU is everything except the movies, though the books are the biggest part of that and the medium that generates the most EUFans, so that's why I referred just to the books. But the same goes for all that other stuff too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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