KISS-tool

[SConrad]

Hey, all.

 

We've noticed a very low traffic of the KISS-tool, so I wonder if there is any reason why modders don't use it.

[Achilles]

Option three is double-barrelled.

 

Addtionally, your poll seems to be lacking an "I'm comfortable editing 2da files on my own" option as well as an "I usually only use mods that I make" option.

 

I hope that helps!

[Darth333]

I believe that the reasons why KISS is probably not really used by modders right now are:

 

The kotor modding community is young and small. Holowan labs welcomes modders with any kind of background and we encourage everyone to try their hand at modding Kotor, experience or not. It happens that many people here, perhaps the majority, did not have any prior experience with modding. The only common point to all Holowan modders here is that they all enjoyed the game and it is the most important.

 

Normally, modders who don't have any experience will begin with item editing (which is made easy with Kotor Tool), retexturing/recoloring and .2da editing. These mods do not require any knowledge of coding whatsoever. For those modders, KISS is quite complicated to handle and may be closer to chinese than anything else, since you have to make some scripts to get it working. In other words, it can be scary and I prefer to see some incompatibilities than less modders. To avoid incompatibilities we also have cchargin's KMM which is very simple to use - it does not allow to combine mods but it allows user to check for incompatibilities and to select the mods they want to use.

 

The other thing: those mods normally add a single line to a file such as appearance.2da and, regardless of the modders ability to use kiss, it is easier and quicker to manually add a line and include instructions on how to do so in the readme (and honestly, it is not a bad thing: this method has intorduced some people to modding ). Note that I do not discourage the use of KISS for such mods. On the contrary, if everyone was using KISS it would make mod users' "life" easier but it is a bit overkill in many cases. However, for more extended mods like Immortality's customization packs, it is different: it was a collection of new heads and not a single one so the ratio time to make the mod/time to pack it becomes much more reasonable. Perhaps t7 will use it in his next release of HL plug-in, I don't know.

 

Apart that, new areas that have been created use a .mod file with a custom name and therefore do not conflict with anything else.

 

I considered using KISS for the last version of the AIOFPM (All-in-one-force powers mod) but I finally used a simple installer due to the fact that the mod uses spells.2da and this file refers to custom scripts. If you change any line in spells.2da, then the mod does not work anymore

 

I would say that generally speaking, we don't have many mods now that justify using KISS. The tools are still under development. tk102 and Fred work everyday to make modder's life easier. It is only recently that an area editor has been added to Kotor tool and yet much work remains to be done. Tk102, the author of DLGEdit and many more is working on a complete standalone dialog editor in GUI which should be released very soon . Fred is also adding one to Kotor tool. Maybe when the area editor will be completed, we will have bigger mods that will justify the use of KISS. KISS is a good tool and will probably find users in the future, when we have more extended mods coming

[SConrad]

Normally, modders who don't have any experience will begin with item editing (which is made easy with Kotor Tool), retexturing/recoloring and .2da editing.

That might very well be a reason, yes. And something that makes the post "Create a KISS-tutorial" rise in priority on my TODO-list.

 

The other thing: those mods normally add a single line to a file such as appearance.2da and, regardless of the modders ability to use kiss, it is easier and quicker to manually add a line and include instructions on how to do so in the readme (and honestly, it is not a bad thing: this method has intorduced some people to modding ). Note that I do not discourage the use of KISS for such mods. On the contrary, if everyone was using KISS it would make mod users' "life" easier but it is a bit overkill in many cases.

Editing a 2da manually might very well be easier, at first look. But that's where I disagree. Adding/changing lines in a 2da goes much smoother with KISS, once you've got the hang of it.

 

KISS is not only making things easier for the players, but for the modders as well. You don't even need to actually open the 2da, you can just append/change with KISS. Once you've learned how it works, it's a peice of cake.

 

I considered using KISS for the last version of the AIOFPM (All-in-one-force powers mod) but I finally used a simple installer due to the fact that the mod uses spells.2da and this file refers to custom scripts. If you change any line in spells.2da, then the mod does not work anymore

Then what did you do with the spells-2da? I'm sure it's something KISS could have done.

 

I would say that generally speaking, we don't have many mods now that justify using KISS. The tools are still under development. tk102 and Fred work everyday to make modder's life easier. It is only recently that an area editor has been added to Kotor tool and yet much work remains to be done. Tk102, the author of DLGEdit and many more is working on a complete standalone dialog editor in GUI which should be released very soon . Fred is also adding one to Kotor tool. Maybe when the area editor will be completed, we will have bigger mods that will justify the use of KISS. KISS is a good tool and will probably find users in the future, when we have more extended mods coming

I hope so. KISS is a fantastic tool, and Kotor-modders should really try it out.

