Did Anakin bring balance to the Force?

[Darth_Malak02]

I for one think it was. Otherwise you believe the narrow view of the Old Jedi Order, as opposed to the open-minded view of the New Jedi Order. What they sought was not balance, but the supremacy of the Light Side. Balance is an equilibrium of light and dark, good and evil, so to speak.

 

You are correct for balance in the force but you are incorrect about the prophecy. The NJO was founded on looser principals than the OJO, marriage for example. balance of the force means that 1: you can openly use both sides of the force in battle when nessesary. (Video games) and 2: Essential things for any person such as love, hate, anger or happiness and helping are committed to Jedi principal's...without Vader, Luke would not have recreated the order...which would mean that the second way to balance the force would never happen...

[Alkonium]

Also, if I'm wrong, Anakin would have to have eliminated more than just the Sith, as they are not the only Dark Side Cult out there.

[Kurgan]

Right, but these other "dark side cults" are unknown in the movies. And anyway, according to the EU Vader and Palps actually TRAIN more lower level Dark Siders and don't kill them off or try to use them against the other Sith for a coupe (Emperor's Hands, Inquisitors, Imperial Royal Guards, certain Dark Troopers, Dark Jedi, etc).

 

Basically, the EU undermines what we see in the movies because it posits that dozens, if not hundreds of Jedi survived the purges (when the movies strongly imply only Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan survived of "their religion" and then Luke of course). It also undermines the movies by positing that plenty of Dark Siders continue to exist after Anakin's death (and not just people that turned after he died).

 

But the EU authors can't be blamed for establishing this history, because Lucas didn't give us a clear picture of how the Jedi Purges played out, nor did he tell anyone about "the Prophecy." This was all revealed gradually over the course of the prequels. So they had some wiggle room before, much less now.

 

The only reason they are keeping these extra Dark and Light siders around is because it's so deeply entrenched in the fabric of the EU. Plus and they want some way to make stories about Jedi and Sith (even if they don't call them "Sith") to make people remember cool parts of the movies to sell products so they need some excuse to do so.

 

It's kind of like in Superman comics how Kal-El (Supes) was supposed to be the only survivor of the destruction of the planet Krypton. Well, except for Supergirl... and Krypto the Superdog... and the bottle city of Kandor... and General Zod and his minions... and then they threw in the whole Bizarro world, etc.

 

This is fine when I'm playing a video game and I just want to be a Jedi. Make up some BS about me finding a lightsaber in a garage or getting infused with the Force somehow. Who cares? I just want to swing my glowstick around and choke people telekinetically! Make it so, I want to be entertained Star Wars style. But when they do this kind of crap over and over in a storyline that's supposed to be canon, it gets old fast. That's a common criticism of the EU, but then you wonder how hard it is to get around it and still seem like you're telling a "Star Wars" story. Just what makes a SW story, a SW story? Is it the space ships? The characters? The super weapons? The Force? Lightsabers? The aliens and exotic planets? The music? What? So a lot of the early EU ended up either straying completely from everything we knew and being too "out there" or it just felt like it was copying the movies or undermining them. Not all, but it's a common problem.

 

So now we're stuck with the prophecy. Maybe it was BS, but Lucas seems to feel that by his actions in ROTJ, Vader brings balance to the Force.

 

So I guess we're to assume all those dark side adepts out there were either no real threat to the galaxy, they all arose sometime after the Death Star II blew, or they were dead already by this time. Otherwise we're faced with a contradiction (the prophecy is fulfilled! 1% of the Darksiders eliminated!), and in the case of contradictions in canon, the movies win.

 

If we assume the Taoist interpretation (which disagrees with Lucas's stated intent so I disregard it) that you have an equal number of Light and Dark practicioners for balance, then Anakin actually unbalanced the Force when he died. Or else Luke ruined it by starting up his New Jedi Order. As long as they keep killing "Dark Jedi" then they're fighting the prophecy. So who's the Chosen One know? Why make a prophecy about this one event if it's just something you have to do again every week?

