What DO you like about EMI?

[Udvarnoky]

Originally posted by xalax

Well, well, well, this is my first post so i'm gonna do it quickly.

I think EMI is a good adventure game, but i don't like it as a Monkey, i'd prefer to omit it.

I didn't like the Monkey Combat and there were some puzzles with no sense, like the one in the blind man's palace , you know. And i really hate the end, it's hard to think you have to draw a Monkey Combat with Lechuk to win.

I prefer the 2D graphics in the Monkeys instead of the 3D, i'm not saying that i don't like 3D graphics but seeing what the guys of Lucas Arts made with EMI...

However, i DO like the story but i think it's a bit strange.

(Sorry about the gramatical mistakes, i'm not american)

 

Like a lot of people (including me), you have some quibbles with this game. But none that you listed seem to be terrible enough to make you want to "prefer to omit it" from the series. Your points are that some puzzles are illogical, you didn't really care for Monkey Kombat, you don't like the very last puzzle for whatever reason, and you prefer 2D to 3D. All of those points are quite understandable, but there must be something else that you really hated to make you think that it's unworthy of the title.

 

The 3D aspect seems to be the one causing the most distress, so let's discuss that. What is it particularly that everyone can't stand about the 3D transition, other than that 2D is better? EMI has its faults, but I've yet to hear (and I'm not talking about just this thread) any solid evidence that it should cause fans, as Mixnmojo suggests, "left to ponder the cost of future games on the integrity of the series." There's a difference between being critical and being ridiculous. It would appear that I'm the only person who feels that most of the attacks against EMI are ridiculous.

[xalax]

Originally posted by Udvarnoky

But none that you listed seem to be terrible enough to make you want to "prefer to omit it" from the series. All of those points are quite understandable, but there must be something else that you really hated to make you think that it's unworthy of the title.

 

As i said, i like the EMI but only as an adventure game. Because it's dissapointing to think that "the secret of Monkey Island" is the Giant Monkey Robot, i really liked it (the Giant Monkey Robot)but i felt and i feel dissapointed because i was waiting for something else than it.

But i think the reasons i don't like the EMI is because i played the games in the correct order so i've been thinking about the secret of MI since i started to play MI1, and i had never thought that the secret of MI could be the Giant Monkey Robot.

But if i had played the MI in a different order, my opinion would change a lot.

(Sorry about the gramatical mistakes, as i said before I'm not american )

[Skinkie]

I was always disapointed about the Giant Monkey Robot as I remember going in it the first time and ending up in the catacombs of Hell. Which mysteriously disapeared.

[Joshi]

I was mainly just annoyed with the giant gaping plot hole involvinge Herman, Carla, Otis and Meathook and all that happened in the first game. The game designers seemed to have spit on the first three games and just made up the plot as they wanted it thinking that we'll just go along with it.

 

That's what really pulls it out of the Monkey Island series, the fact that it really doesn't fit in with the stories of the first 3 games (Curse may not have been as good as the first 2, but whilst being a great game, it still managed to fit in nicely with the other 2 games save for the ending of MI2 which is understandable to say the least)

[smokes o' pot]

I felt like I was part of a sit-com not an adventure. Even CMI gave you a decent adventure!

[Udvarnoky]

Originally posted by Skinkie

I was always disapointed about the Giant Monkey Robot as I remember going in it the first time and ending up in the catacombs of Hell. Which mysteriously disapeared.

 

Yeah, that's weird, but I find such analysis of something like the giant monkey head to be laughable when you compare the head's changes to other "renovations" made to familiar places in the series.

 

Also, xalax, where do you get that the robot is supposed to be The Secret of Monkey Island? Don't tell me it's the title of the cutscene, because that was clearly a joke. The "secret" has become an ongoing joke in the series at this point, and I wouldn't be surpised if later installments of the series (assuming there are any) exploit it as well.

 

Originally posted by xalax

But if i had played the MI in a different order, my opinion would change a lot.

 

I find this curious. I know that earlier I said how nostalgia and the order one plays the series (In my case, the games were played in order) can have an affect on one's opinion, but if you're so sure that you would love the game more had you played it before the others, then you must recognize EMI's positive points. So, basically, you like EMI but can't admit it since you played it last? Hmm. Not a very sound argument against the game as far as I can tell.

