Magical thinkers opposed to Magical thinkers

[ET Warrior]

I think theres a problem when people spent thousands of dollars on a stormtrooper outfit to go see The Phantom Menace back in 1999.

Like lukiamyourdad said, a lot of people spend a lot MORE money on things that are just as unimportant. If you can afford it, why not spend your money on what you like? Is it a problem no matter what that people spend their money on superfluous things?

 

If I could afford it I may have done the same thing, but I instead had a friend make me my own jedi costume to wear to episode III. That doesn't make me obsessed, I haven't started killing people who don't like Star Wars, or stand on a soap-box telling everyone that Star Wars is the way. I don't go on TV telling people that they need Star Wars in their life.

 

See where this is going?

 

If a person Tithes, they will give 10% of their total income to the church. Anyone who makes over 10,000 a year gives more than 1,000 dollars to the church every year. Why is that not a problem?

[lukeskywalker1]

Ah yes, I remember your jedi costume

 

You shouldn't take advantage of Church Facilities. You attend the sermons, and show up in the free food lines (I was helping today from 8:30am-1:00pm give away free food) Why not help support the church. 10% isn't a huge ammount. Not to mention, its tax deductable, you get the money back from your taxes. What I plan to do this year is re-tithe the money and continue to support the church. I partake in the ministry, why not give back with my time/service and money?

 

There is a huge difference in paying $300,000 for a Ferrari, and donating money. Buying stuff for myself, or helping someone else... that is the difference.

 

I'm a worshipper of Zeus and am frankly offended by the existence of Christian monasteries in the game Age of Empires II.

The Olympian gods are the only one who exists and your's does not.

 

Your point being?

 

When I play Age of Mythology or when anyone plays it, nobody is actually worshipping Zeus or Râ. Tiny pixels do it and as far as I know, something that's not alive, something that doesn't even exist can't worship.

 

Im not really talking about RTS, im talking about games where you actually perform the actions, as part of a story. I mean, you actually give the order "Put the sacrifice on the alter" to the character you play as. I just don't play em. I avoid games with stuff that I don't like.

 

Tiny pixels do it and as far as I know, something that's not alive, something that doesn't even exist can't worship.

 

If I hire a hitman to kill someone I am condoning the killing, therefore I might as well kill the guy myself right? I just don't want to get my hands dirty. Its the same with this, by telling my collection of 0s and 1s to drop the "instance" named "insense" on the altar, I am condoning it, thefore... sort of worshiping nothing. I see what you mean. Note: havn't played AOM.

[SkinWalker]

And I think there is an even more serious problem when people change their religion to "Jediesm."

 

Magical thinking is magical thinking. It matters not what they think, it's still supernatural. I fail to see why it is more serious of a problem for people to change their religion.

 

You have to remember the Gospels (the part that talks about Jesus' life books entitled Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) were all written by different people (umm, four different people, Mathew wrote the book of Mathew, Luke wrote the book of Luke...

 

There's no evidence to support that claim (that the authors were the namesakes). There is, however, evidence to support the notion that they had different authors.

 

God himself pretty much told prophets in the Bible to speak his word, and forwarned them that they won't listen or believe them.

 

There's no evidence to support that claim. Indeed, when the bible is examined with a critical eye as literature, there is evidence to the contrary. But then this would lead to an entirely different thread topic.

 

Still, it's fascinating that the opposition to fantasy that presents magical thinking as fiction is comprised of magical thinkers that believe their magic to be real. Perhaps their magic is real, but until such time as the evidence presents itself, it is no more real than Harry Potter's Quidditch field.

[CapNColostomy]

Bravo at making another attempt at making the faithful look like twits, Skinwalker! I'm sure you'll say they do it themselves or something like that. Will you be using Sesame Street puppets for your next example?

