'Playable Jedi' Debate (merged, no flaming)

[hatelull]

just because this topic is too juicy to ignore, i'm going to offer my .02 cents. granted, my opinion means as much as everyone else's but hey ... "he can't write so much as type"...

 

now, let me preface this by saying that my experience with playing "Jedi" is limited to JKII and JA. These games allow me to play saber combat and feed my "i have a light saber and can wipe out Imperials" fetish. Fun stuff. JKII was probably more fulfilling that JA since you appreciated the saber once you got it and there were many situations where guns were more strategic to sabers. JA was a lot of force speed + slicey slice slice. rinse. repeate.

 

I never bothered with multiplayer simply becuase i saw a server full of jedi doing the exact same thing i did in the single player (i.e., deflect lasers, push people off ledges, jump high and pull people up just so they can fall, choke, etc etc) incredibly boring.

 

So, I'm going to approach this like I would the ONE game I DO know something about multiplayer.

 

Quake III.

 

Quake III has a lot of weapons. It's fairly balanced. However, there's one weapon that separates the men from the boys. The RailGun. Granted, you can counter it. Keep them at a distance, fire rockets, don't let them keep you in the open for long. However, if they're persistent and have hype aim the railgun will get you in the end. Crazy thing about the railgun, it's a point click instant death weapon. The early days of RA3 with default amour, two rails shots and it was over get in line bitch. Things changed, but the railgun remained the definitive weapon. newbs spammed plasma. hpb's spammed rockets and hoped for some splash damage. the real players, i mean the low ping god i hate you you must be cheating bastards used the lightning gun and rail gun explictly. they were weapons of finesse. a civilized weapon from a more civilized era if you will.

 

so, what's this got to do with Battlefront?

 

probably ****all in reality but what i'm getting as is this ...

 

if you wanted to be most excellent with the rail, you had to have a low ping. it was all that mattered. unless you had some sick prediction skills, the guy pinging 30 could easily take the guy pinging 100. this is what i'm afraid is going to happen with the jedi.

 

jedi combat is saber intensive. make them low in health if you want, the inherent nature of the saber calls for quick deadly kills. the sniper rifle is pretty deadly but even IT has to have at least two shots to take out heavy armor. sabers, logically, should be able to do that quicker. after all, it's the whole jedi thing right? so ..

 

you're a guy playing a imperial rocket dude. you ping 100 but yet you're pretty damn good at taking out the vehicles and groups of those rebel scum. you offer covering fire and heavy artillery to many an assault. you consider yourself an asset to your team. along comes some pooftah pinging 25 using a darth maul model. probably cauls himself Darth Death or something just as unimagniative (not to diss you hardcore starwars types but really there has GOT to be better nicks than something referencing han, luke, or darth for ****s sake). anyway, this darth death guy finds you with his saber and its instant death see you later. bah. respawn and find him again this time try and nail him with your rockets. oh wow, he's not where you thought he was ... probably becuase he's PINGING 30 and the pitiful splash damage those rockets have are useless. so you get frustrated and figure, i'll just pick a regular storm trooper and get endor on his ass. too bad he can block most everything and still dismember you.

 

grr. you figure "hey the only way to fight fire is with fire" so you respawn as a jedi and track him down ... and suddenly you're fighting a jedi in POWERPOINT since the ping difference forces you to excercise your nonexistant psychic abilities and you lose. badly.

 

ok, so that's a rather exagerrated scenario but you see the point? the lpb rail whores in q3 discouraged a LOT of people from playing the game. jedis with even marginal skill and a killer connection could insert a horrible imbalance to the game.

[sircursealot]

I'm not sure about that, hatelull. I usually have an 80-100 ping, but I could easily nail people with those tiny Golan balls. They had a bit of splash radius, but I'm assuming the rockets have a bit bigger radius. Yes, a good ping is a good ally, but doesn't automatically make you skilled.

[hatelull]

Originally posted by sircursealot

I'm not sure about that, hatelull. I usually have an 80-100 ping, but I could easily nail people with those tiny Golan balls. They had a bit of splash radius, but I'm assuming the rockets have a bit bigger radius. Yes, a good ping is a good ally, but doesn't automatically make you skilled.

 

for this i say ..

 

you're using a projectile distance weapon with splash damage at a ranged target. even with your ping, projectile prediction is cake. hpb's excel at this in q3, but will get taken down by smart lpb's with decent aim. however this is battlefront ....

 

close quaters the 100ping golan ball shooter guy will get killed before he has a chance against a sub50 saber wiedling jedi that has to get maybe 1-2 hits in to take someone down.

 

maybe i'm totally off and am not giving enough credit to the netcode but it seems that the jedi has a major advantage ...

 

barring all ping debates and advantages ... there's still the same tired arguement ..

 

if you give a server the option of Weapon X which is quite possibly superior to the other weapons the majority will choose Weapon X, right?

[Evil Dark Jedi]

There will be a FPS Tactical Shooter with no jedi(hopefully) called Republic Commando.

 

As I said before it is alright having jedi as A.I bots as they are completely dumb(I mean it). Once when I was right next to Luke as a stormtrooper he just stood there for the rest of the game.

 

So I will say it again play the Jedi Knight series to be a jedi for basically the whole game(not including Outcast).

[Kurgan]

Good points, though one thing that BF has that Q3 and JK2 didn't have: vehicles.

 

So yeah, a Jedi with a low ping vs. your high ping might be a tough badass mofo, but get into your AT-TE (or whatever) and what's he going to do? Swipe at your legs, hoping to kill you in a series of hits, but in that time you can fire one burst of lasers and totally ruin his day.

