Am I The Only One?

[Sulaco]

Who thought this game was pretty bad? I felt like I was let down. I think there was way more hype than this game was worthy of. I hope KOTOR III is developed by Bioware. That's all I can say.

[Boba Rhett]

The story and fleshing out of characters (the lack thereof) was my only large grievance.

[Sidney]

I thought the characters were much less well developed. The lack of the romance cut into the character. I mean it was hinted at in the almost cat fight with Handmaiden and Visas but never went anywhere.

 

The other issue in the game is that a Dark Side consular is the grand pooba and that affects my perception. Once you get Insantiy the game is over. Blast your foes with that, force strom, force storm, collect goods, rinse and repeat.

[RedHawke]

Originally posted by Sidney

The other issue in the game is that a Dark Side consular is the grand pooba and that affects my perception. Once you get Insantiy the game is over. Blast your foes with that, force strom, force storm, collect goods, rinse and repeat.

You actually have a problem with this?

 

Now you have me curious... What would you prefer happen? That the powers only work some of the time... or not at all? To have to use your saber all the time... then what use would the Powers or the Consular Class be?

 

What would be the reason to have them selectable in the first place?

 

Combat is not the main point of any RPG... it is a means to an end... nothing more.

 

I found it refreshing that I could have a Consular and not have to constantly use my Saber in combat, to be able just to use powers is pretty darned accurate to me.

 

This is in no way meant to be a flame of any sort Sidney, I just am intrigued by your dismay at this part of the game. I found it to be accurate, and quite good.

 

[Hannibal]

Because of Halo 2 and GTASA this game had no hype. At any point on the front page of any game website those 2 games were constantly on them but KOTOR2 wasn't.

 

But it definitely wasn't as good as the first one. IMHO. H=Humble.

[Cyborgninja]

I don't think anything will be better than the first kotor

[Zonzai]

Originally posted by RedHawke

You actually have a problem with this?

 

 

My problem with it is that it's just way too easy. There is no challenge in it. I prefer the bad guys to offer me some threat. I'm going to have to go with Cyborgninja on this, KOTOR1 is hard to top, even if the game didn't have a myriad of glitches, wasn't unbalanced and didn't have any plot flaws.

[Jedi Jarf]

i thought it got kinda though if you start with the game level on difficult, and i loved the game i just thought the characters could have more of a backround and i hated the ending....2004 a year of bad game endings...

 

Halo 2

 

Halfl life 2

 

KOTOR 2

 

all bad endings..whats this world coming too, spend 50 bucks on a game then once you beat it yell at the moniter!!!! jeez

[Nrak Ujhade]

lol year of the Matrix:Reloaded endings

perhaps if they waited till a 2005 release (early or late I dont care as long as they acutally play test it once) it would have had less bugs and some changes but still I got no prob with it...cept the ending

[RedHawke]

Originally posted by Zonzai

My problem with it is that it's just way too easy. There is no challenge in it. I prefer the bad guys to offer me some threat.

Well then IMHO you are trying to attribute FPS elements to an RPG, and by doing so you aren't giving the RPG its due, they aren't about difficult combat, that's strictly the area of the FPS, RPG's are more about the plot, and using combat/adventure to advance said plot.

 

Also the threat level from the "bad guys" is completely variable in an RPG like this one, as everything is based on random die rolls, you can play a combat out several times, and you will find the results can vary.

 

If you still find it too easy then you can enhance the game even further, by foregoing wearing any items and not using extra upgrades for your robes and saber, you might find the difficulty quite the opposite using this system.

 

Just my 2 cents!

[Zonzai]

RedHawke,

 

I want to first say that I find your mods very enjoyable to play around with. However, as I mentioned, I find them also unbalancing as far as difficulty is concerned. You obviously have a very different opinion of what a challenge is than I do. No matter what type of game one plays, fps, rpg, rts or any other game, there is some degree of challenge to it, whether that challenge is weak or strong. A good example of an rpg that is well balanced, that doesn't involve shooting people from a first-person view is the original KOTOR.

 

Now, just because you and I don't see eye to eye on this doesn't mean that you can insinuate that I don't know what I'm talking about because I play first-person shooters. This isn't a FPS and you are the only (that I have heard of) who has made that connection. Second, the threat from the bad guys is not much of a variable if I launch off two force storms. Even on the hardest setting, 99% of the time everybody in range dies. Not to say that the game isn't variable, it's just that 1% isn't much of a variable.

