What might have been

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

I have come to the conclusion that all of the turmoil over "laming" and "admin abuse" and all of the arguments that happened are the result of

 

1. Raven creating in JK2 a Duel gametype that most duelers don't like and don't use
   
2. To solve that "problem" the modders in JK2, instead of fixing the Duel gametype that was the problem, instead simply removed the one-duel-at-a-time restriction in the Free For All gametype to produce what duelers wanted (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges). Unfortunately, it was in the FFA gametype instead of the Duel gametype.
   
3. This led to the mass migration of duelers from Duel servers where they were supposed to be to the FFA servers, causing all of the conflicts with the players who wanted to play traditional FFA\deathmatch, and we all know what happened after that
   

 

Raven repeated their mistake with the Duel gametype in JA, and the deterioration happened even faster in JA than in JK2 because the pattern was already established.

 

So my question to the modders out there is: what would it take to fix the Duel gametype in JK2 and JA to make it similar to modded "FFA Dueling" servers (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges)? Could it be done as a server-side mod or would it have to be client-server? Assuming things like incorrect ui strings describing the rules of the gametype didn't matter (since the "Rules: Defeat your enemies to score points!" FFA string is ignored anyway) what would it have taken to fix the problem with the Duel gametype the right way instead of the quick and easy way?

 

Not only that, how about adding that in the "new" Duel gametype only those engaged in a duel could ignite their lightsabers or use Force (if enabled)? Along with automatically disabling guns and explosives in the "new" Duel gametype, that would completely eliminate "laming" and the need for admin mods and admins.

 

Imagine if the JK2 modders had fixed the Duel gametype that way instead of messing with the FFA gametype the way they did. I believe there would be many more people still playing JK2 and JA. I just don't know how hard it would have been to do that.

[stubert]

mmk rgr

[ensiform]

I have come to the conclusion that all of the turmoil over "laming" and "admin abuse" and all of the arguments that happened are the result of

 

1. Raven creating in JK2 a Duel gametype that most duelers don't like and don't use
   
2. To solve that "problem" the modders in JK2, instead of fixing the Duel gametype that was the problem, instead simply removed the one-duel-at-a-time restriction in the Free For All gametype to produce what duelers wanted (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges). Unfortunately, it was in the FFA gametype instead of the Duel gametype.
   
3. This led to the mass migration of duelers from Duel servers where they were supposed to be to the FFA servers, causing all of the conflicts with the players who wanted to play traditional FFA\deathmatch, and we all know what happened after that
   

 

Raven repeated their mistake with the Duel gametype in JA, and the deterioration happened even faster in JA than in JK2 because the pattern was already established.

 

So my question to the modders out there is: what would it take to fix the Duel gametype in JK2 and JA to make it similar to modded "FFA Dueling" servers (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges)? Could it be done as a server-side mod or would it have to be client-server? Assuming things like incorrect ui strings describing the rules of the gametype didn't matter (since the "Rules: Defeat your enemies to score points!" FFA string is ignored anyway) what would it have taken to fix the problem with the Duel gametype the right way instead of the quick and easy way?

 

Not only that, how about adding that in the "new" Duel gametype only those engaged in a duel could ignite their lightsabers or use Force (if enabled)? Along with automatically disabling guns and explosives in the "new" Duel gametype, that would completely eliminate "laming" and the need for admin mods and admins.

 

Imagine if the JK2 modders had fixed the Duel gametype that way instead of messing with the FFA gametype the way they did. I believe there would be many more people still playing JK2 and JA. I just don't know how hard it would have been to do that.

 

changing the "Rules:" part would require client-side for sure. although, adding extra gametypes also would.

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

It wouldn't be adding extra gametypes, it would be replacing the code for the Duel gametype with the code for the FFA gametype + the changes to enable multiple simultaneous duels.

[ensiform]

mm well then that would be possible for someone maybe.

[TK-8252]

But Slider would have to code it in JA+, otherwise nothing will change. Convincing him to add such changes would not be easy...

[ensiform]

why would the spiteful newbie want to do that? im now hearing that he and #include especially are bashing rs and saying its a bad mod.

[slider]

why would the spiteful newbie want to do that? im now hearing that he and #include especially are bashing rs and saying its a bad mod.

 

i never said that ensiform and i don't think this is the mentality of Include to do it...

 

However the topics of your friends and even studbert on chopshop forum are full of bashing comments towards JA+....

 

i have always respected you...

But you not...

 

i hope you will release your error saying that...