 

Does it REALLY matter to you that much that kids be able to read Harry Potter in schools, or do you just have a hard on for bitching about religious people? Myself, I'd rather my kids didn't go to school and completely **** off with Harry Potter books. Just as I'd prefer they didn't read the latest issue of X-Men, or listen to their Ipod. I'd rather they studied your precious theory of evolution (which could probably be more easily explained to a child with an X-Men comic) or something worth knowing twenty years from now. You know, study something that might help them on down the road. Like...ummm...what schools are supposed to be for. Should we also allow kids to read The Gunslinger, or a Tom Clancey novel in school? Or perhaps romance novels? Well why not? It's reading, isn't it? Penthouse Letters is reading ffs.

 

Kids aren't learning anything these days with the **** we already give them to read. So now that they like reading horse **** like Harry Potter, we should say to hell with what the school says. If they like it, let them read it. I wish we had people like you around when I was in school. When I was a kid, I liked reading Marvel Comics, and smut magazines. And it was a real pain in the ass that they frowned on me reading those in my school.

 

The only reason you're opposed to this at all is because people have sited their religion as a reason as to why it shouldn't be in schools. Period. If someone said "I just don't want it there, because academically, it's ****ing worthless", you'd have to stfu and sit around finding something else religious people do to bitch about. And I'm sure it wouldn't take you long. And when I say religious people, I mean those "cooky Christians". Because if a Muslim said the same ****, and someone like you besieged them because of it, it would just be a matter of not being culturally sensitive, or fallout from 911 or some ****.

[swphreak]

The main point is: No one has the right to tell me I can't read a book because they don't like it.

 

When Potter first came out, there was a small uproar about it at my high school. I think it was pulled off the shelves at my school library for a short period of time, but no one cares anymore. Parents can police their own kids, and leave other kids alone.

 

After being persuaded to read the books (and see the movies), I really don't see what the big deal is. It's no different than Star Wars with the Force, Lord of the Rings, or even the bibles of different religions. They're all fiction.

[lukeiamyourdad]

There is a huge difference in paying $300,000 for a Ferrari, and donating money. Buying stuff for myself, or helping someone else... that is the difference.

 

Generosity is great and all but you have to be realistic. If you made 148 million $ last year, would you seriously give 147 970 000$ to charity and live with only 30 000$? Afterall, you don't need that much.

Personally, I have no problem with people earning that much money. They worked for it, they do what they like with it. You can't force people to give money to charity. Welcome to real life.

 

 

 

Im not really talking about RTS, im talking about games where you actually perform the actions, as part of a story. I mean, you actually give the order "Put the sacrifice on the alter" to the character you play as. I just don't play em. I avoid games with stuff that I don't like.

 

And everything was actually about AoM and the worshipping of ancient gods.

 

 

Note: havn't played AOM.

 

Obviously not.

[SkinWalker]

The only reason you're opposed to this at all is because people have sited their religion as a reason as to why it shouldn't be in schools. Period. If someone said "I just don't want it there, because academically, it's ****ing worthless", you'd have to stfu and sit around finding something else religious people do to bitch about.

 

I'd argue that Harry Potter has great academic value and, indeed, this is why I'm a proponent of encouraging kids to read it. "Nearly half (41 to 44 percent) of all adults in the lowest level on each literacy scale were living in poverty, compared with only 4 to 8 percent of those in the two highest proficiency levels (NCES, 1992)." It follows, then, that any instrument that encourages reading among school-age children to a degree that Harry Potter does, is a positive action to improve reading and comprehension.

 

Academically, Harry Potter has nearly the same value as any of the classics that are read in Literature classes with regard to improving comprehension.

 

I don't mind religious people as long as their religion doesn't affect my life or they don't assert claims that are bunk based upon their religion. When either of these things occur, I exercise the same rights to Free Speech that those that are religious do. I have no problem pointing out the bunk. It matters not to me whether you are Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, Hindi, or a worshiper of the Egyptian Sun God. If you assert that Ra spat forth the earth or that Marduk split the god Tiamat to create the heaven and the earth, I'll refute it, particularly if it's something you want to teach as fact in school (I don't mean *you* personally, but *you* in general).