 

Now here's the thing. You don't care about that, from your mods this much is obvious and I can live with that. I still like your mods, even if I don't play with them. But not everybody here likes to play the same way that you do. You are free to share your two cents, but when you insinuate that I don't know what I'm saying because I disagree with you, you're being ridiculous. And when you say that I should be finding ways to make the game harder, you are being rather insulting. You are free to have your opinion of what a challenge should be and there are many modders and players who are like you. But please do not insult my intellect simply because you disagree. I wouldn't do that to you. And we both know that it isn't the gamers job to balance the game anyway, it's the developer's. And as much as you and I like KOTOR, and Star Wars, even we have to admit that this game needs some tweaking.

[90SK]

I'm hoping that this "ending" we've been hearing about is just a bad attempt at a prelude to a sequal, though I'm not sure how that would work out.

[RedHawke]

Originally posted by Zonzai

RedHawke,

 

I want to first say that I find your mods very enjoyable to play around with.

Well thank you!

Originally posted by Zonzai

However, as I mentioned, I find them also unbalancing as far as difficulty is concerned. You obviously have a very different opinion of what a challenge is than I do.

Apparently we do, but you also seem to have some misconceptions about what is difficult and what is unbalanced. (No insult intended here.)

 

Also most of the stuff I have made for KOTOR doesn't change the game much, beyong the first 3 Item Packs I made, most simply add something to the game, like making NPC's Jedi... hardly imbalancing.

Originally posted by Zonzai

No matter what type of game one plays, fps, rpg, rts or any other game, there is some degree of challenge to it, whether that challenge is weak or strong. A good example of an rpg that is well balanced, that doesn't involve shooting people from a first-person view is the original KOTOR.

I agree there should be a challenge to any game, and that challenge is different for each type of game you listed, a FPS should be a challenge of reflexes, an RPG should be a challenge of intellect, an RTS should be a challenge of Tactics and Cunning.

Originally posted by Zonzai

Now, just because you and I don't see eye to eye on this doesn't mean that you can insinuate that I don't know what I'm talking about because I play first-person shooters. This isn't a FPS and you are the only (that I have heard of) who has made that connection.

Read back in the threads around these boards, there are way too many people who make this connection. The whole JA vs. KOTOR ones are pretty funny IMHO. And asking for difficult combat elements are the realms of the FPS not an RPG.

 

I never insinuated you didn't know what you were talking about, just that IMO you seemed confused about what type of game you were addressing here that is all. (Again I'm not trying to insult you here.)

Originally posted by Zonzai

Second, the threat from the bad guys is not much of a variable if I launch off two force storms. Even on the hardest setting, 99% of the time everybody in range dies. Not to say that the game isn't variable, it's just that 1% isn't much of a variable.

And this should be expected, because Force Storm is an 18th level power and at that point you are close to the games ending anyway and are quite powerful to boot. Does KOTOR have problems handling this... yes... is a fix available? Sort-of... The Hardcore Mod helps to balance opponents from just this complaint.

 

With the example you gave, you are actually having problems with the WOTC D20 system itself, it is the D20 system that has these fallacies, not KOTOR or even KOTOR:TSL, it is simply following the rules of the D20 system, and it gets imbalanced at higher levels.

Originally posted by Zonzai

Now here's the thing. You don't care about that, from your mods this much is obvious and I can live with that. I still like your mods, even if I don't play with them. But not everybody here likes to play the same way that you do.

And where does this wild shot from left-field about me not caring, come in to play... If we are supposed to be addressing the issue of normal game balance? Also I never mentioned any "Mods" in my posts? (But I see no insult was intended by this emotional statement on your part so I didn't take any.)

 

I play with versions of my mods... yes, I also use the aforementioned Hardcore Mod, and a few others, using them creates a sense of balance in the crummy D20 systems restrictions.

 

Besides, I have stated multimple times that some of my mods should be played with the Hardcore mod just to maintain game balance, if I didn't care I wouldn't have said a thing.

Originally posted by Zonzai

You are free to share your two cents, but when you insinuate that I don't know what I'm saying because I disagree with you, you're being ridiculous.

You are also free to do the same, this is a forum after all, it is meant to have opinions... but you seem to be taking things a little too personally, and are a little too easily offended, when no offense was given by the other party.

 

Not once did I say "Zonzai is a *Insert Personal Attack Word Here*"

 

That would be an insult... I never did such a thing...

Originally posted by Zonzai

And when you say that I should be finding ways to make the game harder, you are being rather insulting.

I was attempting to help you with my post... not insult you... I never once insulted you... anywhere.

Originally posted by Zonzai

You are free to have your opinion of what a challenge should be and there are many modders and players who are like you. But please do not insult my intellect simply because you disagree.

