Homosexuality: a tool of war

[Hiroki]

I must've missed Insane Sith's post. Nope, every little sin won't send you to hell. Even if you don't repent. Though you'll feel better if you do. The only one that would, is if you stated, and truly meant in your heart, that there is no God, or that you wish God to leave you alone. I believe that is the only one.

 

By Spider -

"So if you believe that God would send a good man who did not enter the churches of christianity- to hell, then you're a slave of dogma who has little understanding of his own religion's REAL meaning and purpose and message, and you merely show your slavishness with your words. Fundamentalist christianity, what a load of silliness."

 

And it doesn't say you HAVE to go to Church, I never said that. You put words into my mouth once more. But yeah, you should ask Jesus into your heart. That is hardly a huge effort. It doesn't say get down on your knees and beg for him.

[ET Warrior]

Ugh, don't even get me started on the issue of homosexuality. I honestly don't know why on EARTH it is SO IMPORTANT that we spend our time trying to ban teh homos marriage. Doesn't it seem more reasonable to spend our efforts on things that matter? Like the war in Iraq, our stagnant economy, our dependence on middle eastern oil, social security, healthcare....you know, the things that actually MATTER?

 

Marilyn Musgrave got elected as one of Colorados Representatives (again ) and the FIRST Thing she's working on is the consitutional ban on gay marriage. HONESTLY, is there NOTHING else that matters?

 

I personally, however, think anyone who is pro marriage in general but anti-homosexual marriage is being biggotous and stupid and closed minded on the issue.

[TK-8252]

ET should be a politician.

[Ice Demon44]

Originally posted by ET Warrior

Ugh, don't even get me started on the issue of homosexuality. I honestly don't know why on EARTH it is SO IMPORTANT that we spend our time trying to ban teh homos marriage. Doesn't it seem more reasonable to spend our efforts on things that matter? Like the war in Iraq, our stagnant economy, our dependence on middle eastern oil, social security, healthcare....you know, the things that actually MATTER?

 

Marilyn Musgrave got elected as one of Colorados Representatives (again ) and the FIRST Thing she's working on is the consitutional ban on gay marriage. HONESTLY, is there NOTHING else that matters?

 

I personally, however, think anyone who is pro marriage in general but anti-homosexual marriage is being biggotous and stupid and closed minded on the issue.

 

I find this a very important topic, because the american people treat it as so. Then again, I wouldn't if it was left alone. I can't see how Bush won if there is a god, seeing as how life is more valuable than sexual preference.

Bush uses his religion.

If the christian community wasn't so ignorant, they would look at more important thing, for example life for a citizen in iraq, bush spending so much money on developing nuclear war heads and using nuclear war heads as an excuse to invade a country.

[Spider AL]

Nope, every little sin won't send you to hell. Even if you don't repent. Though you'll feel better if you do. The only one that would, is if you stated, and truly meant in your heart, that there is no God, or that you wish God to leave you alone. I believe that is the only one.

Eh, what about fricking murder then? Or nicking poor people's money?

 

And are you saying that all atheists are going to hell even if they lead the most "Christian" lives possible, while a Christian murderer and rapist is going to heaven because he's said "I repent"? Madness. Utter madness.

 

And it doesn't say you HAVE to go to Church, I never said that. You put words into my mouth once more. But yeah, you should ask Jesus into your heart. That is hardly a huge effort. It doesn't say get down on your knees and beg for him.

Guh, you missed the point. What you're saying is that anyone who hasn't gone through the dogmatic rigmarole of "asking Jesus to come into their heart" is going to hell. That's rubbish, and not true Christianity. It's heretical.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by TK-8252

ET should be a politician.

 

I'm too smart to go into politics

 

 

I find this a very important topic, because the american people treat it as so.

 

And therein lies the problem. Why treat it as an important topic? WHY does it matter who mr. Sanders next door sleeps with and is married to? Is YOUR life going to be affected by this? No.

 

Of course your life will invariably be affected by what happens with Health care and Social Security, or what we're going to do when we run out of oil, but those are in the future, the gays are now!