It seems like i said that some people at chopShop forum are trying to wildespread bad and wrong rumors against me and JA+....

Moreover it seems that among those people , there are people from the coding team of RS.

I hope your behaviour will change because if not, you are really becoming to give a very bad opinion of yourself and by extension a very bad opinion of your mod to all people.

[slider]

But Slider would have to code it in JA+, otherwise nothing will change. Convincing him to add such changes would not be easy...

 

 

i hope you will release that this is exactly what i already coded in my Alternate Dimension feature...

IT enable to have 2 gametype in one which is FFA....

 

people first connect to the real ffa dimension and they can switch to the honor-RPG-MultiDuel dimension whenever they want

[TK-8252]

Can the server admin turn it on/off?

[slider]

yes it can be turned off but as Amidala often say, most people let the default configuration in the server.cfg...

 

now the other people that absolutly know what they are doing begins to see how this alternate dimension is powerfull almost for popular and populated server where all kind of player can have their own fun...

 

now if you fall on a server that is not allowing alternate dimension simply go in another because you now immedialtly that is not a only honor server...

SO if you are a ffa player, play in another server...

 

Before thigns where ambiguous, people join a ffa server and somtiles they begin to ffaing while they are on a honor server without knowing it...

Now when you can't switch to the alternate dimension, you directly know the intention of the main server owners who want to create a pure multiduel honor rpg server...

SO leave it..

 

you can easily know if the server is allowing the alternate dimension without going in the server by using the JA+ server tracker that remotly analyse the server

 

i will put in the next plugin a built in server list that also says it

[TK-8252]

Now, I haven't played JA MP since SWBF came out, but do people honestly make good use of the feature?

 

Are people hating it thinking it advocates "laming" or something, and refuse to update? Again, I don't know what's going on since I haven't touched JA MP in quite a while.

[slider]

yes some people don't update

 

so don't go on old server

there are enough last version server to have fun

forget the other...

 

i know that a lot of server that were refuseing to update finally updated because all the members were asking to in order to take adventage of the last feature...

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

i hope you will release that this is exactly what i already coded in my Alternate Dimension feature...

IT enable to have 2 gametype in one which is FFA....

 

people first connect to the real ffa dimension and they can switch to the honor-RPG-MultiDuel dimension whenever they want

 

slider, as you know, I understand the intention of the Alternate Dimension.

 

But if you read the post I started this thread with, I was talking about fixing the fundamental problem: most duelers don't like the basejk2 and basejka Duel gametype.

 

They don't like waiting to duel, they prefer to have multiple duels taking place. They want to be able to choose who they duel with. And they don't like being attacked ("lamed") while waiting to duel.

 

Fine, I can see their point of view. The problem is with the solution that the JK2 modders used: instead of fixing the Duel gametype, they removed the maximum-of-one-duel-at-a-time limit in the FFA gametype that Raven implemented for a reason. That moved dueling from the Duel gametype where it belongs to the FFA gametype where it immediately caused the confusion and conflicts that you know so well. Confusion meaning players going to a server classified as "Free For All" and finding only dueling was allowed, and "Free For All" was considered "laming". Conflict meaning players who want to play Free For All going to "FFA" servers and "laming" other players, and "honor" players who follow the "no laming" philosophy going to a "real FFA" server, being attacked as part of the normal game, and then whining and complaining about being "lamed".

 

Raven didn't change the Duel gametype in JA, most duelers still didn't like it, and the JA modders just repeated the JK2 approach: remove the limit on the number of duels in FFA, instead of fixing the Duel gametype.

 

Yes, the Alternate Dimension in JA+ 2.3 is an improvement over the previous version, but it still maintained the fundamentally flawed paradigm: turning "Free For All" servers into multiple Duel servers. The alternate dimension is an improvement of a flawed concept. And it still has to be used by the server operator (many disable it) and it still lacks guns, etc. if they are disabled on the server.

 

Let's go back in time and imagine a different scenario. JK2 comes out with the unpopular basejk2 Duel gametype. Instead of changing the FFA gametype, the modders radically changed the Duel gametype to make it like the current modded "FFA Dueling" servers, with multiple duels and duel challenges, and without changing the FFA gametype at all since there was nothing "wrong" with the FFA gametype that needed "fixing". Imagine too that the modders had made it that in the "new Duel" gametype only players who were in a duel could ignite their sabers or use Force, and that guns were disabled by default. That would have made "laming" impossible since the only person that a player could attack is the one they were dueling.

