Pc

[lukeiamyourdad]

Whatever you do, whatever you say, you're going to end up insulting an idiot who has too much time on his hands...

[Spider AL]

Whatever you do, whatever you say, you're going to end up insulting an idiot who has too much time on his hands...

Actually I don't feel remotely insulted.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

The same goes for the terms jap and paki (and chinaman depending on the use). It isn't the litteral meaning of the word, it is what they have come to mean and represent. As far as describing someone, it wouldn't literally make much difference if you reffered to them as "a jap" or "japanese" or whatever... but one has a derogatory meaning attached to it and the other doesn't, one is insulting (becuase of said attached meaning) and the other isn't.

 

And it's a shame that they have come to mean something offensive. I for one, don't mind if someone calls me a Russky (I'm Russian), becuase to me that's no different to calling someone who's English/Scottish/Welsh a Brit.

 

Brit is short for British. Just like (in theory anyway) Jap is short for Japanese.

Besides how is saying Jap, Russky, Paki, ect. considered offensive when saying something like Yank or Brit isn't.

 

The only [potentially] offensive word that can be used to desribe a forienger that I can think of is Chink.

[toms]

Originally posted by Spider AL

"OMG you can't call that CHALKboard a BLACKboard, because that's racist!"

 

But whether you call it a chalkboard or a blackboard neither has any negatve connotations associated. Calling things that suck "gay", or using it as an insult among friends, might not be the end of the world, but it implies that being "gay" is somehow bad. Kids will pick up on that.

 

Some PC things do take ings too far... but just because a few do everyone seems to assume that all political correctness is bad. 90% of it is simple, sensible respect and politeness.... and if a few small bits are silly that doesn't mean the rest should be hated or thought of as a joke.

[Spider AL]

But whether you call it a chalkboard or a blackboard neither has any negatve connotations associated.

Exactly. Such silliness is the END result of a progression STARTED when admittedly well-meaning people like yourself begin to censor the language of others.

 

Calling things that suck "gay", or using it as an insult among friends, might not be the end of the world, but it implies that being "gay" is somehow bad. Kids will pick up on that.

Have you ANY idea of the number of similar words that have slipped into common parlance in the same manner? "Punk" for instance? If I may oversimplify archaic language for a moment; punk is an archaic term for "rent boy". Nowadays it's used as a mild insult implying inexperience, and nobody worries about offending the sensibilities of young gay men forced into prostitution, do they? Why? Because it was left alone. The longer words are out in the open the less offensive power they have.

 

If you start censoring people for using the word "gay" to describe something negative, like losing a computer game, you merely DRAW ATTENTION to its original meaning, RE-ASSOCIATING it with its original connotations. And frankly, that'll do more harm than good as I'm sure you can see.

 

Some PC things do take ings too far... but just because a few do everyone seems to assume that all political correctness is bad.

Political correctness is about censoring people. It's about deciding what we can say and what we can't say and as such, it's dictatorial. It's also about reminding people of the tenuous racial connotations of perfectly innoccuous words. Let it go on long enough, and it becomes about calling a blackboard a chalkboard. We've seen the stupid place where it led us before, I for one refuse to allow it to begin again.

 

Screw PC.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Instead of teaching political correctness, we should teach simple respect.

[Hiroki]

Good one, Luke. I agree with that 100%. And I am also getting a little pissed off with the way everyone takes offence at every little comment out there...that really peeves me, and almost tempts me to say something PI, just so they'll grow up.

[iamtrip]

Originally posted by Hiroki

pissed

 

 

Please, no swearing.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Spider AL

"OMG you can't call that CHALKboard a BLACKboard, because that's racist!"

 

if i would be *black* i wouldn't find it quite polite if anybody if not everybody makes such a deal out of it. i mean, black skin is black skin, what's the point? there is nothing bad about it, or some reason why this shouldn't be mentioned. everybody in the world can say "he's a white man" without being inpolite. why is saying "black man" inpolite? it's just a simple fact. like saying someone has black or red hair.

 

the point is it is not necessarily WHAT is said, but HOW it is said or INTENDED. nearly everything can be seen insulting or offensive..

