'Playable Jedi' Debate (merged, no flaming)

[sircursealot]

Jedi would be good, but only "purist" Jedi. That means no ridiculous force powers (or all force powers for that matter), no saberstaff, just a lethal weapon and a madass agility. No stupid saber throw or force grip. Just pure Jedi.

I wouldn't mind them blocking all my shots when in a defensive stance, but they should have a much harder time with explosives. No silly force push for them. I wouldn't mind Jedi if they had to dodge, think, and not go around spamming force powers, and if they were by far the hardest class for n00bs to use.

TK-8252, as far as siege goes, the Jedi on Hoth were perfectly balanced. Low health and basic force powers made it easy to dispense the n00bs, and the good Jedi can be taken out if you can dodge. Desert was a different matter. Full health and a plethora of force powers rendered most infantry useless in open combat.

As long as they don't make Jedi too flashy, I'd be fine with having Jedi in the game.

[LoQ]

Originally posted by TK-8252

I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.

 

But that wouldn't happen because chances are you would have to choose jedi as well to keep up. So you would have no gun to fire.

 

If there were Jedi in this game no one and I mean NO ONE would choose any other class of player for that exact reason. So the game would turn into a rather poor remake of the "Siege" gametype in "Jedi Academy".

[Pho3nix]

Originally posted by TK-8252

I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.

 

One major reason I got this game is so Star Wars gunners can have gun fights without being interrupted by Jedi - forcing you to retreat, wasting your ammo to be reflected right back at you, Force pushed down and rendered helpless, etc.

 

"Jedi could be balanced." Well, maybe, but I don't think so. Example of modded Jedi: MovieBattles II. Horrible overpowered Jedi. 3/4 of the players on MBII servers choose the Jedi class simply because they can't stand a chance as a gunner against a Jedi. Completely ruins the battle for everyone, and not to mention isn't canon. This could happen to SWBF too.

 

 

 

Why?

 

I completely agree, If they would make a Jedi class it would ruin the whole base of the game. And then LucasArts would have to make another class the "Bounty Hunters" which could somewhat repel the Jedi's

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by TK-8252

I don't want to unload my whole clip on a Jedi just to have my shots reflected back at me by some fanboy who must wave a glowstick.

 

You never played on a NF server did you? You don't need to worry about Pandemic putting controllable Jedi into this game. From your past comments I get the impression you didn't like Jedi in games, period, that's fine, but it's still just your opinion, and we've all got one of those. ; )

 

Jedi in SWBF are not uber right now. They are easy to kill and easy to avoid. They have no Force Powers (save the auto block/push rocket thing which can be circumvented by splash damage). Plus they are so rare most battles you won't have to deal with them at all (assuming they are even enabled, which they are not on most servers).

 

One major reason I got this game is so Star Wars gunners can have gun fights without being interrupted by Jedi - forcing you to retreat, wasting your ammo to be reflected right back at you, Force pushed down and rendered helpless, etc.

 

See above reference to NF servers.

 

"Jedi could be balanced." Well, maybe, but I don't think so. Example of modded Jedi: MovieBattles II. Horrible overpowered Jedi. 3/4 of the players on MBII servers choose the Jedi class simply because they can't stand a chance as a gunner against a Jedi. Completely ruins the battle for everyone, and not to mention isn't canon. This could happen to SWBF too.

 

Who cares about canon. So far there has never been a game that is fully compliant with canon. If modding tools are ever allowed, you can make the game as canon compliant if you want, but as with "reality" in games, it's something that is tossed out in favor of gameplay and fun. Sure, to some folks fun can only be had if something is "perfectly realistic to the movies" but that doesn't go for most. If the sales figures of these games are any indication... Heck, the entire EU exists because people want more, not just what is shown in the films! Games are official too, after all.

 

Why?

For fun. Variety. Options. sh**s & giggles. ; )

 

Why do you want everything to be generic and remove Jedi? 'Cause to you that is "better" and "more fun."

 

We all have preferences. I'm for more options whenever possible. I don't think controllable Jedi will be in this game anytime soon, but not for same reason you don't want them.

 

You don't like Jedi in games, because you consider it "fanboyish." I just think that the game has so many other problems it would be a waste of time for them to add some completely new feature that they never planned on when they should spend it on fixing the other bugs and problems.

 

As of right now you should have no problems with Jedi being in Battlefront. Because you can simply toggle them off. And most servers have them off anyway, so you really have nothing to complain about. And if mods are released and people make Jedi controllable somehow, well, how are you going to stop them?

 

Again, I don't want to have a huge debate about the nature of Star Wars games. Maybe there are too many Jedi games. Who knows, but the fact is people like them, they're an integrated part of the Star Wars mythos. So they're never going to go away completely. And there are plenty of games that don't feature them as playable characters or allow them to be toggled off, so Jedi haters can have their fun too.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by LoQ

But that wouldn't happen because chances are you would have to choose jedi as well to keep up. So you would have no gun to fire.

 

If there were Jedi in this game no one and I mean NO ONE would choose any other class of player for that exact reason. So the game would turn into a rather poor remake of the "Siege" gametype in "Jedi Academy".

 

That was never my experience in JA Siege, except on the Korriban level (where you could ONLY be Jedi). The fact is Jedi were good at certain tasks, poor at others. There were plenty of good reasons not to be Jedi. And in Siege Destroyer (Asteriods) class had literally no meaning.