 

Or hop into your Speeder and move faster than he ever could hope to. Run his a$$ over!

 

Or whatever. I mean the vehicles out there have insane splash damage (try taking out droids on Geonosis with the AT-TE or LAAT, whoa!) and/or they can run people over for a one hit kill. It's one thing to dodge a tiny laser blast. It's quite another to dodge a huge multi-ton vehicle or a block of turbolasers/rockets as big as your own body. And with the mana depleting block power I suggested, a Jedi won't be able to just stand there and stop everything, eventually you'll get through (and a smart person will just use the splash to his advantage).

 

That's how it was in JA/JK2 MP. Vehicles totally own Jedi, and use of splash damage can take them out too. Anyway...

 

The thing is the "dumb Jedi" are a bug really, just like the general dumb AI. Once they are patched up and (decently) smart, people will see what they are really capable of, and I think that controllable Jedi won't seem so impossible.

 

And yes, RC is coming and I'm looking forward to it, but keep in mind it won't be the same as BF. It's a tactical shooter that's squad based, rather than two armies fighting each other. Also the MP for that game (from the little we know) is pretty run-of-the-mill FPS (ie: FFA, Team FFA, CTF). No word yet on whether or not you have to fight any Jedi. In the movies the Jedi lead Clone Troopers into battle, but most of your missions are supposedly pretty covert, so it makes sense that there isn't a Jedi with you. Doubtful that they'll play much of a role if any though. In MP it's going to be Trandoshans vs. Clonetroopers. That's confirmed.

 

Granted, there is some squad based stuff in BF, but it's somewhat jumbled now (unless you're good working with your clanmates or whatever) do to the buggy/poor AI that doesn't always obey your orders or use decent tactics. I think the way they intended it was for the human players to act like generals or squad leaders leading groups of bots. Lot of times I play though, it's more the general chaos of war, since people don't stick together, for whatever reasons.

[SM_drunkcow]

Kinda wish thre were light sabers that couldnt deflect a person's laser/arrow and took the place of a secondary pistol. It could take 2 wacks/swings at a person to kill them but would run out of energy fast. Pluss could only be used at close range. It would be fun to have a sword fight with them on a lan game. Just make it where the A.I don't use them (that way they can't over use them)

 

I know it was kind of off topic but it sorta has to do with jedi.

[Kurgan]

That would be cool, but don't push it. I don't think anybody wants the dueling thing. That's better left to dedicated Jedi games like the JK series.

 

A Jedi in this game would serve the same purpose as any other soldier and what the AI Jedi do now.

 

It does look a little silly when Mace Windu and Count Dooku totally ignore each other on the battlefield, but if we went with what we're talking about it would all be over in a flash. Both Jedi approach each other and the first one to swing in range gets the kill and walks away. That's how it should be IMHO, 'cause otherwise people will waste too much time saber fighting when there's work to be done!

 

Unless one Jedi gets the drop on the other, it wouldn't matter. So it would discourage dueling and encourage the Jedi to go and help their teammates out.

 

The Jedi could also be good for distracting the enemy while their buddies sneak past defenses. The Jedi could also be a good tool for assasinations. ; )

 

 

Then again, your idea almost sounds like giving every soldier a saber weapon like you'd have a commando knife in other games. Just a weapon for a quick hand to hand thing if you needed to. Kinda cool, though the purists will not take too kindly to that one (though in the early Star Wars script drafts the saber was a standard weapon of even Stormtroopers, for situations where blasters wouldn't be good). 'Sides, without Jedi reflexes, you're not going to be blocking blaster shots with the saber, sorry. Rifle butts & pistol might be more appropriate, but again, more for "fun" than useful.

 

The short range on the lightsaber would force the Jedi to be crafty....

[JawaJoey]

Unless every server adopts the playable Jedi using mods, you can always just visit another server or create your own. Otherwise you adopt the slippery slope fallacy... if Jedi become playable, the game will become Jedi only and be ruined.

 

This is what keeps me from putting bounties on those who cry for Jedis.

 

Interesting that you would bring up SWG, because, while I don't play that game (and have no plans to) I've read that it's not easy to become a Jedi, and they are limited in what they can do.

 

HA! May not be fun, but it aint exactly hard. And they're quiet uber now, as in the 2% of shots that get through the deflection do 5 damage. Don't even say it wouldn't have to be that way in Battlefront. I know that, I was just saying.

 

Making Jedi playable (PLAYABLE, not just in the game, of course they're already in the game, and no one cares, DUH) is something they would do to satisfy the people who are saber hungry. Were they to add Jedi, they could theoretically make them work.

To do this, you would have to make them non-uber, at least in comparision to the rest of the units. You couldn't make Jedi undesirable enough. Plus, if the Jedi aren't great, and bad enough that not everyone would want to be one, then what's the point? Who are you satisfying by adding a class designed to not be wanted to play?

 

Finally, no system for limiting Jedi could actually work.

Make a limit to the number of Jedi allowed-- Who would get to be Jedi? First come first serve? Every n00b would want to be a Jedi, and either whine when they didn't get it, or get it and experienced players who actually know what the heck they're doing would be pissed. Don't even get me started on the lamers. People would come in, steal the Jedi slots, then jump up onto a ledge and go AFK for three hours or something like that.