[iamtrip]

Sometimes I say "He's a jew" and people take offence. Yet they are jewish.

[toms]

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

Instead of teaching political correctness, we should teach simple respect.

 

but you still would end up with an area that is hard to define, some people not liking the "inconvienience" of having to change the way they treat people and some people being more sensitive than others. And then people would complain about it being "respect gone mad!!" and respect would get a bad name...

 

There will always be a few people who take things to extremes, but that is no reason to throw a fit and declare the whole thing unworkable.

 

If you start censoring people for using the word "gay" to describe something negative, like losing a computer game, you merely DRAW ATTENTION to its original meaning, RE-ASSOCIATING it with its original connotations. And frankly, that'll do more harm than good as I'm sure you can see.

 

I don't see that at all, and i don't follow your logic. The meaning of words change all the time, and it may well be that "gay" will slowly loose its old meaning and slip into common usage, and that is fine. But in order to become innofensive it would have to become disassociated from it's original meaning. I didn't know where punk came from, i doubt any punks knew where punk came from. So it has no associated meaning anymore. "gay" still does.

 

I guess you could argue that by going around using such words you are helping to remove it's stigma... but i very much doubt it.

[El Sitherino]

Punk was actually an archaic term for prostitute. I don't think anyone really knows it's origin though.

 

punk

 

\Punk\, n. [Cf. Spunk.]

1. Wood so decayed as to be dry, crumbly, and useful for tinder; touchwood.

 

2. A fungus (Polyporus fomentarius, etc.) sometimes dried for tinder; agaric.

 

3. An artificial tinder. See Amadou, and Spunk.

 

4. A prostitute; a strumpet. [Obsoles.]

 

 

punk1 (pngk)

n.

 

1. Slang.

1. A young person, especially a member of a rebellious counterculture group.

2. An inexperienced young man.

2. Music.

1. Punk rock.

2. A punk rocker.

3.

1. Slang. A young man who is the sexual partner of an older man.

2.Archaic. A prostitute.

 

Dictionary: Punk

 

 

the word punk itself isn't offensive, but depending on how people say it, and their intention of using it, it can be offensive, same with anyword though. But some words just have a long history of hate in them.

[Spider AL]

Hmm, perhaps you could clarify your point, Insanesith? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in response to Toms... Just for my benefit eh.

 

toms:

 

I don't see that at all, and i don't follow your logic. The meaning of words change all the time, and it may well be that "gay" will slowly loose its old meaning and slip into common usage, and that is fine. But in order to become innofensive it would have to become disassociated from it's original meaning. I didn't know where punk came from, i doubt any punks knew where punk came from. So it has no associated meaning anymore. "gay" still does.

I already gave you the archaic meaning of the word "punk".

 

The word "punk" became disassociated from its original, more offensive and extreme meaning over time.

 

The word "gay" is likewise being disassociated from its original meaning. People lose a computer game, and say "that's ghey d00d." Well obviously they're not ascribing genuine homosexual tendencies to their LOSS, are they. It doesn't take a million miles of hindsight to hypothesise that "punk" followed a similar path. Instead of being used only as a pejorative term for (mostly male) prostitutes, it became more widespread and common in its usage, so much so that nowadays it is used to describe an inexperienced person. And it's not very insulting anymore.

 

You're one of many people trying to stop the word "gay" from breaking out into general usage for fear of hurting some homosexuals' feelings. In the long run however, "gay" would be stripped of its serious connotations and its original meaning would likely be almost totally forgotten. That's the natural progression of language.

 

By attempting to STOP people from saying whatever they wish, when they wish, you merely build resentment among THEM, and of course draw attention back to the original word's meaning, re-associating the negative usage of the word with its ORIGINAL MEANING.

 

I guess you could argue that by going around using such words you are helping to remove it's stigma... but i very much doubt it.

I'd seriously like to hear any logical arguments you can produce to back up this doubt.

 

There will always be a few people who take things to extremes, but that is no reason to throw a fit and declare the whole thing unworkable.

You could say the same thing about fascism I suppose. PC is after all, dictatorial censorship. As such it bears some similarities... Book burning, anyone?