 

I don't know what game you guys were playing, but it wasn't the same one I was apparently, and I hosted a public commercial Siege server that was quite popular for over 3 months, so it's not like I was sheltered. ; )

 

When I heard about this game I was EXPECTING it to blow JA Siege away. And while in some ways it does (the scale of the battles and variety of vehicles for example), in other ways it feels dumbed down and basic features (like rcon, secondary firing modes, more variety in voice commands, etc) are lacking. Sure JA Siege has only a few vehicles by comparison, but they're much easier to control and have better third person cameras than SWBF.

 

Pandemic did their darndest to make this a good game but were unfortunately handicapped by the LucasFilm DVD Hype machine and their marketing plans, and I applaud their efforts to patch the game. They've got a ways to go...

 

While I am not saying copy it, they could learn a thing or two from a modern FPS like JA or UT2k4 in terms of basic features and fine-tuning.

[Syzerian]

This game was made for people to 'relive the most famous star wars battles' now I didnt see 20 jedi running around on endor or geonosis, did you? Having playable jedi takes away from what this game is ment to be (another reason to scrap the darktrooper). "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you" One of Qui-Gon's great sayings which is true, you dont see jedi in a war because jedi just dont fight wars, sure they may oversee the battle of run past it to take out the sith lord but they never really participate.

[TK-8252]

I'm fine with the AI Jedi. Infact I'd wish they could be made more useful (but not invincible like they are now). But playable Jedi (as in a class for anyone) would be a horrible mistake.

 

And when playing JA Siege, most of the time I found myself getting killed by Jedi most often. It's not balanced, sorry!

 

When I shoot my enemy, I want them to be injured. I don't want to find myself injured by my own shot. It's annoying and destroys the flow of the game.

 

I'll say again...

 

"We're keepers-of-the-peace, not soldiers." ~ Mace Windu

[JawaJoey]

Let's stop beating this dead horse....

 

...and start beating the people who keep bringing this up!

 

No matter what you want to think, this game is about not having Jedi!

 

"But practically every SW game has Jedi!"

 

Hence this one is unique, and that's what makes this game.

 

"But they could be balanced"

 

A: No they couldn't. At least not without making them suck, which would really piss off all the "i want j3diz!" people.

B:Doesn't matter anyways, because Jedi don't belomng in this game.

 

"They were balanced in JA Siege mode"

 

What the heck is wrong with you? No they weren't. You're an idiot if you think they were balanced.

 

"But you don't mind the AI Jedi."

 

DUH! At MOST there are TWO Jedi in a battle of dozens. They are stupid and not that impressive. They don't make or break the battle. They're simplistic and mostly there for flavor. And they're actual characters. Add player Jedi and lookie here we got a dozen nameless Jedi wandering around Hoth. Just like in the movies!

 

"You always just say 'Go play JA'"

 

I wonder why? Maybe because you should just shut up and go play JA.

 

"But I'm bored of playing with Guns!"

 

Then go play JA.

 

"There's no reason not to have them!"

 

Except that the ENTIRE point of the ENTIRE game is to NOT play as a Jedi.

 

 

Even if you discount all the thousands of rational arguments against having Jedi, there's always the plain and simple fact that this game isn't about Jedi. It's about not jedi. That's what this game is about, and thats why this game exists. To not play as Jedi. So get over it, because there will never be Jedi, because that defies the point, and there are PLENTY of other games to play as a Jedi. Namely JA.

 

In conclusion:

 

SHUT UP!!! YOU'RE WRONG SO JUST SHUT UP!!!!

[Pho3nix]

Again...My point exactly

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by JawaJoey

Let's stop beating this dead horse....

 

...and start beating the people who keep bringing this up!

 

No matter what you want to think, this game is about not having Jedi!

 

I thought the point was to "control any battle from the Star Wars Universe!" And I hate to break it to you man, but the game already has Jedi. Vader, Luke, Mace Windu, and Count Dooku. ; )

 

"But practically every SW game has Jedi!"

 

Hence this one is unique, and that's what makes this game.

 

No other Star Wars game has what this game has, which is massive ground battles where you can control an individual soldier in a First or Third Person viewpoint. Sure we've had Star Wars FPS games before, but not on this grand a scale with all kinds of vehicles you can control.

 

This is the same problem I had with people arguing about the JK games. They were angry that people wanted to "fight with guns." They yelled "go play Quake or UT if you want guns, this is about sabers!" but they forgot that guns were in the game and part of the game.

 

Well, Jedi are in the game and part of the game here too, you just can't take control of them. I'm not arguing that you should be able to. Even if I was, it's way too much work. But if some mod maker wants to TRY once the tools are out, well... so what?

 

"But they could be balanced"

 

A: No they couldn't. At least not without making them suck, which would really piss off all the "i want j3diz!" people.

 

Says who? Surely you're not saying that because some mod making team failed to do it or that it didn't work to your satisfaction in Siege_Desert in JA that this means its impossible... I've suggested some ways it could work, I don't see you addressing those.

 

The only arguments that have sofar been made as to why Jedi shouldn't be playable is that 1) everyone would use them and nobody would use any other class. 2) that's not how the movies went! and 3) they would be too powerful and unbalance the game.

 

1) isn't valid, unless you believe that JA Siege was nothing but Jedi fighting Jedi, which it most surely was not (not in my experience). Because Jedi had definate limitations and drawbacks. Jedi could be limited in still other ways for this game, per the developer's discretion.

 

2) isn't valid because the Jedi have taken on the role of soldiers in the Star Wars canon and fought in large battles before. The Jedi/Sith war wasn't shown on screen, but it too is part of canon (TPM novelisation).