 

Other than the 3D transition, the new "turn" the series took starting with CMI seems to have turned off a lot of MI fans. I still have trouble understanding why people can't just accept CMI and EMI as "real" sequels.

 

I can totally dig having a lot of respect and admiration for the genius who headed the original games, but seriously, let's get a grip here. He's not involved with Monkey Island anymore, he probably never will be, and there's enough doubt for us to believe that he's playing a colossal joke on us all by allowing people to buy into the "trilogy" charade. I guess it's one's own choice to be close-minded about the Gilbert situation and refuse to accept CMI and EMI as part of the series, but I think that's downright silly.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

I was mainly just annoyed with the giant gaping plot hole involvinge Herman, Carla, Otis and Meathook and all that happened in the first game. The game designers seemed to have spit on the first three games and just made up the plot as they wanted it thinking that we'll just go along with it.

 

I've admitted to being annoyed by the Herman backstory (although you can construct an insanely complicated story to make it valid), but what are the plot holes with Herman, Carla, Otis, and Meathook? Yes, EMI's story relies on your beating MI1 with sinking your ship and leaving the crew on Monkey Island (something which I didn't do until several run-throughs later), but that's not a big deal.

 

Also, spit on the first three games? EMI references the earlier games ten billion times more than CMI did. In fact, many of the game's jokes and plot points were obviously constructed so that those who had played the older games would get them. You can tell that Stemmle and Clark were aiming to please MI veterans, even if it meant alienating newcomers (ironically, it was generally the newcomers and not the fans who welcomed this game). Even if you think EMI somehow disrespected the first three installments, it's obvious that EMI recognizes them. A lot.

 

For the Herman/crew plot holes being what you're mainly annoyed by, you certainly have a pretty strong stance against the game, Joshi.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

[That's what really pulls it out of the Monkey Island series, the fact that it really doesn't fit in with the stories of the first 3 games (Curse may not have been as good as the first 2, but whilst being a great game, it still managed to fit in nicely with the other 2 games save for the ending of MI2 which is understandable to say the least)

 

I agree that CMI was wise to stay out of the iffy MI2 carnival material for the majority of the game, creating a new and original story that works wonderfully on it's own. EMI, on the other hand, took a different approach, and seemed to harken back to the previous games for references, jokes, puzzles, storyline advancements, etc., whenever it got the chance. I don't necessarily think it was a bad move, but a more difficult one to make work. EMI missteps on a few occasions (*cough* Herman *cough*) but how doesn't EMI fit with the stories?

[xalax]

Originally posted by Udvarnoky

Also, xalax, where do you get that the robot is supposed to be The Secret of Monkey Island? Don't tell me it's the title of the cutscene, because that was clearly a joke. The "secret" has become an ongoing joke in the series at this point, and I wouldn't be surpised if later installments of the series (assuming there are any) exploit it as well.

 

Well, I know that the "secret" of MI it was only to snare the attention of the people but I played it when i was a child and I was thinking about it all the time, and I continue thinking. And in EMI the guys of Lucas Arts insinuates that the secret of MI is the robot.

 

 

Originally posted by Udvarnoky

I find this curious. I know that earlier I said how nostalgia and the order one plays the series (In my case, the games were played in order) can have an affect on one's opinion, but if you're so sure that you would love the game more had you played it before the others, then you must recognize EMI's positive points. So, basically, you like EMI but can't admit it since you played it last? Hmm. Not a very sound argument against the game as far as I can tell.

 

As i said in the other messages, i really like EMI and i enjoyed played it, i think it's a very good game, but i prefer to think that is not a Monkey. OK i know, it has the same characters, the jokes the scenery but it has a problem, it doesn't agree with the previously games, it has BIG holes in the story (Herman , ejem). And Lechuck again!! I know, he's the bad guy of the serie, but we killed his soul, we killed his body (I'm not sure about this...) and we killed him as a devil, but he returned AGAIN (what the hell is going on?? Is he immortal?? It seems to be...).

But i'm going to answer your doubt, I said: " But if i had played the MI in a different order, my opinion would change a lot."

Yes, i'm not mad, if i had played first the 3 then the 4, and then the others, i wouldn't be able to identify the holes in the story so i'll probably think the EMI fits perfectly with the others three.

Well, that's my opinion and i know that Udvarnoky has another that is opposite to mine but i respect it.