[toms]

i'm completely failing to follow your logic. It doesn't follow that just because the word punk became stripped of all it's meaning and came to be less offensive that other words would.

 

For one thing it's original meaning of some kind of rent-boy was hardly likely to have been widespread knowledge, and i can't see a lot of rent-boys being offended if you called someone a punk (it is hardly a slur against them is it?)

Gay, on the other hand, already has a well established meaning that everyone knows... what you are advocating is that it stops meaning anything to do with homosexual,and just comes to mean something bad. I see no evidence that that is likely to happen in the near future, unless all gays disappear from sight.

Words like faggot and nigger have been around (in common usage) for longer, and have lost neither their original meaning or their pwer to hurt or be offensive.

 

Of course words meanings change over time, but that occurs when the original meaning is used less and less and the "new meanin" takes over as the most common usage. So you are advocating that the best way not to offend everyone is to go around using words like gay and fag and nigger as insults until people evenutally forget that they meant homosexual or black?

 

Surely it would just be easier to stop using them as insults???

 

Still, i'm glad that your crusade to use these words is based on your desire to improve the world, not the fact you like them, or your mates use them, or you don't like being told what to say....

 

political correctness

n : avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or marginalize or insult people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

 

You are right, that is just like book burning.....

 

Although, as you can see by the fact the second definition has made it into a dictionary, even PC has become subject to a change in meaning... coming to mean something bad that it never used to mean.

politically correct adj. Abbr. PC

1- Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.

2- Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

 

Still, if you keep using it to mean the second meaning, maybe eventually people will forget the first meaning and it can be used only as an insult.

[iamtrip]

fair meant pretty...now it means average.

Punk was offensive...now it isn't.

Gay was offensive...it now means pathetic.

 

Although traditionally 'Gay' was offensive, its usage isn't a slur against homosexuality, its merely evolved to have a different meaning.

Obviously some sensitive people don't recognise this yet, but over time its new meaning with gradually become universal, as happened weith countless other words.

[Spider AL]

i'm completely failing to follow your logic.

I apologise for any lack of clarity on my part, not that I think there WAS any lack of clarity... I will reiterate...

 

It doesn't follow that just because the word punk became stripped of all it's meaning and came to be less offensive that other words would.

Other words HAVE. (Take "ass" for instance. When you call someone an ass, you are no longer calling them a donkey.) And other words will. It's already happened to a certain degree to "gay" as I stated before. You cannot dispute this. It is fact: The word "gay" is no longer merely used in its original context.

 

And words don't merely change in meaning over time, some simply fade, losing all power as "damn" did. Words can disappear altogether.

 

Of course words meanings change over time, but that occurs when the original meaning is used less and less and the "new meanin" takes over as the most common usage. So you are advocating that the best way not to offend everyone is to go around using words like gay and fag and nigger as insults until people evenutally forget that they meant homosexual or black?

It's not "MY solution". It's just the way things work. And the way things work... is better than YOUR solution, which is to tell people what they can and cannot say. What arrogance!

 

Words like faggot and nigger have been around (in common usage) for longer, and have lost neither their original meaning or their pwer to hurt or be offensive.

That's because people are always reminded of their original meanings. And when we ask why, we must remember that it's not just racists and homophobes that use them.

 

As a point of interest, the original meaning of the word "faggot" was a bundle of sticks, or perhaps a small piece of wood, particularly one that is burning or has been burned. A variant of this word can also be an abbreviation in musical terminology for a bassoon. Isn't linguistics fun? Case in point: Words EVOLVE if LEFT ALONE.

 

Surely it would just be easier to stop using them as insults???

The more sanctimonious people try to censor the populace, the more the populace will rise up against those who try to censor them. That's not a recipe for the type of harmony you profess to wish to engender. On the contrary, I often suspect people of your ilk of wishing nothing more than to exercise control over others.

 

Still, i'm glad that your crusade to use these words is based on your desire to improve the world, not the fact you like them, or your mates use them, or you don't like being told what to say....

Ahh unpleasant little implication, the most immature form of debating tactic.