 

3) isn't valid because the Jedi would not have to be made "that powerful." Nobody says a Jedi has to be god-like in this game. Already vast changes have been made to "Star Wars reality" to facilitate game balance. For example Stormtrooper armor is much stronger than it is in the movies, and weapons need to reload (something never witnessed in any SW movies to date). Likewise we have things like ARC Troopers and Dark Troopers, which never appeared in any movie, and the list goes on.

 

B:Doesn't matter anyways, because Jedi don't belomng in this game.

 

That's a tautology, and wrong, because Jedi are in the game already. If they don't belong there, that's your opinion, obviously one Pandemic didn't agree with when they put Jedi into the game. They didn't allow you to play as them, but ignoring that makes your statement incorrect.

 

"They were balanced in JA Siege mode"

 

What the heck is wrong with you? No they weren't. You're an idiot if you think they were balanced.

 

I'm an idiot then. Thanks. Even if I'm the world's biggest idiot though, are you saying it's impossible to make Jedi balanced with the other classes? With a little imagination I'm sure one can come up with ways to balance them. These need not be Jedi Gods.

 

This game isn't about one on one fighting (and neither was JA Siege).

 

"But you don't mind the AI Jedi."

 

DUH! At MOST there are TWO Jedi in a battle of dozens. They are stupid and not that impressive. They don't make or break the battle. They're simplistic and mostly there for flavor. And they're actual characters. Add player Jedi and lookie here we got a dozen nameless Jedi wandering around Hoth. Just like in the movies!

 

Actually the general AI stupidity bothers me a great deal. That's not a valid argument because many of the battles seen in this game are not like they were in the movies. I don't remember any ARC Troopers or Dark Troopers in any SW movie battle, and there was only one Wookiee in any of them (Chewie). Sure, in SP the battles are closer to the movies, but in MP, all bets are off.

 

Would you have such a problem with Playable Jedi if there were still only one per team and his powers were limited to what you see with the AI Jedi? It would be the same as it is now, except the Jedi would be smarter.

 

I don't see what's so objectionable to that idea.

 

 

"You always just say 'Go play JA'"

 

I wonder why? Maybe because you should just shut up and go play JA.

 

Yeah, or maybe other people have their own opinions about mod making. ; )

 

I agree that JA is the game if you want Jedi, since they are already there and better than they could ever be in this game (unless of course Pandemic devotes themselves to a Jedi supporting Expansion pack which is by no means a given).

 

I can also say if you want to fly Starships, go play X-Wing Alliance or XvT.

 

This game is about armies fighting each other in the Star Wars universe with control of the individual troops (rather than a strategy game where you command units, but don't actually control them), that will remain unique about this game, regardless of if there are Jedi in it or not.

 

If you want a pure guns game, go play Republic Commando (when it comes out)! There's also Dark Forces and the Rogue Squadron series.

 

"But I'm bored of playing with Guns!"

 

Then go play JA.

 

But there are guns in JA!

 

Then you say "So go play KOTOR series."

 

"There's no reason not to have them!"

 

Except that the ENTIRE point of the ENTIRE game is to NOT play as a Jedi.

 

Says you, but that's by no means a given. Where do you get this? Oh that's right, it's your opinion. If I said "THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS GAME IS TO KILL EWOKS" that is my opinion too. But it's not a fact.

 

Even if you discount all the thousands of rational arguments against having Jedi, there's always the plain and simple fact that this game isn't about Jedi. It's about not jedi. That's what this game is about, and thats why this game exists. To not play as Jedi.

 

That's a tautology. Sorry to keep this going, but that's literally not an argument.

 

I'm right because what I say is true. And what I say is true is because I'm right. Because I am right. Right? Right. Saying that your opinion is the self evident truth isn't proven, so what's the point?

 

So get over it, because there will never be Jedi, because that defies the point, and there are PLENTY of other games to play as a Jedi. Namely JA.

 

What will you do if somebody mods in playable Jedi or if Pandemic releases an Expansion Pack with playable Jedi? Throw away the game?

 

Unless every server adopts the playable Jedi using mods, you can always just visit another server or create your own. Otherwise you adopt the slippery slope fallacy... if Jedi become playable, the game will become Jedi only and be ruined.

 

In conclusion:

 

SHUT UP!!! YOU'RE WRONG SO JUST SHUT UP!!!! [/b]

 

And my opinion is keep talking, this is a fascinating discussion, and it can be done in a civilized manner, as you see. Perhaps you haven't considered HOW Jedi could be made playable in the game without it being "ruined."

 

I've suggested some ways, but instead all I've been hearing is the same four reasons, which I addressed.

 

I'm kind of being a devil's advocate here because I don't think playable Jedi are going to happen in this game, not unless Pandemic does the work for it in a commercial expansion or sequel, but I just think some of the anti-Jedi reasoning here is flawed.

 

Here's some possible ways that playable Jedi could be balanced in this game:

 

1) Keep their powers limited (like they are now).

 

2) Make them fragile (low health).

 

3) Make it so they can't capture command points.

 

4) Make it so they can't man vehicles.

 

5) Limit the number of Jedi per team, per map.

 

6) Make being a Jedi a reward based on certain things, such as a high level of awards or kills, possibly in a previous map. And you can only be a Jedi for a certain amount of time or respawns. Perhaps a team has to "earn points" by how well they did (sort of like an online version of the Galactic Conquest mode in SP) and they can use these points to "buy" Jedi respawns. That would limit Jedi usage to how well you actually do.

