Are Stormtroopers... (clones or enlisted?)

[El Sitherino]

Ever think that they could, oh I don't know, make another batch? And then another? so on and so forth?

[Shok_Tinoktin]

Not only could we guess that, we know it to be true. In the Kamino scene in AOTC we see clones of different ages. The next batch (or even several more batches) has already begun! Also, are you sure it is 3 times the rate? That would make the clones in AOTC 30, which seems kind of old for an army. Twice the rate seems more likely, and matches Lama Su's comment about raising a clone in 'half the time'. Not that its really important either way, 60 year old clones arent too great either.

[TK-8252]

It's not three times the rate, only doubled. But it makes little difference since they did start making other batches off of Kamino and not of Jango. This is confirmed in the RotS visual dictionary.

[Darth Obsidian]

Valid agruments, all, but you still have to work around the Carrida statement (plus all the other Imperial Academies)

[Jan Gaarni]

About the Stormtrooper Officers from the Visual Dictionary for the OT:

 

In non-combat situations, stormtrooper officers wear distinctive black tunics and caps. Their insignia - officers discs, rank plaques, and code cylinders - conform to the standards of the Imperial Navy. Code cylinders allow officers access to secure areas and computer systems. All stormtrooper officers are proven soldiers, and in combat they wear body armor like any other trooper. Officers in field units may wear colored shoulder pauldrons as high-visibility rank indicators.

[Kurgan]

Thanks guys. Well (that's a spoiler, but a very minor one), if this stuff is confirmed by the RotS official sources, then that's the official retcon.

 

C-Level canon (new stuff overriding the old, I assume in light of any ROTS revelations). We have a winner!

 

So multiple clone sources, not just from Kamino. The officers thing might still be retconned though, keep an eye out.

[Prime]

Canon Nazi!!

[TK-8252]

Some other interesting stuff from the visual dictionary and the incredible cross-sections...

 

It says about the Red Guards (become the Imperial Guards after the Empire is created) that...

 

 

Palpatine picked its members from non-clone military units.

 

 

So certain academy graduates might be given the opportunity to train as an Imperial Guard after proving themselves.

 

On the page about the new Republic starfighters, it says:

 

 

Amongst the most experienced ARC-170 squadrons is Squad Seven, a disciplined team of veteran aviators known for their unwavering courage. Squad Seven are clones of Jango Fett, the bounty hunter who was the genetic model for the first clone troops. However, an increasing number of units are formed from rigorously selected volunteers. Over the coming years, the most accomplished volunteer aces will be honored as stock for new clone lineages, and distinguised with all-black dress uniforms.

 

 

So you can also train at the academy to be a pilot. Then proven pilots would be selected to be cloned to produce more pilots. Nice.

[Jan Gaarni]

Don't worry, Kurgan, my quote has been out on the market for years already, so it's not really a spoiler.

 

Which is why I didn't put it in a spoiler window.

 

And newer sources shouldn't override older, only higher should be able to do that. Otherwise, the movies, which is the highest source, would be overrided left right and center.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni

Don't worry, Kurgan, my quote has been out on the market for years already, so it's not really a spoiler.

 

I'm fairly sure I was replying to TK's post above your's, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

Stuff that was written before ROTS was made isn't really a spoiler, it's just been the official explanation up till now. I'm saying just because that's the official explanation doesn't mean it can't change (and be overridden) by a new movie, since movies are the highest source, and George has in the past not held himself to EU sources on certain things, so it's wide open.

 

And newer sources shouldn't override older, only higher should be able to do that. Otherwise, the movies, which is the highest source, would be overrided left right and center.

 

Well then you get to the problem of what do you do when you have two equal footing sources that contradict each other? (Such as ANH and AOTC on the age of the Republic) The Holocron lays out ways to determine this, if nothing else, than an official committee decision and then pronouncement.

 

The "newer" thing applies to revisions of existing canon materials, such as the 2004 DVD's of the Classic Trilogy over the 1997 Special Editions or the home video versions from the 80's or the Theatrical versions. This may also apply to new editions of various tech books. Most of the other stuff isn't ever updated or "corrected" no matter what. You don't see them re-writing the Thrawn Trilogy because of stuff in it that's out of date. Instead they just hire somebody to write another book that explains away any problems.