 

This "they use both sides of the force" thing is a fine interpretation but again, not Lucas's intention. Why bother with Lucas's intention? Because he's the one who came up with the whole "prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force" thing in the first place (along with the Sith rule of two and all the rules of the Jedi Order and Anakin being called the Chosen One). So he gets to define what it means... The games are contradictory about letting you use the Dark Side and not being "dark." Depends on which game and which game mode. In JA and JK2 you're restricted to one side of the Force or the other in MP, but in SP they mix and "Dark Side" is based only on your choices. In MotS they're mixed in both modes. In JK1 it's based on your choices and your powers, and in MP it's sharply divided except at lower levels. Game mechanics also define a power as "Dark" or "Light" since in the movies we see Yoda use lightning and Luke use grip, and yet both are considered not to be Dark Siders.

 

And yet people continue to argue of course that neither event actually happened (that Yoda somehow contained and redistributed the lightning without actually using it himself and without anger, and the Luke just made the Gammoreans THINK they were choking and go to sleep without killing them), but whatever!

[Prime]

I have, and I see that a balance between the open-minded view of the NJO, and the narrow-minded view of the OJO.

They use the open-minded view of the NJO in terms of the freedoms for the jedi (marriage and such), but not in terms of the moral and "there is no dark side" views of the Force, which is what I was refering to in the "balance" context.

 

balance of the force means that 1: you can openly use both sides of the force in battle when nessesary. (Video games)

But keep in mind that only the games' stories themselves are generally considered canon (on a case by case basis), not gameplay mechanics. Thus, the ability to use both sides in a game does not reflect the overall EU storyline, and even different games conflict with each other anyway. Gameplay is the most important factor in this instance (as it should be).

 

and 2: Essential things for any person such as love, hate, anger or happiness and helping are committed to Jedi principal's...

I'm confused about what you are saying here. Anger and hate are specifically excluded from a Jedi's principles, and the use of such emotions goes against the Jedi code.

 

without Vader, Luke would not have recreated the order...which would mean that the second way to balance the force would never happen...

But the Force exists and is in balance regardless of whether the Jedi exist or not. As long as Vader destroyed the Emperor he would have fulfilled the prophecy, regardless of whether Luke survived or not.

 

Where do people get the idea that the balance of the Force is related to the number of Force users? What are people basing this on?

 

Also, if I'm wrong, Anakin would have to have eliminated more than just the Sith, as they are not the only Dark Side Cult out there.

In the EU yes, in the film world no. Which as Kurgan said shows why the EU introduces all sorts of problems if you try and bring it into the film world. But that isn't really necessary, since Lucas has explained that the EU is a parallel universe that does not infringe on the movies, and vice versa. But that also means that the EU can't really be used to prove points about the films.

 

The only reason they are keeping these extra Dark and Light siders around is because it's so deeply entrenched in the fabric of the EU. Plus and they want some way to make stories about Jedi and Sith (even if they don't call them "Sith") to make people remember cool parts of the movies to sell products so they need some excuse to do so.

Which again is a good reason why the two universes are considered seperate. It provides a means to create a wider range of stories.

 

So now we're stuck with the prophecy. Maybe it was BS, but Lucas seems to feel that by his actions in ROTJ, Vader brings balance to the Force.

Which shows that the "by the numbers" interpretation of the prophecy has to be incorrect. But then again, I don't see how that view arose in the first place.

 

The games are contradictory about letting you use the Dark Side and not being "dark." Depends on which game and which game mode. In JA and JK2 you're restricted to one side of the Force or the other in MP, but in SP they mix and "Dark Side" is based only on your choices. In MotS they're mixed in both modes. In JK1 it's based on your choices and your powers, and in MP it's sharply divided except at lower levels.

Which is fine since gameplay is the focus in this case. The mechanics are not canon anyway and so do not directly reflect how the universe works. But as long is they are fun, that is the key.

[Kurgan]

PS: You could also say that in Jedi Academy Kyle Katarn tells you in the game's storyline that you can use both "Dark" and "Light" powers because no power is actually "dark" or "light" it's just how you use it. So there's something that's not a strict game mechanic. Of course you could argue that Kyle is just mistaken in this point of course!