 

Or here's another one, make it so that in a map there is a "captured Jedi" in a prison cell or something, and if you rescue him, you can take control of him (and the character who rescued him turns into AI or changes places with him in the prison cell). That way you'd have to work for it. The requirements for rescuing him could be anything you want. Perhaps the door has to be "hacked" to be opened, which takes time. Perhaps it's heavily guarded (by Wampas or something, heh), or deep in the heart of enemy territory.

 

Or perhaps there's a "Jedi Control Point" in enemy territory, and once you capture it, you get the Jedi class, but if you lose it, no more Jedi until you hold it again. Each team could have one.

 

All kinds of possibilities.

 

7) Limit Jedi respawns (already this is the case with the AI Jedi.. once your reinforcements are too low, the Jedi dies automatically). Perhaps make it so that you only get ONE Jedi per map, per team, just one, and when he dies, no more. Who gets to be the Jedi? Make it random. Or make it based on who did the best in the last round, or base it on the Leaderboard stats. Or make it an "option" that a team leader assigns. Ie: Bill, you get to be the Jedi, *poof* he's the Jedi for that team for that map until he dies.

 

8) Put limits on Jedi blocking (such as "blocking mana" like they had in Jedi Power Battles). Or make it so the person has to target the actual blaster shot to block (rather than what the AI does which is block anything, unless it's splash damage at their feet). Or do like the TPM Game and make it so they have to physically "bat" away each shot. Or remove the ability to block stuff.

 

9) Make the Jedi use up Mana everytime they "push" something. Limit their mana regeneration. Make it require a button press at the right moment. Make only certain projectiles Pushable (ie: make them vulnerable to certain weapons). Or remove the ability to Push stuff.

 

10) Make Jedi move or attack (or both) slower.

 

11) Don't make Jedi Dueling possible. Ie: no saber clashes, no challenges (no point in making extra work for yourself). In JA Siege you couldn't duel, and you couldn't clash. So Jedi would fight, they wouldn't duel. Sides, if Jedi are limited, who cares if two Jedi are dueling while the rest of the game fights each other?

 

12) Keep Jedi a "toggle on or off" option, as it is now. Don't want Jedi? Turn 'em off. Want 'em? Turn 'em on.

 

I'm sure you can think of more...

 

That won't please Jedi "fanboys" as you say, but then they can just play JA, right? ; )

 

These are ways you could make Jedi playable, yet make them "weak" enough that they won't dominate the battlefield and make it so that NOT "everyone wants to be one" and "nobody wants to be anything but a Jedi."

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by TK-8252

I'm fine with the AI Jedi. Infact I'd wish they could be made more useful (but not invincible like they are now). But playable Jedi (as in a class for anyone) would be a horrible mistake.

 

And when playing JA Siege, most of the time I found myself getting killed by Jedi most often. It's not balanced, sorry!

 

I killed quite a few Jedi in my games too, as a non-Jedi. I guess we just had different experiences. ; )

 

 

When I shoot my enemy, I want them to be injured. I don't want to find myself injured by my own shot. It's annoying and destroys the flow of the game.

In my post above I suggest some ways around that. Realistically (mythos speaking) there are ways to kill Jedi, such as unblockable weapons, explosives, massed firepower, distractions, vehicles, etc.

 

Where Jedi could potentially be a problem is in the infantry only maps (since vehicles are the easiest way to kill Jedi, even non-invincible Jedi). Simple solution to fix that? Don't allow Jedi except in maps with vehicles. Or simply make it so they can't push/block certain weapons.

 

Remember what Anakin said to Qui Gon? "Nobody can kill a Jedi!" and the response? "I wish that were so."

 

I agree with you that the AI Jedi should be improved (along with the rest of the AI).

 

I imagine your nightmare scenario for this game is a simple "Jedi Class" with no restrictions on usage that is as powerful as the Jedi in Jedi Academy running around killing everything in sight. It doesn't have to be that way, and I think that way would be way to hard to create anyway (except for a proffessional design team). The Star Wars Quake/2 TC Team worked on making Jedi from scratch for like 6 years (1996-2002) and they couldn't pull it off.

 

Something else I should mention is the game Mysteries of the Sith. In that game you could play with limited Jedi vs. Non-Jedi and it was quite fun. Of course it was still FFA/Team FFA, it wasn't about two armies fighting. And in that case the non-Jedi were balanced by giving them low level Force abilities + resistance to certain Force Powers.

 

I'll say again...

 

"We're keepers-of-the-peace, not soldiers." ~ Mace Windu

 

Mace Windu is a soldier by the end of the movie, as are a large number of Jedi. Watch it again. ; )

 

Actions speak louder than words!

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by JawaJoey

Let's stop beating this dead horse....

 

...and start beating the people who keep bringing this up!

 

*Whacks Kurgan with my E-11*

 

Now, no Jedi.

[Cosmos Jack]

This is the same type of thing that has drug SWG under. (The debate about Jedi.) To be a Jedi or not to be a Jedi? That is the question.

 

The AI Jedi in this game are meant as reward and special use AI Character you get during game play. They aren't meant to be a playable class in the game or they would be. Like someone else has said "they are there for flavor," because it is Star Wars and a few people expect some kind of Jedi content in the game for that reason alone.

 

"Kurgan" You are just arguing for the sake of arguing over a point that few people support.

 

The current state of the game it very clear that Jedi are not meant to be in the game "as a playable class." <-- LOOK THERE. Obviously they are in game and meant to be in game for the before resons I stated above. They were never intended to be a playable class and probly given their state added at request just for the sake of having Jedi. Again for the resions I have said aleady.

