Canon

[nas77]

As you might already know LucasFilm, according to wikipedia.org, have stated that male / LS are the canonical versions of both K1 and K2. I know this shouldn't really affect how one plays these games, and is something that could be easily ignored, but I do feel it cheapens the games a little. Kotor was purposefully set 4000 years before the movies so that the devs would be free to provide a few stories from which players can choose which one they like - players can decide for themselves who Revan and the Exile are and what they do. When LucasFilm effectively 'clamped down' on this and said only the above was canon I can't help but think 'what's the point'? It's not going to change anything no matter how the Kotor story goes, it's too far removed from everything else. And even if they are going to say only one path is canonical, at least provide some variety rather than going for the boring 'they're both men and they're both goody-goody'.

 

Anyway, that's the end of my rant which I felt compelled to post. What is stated to be canonical can be ignored, but I think it was pointless for them to say both characters going down the dark path etc is 'wrong'. It cheapens the experience (only a little, but still...)

[Achilles]

All of your points are valid and agreeable.

 

With that said, I can also see how LucasFilm would consider LS male play cannon. As I'm sure most SW are aware, GW leaned heavily on the hero myth as presented by Joseph Campbell. The hero myth almost always revolves around a man's search for the father or father figure (never the mother) and tells the story of a simple person who over comes great hardship to bring "something" back for the good of his people (Frodo and The Ring, Prometheus and fire, etc). This is a central theme in almost every belief system that has ever existed. GW wrote SW with the hero myth as a template. To cannonize something that goes against it would be very inconsistent.

 

In the end, you're right, but I agree with LucasFilms on this one.

[McPurplesaber]

it is kind of lame that there have never been any powerful female jedi protagonists. I think if Qui Gon Jinn or, better yet, Dooku, had been female characters, the whole Star Wars story would be much deeper and profound. Imagine Obi Wan having a jedi "mother figure" cut down in front of him by Darth Maul? That would have been much more infuriating for an audience, and much more difficult for him to get over. And imagine if Dooku had been a Countess? She could have tried to seduce both Obi Wan and Anakin. That would have been a very interesting subplot ... the power of the dark side lying in the seductive beauty of a Sith witch.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by McPurplesaber

And imagine if Dooku had been a Countess? She could have tried to seduce both Obi Wan and Anakin. That would have been a very interesting subplot ... the power of the dark side lying in the seductive beauty of a Sith witch.

 

That's really interesting but before Ep.3 every Star Wars movie must be suitable for all ages.

You know...adding sex is a nono. It's unnatural.

 

*Thinks about trailer when Palpatine talks about the Dark Side leading to what some consider unnatural abilities*

 

*shrugs*

 

In all seriousness, it would be really fun to have a main female protagonist. In Star Wars, we have Leia who can kick some ass. In the PT, we have Padmé who can...well, kill things.

In the Clone Wars cartoon, we have Asajj Ventress. We have Mara Jade.

 

But this is all moot afterall since everyone of them are not main characters.

 

Nevertheless, since everything has to fit the Star Wars lore, I'll have to agree with Achilles.

[jblue789]

And imagine if Dooku had been a Countess? She could have tried to seduce both Obi Wan and Anakin. That would have been a very interesting subplot ... the power of the dark side lying in the seductive beauty of a Sith witch.

 

Yes, indeedy. A quite old and wrinkled beauty... like Kreia... >_< But I agree with the dad who agrees with Achilles.

[Derc]

The LS part is a given; the story is better that way. Good vs. Evil, as they say, with the good guys always winning.

 

The genders, however, can go either way. It would be interesting to have main female protagonists, but in the end it won't matter so long as the good guys triumph.

[RaV™]

I guess people don't see females taking the roles of an Evil Protagonist?

[Derc]

No, as that would somehow arouse fears of gender discrimination. You'd have to have a female protagonist to offset a female antagonist. Just my two cents.

[RaV™]

And I spose its the same with male protagonist and antagonist

[messle01]

what if it was reversed with a female jedi and a male sith

[lukeiamyourdad]

I don't know about that. Jedi Academy had a female antagonist and you could play a male.