[Prime]

PS: You could also say that in Jedi Academy Kyle Katarn tells you in the game's storyline that you can use both "Dark" and "Light" powers because no power is actually "dark" or "light" it's just how you use it. So there's something that's not a strict game mechanic. Of course you could argue that Kyle is just mistaken in this point of course!

True enough. I believe lucas licensing mentioned that games (and parts thereof?) are taken on a case by case basis. Perhaps Kyle is only explaining the gameplay mechanism?

[Kurgan]

Perhaps. You can choose/use Dark Side powers exclusively in the game and yet according to the storyline you remain on the "light side." And killing allied NPC's at best will make you "fail" the mission, but won't say you turned to the Dark Side, iirc! The only real way to turn is to

attack Rosh after he surrenders

near the end of the game.

 

Interesting that Lucas Liscensing clarified that point, but it's an important one as many of us have suspected over the years, since all the game plots can't realistically be reconciled with the movies.

[Kurgan]

Wow, we are SO pulling Godwin's Law.

 

 

 

XDD

 

Is the comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Empire really necessary?

 

Considering Lucas himself makes the comparison, I think it's a valid one.

[El Sitherino]

And the fact that he took most of the Empire stuff from World War II related films and stories.

 

Hell, where do you think he got the name "Stormtroopers" from?

[Kryllith]

If we assume the Taoist interpretation (which disagrees with Lucas's stated intent so I disregard it) that you have an equal number of Light and Dark practicioners for balance, then Anakin actually unbalanced the Force when he died. Or else Luke ruined it by starting up his New Jedi Order. As long as they keep killing "Dark Jedi" then they're fighting the prophecy. So who's the Chosen One know? Why make a prophecy about this one event if it's just something you have to do again every week?

 

I prefer the Taoist view, but I think arguing for it places too much emphasis on numbers. It's not a matter of how many people are Jedi and how many are Sith (or Light and Dark), it's a matter of how much positive or negative influence is being applied. You might have 1 very powerful Sith and 3 moderately powerful Jedi and have the balance of power be roughly equal. Having said that, the death of Anakin wouldn't necessitate unbalancing the Force, and it's possible that his death would even be required to keep it in balance. Darth had a lot of evil in him, and his sacrifice might have been enough to balance him or even making him somewhat light, but if doesn't die then it's not really a sacrifice. In any case, we're left with Luke, who frankly I see as being gray than light or dark. His heart's in the right place but he does give into his fear and his anger and he does use dark side powers (force choke and calling on the darkside). Heck, from what we see he probably uses the Dark side as much as the Light which put him in the middle, hence the balance remains.

 

I think the real trick was what Quigon was preaching in the first movie, the need to follow the will of the living Force. Nature, essentially the Force serves to balance itself, and if the balance was shifted into the light then I've no problem with the Force taking in active role in the creation of Anakin specifically to decimate the Jedi to a point where the dark/light use is relatively equal. If Quigon is to be believed, the will of the Force is what's important, not the mandates of neither the Jedi nor Sith code/laws. Heck, even Obiwan points out Quigon's opposition to following the Jedi laws. Yoda is the one that bring up fear when talking to Anakin because he runs the council; Quigon never even mentions it, but simply indicates that one must quiet the mind in order to listen to what the Force has to say.

 

Having said all that, however, I've no problem with George's interpretation (that the Sith cause the imbalance as other's have said, though I've not heard it from George's mouth since I've not viewed all the commentaries). It's his story afterall, so he can tell it however he wants. Doesn't mean I think it's the more interesting one though.

 

Kryllith

[Prime]

It's not a matter of how many people are Jedi and how many are Sith (or Light and Dark), it's a matter of how much positive or negative influence is being applied. You might have 1 very powerful Sith and 3 moderately powerful Jedi and have the balance of power be roughly equal.

But the prophecy says the Chosen One will destroy the Sith. Isn't that contradictory if there are 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith? How does that bring balance in that case?

 

Having said that, the death of Anakin wouldn't necessitate unbalancing the Force, and it's possible that his death would even be required to keep it in balance. Darth had a lot of evil in him, and his sacrifice might have been enough to balance him or even making him somewhat light, but if doesn't die then it's not really a sacrifice.