 

ARC Troopers, Dark Troopers and Wookiees to me are a lot more acceptable then Jedi. As they have no special powers and are equal to any other class in the game. They don't encourage people to stand around, chat, and have personal little duals.

 

I think the subject of Jedi in this game is more routed in personal feelings then game play, balance, or other issues. People don't want this to be Jedi Battlefront "You Idiot you lamed me I had my saber down."

 

As for my personal opinion I have NO disire to play "Jedi Battlefront" Much like I had NO disire to play "Jedi Galaxies."

[TK-8252]

There would really be no whining about laming (since lightsabers are always ignited anyway ), but I could see problems with Jedi always wanting to "duel" right in the middle of a battle. Then when the real soldiers start shooting into "duels," the Jedi start whining "OMG NOOB STOP SHOOTING DOOLERZ!1"

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

The AI Jedi in this game are meant as reward and special use AI Character you get during game play. They aren't meant to be a playable class in the game or they would be.

 

But, they could be and still work if they were done right, that was my point. The opposition hasn't addressed that part yet.

 

 

Like someone else has said "they are there for flavor," because it is Star Wars and a few people expect some kind of Jedi content in the game for that reason alone.

 

Yes, some people are that way. And some other people are assuming that this game is "too pure" for Jedi, and that only fanboys could possibly want to be Jedi.

 

The fact is that Jedi fought in some of the battles portrayed in these games, and being able to control them would not be unnatural. It's just more work for whoever is making them playable, but not a lot if they are limited Jedi (as the AI are) and not "uber Jedi" as the ones in games like JK2 and JA are (compared to the generic troops I mean).

 

"Kurgan" You are just arguing for the sake of arguing over a point that few people support.

 

I don't know if few people support the idea or not. Some do, otherwise the issue wouldn't have been brought up at all. We'll see if Pandemic or the mod makers (if there are any) respond to the idea.

 

I admit, I do love a good debate, but the idea has intruiged me. It was fun to think of ways that they could be made to work.

 

The current state of the game it very clear that Jedi are not meant to be in the game "as a playable class." <-- LOOK THERE.

 

Just keeping you honest. ; )

 

Obviously they are in game and meant to be in game for the before resons I stated above. They were never intended to be a playable class and probly given there state added at request just for the sake of having Jedi. Again for the resions I have said aleady.

 

I don't think this was based on a fan request, as we heard about their being Jedi as soon as we heard about the game. I imagine this was a creative decision. See my ideas about Jedi remaining a bonus unit, rather than a regular unit.

 

ARC Troopers, Dark Troopers and Wookiees to me are a lot more acceptable then Jedi. As they have no special powers and are equal to any other class in the game. They don't encourage people to stand around, chat, and have personal little duals.

 

I never said to put duels into the game did I? How many duels went on in Siege and CTF games in JA/JK2? None that I can recall. Such a game mode doesn't lend itself to dueling. Where people dueled were in the saber challenges (built into the game) and Duel mode (built into the game). If there are only two Jedi on the entire map, I suppose they could try to duel, but they'll by killed by anybody near them. As to standing around chatting, those people will get killed too. Perhaps you can get away with that kind of whining in a Duel map or even a FFA, but in a team based game? Those people would be laughed off the server.

 

You're assuming that making Jedi playable will make the JA/JK2 "h0n0r c0d3 d00dz" play this game and try to ruin it. That's the slippery slope fallacy.

 

I think the subject of Jedi in this game is more routed in personal feelings then game play, balance, or other issues. People don't want this to be Jedi Battlefront "You Idiot you lamed me I had my saber down."

 

So don't make it possible to put your saber down. Problem solved!

 

Maybe it is routed in personal feelings. I see people who don't want Jedi to be playable insulting others who do, and yelling about how the game will be "ruined" and the "fanboys" will take over, etc. I'm not offended that there are no playable Jedi in the game. I do admit that the Jedi in the game are pretty worthless, and I say to myself "if I were controlling Darth Vader, he might actually help his team." As of now you can't even give them orders!

 

But having a playable Jedi could add more flavor to the game and make for some interesting scenarios (if mods are allowed and created, and for any future expansions).

 

As for my personal opinion I have disire to play "Jedi Battlefront" Much like I had no disire to play "Jedi Galaxies."

 

You're entitled to your opinion of course. But you make it sound as if playable Jedi are in the game and then it will become ABOUT JEDI, rather than having them as a feature. I think that's a leap in logic.

 

Interesting that you would bring up SWG, because, while I don't play that game (and have no plans to) I've read that it's not easy to become a Jedi, and they are limited in what they can do. It's not as if people sign up just to become a Jedi (unless they're insane and like spending lots of time and money.. but then again, maybe that is how MMORPG players are... j/k). ; )

 

Like it or not, Jedi are a central part of Star Wars, so they will continue to be in Star Wars games. But that doesn't mean they need to play an equal role in all games, as I've stated. Seriously, read some of the ideas I posted. If you think seriously about them I think you'll find less reason to dismiss the idea out of hand (except the paranoid notion that this will turn into a dueling-based game if Jedi are allowed to be selectable).

 

 

Here's another idea: People hate Ewoks and Gungans, and yet they love that they are in the game. Why? Cause it's fun to kill 'em!

 

Imagine two Jedi "dueling" in the middle of the map, and then running them both over with a Wheel Droid. Pwn3d!

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by Kurgan

But, they could be and still work if they were done right, that was my point. The opposition hasn't addressed that part yet.