(Sorry about the gramatical mistakes, I think this has to be my sign )

[Joshi]

Originally posted by Udvarnoky

I've admitted to being annoyed by the Herman backstory (although you can construct an insanely complicated story to make it valid), but what are the plot holes with Herman, Carla, Otis, and Meathook? Yes, EMI's story relies on your beating MI1 with sinking your ship and leaving the crew on Monkey Island (something which I didn't do until several run-throughs later), but that's not a big deal.

 

Also, spit on the first three games? EMI references the earlier games ten billion times more than CMI did. In fact, many of the game's jokes and plot points were obviously constructed so that those who had played the older games would get them. You can tell that Stemmle and Clark were aiming to please MI veterans, even if it meant alienating newcomers (ironically, it was generally the newcomers and not the fans who welcomed this game). Even if you think EMI somehow disrespected the first three installments, it's obvious that EMI recognizes them. A lot.

 

For the Herman/crew plot holes being what you're mainly annoyed by, you certainly have a pretty strong stance against the game, Joshi.

 

 

 

I agree that CMI was wise to stay out of the iffy MI2 carnival material for the majority of the game, creating a new and original story that works wonderfully on it's own. EMI, on the other hand, took a different approach, and seemed to harken back to the previous games for references, jokes, puzzles, storyline advancements, etc., whenever it got the chance. I don't necessarily think it was a bad move, but a more difficult one to make work. EMI missteps on a few occasions (*cough* Herman *cough*) but how doesn't EMI fit with the stories?

 

For a start, in MI1, if you sunk the ship, then Carla, Otis and Meathook get trapped on Monkey Island which is pretty much stated in the first half of EMI as what happened, which means you have to actually think that you came home with herman in MI1 so he shouldn't have actually been on MI again at the end of EMI. Yes, you could make up a huge outrageous story explaining why he was back, but then that would contradict Hermans story at the end of EMI, which in turn contradicted his story at the end of Mi1 where he descibes coming with that other guy who ends up hanged.

 

And yes, EMI did reference back to the previous games and I did respect that as a veteran gamer, I could get these jokes, but the whole point I'm saying is that 1), CMI could at least stand on it's own as a good adventure game. Now apart from Monkey kombat, so could EMI, but CMI did it better. Someone who had never played MI1 or 2 could quite easily pick up CMI and be entertained by it as apose to EMI where one would just get confused (although moreso if you have played the previous games). The reason I say it spat on the previous 3 games is because it didn't want to follow the story. The game designers thought the game would be better if it was like it was and didn't even think about making it fit in with the rest of the gamse story. Yes, it did reference then at some points, but in all, the fact that the story didn't fit was a bit too much.

[masterdebator]

I have to say I never played it, because of all of the dissapointed people who played EMI. I do know that I have friends who played CMI, and never played any other Monkey Island title and loved it. It happens to be my best friends favorite game (other than Unreal). I also know people who have only played EMI and they didn't want to give the others a chance. So in a word, I guess I really need to play the game before I can trully coment on it's successes and failures.

 

--MD

[pirate boy]

I thought bringing back Dominic for Guybrush was smart. A completely different Guybrush would've completely destroyed it.

 

I thought Ozzie was a reasonably worthy foe to an extent...

 

and I also thought the backgrounds tried to stay true reasonably so to the style set in Curse but they slightly rendered it.

[Udvarnoky]

Originally posted by Joshi

For a start, in MI1, if you sunk the ship, then Carla, Otis and Meathook get trapped on Monkey Island which is pretty much stated in the first half of EMI as what happened, which means you have to actually think that you came home with herman in MI1 so he shouldn't have actually been on MI again at the end of EMI. Yes, you could make up a huge outrageous story explaining why he was back, but then that would contradict Hermans story at the end of EMI, which in turn contradicted his story at the end of Mi1 where he descibes coming with that other guy who ends up hanged.