 

The religious aren't the only opponents to Potter. The Times of India ran a story in which an academic criticized Harry Potter as having sexual innuendos intentionally placed within the book by J.K. Rowling. Cited was were several out-of-context passages such as, "'There was no need to stick the wand in that hard,' he (Dumbledore) said gruffly, clambering to his feet. 'It hurt.' (p 64)"

 

The article's author misattributed the quote above, by the way. It wasn't Dumbledore that said it. It was another character. But that along with other quotes were certainly not perceived by myself as having any sexual innuendo associated with them, moreover, I'd worry about the deviation of an individual that did perceive them, particularly in their original contexts.

 

The main point of the thread, however, is as I noted in the title: the irony that those who believe in magical forces readily accept the "magic" of even fictional sources if popularity rises to the level of Harry Potter. The same phenomenon has manifested itself in music and groups like Led Zeppelin are alleged to be "backmasked" with satanic messages and even the Fab Four were denounced by religious zealots as being tools of satan at one time.

 

That's not to imply that any who have posted in this thread accept the magic of Harry Potter as having any validity or source in reality, but many of the opponents *do* believe this. They see it in the same way as certain musical pieces were once (or still are) perceived: as instruments of evil. Indeed, many opponents of Potter openly state that magic and witchcraft are satanic and thus anti-christian. The fact is that Potter is every bit as fictional as Star Wars and neither is intended to portray anything more than fantasy. Fascinating stuff to an anthropologist like me.

 

I could easily apply the logic of the opponents to literary works like Harry Potter (there are many others that are similarly opposed) to works of Christian Fiction like the Left Behind series, claiming that these books should not be shelved in the libraries of our schools due to the magical thinking used in them etc. But, while I disagree with the message these books would like to send, I agree that they have the same academic value of Potter.

 

Should books like Potter or Left Behind be used in readings during literature classes? Personally, I'd rather they didn't. But I would certainly have no problem with making them available in schools or encouraging either to be read by interested students. I would even put either on a summer reading list. I would rather discuss literary classics for various reasons that are irrelevant.

 

Schools are for providing well-rounded educations. Reading and comprehension are as important as learning facts that'll be "useful 20 years from now," since one's ability to understand the written word and express his or herself effectively are valued attributes in the highest paying professions and perhaps even in the moderately paid ones.

 

Beyond that, the topic is worthy of discussion as evidenced by the attraction that this thread has had in just the past few days, CapNColostomy's hostility notwithstanding.

[CapNColostomy]

Well said. And I agree with much of what you said, believe it or not. Although I also don't really want my kids going to school to read Left Behind either...

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Bravo at making another attempt at making the faithful look like twits, Skinwalker!

What are you talking about, Reverend SkinWalker loves religion;).

 

Idolatry however is different- an idol doesn't have to exist to worship it, which means you are sinning by worshiping, even if its in a game.

Likewise, your argument about killing is sinning, even if it's in a game. You describe how the kill is just a script based on animations, collision meshes, triggers, and variables. But likewise, prayer in Age of Mythology is just models being animated in front of another object and the game detecting it and changing variables around.

 

It deals with whether or not you mean what you do, I believe. Actually worshipping a God is not the same as playing a game where you do it. I don't have the slightest feelings for Poseidon when I have my troops pray to him in Age of Mythology, hence I'm not sinning (not that I care, what with me being Christian and all).

 

[Allegedly Sexual passages:] 'There was no need to stick the wand in that hard,' he said gruffly, clambering to his feet. 'It hurt'.

 

'I dunno,' said Harry. 'Maybe it's better when you do it yourself, I didn't enjoy it much when Dumbledore took me along for the ride.' (p 355)

 

You will not object to getting a little wet?' 'No,' said Harry. 'Then take off your Invisibility Cloak... and let us take the plunge.' (p 556)

'

Hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!