 

Imagine how different the world would have been: the duelers would have been happy on their Duel servers, they could have had multiple simultaneous duels, they could challenge others to a duel, and if they weren't dueling they couldn't attack anyone and no one could attack them. There would have been no "laming" and no need for "no laming" rules and the need to enforce them. They could chat or emote or RPG or duel or whatever on their "new Duel" servers, and no one would have cared or bothered them. And most importantly, instead of going to a Free For All server to duel, everyone would have gone to a *gasp* Duel server to duel! How logical and sensible.

 

Meanwhile, the Free For All servers would have been used for *gasp* Free For All! There would have been no confusion about what to do on a Free For All Server. People on FFA servers would have been happy in their little world, and the duelers would have been happy in their little world. Of course, if a dueler wanted to Free For All, they could have gone to a Free For All server and known what to expect. And if a FFA player wanted to duel, they would have gone to a Duel server knowing that there would be no guns and they couldn't fight unless they were challenged to a duel or someone else challenged them.

 

Everyone would have been happy. No laming. No admin abuse. No tiresome arguments over and over again in hundreds of threads about "laming" and admin abuse. Things would have been orderly and logical: if you want to duel, go to a "new Duel" server. If you want to deathmatch, go to a Free For All server. Simple.

 

And if that had been the successful model for JK2, it would have been copied and been just as successful in JA. We could have avoided so many arguments, animosity, and bad feelings.

 

Instead, the JK2 modders came up with the flawed solution of changing the FFA gametype to fix a problem with a different gametype (Duel), which caused a lot of confusion, conflict, abuse, and contributed to the decline of the game. And then that same flawed approach was used for Jedi Academy, with the same results.

[slider]

i really well understood what you frist said in the topics

 

what i said was not refering to what you said but what TK-8252 said...

 

other than that, i definely think the alternate dimension concept is really prodiding what you would want...

 

the duel and power duel gametype is definetly used by low slots server like 8 or 6....

this is more a challenge gametype where specator are studying the technics of the player beeing dueling....

 

i don't think this is good to make multiduel in those gametype...

 

Whereas since JK2 and even JK1 frow what i heard from JK1 players, FFA began to be used by the RPG community because we are not forced to follow the rules of capturing a flag, or completing an objective in siege, or defeating other team in team gametype...

 

that is why i think FFA is definetly the best gametype to alter in order to meet honour-RPG-multiduel and real ffa player community...

 

of course we could create another gametype like you said that allow only rpg-chat-multiduel at once...

 

but people prefer to be able to swtich between 2 gametypes whenever they want and without changing the gametype of the server..

the alternate dimension provide this feature ; 2 gametypes at the same time and on the same server and on the same level

[ensiform]

okay im sry about you slider but still read this:

 

Well I was in the newbie ja+ server last night and the guy who made the mod and runs the server was playing. And I started bitching at him about how bad his mod was. Examples, wookie model scaling and yoda, auto balance. There can be a 15 on 15 game going on and its really close and some ppl will get switched. And then it will be a stack like 20 drs vs 7 newbies and it doesnt switch anyone. He tried to back up its ****tyness with the old excuse "Ja+ is acually a ffa mod don't hurt me you ubber 1337 h4x0rs11!11LOl11!"

Anyway I started testing him but spamming. Since he was speachless after I told him all of the faults in his mod. I kept spamming 8===================D. But it didnt work, I only got silenced. And 84gt almosttt got kicked. Oh well, oh yea and I told him he sould switch to Red Slushie because its a far superior mod. And he started explaining how bad of a mod it is. So if ensi or stu see him post of in game you know you can bitch at him. Becuase hes talking smack about your mod.

 

later on he was asked if it was you or include and he said specifically it was include.

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

Again, I think the Alternate Dimension is a great idea, but it still isn't as good as correctly fixing the problem. Duel was\is the gametype that has the problem, not FFA. Rather than changing a gametype that doesn't have a problem (FFA), the gametype that is disliked by most of the players it was designed for (Duel) is the one that should have been changed.

 

It's like duelers were people living in a house with a leaky roof, and next door to them their neighbors (FFA) were in a house with a good roof. Instead of fixing the dueler's roof, the modders gave the duelers a key to the FFA house, and the duelers moved into the FFA house because that was the only option given to them. That solved the problem for the duelers, but it wasn't such a great solution for the people living in the FFA house. My analogy isn't perfect, but I hope you understand my point.

 

Sure, there are some smaller servers using the Duel gametype as designed, but while lightsaber dueling is popular in JK2 and JA, less than 15% of servers are Duel servers, and most of those are empty most of the time. Most duelers prefer multiple duels and challenges. The Duel gametype should have been improved to give them what they want, rather than changing a different gametype (FFA) with all of the conflicts and problems that caused.