 

FYI, I don't use the words we've been discussing mostly because I have a vocabulary large enough to accomodate the gaps. But I'll defend the right to free speech with my life blood, make no mistake.

 

And no, I DON'T like people telling me what I CAN and CANNOT say. Because that impinges on my right to free speech.

 

I can't say that I use the word "courgette" in conversation much. But if you started telling me that I couldn't use it anymore because it offended people,.. oh I'd get very angry. Neither you nor anyone else restricts my right to say what I want, when I want.

 

Still, if you keep using it to mean the second meaning, maybe eventually people will forget the first meaning and it can be used only as an insult

Believe me, when I call someone politically correct, it IS meant as an insult.

 

You are right, that is just like book burning.....

Actually it is. EVEN that pro-PC definition implies censorship. Censorship is what the burning of the books was all about, one only has to read a little about the nazis to understand that their ideology was the ideology of punishing those who didn't conform to their ideal.

 

That's what the PC brigade do too, and don't give us any utter rot to the contrary. I've met and debated with many PC people in my time who wouldn't bat an eyelid to the idea of executing or imprisoning hard-line racists.

 

Yes, racists are pathetic, ignorant and therefore evil, ignorance being the one true sin.

 

No, we can't go around eliminating people to force our ideal into being. And eliminating thought and expression of thought is JUST as bad, if not worse.

 

For one thing it's original meaning of some kind of rent-boy was hardly likely to have been widespread knowledge

Actually it's pretty likely that it was widespread, depending on the size and decadence of the city one lived in.

 

and i can't see a lot of rent-boys being offended if you called someone a punk (it is hardly a slur against them is it?)

Well that doesn't fit. You say you think that two guys playing a computer game calling each other "ghey" is a slur against homosexuals, and yet you think that in the olden days calling each other "punks" wasn't a comparable slur against male prostitutes? Make your mind up.

[Loopster]

I don't see what the worry about PC is anyways. If words change, they'll change. Politeness and modesty were taken to what are in my opinion ridiculous extremes during the Victorian Era. I'm sure we've all heard about those absolutely scandelous table legs, after all. Look where we are now. The ever innocent Brittney Spears is half-naked in videos meant for pre-tween girls, lingerie models plainly visible through shop windows, and...you get the point.

 

Victorian Era conservitism didn't slaughter thousands of innocents or raise the Third Reich or produce genetic weapons. There may have been a little book burning and those womens' waists were probably in pain, which I do sympathize with, but look where we are today. PC won't go away for awhile, but if it ever did become too stifling it would just blow over.

 

Frankly I don't think it's the place of the law or any judicial system to determine political correctness. If a leadership says something the people don't like, it can simply be disposed of.

 

On a person to person level things become more difficult, and I like to think that even when it comes to free speech, my rights end where yours begin. I don't think it's right if I, for example, posted pictures of some random person all over a neighborhood and printed the words "CHILD MOLESTER" under it for all to see. In the same vein, I don't want people screaming "BOMB" in a place they shouldn't so that I'm trampled in the ensuing panic.

 

I'm certainly not saying peole shouldn't be allowed to say those things! But there are certain contexts when some words are and are not appropriate, and in my extreme examples anyways, such contexts are pretty specific and concise. Granted, this is more of a safety or legal issue than a human rights one, but I think it's applicable to the topic.

 

Verbal politeness isn't tangible, but it can and cannot produce tangible results. If someone is polite to me, I'll probably be polite to them. If someone continually insults me without explanation, obviously I'm going to consider taking a more tangible form of action other than asking them to stop.

 

Verbal political correctness, on the other hand, I usually ignore altogether. The way I see it, people should be allowed to say what they want to say. If it harms your feelings, too bad. Inevitably such problems can be overcome without censorship and without shielding oneself from the world, at least in my opinion.

 

But if someone tried to hurt me in any other way with their words, I wouldn't just stand there and take it. If someone is using lies to limit what I do and take away my rights, I'm just as entitled to retalitory action as I am entitled to say what I want.

[iamtrip]

Are you saying that 'shaking your ass' doesn't mean the vigorous wobbling of a donkey?