 

It'll be much easier once ROTS is out on DVD (and Lucas doesn't decide to go changing his movies yet again!) and there won't be any new G-Level canon to screw things up in the EU. Then again, if the TV series is G-Level that could be a big deal.

[Jan Gaarni]

Well then you get to the problem of what do you do when you have two equal footing sources that contradict each other? (Such as ANH and AOTC on the age of the Republic) The Holocron lays out ways to determine this, if nothing else, than an official committee decision and then pronouncement.

Simple.

 

You wait on being sure about it till an official answer has been made, preferably a G-level source.

 

 

When it comes to the canon sources, it's difficult to determine what is the right answer. In the sitution you are thinking of it could very well be no conflict at all. The Republic could very well be around a 1000 years old. Each year, a new generation starts their training. (not my idea by the way, so don't shoot me for it. ). Of course, this would throw off everything that has been established in the EU up till the that point of time (1000 years before the movies).

 

Then again, what exactly did he mean by the 1000 years comment?

 

Even before that comment came out, we knew there was a war going on that left the Republic in quite a mess, but it held together in relative peace for the next 1000 years. Could this be what he (Palpatine) ment?

 

 

Until we get an answer on what this all means, then the history of the Republic still fits in at an alright and acceptable level in accordance to the canon.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni

Simple.

 

You wait on being sure about it till an official answer has been made, preferably a G-level source.

 

Which is what the Holocron is all about. The people who get to decide what the explanation is aren't the fans, in other words. That's all I'm saying. Some things really can't be resolved officially until that source comes out, I agree with you there. Until then it's just speculation.

 

 

When it comes to the canon sources, it's difficult to determine what is the right answer. In the sitution you are thinking of it could very well be no conflict at all. The Republic could very well be around a 1000 years old. Each year, a new generation starts their training. (not my idea by the way, so don't shoot me for it. ). Of course, this would throw off everything that has been established in the EU up till the that point of time (1000 years before the movies).

 

Right, we have an "Old Republic" 4,000 years before the movies, according to the KOTOR comics (and now KOTOR games too). We could speculate that these are old legends and myths that get the history wrong (like the legends about King Arthur). Perfectly reasonable, but a fan explanation. Another would be to move them forward in time so they didn't take place so long ago (say, only 900 years ago or something). I think the official retcon is that there was a "re-founding" of the Republic or something like that, and somehow different people count it differently. This too might be retconned, I don't know. Some people were saying this was a "slip of the tongue" by Palpatine showing that he was reckonning things in Sith time, rather than Republic time and dropped a big clue that he's an evil plotter. I don't know.

 

The Holocron would give the definitive answer. If they're waiting for Lucas to finish ROTS I can understand that...

 

Then again, what exactly did he mean by the 1000 years comment?

 

This Republic (as opposed to some other Republic), which has stood for 1,000 years (the government has lasted a millennia?), is about to be split in two (by the Sepratists action), and he's not going to allow that (by fighting to keep them from leaving or preventing others from leaving, like the American Civil War... fight to preserve the Union).

 

The "Generations of Jedi Students" explanation sounded plausible to me, but that's for Obi-Wan's comment ("for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic").

 

But then in ANH they also talk about the Clone WarS, plural. Of course there might be another war in addition to the one seen in AOTC ("Begun the Clone War (singular) has")... though ROTS only takes place 2 or 3 years later, there's still time, and these wars might rage on for another decade or so before ANH. See speculation about the Galactic Civil War simply being an extension of the Clone War.

 

 

Even before that comment came out, we knew there was a war going on that left the Republic in quite a mess, but it held together in relative peace for the next 1000 years. Could this be what he (Palpatine) ment?

 

If we take it that way, it sounds like the Republic fell, and then was re-established. But if that happened that would be a new date reckonning.

 

You wouldn't keep saying that the Old Republic lasted 25,000+ years, if it was demolished and refounded again and then start saying it's only lasted 1,000 years.