 

So in the end it all comes back to the Herman story. I've already voiced my complaints concerning it, so I'll bite my tongue and agree to disagree on this, suffice to say that I'm not willing to delve into the possibilites of how the H.T. Marley mess trickles back to screw up the crew being captive. You can create a complicated theory that fixes everything, even what you're pointing out, but the bottom line is that you can either choose to dwell on the Herman backstory and destroy any and all hope of enjoying much of the game, or you can attempt to make sense of it or put it aside.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

And yes, EMI did reference back to the previous games and I did respect that as a veteran gamer, I could get these jokes, but the whole point I'm saying is that 1), CMI could at least stand on it's own as a good adventure game. Now apart from Monkey kombat, so could EMI, but CMI did it better. Someone who had never played MI1 or 2 could quite easily pick up CMI and be entertained by it as apose to EMI where one would just get confused (although moreso if you have played the previous games). The reason I say it spat on the previous 3 games is because it didn't want to follow the story. The game designers thought the game would be better if it was like it was and didn't even think about making it fit in with the rest of the gamse story. Yes, it did reference then at some points, but in all, the fact that the story didn't fit was a bit too much.

 

Alright, I agree that to newcomers of a Monkey Island game CMI will probably be less confusing in some respects compared to EMI in that it doesn't rely as much on references to make you laugh, but I don't think it's very true that EMI is necessarily difficult for newcomers to pick up and enjoy. It's known that newcomers generally appreciated the game more than long-time fans did, so that says that they were able to enjoy the game on its own merits. I have no doubts that certain moments in the game may have caused them to scratch their heads, but EMI has its own great story, and I've seen it win over a few personal acquaintances to this series, even if they are left in the dark with a few in-jokes.

 

Again, disregarding Toothrot and his troublesome background, how doesn't EMI "fit in" with the story? You spent a few sentences saying that the designers didn't want it to fit in with the story, but you apparently forgot to explain how this is so.

[Joshi]

Well, it's hard to explain that whilst disregarding the herman thing, which I don't really like to dwell on, but to long time MI gamers, this is the kind of thing that sticks out and leaves you thinking about things way more than you should at that moment in the game when your main focus should be on the task in hand and not on the story and so on.

 

But also, there's basically the fact that it didn't really fit the style. Many would say CMI didn't either, but at least CMI was subtle with it's 20th cetntury placements, much like the first 2, as apose to EMI who's main story focused on corporate takeovers and de-pirating things. I guess we should call it a smart move that the reason we buy these games is because we like pirates, so lets have a villain who takes that all away, but it was done so badly that it simply annoyed me most of the time. Ozzy wasn't exactly a picnic either, when you play a game till the early hours of the morning, it's a little unerrving to hear a voice not unlike steve Erwin bouncing around in your head while you sleep.

 

By the end of it, all I can say is that EMI didn't do it for me like CMI did and indeed not at all like the first 2 did. The first 3 were all about curses and voodoo spells and pirates and so on and it was great. The first task given to you in EMI is to find family lawyers. There's no real sense of urgency or wanting to do this task.

 

I'm stop here for now and let you ponder on that. i know this post doesn't really seem like it's finished, but your gonna have to live with that for now.

[smokes o' pot]

Originally posted by Joshi

Well, it's hard to explain that whilst disregarding the herman thing, which I don't really like to dwell on, but to long time MI gamers, this is the kind of thing that sticks out and leaves you thinking about things way more than you should at that moment in the game when your main focus should be on the task in hand and not on the story and so on.

 

But also, there's basically the fact that it didn't really fit the style. Many would say CMI didn't either, but at least CMI was subtle with it's 20th cetntury placements, much like the first 2, as apose to EMI who's main story focused on corporate takeovers and de-pirating things. I guess we should call it a smart move that the reason we buy these games is because we like pirates, so lets have a villain who takes that all away, but it was done so badly that it simply annoyed me most of the time. Ozzy wasn't exactly a picnic either, when you play a game till the early hours of the morning, it's a little unerrving to hear a voice not unlike steve Erwin bouncing around in your head while you sleep.

 

By the end of it, all I can say is that EMI didn't do it for me like CMI did and indeed not at all like the first 2 did. The first 3 were all about curses and voodoo spells and pirates and so on and it was great. The first task given to you in EMI is to find family lawyers. There's no real sense of urgency or wanting to do this task.

 

I'm stop here for now and let you ponder on that. i know this post doesn't really seem like it's finished, but your gonna have to live with that for now.

 

A few good points there joshi. I think it was too big a jump in style and this is what upset most of the long-time Monkey fans.