And you are free to have your opinion as well... and I'm still trying to figure out where the "insult" took place?

Originally posted by Zonzai

And we both know that it isn't the gamers job to balance the game anyway, it's the developer's. And as much as you and I like KOTOR, and Star Wars, even we have to admit that this game needs some tweaking.

I agree that it isn't the gamers job to balance the game, but it is not the game that needs anything "tweaked", the system it is based on needs the "tweaking" that is the secret to most of the games existing problems, is the flawed D20 system it is based on, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And that is the point I was trying to make, in that to make the game a challenge we need to either add things on, or stop using features in the game to increase the games difficulty... and that was not meant to insult you... in any way.

 

At this point I think we need to Agree to Disagree on this subject.

 

I hope this is OK with you!

[Zonzai]

Originally posted by RedHawke

Read back in the threads around these boards, there are way too many people who make this connection. The whole JA vs. KOTOR ones are pretty funny IMHO. And asking for difficult combat elements are the realms of the FPS not an RPG.

 

I don’t understand what makes you think I am one of those people? I don't believe that I have said anything of the sort. And I agree whole-heartedly that the comparison is ridiculous. And I certainly don’t want to see that sort of thing in this game - it would ruin it.

 

Originally posted by RedHawke

I never insinuated you didn't know what you were talking about, just that IMO you seemed confused about what type of game you were addressing here that is all. (Again I'm not trying to insult you here.)

 

With my 14 years of making pen & pencil rpg's and 10 years of playing computer rpg's I am anything but confused on this topic. I am only saying that Force Storm is too powerful and that KOTOR(1) didn't have that problem because it was properly tested and balanced. Not that I think it glorifies anything but my geekiness, but with my experience I do know how to recognize an untested and unbalanced game mechanic. And if you ever play the Star Wars d20 system to higher levels you will know very well that Force Lightning doesn't kill all the bad guys in the room in two hits unless they are comparatively low level. The point is that the bad guys in the end of the game were either too low level or the highly altered force lightning system of the KOTOR series is very unbalanced at high levels. Either way, it should have been fixed before the game was released. Your suggestion that I am confusing my genres is the only thing I find confusing about at the moment. I don’t understand how what I have said would infer that.

 

Originally posted by RedHawke

And that is the point I was trying to make, in that to make the game a challenge we need to either add things on, or stop using features in the game to increase the games difficulty... and that was not meant to insult you... in any way.

 

Yes, it can be fixed with mods and I look forward to the mods that you and all of the people at halowan labs will come up with for the PC version. But I still believe that it is a sad day when a console game, and more so a sequel to a meticulously balanced game, comes out so unbalanced (for whatever reasons) that the modding community or any other form of artificial alterations, are the only hope for balance that it has. And you are right in that you don't have to agree with me. I just want to be very clear on this point because there is some obvious miscommunication here though the source of it eludes me at this time.

 

And just so that you know, I have gone so far as to make a sentinel with an eight Wisdom and Charisma to test this out. And only then does Force Storm kill everybody in the room with three hits. I have now played through KOTOR2 six times and no matter what I do save running around with no weapons and using no Force Powers makes the game harder and then I just die. To me, the unbalanced issues whether systematic or intellectual take the game down a notch or two. And again, I’ll agree to disagree, I just want to make very certain that my meaning is properly communicated without confusion.

[Whitebloodcell]

Off Topic I realise and apologise for that, but did you really think the ending to HL2 and HALO2 were that bad? I thought the Halo Ending sets it up well for a sequel (admittedly it slightly annoying) but the HL2 ending I thought perfect. What would you prefer? I didnt think it was good until I did some reading about the whole Half Life Saga however. I'm not being awkward, alot of people agree with you but I just don't undertand why they were bad.

[FiEND_138]

Originally posted by Sulaco

Who thought this game was pretty bad? I felt like I was let down.

"Bad", no. Rushed, yes. IMO, OE should have told LA & MS to go to hell & not push release up & left it at Feb., if not longer. But what can you do when multi million dollar companies hold a dagger at you're throat?

 

I didn't feel let down though, I'm still going to be buying it in Feb. when the PC release comes. Perhaps you should have kept your expectations in check & not listen/buy into all the "hype" surrounding a game, or anything for that matter, thus no disappointment. But thats just my opinion...

[Emperor Pangasa]

Redhawk, you and the other modders rock. Zonzais opinion fall on deaf ears, I really don't care if the game is unbalanced. To blantantly criticize someone elses work is beyond me, If Zonzai thinks he/she can do a better job? I would like to Zonzai produce a mod that would balance the game instead of shooting off and complaining about how powerful the mods. Zonzai if you can do a better job, then do it. If it where up to people like Zonzai ther would be no mods. Keep up the good work Redhawk and ignore such opinions.