 

The problems with making FFA servers into Duel servers, even with the alternate dimension, are:

 

• They are still listed in the server browser under Free For All, which doesn't really accurately describe what kind of server it is. A player who has played "Free For All" in Quake III, UT2004, Halo, Republic Commando, Far Cry, RTCW:ET, Call of Duty, Counter-Strike, SOF2, etc. etc. etc. is going to have certain expectations if they go to a JK2 or JA "FFA" server. Turning those servers into something else still creates the possibility of confusion, conflicts, and unpleasant suprises.
  
• Even if they have JA+ 2.3, many servers have disabled the alternate dimension or made the "honor" dimension the entering dimension.
  
• Even if a server is using JA+ 2.3, is using the alternate dimension, and has it as the entering dimension, if the server has guns and Force powers disabled, the alternate dimension also has guns and Force powers disabled. It is basically the same as the Primary Dimension, minus the grapple and some of the admin commands. That isn't what a player coming from the other games I listed above expects or wants.
  

 

Again, the alternate dimension is a great idea, and if it had come out in JK2 or even JA+ 1.1 instead of JA+ 2.3 things would have been better than they are now. But even better would have been if the JK2 modders had changed the Duel gametype into what most duelers and RPGers wanted, rather than changing the FFA gametype with all of the bad things that followed ("laming", admin abuse, countless arguments about "rights" and the "true nature of FFA", players being driven from the game).

 

And this is not a criticism of slider or even the JK2 modders (MarS, cHoSeN oNe, et al) who altered the FFA gametype. I don't think the JK2 modders could have predicted in their worst nightmares all of the bad things that happened when they changed the FFA gametype to give duelers what they wanted, instead of fixing the duel gametype.

 

My question is basically a theoretical and technical one, as I am not a coder: what would it have taken and how hard would it have been to transform the Duel gametype into what most duelers want, i.e. multiple duels, duel challenges, and perhaps auto-no laming?

[slider]

 

later on he was asked if it was you or include and he said specifically it was include.

ensiform, with all the wrong things i read in chopshop forum about me, i doubt that this thing about include is true...

 

Include is a very fair and mature personn and also he is a moderator here in this forum

[slider]

Even if a server is using JA+ 2.3, is using the alternate dimension, and has it as the entering dimension, if the server has guns and Force powers disabled, the alternate dimension also has guns and Force powers disabled. It is basically the same as the Primary Dimension, minus the grapple and some of the admin commands. That isn't what a player coming from the other games I listed above expects or wants.

 

hehe

do you read in my head amidala?

you just highlight one of my new improvement for the next version of JA+ whereas i spoke about that to only 1 or 2 person....

 

hehe happy to see that you see what i am doing

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

That's great slider, that would make the Alternate Dimension even better. If possible, it would be good if the Alternate Dimension had a separate setting for forceregentime as well as weapondisable and forcepowerdisable. And it would be great if the default values for the Alternate Dimension were

 

jp_altdim_weapondisable "0"

jp_altdim_forcepowerdisable "0"

jp_altdim_forceregentime "200" (or least no less than 100).

 

In fact, it would be great if you could restrict the values of jp_altdim_forceregentime or whatever you end up calling it to values between 20 and 200. A 10:1 range of adjustment should more than enough for anyone. The unfortunately common setting of g_forceregentime 0 has just led to a lot of gripkick spamming and saber special spamming. Many people complain that they are really annoyed by the spamming but they don't seem to realize it's the result of the extreme server setting (g_forceregentime 0, the most extreme setting possible).

 

But unfortunately, I predict many people will either disable the improved Alternate Dimension or disable the Force powers and guns anyway, and set forceregentime to 0 in the Alternate Dimension. Totally new players or new players from other games will contine to go to JK2 and JA "Free For All" servers expecting to find one thing, but finding something else entirely.

 

Also, as I suggested in my earlier post, it would be great if in the Primary Dimension only players engaged in a duel could ignite their lightsabers or use Force (if Force isn't disabled). If that was possible, and if there were no guns, then "laming" would be impossible. There would be no need to amsleep people and "explain the rules" to them. No one who wasn't in a duel could attack anyone else. They could chat or emote or "RP" or whatever without fear of being "lamed". They wouldn't have to use God chat or beg to be amprotected. They could move around freely and there would be little or no need for "admins" policing the server.