[Udvarnoky]

Originally posted by Joshi

Well, it's hard to explain that whilst disregarding the herman thing, which I don't really like to dwell on, but to long time MI gamers, this is the kind of thing that sticks out and leaves you thinking about things way more than you should at that moment in the game when your main focus should be on the task in hand and not on the story and so on.

 

Err...I'd say that the story is certainly something the player should focus on. I do see what your saying, though, and I agree with you. Whether you can explain the Herman thing or not, that cutscene is a showstopper for fans, and not in a good way.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

But also, there's basically the fact that it didn't really fit the style. Many would say CMI didn't either, but at least CMI was subtle with it's 20th cetntury placements, much like the first 2, as apose to EMI who's main story focused on corporate takeovers and de-pirating things.

 

Oh, come on. Saying that anachronisms somehow ruin the style is ridiculous. The first three games had their share of "20th century placements," and I wouldn't exactly call them subtle (Actually, when I first played The Secret of Monkey Island, I imagined that the game took place in a modern times - pirates of the 90s). I suppose it depends on your definition of subtle. I personally didn't find anything low-key about vending machines, neon lights, electrical wiring and so on. Yes, EMI most definitely raised this concept to a much higher degree, but it didn't bother me. Also, to say EMI is mainly about corporate takeovers is extremely misleading even if it does play a major part in the story, since you'd be ignoring the entire voodoo/Ultimate Insult/LeChuck aspect.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

I guess we should call it a smart move that the reason we buy these games is because we like pirates, so lets have a villain who takes that all away, but it was done so badly that it simply annoyed me most of the time. Ozzy wasn't exactly a picnic either, when you play a game till the early hours of the morning, it's a little unerrving to hear a voice not unlike steve Erwin bouncing around in your head while you sleep.

 

Yes, it is was a smart move, because it complimented elements of the previous games and made insults a key part of the story. I appreciate your opinion that you thought it was done badly and simply annoying, but unless you elaborate on it I can't possibly figure out exactly what you're referring to.

 

Ooh, he had an annoying voice. I guess you just hate exaggerated Australian accents. Not to sound like an ass, but that's hardly a decent reason to back up calling Ozzie a bad villain.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

By the end of it, all I can say is that EMI didn't do it for me like CMI did and indeed not at all like the first 2 did. The first 3 were all about curses and voodoo spells and pirates and so on and it was great. The first task given to you in EMI is to find family lawyers. There's no real sense of urgency or wanting to do this task.

 

Please. You are really understating the voodoo aspect of EMI. It's very much about pirates and curses and voodoo spells.

 

The Ultimate Insult is only a powerful voodoo talisman capable of unspeakable powers, and it's introduced as soon as you freakin' get to Lucre Island. Yeah, you're right, its plays a MUCH smaller role than in the other games . Except for when the ring is actually put on Elaine's finger and the Voodoo Lady explanation following it, the voodoo element of CMI didn't really come into play until the end, and I'd say that it was overall more subdued than in EMI. And saying that EMI lacks voodoo elements because you have to find lawyers early in the game is like saying Monkey1 was lacking in voodoo elements because you must first complete the three trials. All of the games feature something very important concerning voodoo, and EMI is no exception.

 

No sense of urgency? Then neither do the other games. Seriously, did you not play the part of the game that had you trying to assemble an Ultimate Insult while making sure LeChuck and Ozzie don't get it? Or what about escaping from Monkey Island before Ozzie and LeChuck, ya know, destroy everbody's souls?

 

 

 

Joshi, EMI is my least favorite of the series as well, but for me the games are all truly great, and it's like ranking my four favorite movies. Obviously, I'm not trying to call your opinion wrong because I disagree with some of your reasons for disliking EMI, but I can't say that many of them really make sense to me.

[Joshi]

obviously you're entitled to your opinion, all I'm saying is that if I were to rank my four favorite games, the first three monkey islands would be up there along with something else, like grim fandango or broken sword or whatever. In a lot of respects, yes, I did like EMI, at points it had quite funny jokes and the voice acting was quite above par.

 

But in the end, I can't say it took me in much the same way the other 3 did.