So, you make some reward system--- based on what? Kills? Command point captures? Including bots or no? what if no ones on the server, then you can get on, capture a bunch of CPs become a Jedi and slaughter the first guy who steps in. No matter what the system, there would always be some thing to do to get Jedi. That's what happened in SWG with grinding. Everyone did whatever they could to get through the grinding and become a Jedi. When everyone was doing everything for all the wrong reasons, it devalued everything that those proffessions had to offer, just through repition and inflation. If you had to capture a certain number of CPs to be a Jedi, people would just run from CP to CP, capturing all they could and letting the other guys take it so they could take it back. The point of the game is to win by capturing CPs, and when you add any alterior objective to meet, it degrades from the game.

 

But you're saying that EVEN THOUGH they could be balanced and would fit canon (in other words there's no logical reason why they couldn't be made playable in the game), you don't want them. So it's a purely subjective value-judgement based on your opinion.

 

Concession accepted then. Now it all depends on how many people want Jedi and the influence they have over those with the power to make it happen. ; )

 

Aha! Now your cause is lost! I'm glad you've accepted the basic, most important point of all of this. Now if only you'd accept it as truth that Jedi do not belong in this game. That's not simply my personal opinion. That's the opinion of many many others, and I believe it's the opinion of the creators of this game.

 

 

Jedi are not only not wanted in this game, but not needed. They wouldn't add anything. To make them fun, they'd dominate and ruin the game (I used your words intentionally, BTW). To make them balanced, they wouldn't be fun and would have no point. The game's class system and Jedi organization as it is now is great. I have no complaints, and nor do you, it would seem. It's just some people who think that Jedi should be in the game, but for no particular reason other than "It's star wars! I wanna be a Jedi! Wah wah wah!"

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by JawaJoey

HA! May not be fun, but it aint exactly hard. And they're quiet uber now, as in the 2% of shots that get through the deflection do 5 damage. Don't even say it wouldn't have to be that way in Battlefront. I know that, I was just saying.

 

K. 'Cause no way in hell would controllable Jedi's be remotely fair if they had infinite mana, infinite auto blocking and infinite health like the AI Jedi do now. Sides, that would be no fun to control! ; )

 

Making Jedi playable (PLAYABLE, not just in the game, of course they're already in the game, and no one cares, DUH) is something they would do to satisfy the people who are saber hungry.

 

Not necessarily. Are you saying that if Jedi are in the game they HAVE to be uber jedi like we'd expect to see in Jedi Outcast? No, with some modifications they can be useable, useful and fun. They need not be dueling Jedi, just Jedi used for combat, and in such a way as that they fit in with the rest of the troops.

 

Think about the regular infantry for a second. By FPS standards they are weak as hell. Note how in most FPS games you can carry a dozen weapons, and you can carry healing items, and wear armor, etc. These guys are limited to basically two weapons and a couple of grenades (if that). Their weapons have to be reloaded and run out of ammo, leaving them with a weak blaster that overheats. Plus they move somewhat slow (though they jump high I guess). These Jedi are also "dumbed down" from most FPS games that they are currently in, where they are basically superheroes or demigods (compared to these poor non-force saps).

 

 

Were they to add Jedi, they could theoretically make them work.

To do this, you would have to make them non-uber, at least in comparision to the rest of the units. You couldn't make Jedi undesirable enough. Plus, if the Jedi aren't great, and bad enough that not everyone would want to be one, then what's the point? Who are you satisfying by adding a class designed to not be wanted to play?

 

I realize maybe my "Force Long Posts" take time to read but, trust me, I addressed this and I did think about it before I posted. The point of adding a class isn't so everyone wants to be it.

 

I guess in a sense you could say that in a normal FPS you can do everything. In this game they take all the things people like to do, and split them up, so that each class can only do some of them. That forces you to use teamwork and combined tactics to get the job done, that in a "normal" FPS you could have anyone do and do by themselves. Otherwise why have class based play at all?

 

Why not just have everyone be the same?

 

Do you think the gave the Jetpack trooper a jetpack to appease the Jetpack fanboys? Did they give the rocket launcher to the Heavy Trooper Vanguard to appease the Rocket Launcher fanboys? I mean c'mon...

 

 

Finally, no system for limiting Jedi could actually work.

 

I disagree. Read over my suggestions.

 

 

Make a limit to the number of Jedi allowed-- Who would get to be Jedi? First come first serve? Every n00b would want to be a Jedi, and either whine when they didn't get it, or get it and experienced players who actually know what the heck they're doing would be pissed.

 

If you have to earn it, as I suggested, only those who earn it would get it. The "whiners" can whine all they want but they won't get to be Jedi unless they get the skill needed. So either they rack up the awards, they rescue the captured Jedi or whatever. If it's random choice then it's based simply on luck, and again they have nothing to say about it.

 

So there won't be any "first come first serve" or "fight over it" to deal with. The only trick is choosing a system (or suggesting a new one) for allocating Jedi.

 

I was thinking though that if the Jedi were balanced enough you might allow anyone to have the class if it's allowed on the map by the server, but that I am unsure about.

 

Don't even get me started on the lamers. People would come in, steal the Jedi slots, then jump up onto a ledge and go AFK for three hours or something like that.

 

An excellent point, though matches don't last that long.

 

Without an admin function that is a definate concern, but we're assuming (hoping) that this will be added anyway.

 

If Jedi are time limited, then this wouldn't be a problem, but otherwise you do have a point.

 

So, you make some reward system--- based on what? Kills? Command point captures? Including bots or no?