[ensiform]

ensiform, with all the wrong things i read in chopshop forum about me, i doubt that this thing about include is true...

 

Include is a very fair and mature personn and also he is a moderator here in this forum

 

who said anything about chop shop forums? also ive known him for quite some time i dont think he would just up and lie to me.

[slider]

ok ebsiform you force me to make a research through the chopshop forum with all the bashing comments toward me and JA+ made by your friends

 

all ja+ consits of is some script tweaking of the existing game without using anything new

it's not modding, it's script tweaking

 

Wow. I guess Slider is not liked much around here.

 

[quote name=Vico speaking of bashing topics he and his friends posted in my JA+ forum.

They were harassing my forum to spam bashing comments]

This forum is littered with links to topics that dont exist on his boards because they were deleted. You cannot say that he has never done it. Anything bashing him or JA+ is usually gone after a day or so.

so yes he just admited, that they were spaming bashing comments...

and they are your friend i beleive that support you?

woa what a nice team that almost pretend to be THE COMPETITIVE PART OF THE COMMUNITY!!!!! what a good image you are showing!!!!!!

 

 

someone tell me

1) how is this original

if it is not a bashing comment tell me what it is..

 

NEVER NOT THE EVIL JA+ MOD, DIE JA+, DIE!

 

 

So slider's actual contribution to the new moves: amkiss.

amidala you have read the readme, the move i used from OJP are not a lot compaired to what i made

 

No wonder this mod is for the 12 year olds

hum what a clever comment

Anyting better to say knight?

 

I think slider is right... we are all just geolus of his ctf server

 

nice

I think we should find a way to create a script to crash all the JA+ servers

Yeah good behaviour from the competive community!!!!

You are definetly some nice people that all player would have as a friend !!!!!

 

 

i will not post all the bashing and wrong statements and comments a lot of those chopshop members spamed in all my mod suggestions at pcgamemods, JK3files....

 

Ensiform, your mod seems to be supported by chopshop members...

Look and count the number of bashing comments i posted in your mod submitions just to promote another mod like mine???

you will found 0 comment

 

count the number of bashing comments toward your mod i posted in my own JA+ forum!!!

you will also find 0 comments

 

It seems that chopShop members are trying to start a mod war...

 

Ensiform do you want to find against me?

Me i don't want and i never showed through my comments that i were not respectuous toward you...

 

But perhaps you didn't chose correctly your friends?

I can assure that they will only lead your mod to mod war between you and me....

 

Shochop forum contains now too many immature members like stubert, vico, knight ...Etc... that like to bash me in all forums whenever they can and spam bashing comments toward me in my forum, my mod submition....

 

pathetic behaviour for player that prentend to be the elite and the competitive community

[ensiform]

yes well whatever thats not where i got my quote from but sure.

 

and so you know, they do it because they are fed up with your mod sometimes ie: the 12 year old admins who kick or abuse you for 'laming'.

 

now, enough is enough.

 

RS is not only supported by CS its supported by Refresh More.

 

who is editing that line out?

[Amidala from Chop Shop]

Aww slider, and we were getting along so well here

 

Originally Posted by amidala woa even amidal liked to harass me with bashing comments that are wrong

So slider's actual contribution to the new moves: amkiss.

 

amidala you have read the readme, the move i used from OJP are not a lot compaired to what i made

 

I made that post on February 13, 2005, almost six months ago, when JA+ 2.3 beta was first announced and when who did what with the new moves wasn't well-documented. And I notice that, probably in part because of my comments, when 2.3 final came out who coded the new moves and animations was well-documented. So if you are still upset about one comment I made six months ago based on the information I had at the time, then I apologize.

 

I don't want this to turn into an argument or a bash slider or JA+ thread. I thought we were doing pretty well up to this point.

[slider]

So if you are still upset about one comment I made six months ago based on the information I had at the time, then I apologize.

 

excuse accepted

 

as i said i didn't post all your bashing comments, but admit you spent for several month a lot of bashing comments toward JA+ in a lot of forums just to proove i am the evil....

 

i am happy that you are changing your mind about me...

But realize the energy you could have spend to provide nice things to the community instead of tracking all my mod submitions to bash me and saying also wrong statements sometimes about me....

 

i don't say you didn't provide nice things to the community....

i am just saying, that not spend time and energy to harass me would have saved you a good amount of time....

 

Moreover you appear to be the leader of the players that pretend to be the competitive comminity...

And you are not showing the good exemple....

 

the player now prentending to be the elite are full of bad and immature people....

 

And me also i don't want this topics to be turned into a war topics...

 

so i stop