Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Maybe not, but think about it. There is no other episode where more went exactly as the bad guy wanted it to. The way the movie was done kind of hided this, but when you really think about all the events, and who profits the most from them, it is not difficult to claim that everything that happened was exactly what Sidious planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBuzzard Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Basically true. Maul was very expendable in Sidious' eyes, as were the Neimodians. TPM was more of his campaign to weaken the Galactic Republic. However, I wouldn't say partially exposing himself or plans would be good would it? Unless of course, he meant it all along and wanted to insert a level of fear in having the galaxy know that they were no longer safe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 8, 2004 Author Share Posted October 8, 2004 Yes, as you mentioned, it did serve to instill fear into the Jedi, and does seem to cause problems to them. Also, if he was worried about secrets, why have Dooku tell them everything. He was trying to cause fear and uncertainty. And I think it goes beyond the fact that the Niemoidians were expendable, it was necessary to his support in the Senate that Naboo overcome the Trade Federation. That is why he sent them into the trap he knew the Gungan attack to be. I also suspect that he was already working with Tyrannus, and thus wanted to send Maul to his death, but if I am wrong, than that was the only thing that may have gone the way of the good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin I also suspect that he was already working with Tyrannus, and thus wanted to send Maul to his death, but if I am wrong, than that was the only thing that may have gone the way of the good guys. I've got another train of thought on the whole "only two, a Master and an Apprentice" quote from Yoda. I'm not knocking Yoda, who's obvisously well verse in Jedi/Sith history given all the years he's had to study, but maybe one of the reason the Jedi are having problems with the Darkside clouding their vision is because Sidious isn't following to old Sith code. Heck, for all we know the code might have been a myth made to fool the Jedi. Or Sidious might just be ignoring it, given that he's in a position to know what he's up against and maybe wants a little help. To that end, the apprentices may not even know about each other. There's a huge galaxy to send them around on errands, so it's possible that both Maul and Tyrannus were serving as apprentice to Sidious at the same time yet knew nothing about each other (though Dooku may have learned about Maul after his death). Or maybe Dooku knew about Maul and one of the reasons he was so keen on turning Obiwan was because Maul was gone and they needed someone to fill the void. If they used Maul primarily for physical combat, it makes sense to recruit the person who bested him. Point is, just because Yoda expressed the code of the Sith, it doesn't mean that the Sith are continued to follow it. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin There is no other episode where more went exactly as the bad guy wanted it to. Ep II went exaclty how palpatine wanted. He got his emergency powers, he got his war, he got his army, he created mistrust in the republic and the jedi and he started to dig his claws into Anakin. TPM set the wheels in motion, but AOTC was the alley-oop for the slam-dunk that is ep III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 however, everything went wrong in EPI, there was some good to come out of EPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by rcsquirrel900 however, everything went wrong in EPI, there was some good to come out of EPII like what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 The union of Anakin and Padme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 oh yes, because we know that marriage is going to work out fine without seeing ep III this is just speculation, but i think it's obvious that anakin's relationship with padme will play some part in his turning to the darkside. of course the good thing to come from their relationship is the birth of luke and leia. but then the question is what will be the thing that pushes anakin over the edge? the death of padme maybe? in that case would anakin still have turned to the darkside if he hadn't fallen in love with padme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 i speculate there will be bigger reasons for his turning than just Padme. And screw luke, leia is the big bonus, no leia=no jaina jacen anakin*gasp* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by Kryllith I've got another train of thought on the whole "only two, a Master and an Apprentice" quote from Yoda. I'm not knocking Yoda, who's obvisously well verse in Jedi/Sith history given all the years he's had to study, but maybe one of the reason the Jedi are having problems with the Darkside clouding their vision is because Sidious isn't following to old Sith code. Heck, for all we know the code might have been a myth made to fool the Jedi. Or Sidious might just be ignoring it, given that he's in a position to know what he's up against and maybe wants a little help. To that end, the apprentices may not even know about each other. There's a huge galaxy to send them around on errands, so it's possible that both Maul and Tyrannus were serving as apprentice to Sidious at the same time yet knew nothing about each other (though Dooku may have learned about Maul after his death). Or maybe Dooku knew about Maul and one of the reasons he was so keen on turning Obiwan was because Maul was gone and they needed someone to fill the void. If they used Maul primarily for physical combat, it makes sense to recruit the person who bested him. Point is, just because Yoda expressed the code of the Sith, it doesn't mean that the Sith are continued to follow it. Just a thought... Never quite thought about it like that, but I think it is a very good point. According to EU sources, that seems very likely. The SW:CCG from Decipher said that his advisors were dark side force users, and lets not forget about Mara Jade. I always assumed these people to not actually be apprentices, and thus not be Sith, but rather just dark force users, but this is possibly a better explaination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 The rules of the Sith were set down by Darth Bane, an ancient Sith lord. He said there could only be 2 Sith Lords at a time, a master lord and the apprentice lord. The way of the Sith is to destroy everyone in your path - including your master - in order to prove your power over everyone. And if there were only 2 Sith at a time, there wouldn't be any huge wars like what happened. Of course, that may be EU, it may be Lucas' backstory. I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Kain The rules of the Sith were set down by Darth Bane, an ancient Sith lord. He said there could only be 2 Sith Lords at a time, a master lord and the apprentice lord. The way of the Sith is to destroy everyone in your path - including your master - in order to prove your power over everyone. And if there were only 2 Sith at a time, there wouldn't be any huge wars like what happened. Of course, that may be EU, it may be Lucas' backstory. I'm not sure. I'm willing the grant that the Sith code is as stated, but whether said code has fallen in disuse since the defeat of the Sith is questionable. Sidious may be following the code, but he may not be. Knowing how much of a manipulator he is, I wouldn't put it past him to have several apprentices at once in hopes of forcing them to keep continuously strive against one another rather than focusing on overthrowing Sidious. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Kain The rules of the Sith were set down by Darth Bane, an ancient Sith lord. He said there could only be 2 Sith Lords at a time, a master lord and the apprentice lord. The way of the Sith is to destroy everyone in your path - including your master - in order to prove your power over everyone. And if there were only 2 Sith at a time, there wouldn't be any huge wars like what happened. Of course, that may be EU, it may be Lucas' backstory. I'm not sure. That was my opinion too, but it seems possible that Palpatine would defy this, and show his power by controlling other Sith, instead of destroying them. It seems that since Palpatine was overconfident (as shown in ROTJ), he assumed that he could keep multiple Sith under control, without it leading to war. As far as after his death, I doubt he really cared what became of the Sith. Edit: Kryllith! You beat me to this! Edit: One more thing I forgot to mention. Originally posted by Sivy Ep II went exaclty how palpatine wanted. He got his emergency powers, he got his war, he got his army, he created mistrust in the republic and the jedi and he started to dig his claws into Anakin. TPM set the wheels in motion, but AOTC was the alley-oop for the slam-dunk that is ep III. I'm not sure what he had in mind for Jango, but that is a possible slip-up for Palpatine. I do not believe he had reached the end of his use, but it is always hard to say with Palpatine. A valid point none the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin I'm not sure what he had in mind for Jango, but that is a possible slip-up for Palpatine. I do not believe he had reached the end of his use, but it is always hard to say with Palpatine. A valid point none the less. all Jango was for was to be the template of a clone army. thats all dooku wanted from him. it was the trade federation who paid him to have padme killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Sivy all Jango was for was to be the template of a clone army. thats all dooku wanted from him. it was the trade federation who paid him to have padme killed. do you not think it would be in palpatines best interest to not have Padme in the senate though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 does she really matter to him? he's running the show, there's not much she could do to stop him. also it was he who suggested anakin should protect her. why would he do that? maybe because he has forseen that his relationship to her will one of the things that will turn him to the darkside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Sivy does she really matter to him? he's running the show, there's not much she could do to stop him. also it was he who suggested anakin should protect her. why would he do that? maybe because he has forseen that his relationship to her will one of the things that will turn him to the darkside. it is possible that he foresaw that, but he needed a senator to help give him power over the "military", and i don't think padme would do that. Also, he would have easily knownthat anakin would take her off-planet to help protect her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TicaL Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Shaggy does it again, or should I say Sha 'Gi ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 shaggy boy, you did bring up some good points, but i think my most recent argument stands to reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by rcsquirrel900 it is possible that he foresaw that, but he needed a senator to help give him power over the "military", and i don't think padme would do that. Also, he would have easily known that anakin would take her off-planet to help protect her and leave and the other senator from naboo in charge. who, by the way, is jar-jar. and at last we see the whole point of jar-jar's character. you see only a creature as dumb as jar-jar would give palpatine emergency powers to create army to save his friend, who is campaigning against a republic army. palpatine is a genius and has masterminded everything to perfection. so, again, why would palpatine want padme dead when indirectly she would give him want he wants, via jar-jar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Sivy and leave and the other senator from naboo in charge. who, by the way, is jar-jar. and at last we see the whole point of jar-jar's character. you see only a creature as dumb as jar-jar would give palpatine emergency powers to create army to save his friend, who is campaigning against a republic army. palpatine is a genius and has masterminded everything to perfection. so, again, why would palpatine want padme dead when indirectly she would give him want he wants, via jar-jar. simply because it seems very likely that if padme were dead, then jar jar would still volunteer, and a dead padme with jar jar in office is better than an offworld padme with jar jar in office becuase a living padme could very easily come back, and do something about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 i would say that if he did in fact want her dead, it would be after he already had his emergency powers. however, I think he wanted her alive for her relationship with ani. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin i would say that if he did in fact want her dead, it would be after he already had his emergency powers. however, I think he wanted her alive for her relationship with ani. so are you saying he kept her alive to ensure his reception of the emergency powers(though i would think he could foresee this happening anyway, or he wouldn't be so dang confident all the time)? And her relationship with ani IMO clinched his turn to the dark side, so i think i can see how that would be extra incentive tokeep her around, so that he was positive he would get Vader. But i want to know where the TF attack on Naboo fit in with palpatines plans(forgive me if this was already mentioned on this thread), but it seems as if he could have done fine without the war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by rcsquirrel900 i want to know where the TF attack on Naboo fit in with palpatines plans(forgive me if this was already mentioned on this thread), but it seems as if he could have done fine without the war this was to create a state of panic to where padme needed to challenge Chancellor Velorem(sp?), and ultimately vote for Palpatine to take the place of Chancellor through a vote of no confidence, this was step one into gaining supreme powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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