[Sidney]

Originally posted by RedHawke

You actually have a problem with this?

 

Now you have me curious... What would you prefer happen? That the powers only work some of the time... or not at all? To have to use your saber all the time... then what use would the Powers or the Consular Class be?

 

Combat is not the main point of any RPG... it is a means to an end... nothing more.

 

I found it refreshing that I could have a Consular and not have to constantly use my Saber in combat, to be able just to use powers is pretty darned accurate to me.

 

This is in no way meant to be a flame of any sort Sidney, I just am intrigued by your dismay at this part of the game. I found it to be accurate, and quite good.

 

 

No flame taken and you raise a number of good points. I, for example, hated the way in something like BG2 that no matter how powerful I got the bad guys just kept getting as powerful. I mean at one point the city guards were like 18th level fighters. I worked hard to be special so why don't I feel that way. TSL definately makes you feel "special" because you can cut through swarms of baddies with little to no effort. You see how one Jedi could, for example, take down an entire military base or warship so I like that part. I also like that my lightsabres were bscially deflector devices to kept pesky blaster shots away rom myself. Also good.

 

That said, while combat is not the main point it is a huge aspect of TSL or almost any CRPG. You have to make combat fun. My gripe isn't that my powers work but that it became a real repetitive system. Every room was insanity, force storm, force storm, end of battle. If there was one foe, force crush. It was just the sense that I was no longer being challenged. The end of KoTRI, for example, let me hack/force power my way through swarms of baddies but I felt like I was in danger and there was some tension there whereas at the end of tSL there was absoltuely no threat to my life and hence no excitment

 

Finally, my fights with 2 of the Sith lords were jokes. I mean seriously, I didn't even blink against either of them. I'd like it they at least felt like a real fight since they are ostensibly my equals and frankly the final fight was way too easy once I figured out the "secret" to handling the second wave.

[Grishnakh]

I haven't played KOTOR2, I have to wait until February, so I can't compare the two games, but I get a little disturbed about some of the things I read about KOTOR2 at this forum, like the large amount of bugs and that many people don't like the story.

 

I find the first game to be close to perfectly balanced, you can become really powerful no matter what classes or alignment you choose and the game keeps being challenging until the end. Most enemies you can't kill just by using force storm two times, on the Star Forge you don't get far at all using that strategy.

 

I think it probably was a wrong decision to set the level cap in KOTOR2 to 50. I hear the only way of reaching it is to take advantage of a glitch, so in a way there is no level cap. In KOTOR1 you would eventually reach the highest level even if you didn't kill respawning enemies over and over or did all the sidequests. That is a great way to keep the gameplay balanced, because then you never become immensely more powerful than the enemies you face and the combat stays challenging.

 

I would welcome a higher level cap than 20 in KOTOR2 (it's awesome to be able to get more powers and feats for one character than in the first game) if you were able to reach that cap just by playing through the game and do quests and stuff. But since it's not so, it's not surprising that the later part of the game's too easy.

 

And Redhawke, you seem to be an expert on Knights and RPG's, but when you claim that challenging combat is strictly for FPS's, it doesn't seem like you know very much about other games. Every action game is more or less about challenging combat, and many are more challenging than most FPS's, just look at Ninja Gaiden, one of the hardest next gen-games available, or the GTA series.

 

And even though RPG combat isn't challenging in the same way as action-based combat, it can still be very challenging. You have to use strategy and make the right decisions and that isn't about luck, I'm playing through LOTR: The Third Age now and I find the combat every bit as challenging as in most action games.

[RedHawke]

Originally posted by Grishnakh

And Redhawke, you seem to be an expert on Knights and RPG's, but when you claim that challenging combat is strictly for FPS's, it doesn't seem like you know very much about other games.

I do know about the other types of games. I play many types of games. I just generally default to the FPS over an Action Game as an example for comparisons... as I have some expirience making/modding them... so I tend to favor them more... nothing more than that.

 

*Begin Old Man Voice* And I have been playing games both PnP RPG Games and Electronic/Computer Games since before you were born... I started down the Dark PnP RPG path back waaaay back in 1984, I had just turned 12... My family got an Atari PONG Console back in 1978, which I absconded with and it still works!

 

*Pained Moan* oh great... now I am starting to feel all old!

 

[Jolee] What were we talking about again? [/Jolee]

Originally posted by Grishnakh

Every action game is more or less about challenging combat, and many are more challenging than most FPS's, just look at Ninja Gaiden, one of the hardest next gen-games available, or the GTA series.