[Spider AL]

I don't see what the worry about PC is anyways. If words change, they'll change. Politeness and modesty were taken to what are in my opinion ridiculous extremes during the Victorian Era. ... Victorian Era conservitism didn't slaughter thousands of innocents or raise the Third Reich or produce genetic weapons. There may have been a little book burning and those womens' waists were probably in pain, which I do sympathize with, but look where we are today. PC won't go away for awhile, but if it ever did become too stifling it would just blow over.

Are you referring to the era in which the traffic of slavery continued to be rampant, asian immigrants were referred to as "the yellow peril" and so-called scientists found new and idiotic ways to "prove" that people of other races and yes, other CLASSES were physically and mentally inferior to the white upper classes?

 

White upper class people being polite and modest to each other hardly equates to contemporary PC, which is in fact not based on social propriety but left-wing censorship.

 

On the other hand, you may be right, PC might just blow over if allowed to flourish. I'm not willing to take that chance however, and so I shall do my best to support those who wish to stamp out PC altogether.

 

Verbal political correctness, on the other hand, I usually ignore altogether. The way I see it, people should be allowed to say what they want to say. If it harms your feelings, too bad. Inevitably such problems can be overcome without censorship and without shielding oneself from the world, at least in my opinion.

Quite so, hear hear.

[Spider AL]

Are you saying that 'shaking your ass' doesn't mean the vigorous wobbling of a donkey?

Oh, how I wish it did.

[SkinWalker]

I should think that there are certain things that are considered "politically correct" that both transcend international cultures and fail to do so. Certain concepts, ideas or terms that mean indicate that the perception of them is not necessarily equal to the intent of them.

 

"Having a fag," for instance means something different in London than it does in San Francisco.

 

But a using racial epithets intended to belittle, demean, or unfairly criticize a marginalized class will transcend a culture (assuming that the language is understood) becuase of its intention.

 

The perception might be misunderstood if your British friend visits you in Iowa and asks if you "care for a fag," but thats only due to ignorance of the intent. These kinds of things are usually cleared up when people talk to each other or as you get to know one another. But just like with international cultures, intranational cultures can experience the same or similar issues. Such as with the term "nigger" or "nigga." As a child, when I heard this it was in the demeaning and belittling frame of mind. It means something different to today's so-called "urban" culture and is accepted among each other because they understand the intent to each other.

 

So when we talk about "political correctness," I think there are a number of things to consider, perceptions and intentions being among them. But also we have to consider the marginalization, either past or present, of other cultures, sub-cultures, religions, or demographic units.

 

Does continued use of the term "nigga" or "nigger" in the non-racial context with non-racial intentions still evoke memories, some of them very fresh, in those that were affected by the stigma of extreme racial prejudice and hatred. Something that today's generation and today's youth think they understand, but something that my generation witnessed first-hand.

 

Being a white person who grew up in rural Virginia, the terms evoke past memories and feelings.

 

These are just my thoughts and opinions... and not meant to convince anyone of any side or the other on the issue of political correctness. I have to confess that I have mixed thoughts on the issue. I definately see instances where PC can go to far, but I also see instances where it is a good thing. Too bad the line cannot be clearly delineated.

[iamtrip]

well with the same idea, the word gay is often used where there is no relation to homosexuality.

 

For instance, I've heard people say 'Oh that film was gay'

 

"Did you like it?"

"No, it was gay"

 

Substitute gay for pathetic and you'd get their overall meaning.

Substitute gay for homosexual and you'd get quite a different meaning.

 

Both situations have no relevance to creating a certain disposition regarding homosexuality. The fact that the word gay may be a (derogatory) term for homosexuals is irrelevant.

Many words have double meanings (as gay has evolved to have a very separate meaning), and bear no resemblance to each other.

[legameboy]

Speaking of extreme political correctness, take a look at the "Cingular Question of the Day," right at this page.

 

In case you look at that link one day too late, it asks if sports teams bearing Native American related names should be forced to use a different name.

 

They've already banned Native Americans names for sports teams in California.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Oh good lord what will happen to the Cleveland Indians!

 

 

[legameboy]

Well, nothing has been passed to change any of the NFL team's names.