 

Kotortool is constantly improving, and I'm sure that it, combined with KISS, will take kotor-modding to a more advanced level.

 

As I've previously said, I've modded the much more modding-unfriendly IE-engine, and IE-modding is way beyond the level of kotor-modding today. I hope this will change.

[Darkkender]

I have found so far that kiss tool like many of the scripting tools out there is very user unfriendly. By user unfriendly I mean it is set to run from a command line interface and not from a GUI interface, and while I'm proificient with command line interface many out there are not. They are one of many who have never had DOS and as such for a lack of a better word are scared of it. Also a problem I have found is many of the readme's that are provided are still very vague as to what to do, while yours is very well laid out I still have many problems with trying to decipher what I'm supposed to do to implement the commands. What would help would be more indepth example text of what should be entered at the command line as well as a before and after type of example. These are just issues from a newbie perspective that most newbies face and struggle with constantly as to be afraid of aproaching the bigger more daunting mods.

[SConrad]

Originally posted by darkkender

I have found so far that kiss tool like many of the scripting tools out there is very user unfriendly. By user unfriendly I mean it is set to run from a command line interface and not from a GUI interface, and while I'm proificient with command line interface many out there are not. They are one of many who have never had DOS and as such for a lack of a better word are scared of it. Also a problem I have found is many of the readme's that are provided are still very vague as to what to do, while yours is very well laid out I still have many problems with trying to decipher what I'm supposed to do to implement the commands. What would help would be more indepth example text of what should be entered at the command line as well as a before and after type of example. These are just issues from a newbie perspective that most newbies face and struggle with constantly as to be afraid of aproaching the bigger more daunting mods.

Another reason why I should do that tutorial.

 

But, you don't actually use the commandline-interface, just the script.

[Darth333]

Originally posted by SConrad

That might very well be a reason, yes. And something that makes the post "Create a KISS-tutorial" rise in priority on my TODO-list

That would be great. As I said, Kiss can scare a lot of people

The more user friendly it will be, the more people will use it. I sometimes get questions in my PMs about how to open a command prompt...

Then what did you do with the spells-2da? I'm sure it's something KISS could have done.

I have to give the same row number in spells.2da as specified in the custom force power script.

Each script contains a line similar to:

int FORCE_POWER_REPLICATE_THREE = 134;

So if another force power uses those lines, it will conflict. If I let kiss create a new line, then the force power will not work anymore...the script has to be edited and recompiled as well.

Kotortool is constantly improving, and I'm sure that it, combined with KISS, will take kotor-modding to a more advanced level.

I think everyone aims at the same thing

 

What would be great to have is a good newbie tutorial for the KISS tool as well as some ready to use sample scripts for the most common mods.

[SConrad]

That would be great. As I said, Kiss can scare a lot of people

The more user friendly it will be, the more people will use it. I sometimes get questions in my PMs about how to open a command prompt...

Oh, dear. I'll start asap.

 

So if another force power uses those lines, it will conflict. If I let kiss create a new line, then the force power will not work anymore...the script has to be edited and recompiled as well.

Ah, I see. Too bad..

 

Theo says that compiling scripts will be added in KISS later on.

 

What would be great to have is a good newbie tutorial for the KISS tool as well as some ready to use sample scripts for the most common mods.

I'm on it!

[Xavier2]

Originally posted by darkkender

I have found so far that kiss tool like many of the scripting tools out there is very user unfriendly. By user unfriendly I mean it is set to run from a command line interface and not from a GUI interface, and while I'm proificient with command line interface many out there are not. They are one of many who have never had DOS and as such for a lack of a better word are scared of it. Also a problem I have found is many of the readme's that are provided are still very vague as to what to do, while yours is very well laid out I still have many problems with trying to decipher what I'm supposed to do to implement the commands. What would help would be more indepth example text of what should be entered at the command line as well as a before and after type of example. These are just issues from a newbie perspective that most newbies face and struggle with constantly as to be afraid of aproaching the bigger more daunting mods.

 

I should add that KISS is not working for me. I try to open it, but it opens a DOS-like window and closes again...