Ahh... Grishnakh your statement just made my point an "action game" is not an RPG, nor should it be. RPG's by default should be more about the story than raw reflex action... let me elaborate;

 

Action Games are like the fighting games (Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat) and arcade/side scrollers (Asteroids/Pac Man/Defender) of times past and present. This genre tests your reflexes to the max, and is generally all about reflexes. (Gauntlet and Sini-Star Baby... Yeah!)

 

FPS or First Person Shooters are like the originals that spawned the whole genre Wolfenstein and Doom, more recent additions QIII, UT, and SWBF. This genre also tests your reflexes but also your awareness of your surroundings, which is why a lot of militaries and police around the world use them as part of their training. Flight Simulators also fall into this catagory.

 

RTS or Real Time Strategy are like Total Annihilation, StarCraft, C&C, etc. These test your Creative Tactics and Strategy abilities. Basically a souped-up and really cool game of chess! Also most of the Sim lines of games fall into this catagory too.

 

RPG or Role Playing Games are like our beloved KOTOR, and it's predecessors the old Ultima and D&D games of the past. (I still have a soft spot for Pool of Radiance.) This genre is all about the plot, sometimes even figuring out the plot, and then building your character while advancing the plot along, it is the most cerebral of the gaming genres, because it is the closest to being a real, fantasy, or sci-fi environment that the game makers can give us. They challenge our Decision making and Strategy abilities.

 

RPG's by design aren't really about action in the least, take the old Ultima series back during the Commidore 64's heydays, combat could not even be considered "action" you approach a monster, initiate combat, and a lot of text and numbers on the bottom half of the screen doing the combat for you... Happily RPG's have retained this system for the most part, it is discuised very well in the KOTOR series, as well as some of the other new RPG style games... as this is part of the genre.

 

The Grand Theft Auto series is actually a hybrid game, a very nicely done one, I might add, that combines elements of RPG, FPS and Action Genres that should be in a class of its own, and I see it becoming one on the Horison.

Originally posted by Grishnakh

And even though RPG combat isn't challenging in the same way as action-based combat, it can still be very challenging. You have to use strategy and make the right decisions and that isn't about luck, I'm playing through LOTR: The Third Age now and I find the combat every bit as challenging as in most action games.

I agree for the most part, except in an RPG Luck does indeed help out... RPG combat has evolved to be more challenging than the old raw text on the screen... yes! But it still isn't any different behind the scenes... it just happily, feels more that way with the newer RPG engines in use. But RPG combat is not intended to challenge your reflexes, like a FPS or Action Game, though I will admit the adreniline rush you can get does feel the same weather you are taxing your Reflexes or your Strategic capabilities.

 

Hopefully this is where it will stay, but times do change...

 

@ Sidney, thanks for the reply.

 

And I do agree with you on several of the points you made, while repetitive Force Attacks should work on lesser opponents (Thugs/Sith Troopers/Etc.) the Force Using opponents (Dark Jedi) in TSL should have been harder to affect with Force Powers or their levels scaled with our level like the NPC's did in BG2, this would have helped their saves against our powers better, and better given the challenge you sought.

 

And Nihilus should have been a little more resistant against Force Powers. Especially since you get to attack him 3 on one, his stats should have reflected this.

 

Sion was kind of easy with Force Crush, so he should have been a little more resilient against Force Powers as well... but just a little.

 

But Krea was ok with me, she was a lot like Malak was, once you found out his "secret" he was fairly easy too!

 

[MasterKakashi]

Nothing can beat the first KOTOR. That game had everything,story,charahcters,gameplay,settings I loved it. KOTOR 2 was a good game too but I wanted to see people from the first one in kotor2 to tie up the 2 games more. I wanted to see bastilla more

[Zonzai]

Okay, I give up, I won't have my own opinion about how challenging a video game should be... So an RPG is all about plot and has nothing to do with gameplay. Okay then, by that standard TSL is still a let down. I love kotor and I like TSL but I think that some of you guys may be living in denial when it comes to TSL. Now, I'm bowing out of this conversation.

[90SK]

I respect your veiws, but I must remind you: just because someone has a opinion strongly against your own doesn't mean they are in denial about the subject (I can relate, I've felt that way many times).

[Kavar]

I'm about halfway through and I think it's fine. Although, I hope I am not dissapointed when I finish.

[McPurplesaber]

I bought this game for a couple of reasons:

1. To wield 2 lightsabers in order to rip things to shreds.

2. To use a ridiculously awesome amount of force powers to rip things to shreds.

 

This game has delivered on both. I'm addicted.