:rofl::rofl:

 

That really made my day. Some people:D.

[ET Warrior]

Link

 

Harry potter is deffinately a sex-book.

[lukeskywalker1]

If anything I would say that X-men comic books are better literature than Harry Potter... you get your Evolution, Catholicism, literary skills, and cool powers all in one.

[riceplant]

Axis&Allies (Avalon Hill) is just one of the many hundreds or probably thousands of games where you can take the reins of the German facist empire and take over the countries Hitler conquered in the late thirties and fourties (and other countries, too, such as England, if you're really good).

I just noticed this, and feel the need to point out the role Christianity played in Hitler's plans. In particular, one of the pieces of Nazi anti-Jewish propoganda went along the lines of 'They crucified our Lord'. While Hitler was exploiting peoples religious beliefs (Who else is exploiting people's religion to stay in power, hmm?) to conquer Europe, the Vatican remained strangely silent. Interesting, when Hitler claimed to be 'chosen by God' (Who else, hmm?), and a Papal address would have thwarted this. I appear to have gone off topic, so won't go in depth into this example demonstrating that it is not just Islam that is exploited to further individual's personal goals.

[ShadowTemplar]

How do you justify the implied notion that Hitler, Dubya and bin Laden (intending no further comparison) were/are not religious? You say that they 'exploit' religion; I say they actually believe the crap they say... Which would incidentially make them as religious as they get, and not out to 'exploit' anything. What's more, there's ample justification for the views of the aformentioned three in the theology, doctrines, and traditions of both religion.

 

I wonder where they get these LEGO pieces. I sure as sure never saw those...

[riceplant]

True, that statement probably does imply that Hitler wasn't religious, when he probably was. However, he exploited the beliefs of others, regardless of whether he himself shared those beliefs. And doesn't Bush appear to be using religion to achieve his goals, too, now that I think about it.

[jokemaster]

I have to say one thing though, as with the whole videogame controversy, the arguement of those against games/harry potter, etc. is void simply because they have no experience w/ the subject matter.

[lukeskywalker1]

I have to say one thing though, as with the whole videogame controversy, the arguement of those against games/harry potter, etc. is void simply because they have no experience w/ the subject matter.

 

Well not always. Its true that usually that is the case. But I have read some people who actually try games like Halo and God of War, before passing the verdict that they are ultra violent and should be eradicated. The same with Harry Potter.

[jokemaster]

But you have to agree, most of the time it is the case.

[lukeskywalker1]

Yeah I know.

 

The irony is, those senators stop games like GTA because of Hot Coffee, then they go home and watch a porno and drink hot coffee. J/K

 

Its probably the name: Grand Theft Auto- it implys something bad, GTA is an illegal action. (havn't played the game... but whatever) Everyone should be awhere you can't judge games (especially games) by the name. Zelda for example--- Zelda is more or less in each game 20 mins max.. lol. You see swords and monsters on the back of the box. Yet when you play you soon realise its more of an adventure/puzzle type of game.

[jokemaster]

Or mario. You see this short fat guy, but he jumps pretty damn well

[riceplant]

Lukes1, you've said you don't like the books much, but I can't find you saying whether you agree with banning them or not. I'm curious about your opinion, because while you are clearly religious, you still appear to be able to think for yourself, which is quite rare in highly religious types.

[ShadowTemplar]

True, that statement probably does imply that Hitler wasn't religious, when he probably was. However, he exploited the beliefs of others, regardless of whether he himself shared those beliefs. And doesn't Bush appear to be using religion to achieve his goals, too, now that I think about it.

 

On some agendas, that is undoubtedly true. But on the agendas that matter, Holocaust, Jihad, homophobia (again intending no further compairison), there are some pretty strong precedents and validations in the Scriptures and traditions of the religions in question. Which would make the atrocities in question an integral part of the religion, rather than something pushed on it by outside forces of trickery and exploitation.