[Nodakrattler]

Originally posted by darkkender

I have found so far that kiss tool like many of the scripting tools out there is very user unfriendly. By user unfriendly I mean it is set to run from a command line interface and not from a GUI interface, and while I'm proificient with command line interface many out there are not. They are one of many who have never had DOS and as such for a lack of a better word are scared of it. Also a problem I have found is many of the readme's that are provided are still very vague as to what to do, while yours is very well laid out I still have many problems with trying to decipher what I'm supposed to do to implement the commands. What would help would be more indepth example text of what should be entered at the command line as well as a before and after type of example. These are just issues from a newbie perspective that most newbies face and struggle with constantly as to be afraid of aproaching the bigger more daunting mods.

 

Ok I've read through the post and just have one question, what are you talking about when you say "run from a command line interface and not from a GUI interface "? Does this mean one runs like dos and the other runs like windows?

[SConrad]

Both Xavier2 and Nodakrattler has got the wrong idea.

 

You don't click KISS to get it to work, you create a script in a regular text-editor, which KISS then will read from, and do whatever you said it should do in the script.

 

I'll explain this in the tutorial I'm writing right now.

[Nodakrattler]

Ohh... Haven't gotten into scripting yet, but I'll at least take a look at your tutorial when you're done with it.

[Darkkender]

Ok I've read through the post and just have one question, what are you talking about when you say "run from a command line interface and not from a GUI interface "? Does this mean one runs like dos and the other runs like windows?

 

Command line interface is any program that must be run from CMD it's an old term used for any program that has to be run from DOS where you must use switches such as Dos's dir command where you use /p to pause. Kiss requires you to use cmd and run it from the command prompt to implement the script you intend to run or implement. Which means you must know witch switches you need to use as well as require you to type in the entire path and file name of file you intend to change as well as the file you are making your calls from as well as the apropriate switches to run properly. Hence making it less user friendly than a GUI.

 

A GUI(Graphical User Interface) Interface allows a user to click on the program and click an open or browse interface that allows you to find the file you wish to edit or update. Then you click a box or something similiar to tell the program which change to make where. making the program user friendly.

 

The Big difference here is for the newbie a GUI usually provides a short description of what each switch does when you click on it. Meanwhile a command line program requires you to run the program without any switches first so you know what switches are available as well as what they do.

 

Master has asked that I relay this message. Too the makers of Kiss this is intended as an indepth answer to above question, not a badgering assault of criticism of your program. Although if you would like to consider this as a suggestion for a future upgrade it would be most apreciated "Meatbags".

 

"HK is ready to serve Master."

[SConrad]

Darkkender, thy perception about KISS is flawed, but let's not go into that.

 

Anyway, I have now written two tutorials. It only took me 3 hours.

 

How to script a KS-script, which you later make run together with KISS to install a mod, using nothing but a text-editor to write the script.

 

How to make the script run together with KISS, and thus making it a flawless install, with one single push on an exe-file, and the whole mod will be completely installed (and compatible).

[BountyHUNTER12]

This reminds me of Defiance's Flying Temple XMOD Installer for X-wing Alliance. It used scripts but had a GUI.

[CDRSeadog]

Those tutorials are excellent - most especially if saved to HD as a web page archive for future reference...now if I ever find the time to get back into modding *chuckles*

[Darkkender]

Try as I might over the last few days I have yet to understand where my perception of a command line interface vs a gui interface and my perception that kiss is without a doubt a command line interface.

[Darth333]

You did a good job with those tutorials. They should make things easier for some modders but I still believe that kiss remains inaccesible to many modders. I will try it next time I make a mod that involves .2da editing (other than spells.2da fo course )

 

Originally posted by darkkender

Try as I might over the last few days I have yet to understand where my perception of a command line interface vs a gui interface and my perception that kiss is without a doubt a command line interface.

That (including the kiss part) shouldn't be too difficult for someone who is a " 46.74556% geek or a Super Geek as it is referred to on the geektest at http://www.innergeek.us/" . You beat all the others who have sent me their results of this test!

[SConrad]

Originally posted by CDRSeadog

Those tutorials are excellent - most especially if saved to HD as a web page archive for future reference...now if I ever find the time to get back into modding *chuckles*

 

Originally posted by Darth333

You did a good job with those tutorials. They should make things easier for some modders but I still believe that kiss remains inaccesible to many modders. I will try it next time I make a mod that involves .2da editing (other than spells.2da fo course )

Thanks for the compliments.

 

Originally posted by darkkender

Try as I might over the last few days I have yet to understand where my perception of a command line interface vs a gui interface and my perception that kiss is without a doubt a command line interface.

A command line interface, yes, no doubt. But you don't actually do anything with it manually. It's not a prompt, you know...

 

Ah, nevermind.