 

They could have easily fixed this by saying "The Second Republic" or something like that. For all we know the Republic has periodically fallen and been refounded after a major conflict hundreds, even thousands of times over the millennia. But it is odd how Obi-Wan would reckon it differently, unless he's some sagely historian who reckons time based on the Jedi Order rather than the Republic (which could be plausible).

 

But then why call everything "the Old Republic" if there were more than one?

 

Before AOTC everybody took the quote to mean there was one Republic, that lasted for 1,000+ generations of Jedi Knights. Now suddenly we have a thousand year old Republic.

 

It's like the Sith. They were around for over 5,000 years according to the KOTOR stories. Then the TPM novel says the Sith were founded only 2,000 years ago, and thought to be anhilated after a thousand year war. Again you could move the KOTOR stories up in time to resolve this, or as someone suggested, that the Sith Order was lost and refounded again by the Dark Jedi mentioned in the TPM novel.

 

Anyway, we have official retcons and attempts at fan explanations. The official retcons have canon standing going for them though, even if they might stink.

 

Until we get an answer on what this all means, then the history of the Republic still fits in at an alright and acceptable level in accordance to the canon.

 

Does this go without saying? We just assume it all fits together somehow until they actually fix it? Sure thing.

 

Sure, we fans don't get paid to worry about this sort of thing, let those guys at the Holocron do that. But what are we fans supposed to argue about in the meantime?

[scout_zero]

This is wierd.

The clones sound like Mexicans.

The stormtroopers sound like Americans.

But in Episode III, the clones look like stormtroopers and their assault ships looked like star destroyers.

Wierd.

[Kurgan]

It's a conspiracy! Really...

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by scout_zero

This is wierd.

The clones sound like Mexicans.

.... That is weird. I never heard a mexican that sounded like a mauri...

[Ranre]

From what Ive heard (And those people are very reliable sources)

Is that after the Clone Wars, the Empire wanted even more soldier so on top of the clones, they were getting enlisted men. All pilots are recruits, no clones there. Same with mechanics, and other special tasks.

 

Its also been said that some of the clones took on Special Operation tasks. So you would have the enlisted as the foot soldiers mixed with the clones, and some clones that werem Spec Ops.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by Ranre

From what Ive heard (And those people are very reliable sources)

Is that after the Clone Wars, the Empire wanted even more soldier so on top of the clones, they were getting enlisted men. All pilots are recruits, no clones there. Same with mechanics, and other special tasks.

 

Its also been said that some of the clones took on Special Operation tasks. So you would have the enlisted as the foot soldiers mixed with the clones, and some clones that werem Spec Ops.

 

Eh... where ever you got your information is a tad off. I've explained everything in my post.

[Ranre]

Ah I see now. Oh well it looks like I was just enforcing the truth in your post then..

[OmegaNothing]

Stormtroopers are a mixture of clones and recruits, thats what I heard anyway. The clones were those that were left after the clone war.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by OmegaNothing

Stormtroopers are a mixture of clones and recruits, thats what I heard anyway. The clones were those that were left after the clone war.

 

Man, why is it that no one reads threads anymore? I've already posted the real explanation, yet people are still coming in posting what they have heard.

[OmegaNothing]

Originally posted by TK-8252

Man, why is it that no one reads threads anymore? I've already posted the real explanation, yet people are still coming in posting what they have heard.

 

I was simply posting what I always thought, jeez man chill. Nowhere in my post did I claim mine to be the official explanation, I was just posting what I always thought.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by OmegaNothing

I was simply posting what I always thought, jeez man chill. Nowhere in my post did I claim mine to be the official explanation, I was just posting what I always thought.

 

But what you heard has already been proven wrong, so really, there's no point in posting it.

[OmegaNothing]

I posted my opinion, which is what we tend to do..

[El Sitherino]

But the question has been answered correctly. No more need for opinions.

[OmegaNothing]

That is ridiculous fair play, I simply posted my opinion on what I used to think the stormtroopers were and now there's bitching how I should never have posted.... Quit the hate people and relax. This is a message board, I didn't post a message offending anyone or a message worthy of all this hassle.