 

First of all, The voodoo elements and piratey things in EMI were very much downplayed by the who "Austrailian came and took my land" storyline. Admittedly, yes, it was there, and very much so, but it was still very much a supporting character in the main plot of, again, some australian coming along and doing his naughty deed, yes, it was with the aid of a voodoo talisman, but it wasn't as much to take over the word as to get rid of pirates. Yes, this is the kind of thing we should be afraid of and is a good reason to play the game, as you'd be stopping this and we don't want it to happen, but to me, it just didn't feel like a pirate game as much as it felt like some corporate game set in pirate times.

 

And granted, it was a little petty of me to say that Ozzies voice was what made him a bad villian, but in the end, I liked Lechuck, stupid as he is, at least he could be respected as a villian, but again, ozzie was just plain annoying.

 

Noted that most of the game is about voodoo and pirates, and I suppose that on a technical ration, there was more of it then the corporate crap that i suppose was thrown in as a difference from the other games in order to make it fresh, which I'm all for, but for it me, rather just spoilt it for me. Like I said, your first main focus in the game is to stop someone knocking down your house by going to find lawyers. It may just be me, but there was no urgency here for me, it's like, if the house gets knocked down, we can always just go find another, no big deal. this may seem slightly petty of me, but it's not as bad as say, in CMI where you have to get out of the pirate hold and save elaine (much more pirately I'd say) or in MI1 where you want to become a pirate.

 

Again, it's all about opinion, I did'nt like the game as much as the others, it was a nice game apart from a few things, but certainly not as good as the other MI games.

[Udvarnoky]

Originally posted by Joshi

First of all, The voodoo elements and piratey things in EMI were very much downplayed by the who "Austrailian came and took my land" storyline. Admittedly, yes, it was there, and very much so, but it was still very much a supporting character in the main plot of, again, some australian coming along and doing his naughty deed, yes, it was with the aid of a voodoo talisman, but it wasn't as much to take over the word as to get rid of pirates. Yes, this is the kind of thing we should be afraid of and is a good reason to play the game, as you'd be stopping this and we don't want it to happen, but to me, it just didn't feel like a pirate game as much as it felt like some corporate game set in pirate times.

 

I feel it's the other way around: the whole "Ozzie buying out everything" deal served as sort of an intro to the real story - The Ultimate Insult. Also, Ozzie's plot might as well have been to take over the world, because the piratey locales of all the games are the "world" we love to experience. Not to mention LeChuck's goal of not only wanting to marry Elaine but "make the sea red with the blood of my enemies" indicates to me that cooperatively, LeChuck and Ozzie were planning to do a lot more than make some Planet Threepwoods. Again, I'm not so sure I accept that the series takes place in actual pirate times with some anachronisms thrown in for laughs, but that's for another discussion.

 

 

Originally posted by Joshi

And granted, it was a little petty of me to say that Ozzies voice was what made him a bad villian, but in the end, I liked Lechuck, stupid as he is, at least he could be respected as a villian, but again, ozzie was just plain annoying.

 

Well, then, you must have been delighted by LeChuck's big comeback at the end. Personally, I also will take LeChuck over Ozzie any day, but he got the job done, and I thought he was nefarious enough. Besides, it's not like LeChuck was Ozzie's little submissive sidekick, despite the fact that he was supposedly working for him. EMI seemed to want to make LeChuck more goofy than ever, but he's still a great villain.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

Like I said, your first main focus in the game is to stop someone knocking down your house by going to find lawyers. It may just be me, but there was no urgency here for me, it's like, if the house gets knocked down, we can always just go find another, no big deal. this may seem slightly petty of me, but it's not as bad as say, in CMI where you have to get out of the pirate hold and save elaine (much more pirately I'd say) or in MI1 where you want to become a pirate.

 

You have to give the story a chance to set itself up. The lawyer stuff only lasted for a short time, and then the big story came in. To me it's no less urgent to prevent someone from blowing up Guybrush's house then completing some trials at any pace you wish (What urgency did Guybrush have to do anything in Monkey1 until LeChuck kidnapped Elaine?). Also, EMI happens to start off in the middle of a huge ship-to-ship cannon/swordfight. That sorta destroys your whole stance that the beginning wasn't piratey compared to CMI (in fact, thinking of it, the first dilemma of CMI and EMI are quite similar).

[Joshi]

Meh, I suppose we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. we obviously think alike on some things and not on others and I doubt more arguing will help matters, plus it's getting rather tiresome now.