 

That's up to the person doing the designing. Whatever they feel is a fair way to "win" a Jedi slot. I was thinking like most enemy kills, Tank Buster, that sort of thing. It's an open question how that would be done. But the point is it wouldn't be just owning a bunch of bots (although that's still better than just anyone being a Jedi or first come first serve), but something you had to work for. I wish there was an "assists" for the team award or something, that would be nice. Like somebody who was an MVP for their team would get to be the Jedi next round.

 

what if no ones on the server, then you can get on, capture a bunch of CPs become a Jedi and slaughter the first guy who steps in.

 

You could make it so a Jedi can only be earned if X number of humans are on the server. But then again what you argue is the same problem with ANY game where a person joins first. Example: I can join first and get into a tank. You join and I blow you away with my tank at your spawn point. Or in another FPS game, I gather weapons until I'm armed to the teeth and you just have your starting weapons. Boom! Blown away at your spawn point. Muahahhaa!

 

If you tie the presence of Jedi to human players, then you elimate this problem. Though to make it possible to "train as a Jedi" it would be permissable to make the "Instant Action" (offline) version of this "mod" not require human kills (say in the offline version you can kill bots to earn the award or something).

 

No matter what the system, there would always be some thing to do to get Jedi. That's what happened in SWG with grinding.

 

True, unless the Jedi assignment was completely random. And if the task to do required humans to be there or teamwork, then what would be so bad about that?

 

Everyone did whatever they could to get through the grinding and become a Jedi. When everyone was doing everything for all the wrong reasons, it devalued everything that those proffessions had to offer, just through repition and inflation. If you had to capture a certain number of CPs to be a Jedi, people would just run from CP to CP, capturing all they could and letting the other guys take it so they could take it back. The point of the game is to win by capturing CPs, and when you add any alterior objective to meet, it degrades from the game.

 

Perhaps it could be a combination of things, like Destroy a tank, hold a control point for certain amount of time and kill a certain number of enemies. It would be complex enough and helpful enough to your team that it wouldn't be just some pointless diversion that a person could do and then screw their team over by not doing anything else ever.

 

 

Aha! Now your cause is lost! I'm glad you've accepted the basic, most important point of all of this. Now if only you'd accept it as truth that Jedi do not belong in this game. That's not simply my personal opinion. That's the opinion of many many others, and I believe it's the opinion of the creators of this game.

 

I don't think so. Because if it were, they would not have included Jedi in the first place. But they did, so the notion that they "don't belong" is merely an opinion shared by you and so many others. And not shared by the so many others who want 'em playable as an option.

 

Boo-yah! Okay, anyway...

 

 

Jedi are not only not wanted in this game, but not needed.

 

 

Not wanted? Not needed! My, you've cut me to the quick with that argument... okay, I'm kidding now, my apologies.

 

 

They wouldn't add anything.

 

 

Oh yes they would. Strategy. Fun. More of that Star Wars atmosphere that this game is so good at. And a nice refresher from that pathetic AI.

 

To make them fun, they'd dominate and ruin the game (I used your words intentionally, BTW).

 

No, limited Jedi would be fun as well.

 

What, are those limited and dumbed down infantry men fun to use? Are those dumbed down vehicles fun to use? I'm not kidding, they feel dumbed down to me compared to other FPS games.

 

But (despite a few minor quibbles about camera angles for example) they are fun to use. Why? Because it's not just one thing or the other it's the COMBINATION that makes them fun. If this were just a game about some stormtroopers and their blaster rifles I'd be quite bored. But no, they are just one little piece in the puzzle. The parts make the whole. So the Jedi isn't a seperate puzzle by himself, no he's just another piece that completements and completes the picture.

 

To make them balanced, they wouldn't be fun and would have no point.

 

So in your mind they either have to be uber and dominate the game (fun) or they have to not be in the game at all? Hmm. I don't think so. I just explained how they could be useful and fun, a compromise between the Jedi haters and fanboys if you will. I don't think it would be bad.

 

The game's class system and Jedi organization as it is now is great.

 

Right now the Jedi are worthless. They're only good for killing bots, really.

 

I have no complaints, and nor do you, it would seem.

 

Well I have complaints about the AI. The Jedi thing I got involved in because I thought the arguments being made AGAINST Jedi were very problematic, and I wanted to give the "we want Jedi" people a reality check of how the Jedi would need to be in this game to be useful (to dispel any pipe dreams of having Jedi Academy masters running around killing everything in sight).

 

It's just some people who think that Jedi should be in the game, but for no particular reason other than "It's star wars! I wanna be a Jedi! Wah wah wah!"

 

And their opposition is going "It's a gun game! I don't want 'em to be Jedi! Wah wah wah!" Right? Oh, that's right... ; )

 

I tried to explain some feasible ways that Jedi could be used in the game without them being dominating and leading to whines about "fanboys" and if you still don't agree and your bottom line is "Jedi are bad, I don't want them" well, agree to disagree then... heh.

 

G'night.

[BigBlueBoo]

yes, jedi could be implemented into the game. yes, they could power them down so that they would be playable. yes, their inclusion might add more strategies but the bottom line here is that we don't want jedi. no matter what you say or do, we don't want them. even if they were powered down so far that they were the equivalent to mice and no one would choose them, we still, wouldn't want them. this game is not about jedi, it is about grunts fighting on the front lines. so why don't you jedi 'fanboys' go play one of the other 50,000 star wars games that are based on jedi. the entire point of battlefront is being a soldier, it even says so on the back of the box.