[Hiroki]

Oh? And what would you know of "True Christianity"? Lets hear what you have to say, since you are such a Holy Man.

 

And well of course things like Murder, Rape, or stealing from the poor are things you will seriously need to repent for. Also, where the hell did you get the stuff about Christian murderers and rapists go to heaven? Now I'm confused. I meant you don't need to get down and pray for forgiveness for every little sin you commit.

 

Obviously if they are murdering and raping people, they are not really Christians. I'm not really sure how you get such things out of what I say. *shrugs*

[Spider AL]

Either you're being intentionally obtuse, Hiroki, or you need to read more carefully. It's very simple:

 

You say that denying the existence of God is a sin serious enough to send you to hell. Quote:

Nope, every little sin won't send you to hell. Even if you don't repent. Though you'll feel better if you do. The only one that would, is if you stated, and truly meant in your heart, that there is no God, or that you wish God to leave you alone. I believe that is the only one.

Therefore, atheists are going to hell by your reasoning.

 

Secondly, you seem to genuinely believe that if you are Christian and you repent of your sins, (and let Christ into your heart,) you will enter the kingdom of heaven. Quotes:

 

every little sin won't send you to hell. Even if you don't repent.

But yeah, you should ask Jesus into your heart.

Put it together:

 

By your logic, an atheist who never harms another soul in his life, because he denies the existence of god, is going to hell.

 

And a man who rapes someone, then feels sorry and scared for his immortal soul, and repents and "asks Jesus to come into his heart", is going to heaven.

 

That's what your beliefs add up to, a good man goes to hell while a man who has done evil goes to heaven.

 

You've learned Christ's teachings well.

 

Not.

 

Oh? And what would you know of "True Christianity"? Lets hear what you have to say, since you are such a Holy Man.

I've been christian. I've been a few things. And I retain a lot of spiritual belief. I have no time for pseudo-Christian fundamentalists.

[El Sitherino]

I have a question.

 

Would you be oh so offended if two gay men(or women) got a buddhist wedding?

Or a Hindu wedding (excluding the fact they also don't look too kindly on gays)

or even a shinto wedding?

Or how about just a civil union with the same rights as a married couple, joint tax filing, lower insurance rate, etc.

[Spider AL]

Or how about just a civil union with the same rights as a married couple, joint tax filing, lower insurance rate, etc.

I'm opposed to this and only this, but then I'm opposed to anyone getting government financial support just because they live in the same house, shag each other and fight all the time.

[El Sitherino]

financial support? I'm not talking about some gay welfare system. Just the same rights as any other couple.

 

Originally posted by Ice Demon44

InsaneSith- I thought that any sin would send you to hell if you hadn't repented, and or sacrificed before Jesus "came".

correct me if I am wrong

uhmm... what?

[Spider AL]

financial support? I'm not talking about some gay welfare system. Just the same rights as any other couple.

Other couples shouldn't get financial breaks either.

[SkinWalker]

Joint tax returns don't necessarily save money. Occasionally, my wife and I do better at filing "married but separate" returns. Tax incentives exist for families because households produce more income when combined and, therefore, spend more money on capital goods (homes, cars, appliances, luxury items, etc). This type of expenditure is generally positive for a given economy.

 

Also, duel income families are more likely to invest their money. In addition, the stability of duel income/duel parent households is an advantage to raising children. Such advantages make it more likely for children to complete high school, continue to college, etc. College educated people have better advantages in job hunting.....

 

These are also valid arguments for the legalization/recognition of same-sex marriage.

 

Same-sex unions doesn't necessarily imply that two people are married because they want to have sex. They marry for the same reason(s) as opposing-sex couples: love, compassion, friendship, commitment, respect, the desire to begin a family, etc. These people will be together regardless of the law. There is no logical reason to prevent a same-sex couple who decides to spend a lifetime with each other the legal right to estate following the death of a partner, or the ability to make decisions for the partner in the same way that other husbands/wives do in times of medical crisis.