 

Peace

Joshi

[Udvarnoky]

Fair enough, Joshi, but if you don't mind, I'd really like to spend some time coming up with theories making sense of the Herman/H.T. Marley backstory. I've been trying to do it ever since EMI came out, and I know people have doing it for awhile. I'm convinced right now that the story wasn't a half-assed attempt at an explanation that Clark and Stemmle concocted in five minutes, even though this was my initial reaction.

 

At this moment I don't believe that Herman and H.T. Marley are different people. Here's my explanation (not sure if it's error-proof) of how EMI may work while not going against any of the other games:

 

Some 20 years ago, H.T. Marley (or Grandpa Marley, if you will) was the Governor of the Tri-Island area and had a grand-daughter named Elaine. Marley experienced all sorts of adventures on the high seas, most notably his discovery of Big Whoop along with three other pirates (Lindy, Rum Rogers, Rapp Scallion). After they found the treasure of Big Whoop, they split the map into four pieces and scattered them about the Tri-Island Area in hopes of preventing anyone from finding it again. After that, LeChuck intended to kill every member of the Big Whoop crew (as fully described by LeChuck in the "Spider Monkey" chapter of CMI). Marley eventually retires, but ends his newfound peace when he decides to engage in a dangerous boat race off the coast of Australia. The night before the big boat race, The America Cup, Marley gets drunk in a bar and finds an Australian, Ozzie Mandrill, who is sad that no one is willing to do business with him. Marley decides to entertain Mandrill with tales of his adventures. Since he's drunk, he foolishly tells Ozzie about secrets such as Big Whoop, The Ultimate Insult, and the lucrative developing possibilities of the Caribbean (all this is said by Marley/Toothrot in EMI in the controversial cutscene). The next day, during the boat race, LeChuck creates a giant whirlpool to drown Marley. Ozzie (for whatever evil reason) pushes Marley into the whirlpool (others say that LeChuck didn't make the whirlpool, and simply took credit for Marley's supposed death. My idea is that LeChuck created the freakish whirlpool, assuming Marley would end up drowining in it, and Ozzie, seeing it, decided to push Marley into it. In any event, the end result is the same). LeChuck thinks he succeeded in his plan to kill Marley as he had all the other crew members, but strangely the whirlpool landed Marley and his shattered ship on the other side of the world, and no one ever hears of Marley again (as the Big Whoop book of MI2 explains, his disappearance in the boat race was the last time anyone ever saw him). It is at this point that Marley loses his memory. He goes by the name Herman Toothrot after the remaining letters on his accordian, and apparently spends a great deal of time under this false identity. At some point, he goes to Melee Island, and he and his friend purchase a ship from Stan called the Sea Monkey and sail off, hoping to become the first humans to discover the Secret of Monkey Island. The story of how the two reached the island is documented in the Captain's log that you can read on the ship in MI1. After the two arrive on the island, the captain tragically hangs himself while trying to put up a swing. Herman, who somehow has a ship (hey, if that's too far a stretch for you, you can blame it on MI1, not EMI - perhaps he built a new ship over the years he spent stranded), and remains "trapped" on the island. The natives are a nuisance and he waits for someone to rescue him (and the Sea Monkey was supposedly brought back to Melee with a crew of chimps). Enter Guybrush and his crew: Carla, Otis, and Meathook. Guybrush sinks the Sea Monkey with a boulder and does all the other stuff that happens in MI1 on Monkey Island. He discovers that Herman has his own hermit ship, and the two sail back to Melee Island in it, leaving the crew behind. The crew somehow escapes from Monkey Island (they never reveal how, as we know from the ongoing joke in EMI) and Herman returns to Monkey Island, now resigned to become a full-fledged hermit, even to the point where he willingly destroys his ship (as he explains in EMI). Guybrush finds him again on Dinky Island in MI2 (in EMI Herman wonders how he got there), because there is a tunnel between Dinky and Monkey. In any event, Herman spent quite some time on Monkey Island, seeing the natives leave, the catacombs seal, the carnival explode, making a gold mine, etc. At some point he hits his head on a milk bottle, and that's when he loses his memory again and can't even remember himself as Herman.