So you are saying is is only "sort of" redeemed?

 

Luke, who frankly I see as being gray than light or dark. His heart's in the right place but he does give into his fear and his anger and he does use dark side powers (force choke and calling on the darkside). Heck, from what we see he probably uses the Dark side as much as the Light which put him in the middle, hence the balance remains.

But at the end he turns away from the dark side, which was the point of the OT. He sees at the end that he was starting to follow his father's path, and turns away from it. In the end he isn't "gray" at all.

 

I think the real trick was what Quigon was preaching in the first movie, the need to follow the will of the living Force. Nature, essentially the Force serves to balance itself, and if the balance was shifted into the light then I've no problem with the Force taking in active role in the creation of Anakin specifically to decimate the Jedi to a point where the dark/light use is relatively equal.

How do you define the Living Force? From the Making of the Episode 1, the Living Force "makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera". What does this have to do with overall balance? The Living Force focuses on the "here and now", not on the overall cosmic state of the universe. That is the domain of the Unifying Force, which Qui-Gon didn't care as much about.

 

If Quigon is to be believed, the will of the Force is what's important, not the mandates of neither the Jedi nor Sith code/laws. Heck, even Obiwan points out Quigon's opposition to following the Jedi laws.

Qui-Gon was a maverick, but I think it is a stretch to say he didn't care about Jedi laws or the code. In fact, while he disagrees with some of the council's decisions, he does abide by them.

 

For example, when he says he will take Anakin as a padawan and the council says you can't have more than one, he indicates that Obi-Wan is ready for the Trials and so won't be his padawan anymore. After Yoda says no deal, Qui-Gon says tells Anakin that he isn't allowed to train him directly. In both cases, he did not say, "**** the council and the Jedi laws, I'm going to do what I want because the Force tells me to."

 

So I don't think it was fair to say that he didn't think the Jedi laws were important. He merely had disagreements with the council on the proper course of action from time to time.

 

Yoda is the one that bring up fear when talking to Anakin because he runs the council; Quigon never even mentions it, but simply indicates that one must quiet the mind in order to listen to what the Force has to say.

Qui-Gon does mention that, "the boys future is uncertain, he is not dangerous." However, in the end we see that Yoda was right and Anakin did have much fear in him. It can be argued why that was the case...

[Darth_Malak02]

the force is balance...how you use it isn't...

[Kryllith]

But the prophecy says the Chosen One will destroy the Sith. Isn't that contradictory if there are 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith? How does that bring balance in that case?

 

It's been a little while since I've seen the movies now, but I recall the Prophecy focusing on bringing balance to the Force, at least that's what Windu and Yoda talk about when Quigon mentions the vergence. I don't recall anyone in the movies specifically saying that the chosen would destroy the Sith (though I could be misremembering). Besides, even if the Jedi believed that what the Chosen One was supposed to do, Yoda pretty much admits in RotS that the Counsel may have misinterpreted the Prophecy.

 

So you are saying is is only "sort of" redeemed?

I'm saying he made a concious choice to defy the Emperor for the love of his son. The elimination of the Emperor doesn't necessarily cancel out all the Darkness within Vader. The choice puts him on the right path, and had he continued to survived and continued to live out his life then yeah, I could see him being back on the light side. I think his sacrifice was sufficient to "redeem" him, to heal him spiritually, which is why we originally see him as being whole in the original ending of RotJ. Btw, this is one of the reason I hate the new ending, the idea that his life from the time he became Vader just was undone and we see him when he was young... seems to me it belittles his fall and the importance of his choice to save Luke.

 

But at the end he turns away from the dark side, which was the point of the OT. He sees at the end that he was starting to follow his father's path, and turns away from it. In the end he isn't "gray" at all.

 

Same as above, pretty much. Sure he chooses not to go to the Dark Side, but that doesn't necessarily erase all the times he's used the Dark Side powers nor all the times he's let his fear and anger control him. So he didn't become a Sith, that doesn't make him a Saint. The difference here is you seem to want to argue in absolutes while I want to argue the shades of gray. I'd say Luke has a bit to make up for if he's going to be all nice and shiny, but unfortunately we don't see what happens to him next (in the movies that is).