 

'Fight as a soldier on the front lines where every weapon and vechile you see is yours'

 

also Mace Windu says, 'We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers...'

 

thus proving my point, jedi should not be in the game.

[Evil Dark Jedi]

There is another thing that makes them overpowered- They heal to full health when they are hit. I have blasted them time and time again with an AAT main cannon and the blasters and others and they didnt die. Everytime they got up they healed.

 

 

And nobody actually kills jedi I have found. They die by themselves so it seems there health goes down realy slowly as they fight. Once on Dune Sea I was a droid and I saw Mace Windu. He ran at me I didnt do a thing and he just died with out even getting shot. This was around when the clones tickets were at 15.

[Schetter]

If only people cared this much about stuff that actually mattered.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Do you think the gave the Jetpack trooper a jetpack to appease the Jetpack fanboys? Did they give the rocket launcher to the Heavy Trooper Vanguard to appease the Rocket Launcher fanboys? I mean c'mon...

 

*Episode III Spoiler*

 

 

Well, in Episode III, there is supposedly going to be a Clone Trooper with a jetpack from what I've heard.

 

 

They made missile launchers because they are very much needed for taking down vehicles. How are you going to destroy an AT-ST on Endor without a missile launcher? Throw concussion grenades? Well, enjoy getting your soldiers blown to bits.

 

There were missile launchers in the Battlefield games if my memory serves me correctly.

 

I'm all for improving the AI Jedi. Make them block realistically (can't block every shot from any direction), some Force jump, Force push, no insta-heal, and simply more intelligent. But that's it with Jedi. No more.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Schetter

If only people cared this much about stuff that actually mattered.

 

You haven't been to the Senate Forums have you?

 

Sometimes we like to argue about stuff that isn't quite so earth-shatteringly depressing and/or stressful. ; )

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by TK-8252

They made missile launchers because they are very much needed for taking down vehicles. How are you going to destroy an AT-ST on Endor without a missile launcher? Throw concussion grenades? Well, enjoy getting your soldiers blown to bits.

 

I can't very well argue something that's in Episode III since the movie isn't out yet and I haven't seen it. But whatever...

 

As to taking down AT-ST's, sure. There's other ways to take 'em down of course, artillery, ships, your own walkers. They were kind of hampered on Endor, they didn't even have rocket launchers. All they had were blasters and some explosive charges. The whole job was sending in a small force to sabotage the shield generator. They ended up destroying walkers with Logs and a Wookie driving a stolen AT-ST. ; )

 

As far as building weapons specifically to fight Jedi, there just isn't really a pressing need for it. With 10,000 Jedi spread out across a galactic conflict you're going to be facing maybe 0-1 Jedi in each battle. There are probably many battles where no Jedi are there, period. And finally when the Empire takes over, the Jedi are "all but extinct" so no reason to build anything specifically to fight them.

 

Sure, perhaps during the Jedi purge, but that's it. For all we know they die in either orbital/ship bombardments or saber duels.

 

Note: I'm staying away from Episode III spoilers, so I just have to say I'll wait for the movie (7 months to go) where that is concerned...

 

There were missile launchers in the Battlefield games if my memory serves me correctly.

 

Don't see how that's relevant. Are you saying that a lightsaber is so unprecedented it doesn't fit? Nonesense. If that's true, the other sci fi weapons don't fit either. This is the first Star Wars "battlefield" type game. I wouldn't expect them to be using slug throwers and earth-based weapons of the past.

 

I'm all for improving the AI Jedi. Make them block realistically (can't block every shot from any direction), some Force jump, Force push, no insta-heal, and simply more intelligent. But that's it with Jedi. No more. [/b]

 

I'm also for improving AI Jedi (I agree with you), though making them smarter (and perhaps not immortal... make 'em heal fast sure, but make it possible to kill them through sheer firepower after awhile), and I feel I've done enough to show that making playable Jedi could be accomplished, and avoid the nightmare scenarios proposed by some of you.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Evil Dark Jedi

There is another thing that makes them overpowered- They heal to full health when they are hit. I have blasted them time and time again with an AAT main cannon and the blasters and others and they didnt die. Everytime they got up they healed.

 

Actually this is an illusion. Next time you're shooting a Jedi with your AT-TE or whatever, watch his health bar. It never, and I mean NEVER goes down, ever. The heal thing is just an animation (a blue set of horizontal bands that glow on him after he's knocked down every so often or hit by something). It's meant to give you the impression that he's healing himself, but in reality he never took damage to begin with. He's immortal, like Boba Fett!

 

A controllable Jedi would not be immortal. That would be silly. Rather he'd have limited mana to heal himself. If you want to make the heal restore him to full, fine, but then he'll be out of mana. Or make it only heal him a little bit (like a health pack). Whatever. But I never said that controllable Jedi should be immortal like the AI Jedi and only be killed by falling off cliffs or being run over by speeders. No, that truly WOULD be "overpowered."

 

 

And nobody actually kills jedi I have found. They die by themselves so it seems there health goes down realy slowly as they fight. Once on Dune Sea I was a droid and I saw Mace Windu. He ran at me I didnt do a thing and he just died with out even getting shot. This was around when the clones tickets were at 15.

 

I've watched their health, it never goes down. The AI bots don't know how to kill Jedi (blasting them off cliffs or running them over with speeders) so they just keep shooting and shooting until they either die or the Jedi leaves them alone.