We have.. We don't want Jedi... Work or no I don't think it really changes what the argument is about. We just don't want Jedi, we don't feel that the game is about being a Jedi, and playing one or whatever.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

Yes, some people are that way. And some other people are assuming that this game is "too pure" for Jedi, and that only fanboys could possibly want to be Jedi.

 

That's is a pretty good assumption.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

The fact is that Jedi fought in some of the battles portrayed in these games, and being able to control them would not be unnatural. It's just more work for whoever is making them playable, but not a lot if they are limited Jedi (as the AI are) and not "uber Jedi" as the ones in games like JK2 and JA are (compared to the generic troops I mean).

 

Is it so bad to actually want a game in the Star Wars universe that doesn't have to do with Jedi? Seriously................

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I don't know if few people support the idea or not. Some do, otherwise the issue wouldn't have been brought up at all. We'll see if Pandemic or the mod makers (if there are any) respond to the idea.

 

The only good thing about this is if someone does add Jedi it will have to be a MOD and not all the servers will support it. I honestly hope Pandemic does not do something like that.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I don't think this was based on a fan request, as we heard about their being Jedi as soon as we heard about the game. I imagine this was a creative decision. See my ideas about Jedi remaining a bonus unit, rather than a regular unit.

 

I never said anything about fan request more like a LA request.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I never said to put duels into the game did I? How many duels went on in Siege and CTF games in JA/JK2?

 

Actually I have seen it and even been kicked for killing the guy my team mate was dueling with.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

You're assuming that making Jedi playable will make the JA/JK2 "h0n0r c0d3 d00dz" play this game and try to ruin it. That's the slippery slope fallacy.

Really...

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

So don't make it possible to put your saber down. Problem solved!

 

If only that would fix everything...

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

But having a playable Jedi could add more flavor to the game and make for some interesting scenarios (if mods are allowed and created, and for any future expansions).

 

Kind of like when you pop in During a Clone Wars game and 3/4 of the Clones are Jet Troopers? Not that I care just something that I have noticed. One time I was gang banged by 6 or 7 Jet trooper flying at me I had no chance. lol Not all but 3/4 of the player would go Jedi if they were there.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

You're entitled to your opinion of course. But you make it sound as if playable Jedi are in the game and then it will become ABOUT JEDI, rather than having them as a feature. I think that's a leap in logic.

What logic are you using?

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

Interesting that you would bring up SWG, because, while I don't play that game (and have no plans to) I've read that it's not easy to become a Jedi, and they are limited in what they can do. It's not as if people sign up just to become a Jedi (unless they're insane and like spending lots of time and money.. but then again, maybe that is how MMORPG players are... j/k). ; )

 

Have you ever gone to the official boards? Yep people sign up just to become Jedi and it's not nearly as hard as it was now. Maybe 1/2 the population did nothing, but grind to become Jedi. Almost everyone I ran into said I'm trying to be a Jedi. Jedi had a smaller part in Galaxies then they do in BF in the original plan for the game. Now they have pretty much tailored the game around the Idea.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

Like it or not, Jedi are a central part of Star Wars, so they will continue to be in Star Wars games. But that doesn't mean they need to play an equal role in all games, as I've stated. Seriously, read some of the ideas I posted. If you think seriously about them I think you'll find less reason to dismiss the idea out of hand (except the paranoid notion that this will turn into a dueling-based game if Jedi are allowed to be selectable).

 

I have read your ideas and frankly just don't care for it. I have no real interest in having Jedi in this game in any shape form or fashion. If anything The AI ones should be removed for just being pointless. Good thing it is an option to turn them off.

[sircursealot]

Alright, I can argue siege all day with all y'all. First of all, I agree with you that Desert Rescue was horribly unbalanced, with Jedi having increased health, grip, rage, level 3 pull, etc. However, Hoth was pretty much perfectly balanced. As a demolitions or tech defending Hoth, I could easily eat up Jedi no problem. Same on the attack. If they could make a realistic Jedi (e.g. no bogus force powers) without unbalancing the whole game and make him have a purpose like all other classes (like in siege where Jedi were used primarily for their mobility) then I would be fine with them.

Either way, Jedi or no Jedi, I'm happy with this game...

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

We have.. We don't want Jedi... Work or no I don't think it really changes what the argument is about. We just don't want Jedi, we don't feel that the game is about being a Jedi, and playing one or whatever.

 

 

 

That's is a pretty good assumption.

 

Actually this wasn't the argument, the argument was that Jedi are too powerful or don't fit into the movies.

 

But you're saying that EVEN THOUGH they could be balanced and would fit canon (in other words there's no logical reason why they couldn't be made playable in the game), you don't want them. So it's a purely subjective value-judgement based on your opinion.

 

Concession accepted then. Now it all depends on how many people want Jedi and the influence they have over those with the power to make it happen. ; )

 

 

Is it so bad to actually want a game in the Star Wars universe that doesn't have to do with Jedi? Seriously................

 

It isn't a bad thing no, it's just a personal taste. I would hazard to say that more than half of all Star Wars games don't feature playable Jedi (at least not in the way we think of... swinging sabers or using the Force). And not all of the ones that do have them in a central role (SWG for example, and this game).

 

Your reasoning now is purely a matter of taste, and that's not something I can argue, because I'm not you, and your preferences are you own.

 

The only good thing about this is if someone does add Jedi it will have to be a MOD and not all the servers will support it. I honestly hope Pandemic does not do something like that.

 

Not if Pandemic adds them in an expansion or sequel (I doubt they'd do them in a patch, but you never know).