 

How do you define the Living Force? From the Making of the Episode 1, the Living Force "makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera". What does this have to do with overall balance? The Living Force focuses on the "here and now", not on the overall cosmic state of the universe. That is the domain of the Unifying Force, which Qui-Gon didn't care as much about.

I may be mistaken in my interpretation of the Living Force, as I've not watched the making of (or if I haven't I don't remember that part). My take is that Quigon believed that Force users should follow the will of the Force, that they should quiet their minds to hear what the Force was trying to say to them and then carry out its desires/commands. Granted he used the Force to his own ends, and he did serve the Jedi cause, but ultimately it seems that he was more concerned with actually serving the Force than serving those who developed codas for bending the Force to their own will, be it for good or evil.

 

Qui-Gon was a maverick, but I think it is a stretch to say he didn't care about Jedi laws or the code. In fact, while he disagrees with some of the council's decisions, he does abide by them.

 

For example, when he says he will take Anakin as a padawan and the council says you can't have more than one, he indicates that Obi-Wan is ready for the Trials and so won't be his padawan anymore. After Yoda says no deal, Qui-Gon says tells Anakin that he isn't allowed to train him directly. In both cases, he did not say, "**** the council and the Jedi laws, I'm going to do what I want because the Force tells me to."

 

Ties into my previous answer. Quigon was a Jedi, so he did follow orders, and I'm not saying that he didn't care about the laws or code, but that he probably felt that the Force itself should be the ultimate guide. I'd like to have seen his character develop more and see what path he might have chosen in the later movies, but unfortunately he died too soon. As for training Anakin, I believe Quigon respects the council enough to follow the letter of the law, if not the spirit. I'm willing to bet that had he survived though, he would have continued to push for Anakin's training. Heck, even Yoda concedes to Obiwan that one of the reasons he was willing to allow Obiwan to train Anakin was because he didn't want Obiwan to share Quigon's defiance.

[Prime]

I don't recall anyone in the movies specifically saying that the chosen would destroy the Sith (though I could be misremembering).

I believe Kenobi asks, "Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?" To which Windu responds, "So the prophecy says."

 

Besides, even if the Jedi believed that what the Chosen One was supposed to do, Yoda pretty much admits in RotS that the Counsel may have misinterpreted the Prophecy.

I think what he is wondering about is the fact that they know the Sith are in existence but Anakin does not appear to be on the path to destroying them. There is nothing to imply that he is thinking, "Whoops, maybe the prophecy said Jedi and not Sith."

 

I'm saying he made a concious choice to defy the Emperor for the love of his son. The elimination of the Emperor doesn't necessarily cancel out all the Darkness within Vader.

What do you mean by cancel out. Cancelling it out with what?

 

The choice puts him on the right path, and had he continued to survived and continued to live out his life then yeah, I could see him being back on the light side. I think his sacrifice was sufficient to "redeem" him, to heal him spiritually, which is why we originally see him as being whole in the original ending of RotJ.

Since he is a force ghost, we know he has been redeemed and gone back to the light. He has already reached that point at his death.

 

Btw, this is one of the reason I hate the new ending, the idea that his life from the time he became Vader just was undone and we see him when he was young... seems to me it belittles his fall and the importance of his choice to save Luke.

I couldn't agree more.

 

Sure he chooses not to go to the Dark Side, but that doesn't necessarily erase all the times he's used the Dark Side powers nor all the times he's let his fear and anger control him.

But there isn't really a tally of all things that he has done and a total sum that determines whether he is a servant of the dark side or not. Luke had started to submit to the temptation of the dark side, and starts to go down that path. At the end he resists that tempation and escapes that hold and follows the "light side".

 

So he didn't become a Sith, that doesn't make him a Saint.