 

If the tickets were dropping, then that could account for why he just fell over and died. I had the same thing happened to Mace Windu (I was on the Clones side) when my reinforcements were dropping. At a certain point I think the computer just decides "you are too weak to have a Jedi anymore, click" and then the Jedi just keels over and he's out for the rest of the map.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by BigBlueBoo yes, jedi could be implemented into the game. yes, they could power them down so that they would be playable. yes, their inclusion might add more strategies but the bottom line here is that we don't want jedi. no matter what you say or do, we don't want them.

 

But why? Pure opinion. Like if I said "I don't want Ewoks in this game, period. No matter what you say, no matter what you do, they don't belong."

 

If I created and released a mod that allowed playable Jedi, sure, that wouldn't necessarily make you suddenly say "I Love Jedi, I want them!" but that doesn't even matter.

 

It only need matter to whoever tries to create it (be it Pandemic or some mod creator(s)).

 

In this discussion we've gotten down to the point that you guys won't reasonably accept any solution. You've given plenty of excuses, but ultimately it comes down to you just don't want there to be playable Jedi in the game. That's fine. But at least we've cut through the BS that it is "impossible" or "goes against Starwars" somehow.

 

even if they were powered down so far that they were the equivalent to mice and no one would choose them, we still, wouldn't want them.

 

So I guess you don't want them now, do you? Because they are about the equivalent to mice in the game right now. ; )

 

Lucky for you...

 

this game is not about jedi, it is about grunts fighting on the front lines.

 

Wait, now that we've already established the reason why you don't want them (because you don't want them, subjective), you jump back into the "they don't belong!" argument. Says who? Canonically they do belong, balance wise they can belong. Fact-wise they are already in the game, etc.

 

The fact is that Jedi are soldiers, and thus, they fit in with the "grunts on the front lines."

 

Nobody said that putting in "weak Jedi" as playable characters would make this game "about Jedi" except you guys. The burden of proof is on you to show that adding Jedi would turn this game into a game about Jedi rather than "grunts on the front lines."

 

so why don't you jedi 'fanboys' go play one of the other 50,000 star wars games that are based on jedi.

 

Let's take a look at the Star Wars games that are about Jedi:

 

Jedi Knight Dark Forces II, Jedi Knight Mysteries of the Sith (for the sake of argument we'll count the Expansion Pack as a "game"), Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, KOTOR, KOTOR 2 (when it comes out).

 

Hmm... Episode III game when it comes out.

 

Obi-Wan for the Xbox.

 

That's 8 games. Can you think of any more?

 

Masters of Teras Kesa I don't think counts, because over half the characters were non-Jedi and the Jedi had no special advantages.

 

SWG is mostly non-Jedi even if Jedi were added to the game later. Out of the tens or hundreds of thousands of players how many are actually Jedi. A few hundred?

 

the entire point of battlefront is being a soldier, it even says so on the back of the box.

 

And Jedi are soldiers, so I guess that means Jedi should be playable in the game. ; )

 

Play any Star Wars battle anyway you want!

 

Well what if I want to re-create the fact that Jedi fought on the front lines of the Clone War? Or that Jedi were involved in basically all the important battles of the Galactic Civil War? They're already there, just instead of being AI they'd be people. I don't see what's so horrible about that.

 

But this is distracting from the issue. I've already addressed this. The reason you don't want Jedi is because you don't want Jedi, and you'll never change that opinion (you've said so yourself). So why make excuses for it?

 

'Fight as a soldier on the front lines where every weapon and vechile you see is yours'

 

Jedi = Soldiers

 

I rest my case.

 

I see a Jedi, I guess he's not mine. He's only an AI I have no control over. Doh!

 

Aren't soldiers who don't follow orders in wartime shot?

Traitors! ; )

 

also Mace Windu says, 'We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers...'

 

You're taking his quote out of context and repeating it like a mantra. It proves nothing, except that the popular sentiment in the Jedi ranks before the Clone Wars was not to take an active part in mass hostilities.

 

That was before he was drafted (or enlisted) into the Grand Army of the Republic and starting bleeding for his King and Country. Qui Gon Jinn said something similar ("we can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you").

 

Things change. Watch AOTC again.

 

Jedi = Soldiers

 

thus proving my point, jedi should not be in the game.

 

Doesn't prove a thing, in fact the canon refutes your claim that Jedi can't or haven't been soldiers. In fact they have been. The canon TPM novelisation describes the war between the Sith and the Jedi which lasted a thousand years. And if you look into the EU, that is true as well, the Jedi are heavily involved in the military and do tons of fighting on the ground, in the air, in the sea, in space, etc. The Clone Wars Cartoon literally pounds it into the viewers head.

 

But even if you only accept the movies, we have it in black & white (actually color) that the Jedi are not just desk-jockey's, or pilots, or advisors, but front-line ground troops. If that's not soldiering, I don't know what is. ; )

[Alegis]

*joins the battle with a wooden shield and a rusty spoon*

 

*pokes at kurgan*

 

When seeing the movies, you make a difference between the "normal losers" (just soldiers) and the heroes (ALL the jedi cause they got cool powers, and some uber ones like jango). Pandemic just took a knife and split em in two and said, "hey, be the normal soldier. Just a number".

 

The deal is, ppl see, and will always see, jedi as "special". They can use the force. Balacing them would look stupid. Maybe JA doesnt have this, but this more of a battlefield. Equalling a jedi with just a soldier that picked up a gun, thats why almost no one likes the idea.

 

Jedis use lame tactics. They push you and render you immobilized which no1 likes. Thats another point.

 

 

We're just a number in this game. Not someone special.

 

the normal armies in star wars specialize in quantity, not quality.