 

Actually the ideas I suggested wouldn't require that much work on their part. All they would have to do is create a bonus unit (they would have to decide how to award that bonus unit, I listed some ideas that would be feasible in theory). They could make it a seperate game option in the server (checkbox next to "Playable Jedi" for example).

 

Making JA style uber jedi WOULD require a lot of work and I don't forsee that happening at all except in some mod team's wildest dreams. But basic "weak Jedi" would theoretically take no time at all. So I can see that happening, if Pandemic decides it's worthwhile.

 

I see it as this: Imagine the game exactly as it is now, with only one Jedi per team if the server allows it, except now that Jedi is not "invincible" and can be controlled by a human. Even without the limitations I suggested, that's still really no big deal.

 

I never said anything about fan request more like a LA request.

 

Do we know that for a fact? You're implying that Pandemic didn't want to put Jedi in the game, but LA forced them to. That's an interesting theory, but where's your proof?

 

Actually I have seen it and even been kicked for killing the guy my team mate was dueling with.

 

What are you talking about? Dueling with pistols at 20 paces in SWBF?

 

If that's true, then I rest my case, not having Jedi wont' solve this problem if it already exists!

 

In SWG that's not an issue because only the sysops or whatever they are called (akin to "dungeon masters" in a traditional fantasy RPG) can do that, and if you are messing with one of them, well you deserve it.

 

In JK2/JA there was a problem with people getting kicked for interrupting duels, but most duelers figured out that if they wanted to do they had a few choices: 1) have a private duel so nobody else can attack them 2) play on a duel server or 3) use a mod that allows them to have multiple duels without problems.

 

If sabers can't be turned off, there's no saber locking, and no private duel mode, there's little reason to assume that people will start being mass kicked for killing a pair of Jedi who are "dueling" in a hypothetical Jedi-playable SWBF server.

 

If playable Jedi are added, do you think it might be possible for somebody to host a game with two players only for Dueling purposes? Maybe.

 

But it depends on how Jedi are implemented. If they are a special bonus that is only awarded for doing certain things, it might be impossible to get Jedi unless you played a normal game then kicked everybody out. And you could prevent that from happening by making it so if your team is gone, you stop being a Jedi (minimum player number on a team for a Jedi to be usable).

 

Kind of like when you pop in During a Clone Wars game and 3/4 of the Clones are Jet Troopers? Not that I care just something that I have noticed. One time I was gang banged by 6 or 7 Jet trooper flying at me I had no chance. lol Not all but 3/4 of the player would go Jedi if they were there.

 

I've never seen that, but then I haven't played MP all that much. In Siege it was never my experience that everyone used the same class (well, I admit, the default Assault class was used a lot, mainly because he could accomplish every objective, and was the easiest to learn, even if other classes were better at certain objects and weak on others).

 

If you are limited to only one Jedi per team, this problem disappears. Did anyone actually read what I wrote?

 

What logic are you using?

 

I'm using my experiences as an online game, and common sense based on the fact that developers can implement solutions to balance problems (or percieved problems) if they set their minds to it. I'm also using the logic of the Star Wars films, that some are trying to use as a reason why Jedi shouldn't be controllable in this game, which I have pointed out (using examples from the films) as invalid. The Star Wars mythos itself refutes their claims. So in the end we just have a person animus in seeing people control Jedi in a game.

 

 

Have you ever gone to the official boards? Yep people sign up just to become Jedi and it's not nearly as hard as it was now. Maybe 1/2 the population did nothing, but grind to become Jedi. Almost everyone I ran into said I'm trying to be a Jedi. Jedi had a smaller part in Galaxies then they do in BF in the original plan for the game. Now they have pretty much tailored the game around the Idea.

 

Again I can't say I know the situation, I was just curious.

 

Still, in a game like that, what else IS THERE new to do? That's why they keep adding new stuff, to keep it interesting. When they add Jump to Lightspeed, the focus of the game for many will be to fly ships around. What's wrong with that?

 

In SWBF, if Jedi are made playable, yes, of course people are going to want to play as them. But if you limit it, then it won't become the focus of the game, nor will it dominate the game. It's like the decision to add Dark Troopers to the game instead of something else.

 

Does everyone want to be only Dark Troopers? Not that I know of. Granted, Jedi have probably more appeal than Dark troopers, but still. If they are not uber powerful and you can only "earn them" or they are randomly assigned, then there is no reason to worry about legions of Darth Vader's overrunning your base of Rebels.

 

I have read your ideas and frankly just don't care for it. I have no real interest in having Jedi in this game in any shape form or fashion.

 

Then I guess you lost! Better make sure that box next to "Heroes" is unchecked on the server you join or host.

 

I just don't see why allowing Jedi to be playable will Force everyone to put up with legions of Jedi. I've shown why this "worst case scenario" needn't be reality.

 

If anything The AI ones should be removed for just being pointless. Good thing it is an option to turn them off.

 

Personally I think the AI in general is pretty worthless. Many servers in fact have turned off AI completely.

 

But I think if it were properly tweaked, the AI could work well and be a benefit, just as if the Jedi were tweaked and fine tuned they too could add to the game, rather than just taking up space. Playable Jedi too could add to the game, if done properly.

 

I'm glad we had this discussion, it's really opened my eyes to your line of reasoning. I don't agree with it, but at least I understand it now.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by Kurgan

What are you talking about? Dueling with pistols at 20 paces in SWBF?

 

He means in Jedi Academy (or Outcast, which ever).