 

And this is the state that Guybrush finds him in in EMI. First, he whacks him with a coconut, which only makes Herman remember a few months or so of the past. Once he hits him with that milk bottle, though, Herman remembers all his time on Monkey Island, his situation with the cannibals, the carnival, etc. The milk bottle pretty much wakes up "Herman Toothrot," if you will. It's when Guybrush hits him with the accordion that Horatio totally regains his memory, remembers everything, and tells it all to Guybrush.

 

So there.

 

 

What I like about the above theory is that it mostly depends on what all four games tell us rather than assumptions and having to make up more explanation. What threw me off when I first played EMI four years ago is that I thought it was implied that Marley washed up on Monkey after the whirlpool incident. Rewatching the scene, I see now that this is never said, nor implied. The only thing you really have to assume is that Marley kept the busted accordion with him up to the point where he became stranded on Monkey Island. For the story to make sense it does require a bit of thought, but it has also been over-analyzed.

 

Okay, now someone hurry up and tell me the holes so I can make a new theory and fill them up.

[sith_master2000]

I don't think you have missed anything out, that seems to be the real story of H.T Marley. With your theory it explains how come in the Captain's Journal (in SMI) why it says Herman Toothrot. I recon you did a better job of telling the story in that one post than LEC did in EMI.

[Udvarnoky]

The one thing that really gets to me is that stupid accordian. After you hit Marley with the milk bottle in EMI, he vaguely remembers 20 years ago, washing ashore on Monkey Island and finding the accordian, which he couldn't play. My way of viewing it is his "washing ashore" is either referring to he and his friend arriving on the Sea Monkey or his return to Monkey Island after the end of MI1 (just because he had a boat doesn't mean the journey was a safe one). One can not believe that he washed up on MI after the whirlpool incident and expect the story to make sense. I don't think it's too far a stretch, though, since even after Guybrush conks him he's still dillusional, not quite remembering anything before his MI days (obviously, the reason the designers had Marley mention the accordian was so that the player would find it and hit him with that, unlocking his complete memory). Also, by that point, he wouldn't have remembered the accordian that he either brought there (if you believe he's referring to his arrival on the Sea Monkey with his friend when he says he washes up) or left there (if you believed that by "washing up" he's referring to his return trip to the island). If they wouldn't have put "20 years ago" it would be infinitely easier for me to swallow. Still, all I have to accept is that the Toothrot Sea Monkey journey took place 20 years ago, at some point after the boat race.

 

All in all, I don't think it's impossible to find a logical solution. The biggest problem Clark and Stemmle faced was having this huge plot twist with enough explanation to appease old fans but short enough and to the point that it wasn't a show-stopper for the newcomers...and have it make sense from the standpoint of the puzzles. I mean, you can tell by looking at the cutscene that they were trying to explain only what they had to in as little time as possible and keeping it interesting (and having Marley constantly wack Guybrush with his cane for good measure).

[Udvarnoky]

Seriously, can no one negate my theory? I know these Herman explanations died down awhile back, but if no one can prove otherwise, am I to assume that I've "filled" the infamous plot hole?

[Skinkie]

When I did it there was some bizarre error and I had to hit him with the cocanut like 20 times in a row before it recognized it and let me continue on. That really pissed me off. No comment on stiry of it.

[sith_master2000]

Originally posted by Skinkie

When I did it there was some bizarre error and I had to hit him with the cocanut like 20 times in a row before it recognized it and let me continue on. That really pissed me off. No comment on stiry of it.

I have a theory as too why that happened: Did you throw anything at Herman/Marley other than the coconut, bottle and accordian? I'm not sure why but if you do it screws the whole thing up and you have to re-load, (or in your case take a while to get fixed.)

[Joshi]

Originally posted by Udvarnoky

Seriously, can no one negate my theory? I know these Herman explanations died down awhile back, but if no one can prove otherwise, am I to assume that I've "filled" the infamous plot hole?

 

Many people have 'filled the infamous plot hole' with theories just like and very different to yours, it's just that in my opinion, too much thought has gone into something that, at the end of the day, was meant to be a comedy, not a psychological thriller. People went in playing this for entertainment value, not the opportunity to fill giant plot holes. At least the thinker at the end of MI2 came about at the end of MI2, as apose to in the middle where mot people spent the best part of the end of EMI in total confusion (and the monkey robot didn't help matters).

 

*cough*

 

yeah, I know I said I'd shut up, but it had to be said.

[Udvarnoky]

Psychological thriller?