 

There can also be situations in which a same-sex couple share a household, share income, share benefits, and share a love for each other and have no interest in having sexual relations with each other. The only perversion present in the same-sex marriage debate is that those opposed think that the main focus of homosexuals is to have sex 24/7. They're no more or less interested in sex than the rest of the world.

[Mike Windu]

Originally posted by Hiroki

Wow Spider, you really are a moderate.

 

Mike Windu - Hey, lets put it this way. Why, after you created an entire universe, created all of the animals on the Earth, and then created mankind, would you allow people into heaven who do not even acknowledge your existence? Seems a little ungrateful on the humans part.

 

If you read all that God had done, and how much ingratitude, and foolishness many showed towards him, you could understand. He loves everybody, but why would he let those calling him stereotypical and pompous? Would you let somebody who was standing at your doorstep, calling you names, inside of your house? I don't think so.

 

Gee, wasn't this the God that forgave us for our "sins?" Wasn't this the God that was so understanding, so caring, so passionate to the survival of our race?

 

I wasn't aware God needed gratitude. But hell, it sure seems like it. Worship him for your life, and what do you get to do when you arrive in heaven? YES! WORSHIP HIM MORE! Gosh, it seems so fun. I think I'll go pray right now.

 

Honestly, isn't Christianity about being selfless, about helping others?

 

So why then, do we kill people who just happen to be different? Are they some virus to Christians? Universalizing religions not withstanding, do you see other religions killing for the supposed glory of their people? To save them?

 

Isn't this just like wiping out Romans and Indians so many years ago because they would not convert?

 

Feh.

[El Sitherino]

originally posted by Hiroki

Would you let somebody who was standing at your doorstep, calling you names, inside of your house? I don't think so.

remember not to assume, it only makes an ASS out of U, and let's ME laugh.

 

I would let them in, probably ask them why they're calling me names, if they continue, then I'll probably tell them to leave.

[Druid Bremen]

Indeed, Sith. I too, will do the same. Find out the source of the dissent, not just kick the person out of your house, because pretty soon more people will be banging on your door. Fix the problem, make everyone happy, and... Everyone's happy.

[Hiroki]

When did you use netspeak?

 

Anyway, why should I let them in? If they're stupid enough to stand outside of my house yelling insults at me, I want nothing to do with them. Also, you have no right to talk about assuming, that is all you have done in regards to me.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by Hiroki

When did you use netspeak?

 

Anyway, why should I let them in? If they're stupid enough to stand outside of my house yelling insults at me, I want nothing to do with them. Also, you have no right to talk about assuming, that is all you have done in regards to me.

not really.

I speak from what I've seen, not once did I assume anything about you.

 

and see that's the difference between you and god. God is supposedly understanding and merciful, while you are a human, with obvious lines where if someone crosses they get nothing. God though is all merciful, he supposedly allows everyone a chance into heaven, aka his house.

[CapNColostomy]

Homosexuality: a tool of war? And here I was thinking it was a way to have sex with someone that has the same equipment.

 

Anyhow, I was just wondering how it is that gay people not being granted marriage or union, or being otherwise treated unfairly is comparible to the "wiping out" of "romans and indians." Even if the election this year was dominated by the religious right anti gay vote, I think there might be some degree of public outcry if we started shuttling gay folks off to reservations but only after we've killed and raped most of them and stolen their land. Or got them drunk and bought it really cheap. Whichever.

 

The second thing I'd like to mention, is how much it ammuses me to see how uninformed all of you Christian bashers are. Every time it seems like you're about to make a good point, you throw in something along the lines of "oh but wait, isn't this supposed to be the same mercyful, forgiving, blah blah blah bearded grandfatherly nice guy god blah blah blah, well if that's true, then what about blah blah blah?!?!"

Nobody ever mentions any of the other words used to describe him. Such as VENGEFUL, WRATHFUL, JEALOUS. That's just an observation I've made that I find ammusing. Otherwise, most of the time, if I didn't know any better, I'd agree with you.

[El Sitherino]

I'll say what the christians say when I bring up that god.

 

"that's the old god"

[CapNColostomy]

Originally posted by InsaneSith

I'll say what the christians say when I bring up that god.