It doesn't really have anything to do with being a saint. I has more to do with how you are using the force and calling upon the dark side. Not using the dark side and following the Jedi way does not make him the Pope. With a tally system surely it would be impossible for Vader to ever be redeemed and return to the light as we see in ROTJ, considering he was at least in part responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order, killing who knows how many people on all sides of the conflict, and so on. In that case simply saving his son would not account for what we see.

 

The difference here is you seem to want to argue in absolutes while I want to argue the shades of gray.

To some extent. To be fair, Lucas explains that he has set up a mythical universe that does use the traditional concepts of good and evil that do not necessarily reflect how our world operates. Really, you are either on the path of the light, or more accurately, not corrupting the Force to achieve your own ends, or on the path to the dark side.

 

I'd say Luke has a bit to make up for if he's going to be all nice and shiny, but unfortunately we don't see what happens to him next (in the movies that is).

Make what up to who?

 

Granted he used the Force to his own ends, and he did serve the Jedi cause, but ultimately it seems that he was more concerned with actually serving the Force than serving those who developed codes for bending the Force to their own will, be it for good or evil.

The Jedi don't attempt to force (no pun intended) the Force to be good or apply any morality to it. Morality is only applied to how they serve the Republic as guardians of peace. They are not altering the Force from its natural state. The Sith, on the other hand, do use the dark side and alter it from its natural state.

 

On a side note, the term "Will of the Force" is often used, but I have yet to see a definition of what that actually is. What is the Force trying to achieve? Is it sentient? I think too often that phrase is involked as a excuse for someone to do whatever the hell they want.

[Kurgan]

Well I guess the short answer to this question "Did Anakin bring balance to the Force?"

 

Is:

 

According to George Lucas and the Star Wars movies: YES.

 

According to the EU (unless there's a massive rewrite): NO. Or "MAYBE... from a certain point of view."

 

The prophecy is first discussed in depth in TPM about bringing balance. In ROTS that's where characters start talking about it being to "destroy the Sith." So I guess in those 13 years, that's how the Council came to interpret it. In a deleted scene of AOTC, Mace Windu tells Obi-Wan to "have faith" that Anakin will make the right choice. He almost sounds like he is a believer in the prophecy and Anakin's fullfilling it. Too bad Lucas didn't go with this development (it would have been more interesting I think), as Windu seems totally against Anakin in ROTS (though I guess he could have changed his mind in 3 years).

[carvin77]

yes, in my opinion...

[Prime]

According to George Lucas and the Star Wars movies: YES.

 

According to the EU (unless there's a massive rewrite): NO.

That could be applied to many a Star Wars question...

[jomaster]

always with the 'from a certain point of view' the fact that you can answer almost any SW question with that is pure genious

 

I've heard people say 'oh he did because in the end there was two jedi (kenobi and yoda) and two sith (palpatine and vader) surely this doesn't mean the force is balanced just because there is the same number on both sides seeing as how sme jedi/sith are more powerful than others so i guess the answer is no. (from a certain point of view of course

 

but heres a new angle on it:

 

how did the force become unbalanced in the first place??

[TK-8252]

how did the force become unbalanced in the first place??

 

Rise of the Sith...

[jomaster]

ahhhhh of course *slaps himself in the head* sorry i was tired

[Darth Alec]

Rise of the Sith...

 

Then return of the jedi......

Having only jedi does not make the force balanced, it makes it unbalanced.

And Luke is more of a "shades of grey" character, he does use the darkside, but does not join the sith.

 

And the number issue, having a hundred guys with nothing, or one guy with a heavy machinegun, it's not balanced.

[Prime]

Then return of the jedi......

Having only jedi does not make the force balanced, it makes it unbalanced.

And Luke is more of a "shades of grey" character, he does use the darkside, but does not join the sith.

Incorrect.

[Point Man]

And Luke is more of a "shades of grey" character, he does use the darkside, but does not join the sith.

Luke was not a "gray" character. He was good, not evil. He used his anger against Vader, but realized what he was doing in time to stop. After that he did not use the dark side. He was even willing to die and to sacrifice his friends rather than continue to use the dark side. How much more light side can you get than to risk your life to redeem the man responsible for nearly exterminating the Jedi, and who nearly killed you?