 

Seriously, I mean, for Jedi to be balanced, they'd have to be darn near worthless. Anyone who picks Jedi would just be wasting a reinforcement. The only way I could see a Jedi being balanced is you have to stand still to block, blocking drains your Force energy, and has to move in order to dodge explosives. Force jump high enough to get you on a Mos Eisely building. Force push only knocks you back and not down. That's it. Not much of a Jedi, eh? Well, that's what a "playable Jedi" would be in SWBF. Who would want to be that? Anyone who does is truely just a waste for the team.

[sircursealot]

TK-8252, that would be a great Jedi class. Sure, it's not n00b friendly, but experienced players can exploit it to its full potential. The Jedi lacks range, but is far more agile than infantry units, and has an instant kill weapon. You won't be able to become a skilled Jedi overnight, but practice dodging, learn how to use a saber, and use geurilla tactics and the Jedi could become the most lethal player on the server. Of course, it would have it's weaknesses (droidekas, oribital strikes, or even thermals), so I can see it being a balanced unit.

Just my opinion...

[Kurgan]

sircursealot is right, they would not be "worthless" since their saber is a deadly weapon.

 

Actually, TK's giving the Jedi more powers than the AI Jedi have, like Force Jump (akin to the Dark Trooper Jump jets I suppose?) and Force Push against bodies (rather than just missiles).

 

My idea of Jedi would be that they would be just like the AI Jedi but actually lose health when they are hit. They could have Force Heal, like the AI Jedi but it would be a power you'd have to actively "use" and it would use up mana (so less mana for pushing or blocking).

 

One way to do blocking would be like the Jedi Power Battles idea (much as I hated that game). Hold the button down and you will block any blaster shot that hits your front, basically. But every deflection lowers your mana. Once your mana is depleted, you are hit by projectiles even if you hold block. And to deflect back at the shooter you have to tap the button as the projectile is hitting your blade (possible since most of the projectiles are not instant hit, but takes practice and timing). Mana would continuously recharge like a Jettrooper or Dark Trooper's jetpack or the pistols and vehicle weapons that recharge (from "overheating").

 

Or we could dispense with the "Force Push" altogether and just use the same method for Deflections as with Rockets. Except the animation would be of the Jedi waving his hand (actually the AI Jedi do a "block pose" when sending rockets back IIRC) for added realism.

 

The strength of these bonus Jedi would be the strength of the Jedi now, except they wouldn't be immortal, so once Dooku gets knocked on his a$$ a couple of times, he's gone, rather than just getting up as if nothing happened.

 

So let's say this is how the buttons are for a hypothetical Jedi:

 

Movement: Just like normal (wasd)

 

Aiming: Just like normal (mouse)

 

Zoom: Same. Either remove it or leave it (but remove the "sniper view" since it's just looking around).

 

Jumping: Normal, except if you want a Force Jump just give them the same ability like Dark Troopers have, but without the jets coming out of the back.

 

Attack: Primary fire would be the generic saber swing that would be insta-kill at close range on all infantry units and do a sizable amount of damage to vehicles (perhaps as much as a rocket or grenade hit?).

 

Secondary Attack: Secondary Fire would be the deflection button, that uses up mana. Tap to deflect at the attacker. Hold to deflect anything hitting you in front (in random directions), but not splash damage at your feet, etc. Uses up mana with each successful deflection.

 

Force Heal: This could be done as the "secondary grenade" type deal. Hit G to switch to "Force Heal" and secondary fire to activate it to heal yourself with the blue effect. I hate the "switching grenade type" thing with no hotkey, but for limitations of Jedi purposes, this is fine since it would take an extra step for Jedi to heal themselves. This would also use up mana.

 

There would be one mana pool for all three powers, that recharged with time. Once depleted, no powers could be used until you had enough.

 

Walking and blocking to me isn't a big deal, but if necessary you could add that if needed to further weaken the Jedi for balance sake.

 

Crouching would be the same, as would picking up objects (Power Droids would recharge nothing obviously). You could crawl on your belly, but you couldn't be able to attack from that position (unless you wanted to add some animation of swiping at the enemy's legs or something I guess). Rolling to the side would be the same. There would be no need for reloading or switching of weapons (Saber only, always ignited).

 

Also the saber hum (and the heavy breathing in the case of Vader) would always give away your position when you were fairly close.

 

 

You guys both have the right idea. By not making Jedi anymore powerful than they already are, and thinking logically about how to implement the powers they currently have, it could easily fit the game. They would be more useful than the AI Jedi because humans can actually think, and so they would still be an asset but avoid the "Fanboy" factor as well. ; )

 

The only real trick is deciding WHO gets to be a Jedi (unless you think the above is sufficient to make Jedi a selectable class that anybody can be, in any number you want on the team). Hence my suggestions about having to "earn" it somehow. If there is only one Jedi per team people will fight over it unless it's a reward of some kind.

[Sam Fisher]

Kurgan, you think too much

 

 

No really, it might be fun to be a Jedi, but there's no use in speculating now...

[Kurgan]

Hey, I like speculating, what's wrong with that? ; )

 

Though you have a point. Until the time (if any) that mod tools are released, it's just a dream. *sigh*

[Sam Fisher]

Yea, I don't see how having a Battlefield-type game and no modding tools is good..

[sircursealot]

Yeah, I like Kurgan's model for a Jedi class (with the possible exception of force heal... maybe). They could do a point system like in Enemy Territory so only players with a high experience could play as Jedi, but then again, I hate it when certain players have a given advantage over others...