I don't think it would matter that much.

[Prime]

Originally posted by nas77

As you might already know LucasFilm, according to wikipedia.org, have stated that male / LS are the canonical versions of both K1 and K2.

It is not just KOTOR 1 and 2. It is for every Star Wars game. And this is nothing new. It has been this way since back in the Jedi Knight days in '97.

 

Originally posted by nas77

When LucasFilm effectively 'clamped down' on this and said only the above was canon I can't help but think 'what's the point'? It's not going to change anything no matter how the Kotor story goes, it's too far removed from everything else. And even if they are going to say only one path is canonical, at least provide some variety rather than going for the boring 'they're both men and they're both goody-goody'.

But it isn't really far removed from everything else. There was lots of canon material from the Old Republic era long before KOTOR came along. The devs did have more freedom in that era, but they still had other sources to contend with.

 

Much of the content in these games ties into the comics and other sources. Exar Kun, the Sith War, the Great Hyperspace War, Nomi Sunrider, Master Thom, and so on were all around before KOTOR. Thus, these games also tie into the overall Star Wars timeline, and so need to have certain details decided on. Lucasarts have done this.

 

Not only do the games need to be consistent with earlier sources, but they need to be usable for potential future material. Considering how popular these games are, I expect that some day you will see novels and more games that will need to draw on them. The will need to have these details finalized so they can build on them.

 

You ask why should they make a certain path canon. I ask why they shouldn't.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I just hope that whoever develops KOTOR III does not take that into account and says that Revan and Exile need to be LS males. It would screw the two previous game a little too much.

[PhantomShark]

i think it's a very obvious distinction between modern and postmodern worldviews...

 

the old fatcats at LA would of course dictate that the protagonist of both stories would be LS males. that's the way it's done.

 

but i'm inclined to agree that, why can't they be whatever we want them to be?

 

there's enough that can be written for fiction without specifying whether either Revan or the Exile are either LS/DS or male/female. in fact i'd suggest that they didn't even have to be human. but in the fiction literature business, they can simply refer to both characters in the legendary sense that very few know for sure, and those who do aren't telling. it just requires a little imagination.

 

IMO the "canonical" methods are lacking in imagination...at least in the sense that it is restricted to one person's imagination rather than leavving it up to all of our imaginations.

[stingerhs]

^^^^

*reads the thread*

 

does it really matter if the game is cannon or not?? if kotor3 is a good game, then who's really going to care??

 

IMHO, i couldn't care less if the game gets Lucas' approval. what i care about is if the game is fun, engaging, and utilizes a good story that ties up everything left open from the first two games. anything else just isn't very important.

[PhantomShark]

Originally posted by stingerhs

^^^^

*reads the thread*

 

does it really matter if the game is cannon or not?? if kotor3 is a good game, then who's really going to care??

 

IMHO, i couldn't care less if the game gets Lucas' approval. what i care about is if the game is fun, engaging, and utilizes a good story that ties up everything left open from the first two games. anything else just isn't very important.

 

i agree, canon is not important. i just want to enjoy the game.

[Moonie]

There is, i would imagine, a star wars timeline. An actual timeline... with all the things that happen in the star wars universe written on it. in some places, it's already foobared - but that's going off on a tangent... basically... the guys at Lucasfilm have to write something on the timeline for reference. What kind of entry is:

 

xxxx years: Knights of the Old Republic (software, xbox & PC)

Male/Female "Exile" saves galaxy from sith threat/takes mantle of sith lord.

 

They have to write something real on there... more for future reference than anything else... They let you decide on Revan's nature in this one, and they probably will in the future, as far as possible.

 

Imagine even KotOR 4, where you spend an hour in subtle conversation telling the game what you did in the previous 3 games... somewhen, it's going to have to follow a canon.

[jblue789]

If there even IS a KOTOR IV, and for some reason, I think that it'll end at III. And even then, the workings of the first 3 may not even have been known to the entire world, and you only gain little bits of info and decide what had happened, slowly, but surely.