 

 

 

As for star wars galaxies, i played it for 20 hours and havent met a single jedi. Thank god.

[BigBlueBoo]

Originally posted by Kurgan

And Jedi are soldiers, so I guess that means Jedi should be playable in the game. ; )

 

Play any Star Wars battle anyway you want!

 

Well what if I want to re-create the fact that Jedi fought on the front lines of the Clone War? Or that Jedi were involved in basically all the important battles of the Galactic Civil War? They're already there, just instead of being AI they'd be people. I don't see what's so horrible about that.

 

But this is distracting from the issue. I've already addressed this. The reason you don't want Jedi is because you don't want Jedi, and you'll never change that opinion (you've said so yourself). So why make excuses for it?

 

 

 

Jedi = Soldiers

 

I rest my case.

 

I see a Jedi, I guess he's not mine. He's only an AI I have no control over. Doh!

 

Aren't soldiers who don't follow orders in wartime shot?

Traitors! ; )

 

 

 

You're taking his quote out of context and repeating it like a mantra. It proves nothing, except that the popular sentiment in the Jedi ranks before the Clone Wars was not to take an active part in mass hostilities.

 

That was before he was drafted (or enlisted) into the Grand Army of the Republic and starting bleeding for his King and Country. Qui Gon Jinn said something similar ("we can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you").

 

Things change. Watch AOTC again.

 

Jedi = Soldiers

 

 

 

Doesn't prove a thing, in fact the canon refutes your claim that Jedi can't or haven't been soldiers. In fact they have been. The canon TPM novelisation describes the war between the Sith and the Jedi which lasted a thousand years. And if you look into the EU, that is true as well, the Jedi are heavily involved in the military and do tons of fighting on the ground, in the air, in the sea, in space, etc. The Clone Wars Cartoon literally pounds it into the viewers head.

 

But even if you only accept the movies, we have it in black & white (actually color) that the Jedi are not just desk-jockey's, or pilots, or advisors, but front-line ground troops. If that's not soldiering, I don't know what is. ; )

 

ok, number 1, jedi are not soldiers, yes they fight for the republic but only because they have to. read any books about them, they avoid killing people or causing harm, sounds like a real soldier to me.

 

so what jedi would be on each team.

 

Republic: about 10,000 jedi

CIS: Count Dooku, erm... thats it

Empire: Darth Vader, Emperor which is highly doubtful

Rebels: Luke Skywalker

 

kind of out numbered

 

and yes, you're right i dont want jedi, you start a poll, jedi or no jedi and see what wins. see how many people would rather that jedi were in this game.

 

and finally, if you're gonna make a mod with playable jedi, fine. i dont care, ill be with the majority not downloading it. just stop telling me how it would work or why they should be in the game.

 

phew

[=tom=]

after spending some time reading this post Why's Everyone Against Jedi?

im curious about the % of ppl like /dislike Jedi

 

(i dont want to have them in game, not even the AI)

 

oh and as some1 has changed the title slightly

No Flames please

and if u want to talk about the issue

please go to Why's Everyone Against Jedi?

[JawaJoey]

First of all, Kurgan, you've done an excellent job of devising a plan that could theoretically work. Also, I appreciate your optimisim that it actually would work, despite my more pessimistic view.

 

And assuming that your plans for making it work would work perfectly, just looks at all you've had to come up with to satisfy the requirments. All that just to add another class to the game. A class that isn't needed and many many people don't even want. That is a TON of work. It's a whole lot of scripting that would have to completely fabricated, as no such rules exist in the game engine. It would require vast amounts of time and work, and all just to add a not-that-special, no-one-wants-it class. Not worth it.

 

 

And if you made Jedi fun and balanced, and treated them like any other class, just it would be a bitch to get, then Jedi are hardly special. And it's the special-ness of Jedi that people want.

 

 

Aside from that, it's good to see that you understand what this basically comes down to, a difference of opinion.

It's a shame you just don't seem to get it.

This game isn't about Jedi.

This game is great without them.

It's supposed to be without them.

You're one grunt on a normal battlefield.

You're not a hero.

Your buddy's not a hero.

If your lucky you catch a glimpse of Luke Skywayler running bye and you get all excited because you were within relative proximity to someone who IS a hero.

Jedis are heroes to the common soldiers.

They're special, their above, their divine, at least from the viewpoint of your average Joe.

They're rare.

They aren't a standard part of a fighting force or any battle.

This game is about the ground battles of Star Wars. This isn't Han Luke and Chewie inflitrating the detention area on the Death Star to save the princess, this is a bunch of normal guys shooting a bunch of other guys to get control of this place.

Jedi adds another dimension to this game, but it adds a dimension that contradicts the basis for the rest of the game.

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Actually this wasn't the argument, the argument was that Jedi are too powerful or don't fit into the movies.

They fit in the movies fine. Just not in this game in the way you want them to.

Originally posted by Kurgan

Concession accepted then. Now it all depends on how many people want Jedi and the influence they have over those with the power to make it happen. ; )

I don't know lets take a poll

Originally posted by Kurgan

(1) I see it as this: Imagine the game exactly as it is now, with only one Jedi per team if the server allows it, except now that Jedi is not "invincible" and can be controlled by a human. Even without the limitations I suggested, that's still really no big deal.

 

(2) But it depends on how Jedi are implemented. If they are a special bonus that is only awarded for doing certain things, it might be impossible to get Jedi unless you played a normal game then kicked everybody out. And you could prevent that from happening by making it so if your team is gone, you stop being a Jedi (minimum player number on a team for a Jedi to be usable).