[Kurgan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Dr. Laura Schlessinger Jewish? (not a "Christian nutter")?

 

And yes, Jack Chick is off the deep end (and has been for decades). He actually had the gaul to claim recently that Origen wrote the Septuigint, as a way to introduce corruption into the Bible !!!

 

For those of you who don't know what that is, it's akin to claiming that Abraham Lincoln forged the Declaration of Independance and the US Constitution as a way to corrupt the nation.

 

I'm Catholic. I don't care about Harry Potter (to me it's like the pokemon craze or any other silly kids/parents fad, though not quite as obviously money-grubbing as pokemon). I don't see satanic influence in Harry Potter. Plenty of Christians enjoy fantasy like LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia. But to a few fundamentalists if you use the word "magic" you're automatically turning children over to satan. I was pointing out to someone that no wiccan or magician ANYWHERE believes the stuff in Harry Potter. It's not analogous to their belief system, anymore than Star Wars is analogous to any real life religion (even the recently made-up "Jediism" sect on the internet).

 

I don't believe in the magic of Harry Potter, it's made-up. It's fantasy, just like Lord of the Rings. And while people accuse Rowling of using "real life" terms from magic lore to make it seem more realistic, let's face it, that stuff is fantasy too. It doesn't work. And before you go "well yeah, all religion is fantasy" understand that I'm talking about the magic effects. You can say that waving your magic wand will make the rabbit appear, but if you wave the magic wand and the rabbit doesn't appear, doesn't that demonstrate that the magic doesn't work? Magic claims a set of causes and effects, that you could theoretically test. I've yet to see a wooden broom that lets you fly through the air like a bird.

 

There's lots more things to get upset about than Harry Potter. So talk to your kids, explain to them that they shouldn't sit on a broom and leap off the roof. Teach them that calling people labels (like "muggles") because they're differnet isn't nice. And then either enjoy the fantasy or don't. It's up to you.

[lukeskywalker1]

Plenty of Christians enjoy fantasy like LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia. But to a few fundamentalists if you use the word "magic" you're automatically turning children over to satan.

 

Well, LOTR talks about magic.

[riceplant]

Well, LOTR talks about magic.

Which is why the word they are reacting to is not 'magic' but 'witch'.

[toms]

Luke, you aren't being clear on whether you actually think that books like harry potter can corrupt people simply by mentioning witches and magic, or whether you are simply defending the institutions of religion that sometimes make that claim.

You avatar would imply the second... as the plot summary of Visions of Escaflowne goes something like:

 

Young Hitomi is a girl with some slightly unusual talents--she's a top member of the track team at her high school, and she's got a knack for Tarrot readings. But her relatively normal life is about to get very un-normal when one day she finds herself running from a dragon, and being saved by a young prince from the world of Gaia. Thus she finds herself thrust into a world at war between the powerful empire of Zaibach, with vast fleets of airships and floating castles at its command, and the many kingdoms who oppose the emperor's dark plans.

 

Which sounds uncannily like a plot summary from harry potter!. lets see:

Young Harry is a boy with some slightly unusual talents--he's got a knack for magic. But his relatively normal life is about to get very un-normal when one day he finds himself running from monsters, and being saved by a magical headmaster from the world of magic. Thus he finds himself thrust into a world at war between the powerful death eaters, with vast fleets of brooms at its command, and the many good wizards who oppose the evil voldemort's dark plans.

 

Ok, so i mangled the details a bit to fit them in, but the basic elements are very similar. And in the same way i wouldn't believe in dragons and floating islands when watching escaflowne, i wouldn't believe in dragons and flying brooms while reading harry potter.

 

Though, if you want to watch an Anime or Read a childrens book that actually DOES have some relation to christianity you should try Evangelion or His Dark Materials respectively... both of which are better than HP imho.