[abespam]

its important that LA comes out with canonical storyline for the KOTOR games because it is an integral part of the expanded universe (EU). You can be sure that there will more comics and probably novels that are set in the old republic era since its still largely an untapped resource and thus it is reqd to have some set info.. For example a novel set 100 years after kotor may still make references to the jedi civil war/revan and the exile and talking about them in an objective sense "revan defeated malak then left known space" "the exile defeated the sith" is really not good enough for novelisation material.

 

But when it comes to playing Kotor games you shouldnt really be worried about what is canon what is not .. the game should be simply enjoyed for its versatility rather than be berated for it..

 

most ppl play the game more than once neway with male/female and ls/ds.

 

Concernin kotorIII and any other sequels they will have to eventually set some set info on what happened in kotor1 and 2 otherwise there would be too large a no of possibilities of what the storyline ended up. ie Male/female revan who goes dark/light side..... followed by male/female exile who goes dark/light .. gives 16 possible starting storylines for kotorIII .. granted that male /female is not terribly important unless u actual see these characters or for romantic interest but force alignment will be deadly important for sequels.

 

mind u an easy way to set this is at the beginnin of kotorIII it should allow u to choose the face / gender of both revan and exile (provided there in the game)

 

Im hoping that there will be more than 3 kotor games... maybe it will become the final fantasy of star wars.. theres plenty of years in the old republic era still unused and u can always make a kotor game that is set at a different time to the others so they are not so dependent on each other (like FF)

 

finally A NEUTRAL female protagonist...

Mara Jade .. mysteries of the Sith

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by abespam

Im hoping that there will be more than 3 kotor games... maybe it will become the final fantasy of star wars.. theres plenty of years in the old republic era still unused and u can always make a kotor game that is set at a different time to the others so they are not so dependent on each other (like FF)

 

GOD NO!

 

I can sense franchise murdering a million miles away. Square might be able to pull it off but I don't think LA can. No way. If there's another Star Wars RPG serie, it better not have the KOTOR name in it.

[nas77]

^^ Thanks for the replies, everyone!

 

Of course Kotor doesn't have to played with the canonical versions in mind, and what LucasFilm said didn't bother me too much; it was more like a small nagging that I wanted to talk about, as I said in my post.

 

I guess settling upon a specific version would be important for subsequent materials, but a little variety would have been welcome. The story of Revan and the Exile could end up being very similar to Mysteries of the Sith; the male, Kyle (as to Revan) goes off somewhere and the female, Mara (as to the Exile) follows him. This doesn't break the mythological template because the main character remains male; in Kotor that is Revan and the Exile could just as well have been female.

 

But anyway it's not really a big deal in the end, just something I wanted to discuss. *Unless* of course the devs in Kotor 3 can't be bothered to cater for every combination of endings from K1 and K2 and instead settle on the canonical version for the premise of the game. Then I'd be pissed.

[Prime]

Originally posted by PhantomShark

but i'm inclined to agree that, why can't they be whatever we want them to be?

They can be whatever you want. But since you aren't Lucasarts, what you want isn't canon.

[PhantomShark]

Originally posted by Prime

They can be whatever you want. But since you aren't Lucasarts, what you want isn't canon.

 

my point is... F the canon... just in case that wasn't clear.

[montnoir]

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

That's really interesting but before Ep.3 every Star Wars movie must be suitable for all ages.

Off-topic, but: how do you figure Lucas is going to make Kill Bill in space (Ep 3) after, no less than, 5 kiddie-movies? (a slight exageration, of course, but I think you understand what I mean)

 

 

 

As for the canon question. As long as both dark-side and light-side and male and female roles of the protagonist are fully developed in game then I have no probs with the "official" version... as long as I am allowed to play MY game as I want.

[Moonie]

Originally posted by PhantomShark

my point is... F the canon... just in case that wasn't clear.

 

Sure F the canon... but you understand why there is a canon... don't you.

 

Your Revan and exile can be whoever you want, but if they're ever referred to in another media (different game, book, comic) they'll have been light side males.