 

"that's the old god"

 

And that's a new one on me. We're not talking about features on a friggin' appliance here. God is God. Why can't everyone just admit that I'm always right?

[Ray Jones]

old god, new god, old testament, new testament..

 

next year they release god & testament 2005, upgrade version, now with support for spherical earth 1.5, multiple universes and alien 2.0; requires premarriage sex, condoms and at least one homosexual friend.

 

only $99.95

[CapNColostomy]

Originally posted by RayJones

old god, new god, old testament, new testament..

 

And what does that have to do with anything? Oh, I see. You're saying that since it's called "new" testament, that somehow it must be talking about a new different God. Do me a favor and do your homework before you go throwing around these little faces. Look in your new testament again. Or for the first time, I should say, and tell me God is never described as vengeful or wrathful or jealous.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

but I'll also fight against trendy-lefty indoctrination that makes people ignore the GOOD things in Christianity and other religions, and label them incorrectly.

 

And once again I will make it very clear that the Bible contains many good principles as well as some bad ones. I've said this clearly from the very beginning of my argument.

 

..so how I'm making anybody ignore the good things about Christianity by clearly stating that the good parts exist and that they ARE good principles is...

...well, I give up trying to understand why you pin any of this outlandish stuff on me really

(I'm sure you have your reasons / issues, I just can't be bothered to try and work them out anymore)

 

..if your gonna accuse me of 'indoctrination' , the least you can do is be clear on what my supposed 'indoctrination' is actually saying...

 

I don't ignore any part of the Bible, which is why I can see the good AND the bad - without ignoring one over the other.

...it's what is known as an impartial, balanced judgement, taking the WHOLE subject matter into account - not just looking at the bits you like, and then ignoring the rest.

 

Good luck with your fight against those who claim the Bible doesn't contain anything worthy of merit. Not sure who your fighting against, cos it ain't me. (I'm guessing their 'trendy-lefty', whoever they are...)

 

But good luck anyway...

 

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Skinwalker, I'm sure this has the potential to flame up again, so can it be acknowledged that I am clearly being mis-represeted here?!

I'm clearly stating that my point of view on the Bible is that there is both good and bad in it, and yet what is being thrown back at me is 'Why are you ignoring the good in the Bible?!'

 

...huh?! I just said there is good in it!!. You can try and argue I'm seeing bad where there is none. I consider that a worthy debate. But to incinuate that I am claiming there is NO good in the Bible is clear, continued mis-representation...

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

CapNColostomy actaully DOES have the right idea about Biblical God. THe God of the New Testament has just as much capacity for being vengeful, jealous and wrathful as the Old Testament God - because God is God, no matter what human time period your referencing..

...take this from people who have actually read it. Cover to cover.

 

...again, for anybody who thinks God's wrath ended a long time ago, re-read Revelations...

 

The only difference of note CapNColostomy and myself are probably gonna have is whether we actually like this 'God' - due to whether the actions of God that I would call 'bad' he would nessesarily call 'bad'.

...but at least were talking from the same hymn sheet (pun intended).

 

 

...and finally (to bring this all back on topic), all this has everything to do with homosexuals, as homosexuals are currently directly in the firing line of Christian attitudes.

 

...yes, most Christians are listening more and more to the good side of the Bible and at least not wiring the nads of their gay brothers up to electric generators in an effort to 'cure' them (or at least this kind of activity is generally frowned upon), but there is still a long way to go for Christian 'morality' on this particular issue...

[Ray Jones]

the point of was another.

 

it was not the "new god because of the new testament" thing, in fact there are two "different" gods described, one more vengeful one more loving, but that's merely blah blah blah for me. or mayeb i just get something wrong. but that's not the point, either.

 

the point is:

if it'as all so true and there is only one truth, then why is there a new and an old testament? how can there be differences?

i thought truths never change.. or, more correctly, FACTS never change. truth is what you make out of it.

 

 

and dont be so angry and "do-your-homework-before-you-something-ish", please.

taking smilies offensive is err.. i mean.. internet forum, m'kay??