 

(3) If you are limited to only one Jedi per team, this problem disappears. Did anyone actually read what I wrote?

 

So you want to make it so only 1 person can play a Jedi per game of up to 50 people. Then you get into "you can't make Jedi a special reward class unless they are in fact special beyond that of being a simple soldier." Then only again 1 person can be one? That doesn't sound very fare to the rest of the players.

 

I could stand to think that the idea of making them playable came up and they thought of some of the ideas you stated. Maybe this is why the Jedi are like they are in the game now and not selectable you think?

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I've never seen that, but then I haven't played MP all that much. In Siege it was never my experience that everyone used the same class (well, I admit, the default Assault class was used a lot, mainly because he could accomplish every objective, and was the easiest to learn, even if other classes were better at certain objects and weak on others).

I alwasy saw alot more Jedi then anything. Alot of times I played one myself why? Because they could acomplish every objective. I have gone through a many of game as a Jedi and made all the objectives myself.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I'm using my experiences as an online game, and common sense based on the fact that developers can implement solutions to balance problems (or percieved problems) if they set their minds to it. I'm also using the logic of the Star Wars films, that some are trying to use as a reason why Jedi shouldn't be controllable in this game, which I have pointed out (using examples from the films) as invalid. The Star Wars mythos itself refutes their claims. So in the end we just have a person animus in seeing people control Jedi in a game.

 

So you want to use the logic of the Star Wars films? Great....

 

There was only ever 2 Jedi in any of the battles in the original trilogy. Darth Vader wouldn't fight along side infantry and Luke wasn't even close to being a Jedi tell the end. Where in any of the battles of the original trilogy did you see either one of them running around with ground forces hacking enemies up with their lightsaber?

 

(EP4) There was only one real Battle and that was in space no Jedi lightsabers there.

 

(EP5) Battle of Hoth. What all did Luke do with his lightsaber? Hack the bottom of a AT-AT and throw a bomb in it. He never engaged troops and if he had most likely would have used his blaster. He wasn't a Jedi. (I get this from when Boba Fett shot at him in the halls of Besbin what did Luke pull out a Lightsaber...? Nope he pulled out his blaster.) Not tell he faced Vader alone did he use a Lightsaber and that is after a small amount of training by Yoda.

 

(EP6) Battle of Endor Where was Luke and Vader? Ahh yep they were on the Death Star fighting alone and the grunts were on the ground no Jedi around. I guess you could count the escape from Jabba, but that wasn't part of the war and that fight isn't an option in the game. There was also only one Jedi.

 

Now we get to the new trilogy.

 

(EP1) None of the battles in EP1 are in the game in MP, but in SP and there are only 3 Jedi present on the planet. They are not in the game. Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, and Maul. These Jedi are more worried with fighting each other then anyone else.

 

(EP2) The only movie so far that has depicted mass Jedi in combat and they are all on the same side except 1 Count Dooku. If you think your going to see him running around with Droid Troops hacking up Cloners I think you might be wrong. (Not to forget he is a powerful Jedi, but you want to add him in game as a relative grunt with a glowstick?) (This is done with the AI bots, but how real is that to what actually happened or would happen?)

 

There was a pretty good Number of Jedi in the battle on Geonosis and from what I could tell they were exceptional. They vastly out powered the Droids in abilities, skills, and there were a lot more of them then 1.

 

(EP3) Yet to be determined, but let me guess the number of Jedi between both sides is the same as EP2. So unless you want to put Jedi in the clone campaigns only, make them selectable for the Republic only, and more then 1 your are not being logical to the Star Wars movies.

 

This game isn't based on the heroes or Jedi it's based on the grunts that fought in the battles. That is how the developers wanted this game and that is how it is and why Jedi have the part that they do. So looking at the logic of the Star Wars films the game is pretty dead on if not for the bots.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

(1) But you're saying that EVEN THOUGH they could be balanced and would fit canon (in other words there's no logical reason why they couldn't be made playable in the game), you don't want them. So it's a purely subjective value-judgement based on your opinion.

 

(2) It isn't a bad thing no, it's just a personal taste.

 

(3) Your reasoning now is purely a matter of taste, and that's not something I can argue, because I'm not you, and your preferences are you own.

You want them in game this a matter of taste and a purely subjective value-judgment based on your opinion.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I'm glad we had this discussion, it's really opened my eyes to your line of reasoning. I don't agree with it, but at least I understand it now.

Your little statement here has done the same for me, but I won't loss any sleep over it. Moderator or not don't be a hypocrite.

[sircursealot]

Jedi would be nice, but I really don't mind that there aren't any...

[Cosmos Jack]

Crap you beat me to it.

 

Originally posted by zeppelin_tom

(i dont want to have them in game, not even the AI)

I second that.

[Kurgan]

Sadly, while I disagree with the whole "Nooo, Jedis are for st00pid fanboyz only!!!111" argument (see the debate thread mentioned above), I do think that the Jedi (like the rest of the AI in this game out of box and with the first two patches) is pretty lack-luster.

 

Until the AI gets some serious tweaks and improvements I can sympathize with those who choose not to use it.

 

However, the Jedi fit perfectly in with the rest of the battle (watch the movies, especially AOTC, Jedi Soldiers are canon, see above thread), they just don't enhance it like they're supposed to. Like the rest of the bad AI, when you see them being stupid, it takes you out of the illusion.

 

So hopefully future patches will fix this problem...