DeSade Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 The Ravager is totally wrong. When you first board the ship the Mandalorian talking with Mandalore tells you that the ship is from Malachor and still "bears the wounds of Mandalorian guns" This tells me the ship must have been in the republic force because the Mandalorians would not fire upon their own vessel. My problem is this, the ship is of Sith/StarForge/Empire design that much is clear however that type of ship didn't start showing up till Revan found the StarForge and that was clearly after the Mandalorian wars because after the war Revan disappeared and thats when he went looking for the StarForge. The Ravager should have either been a Mandalorian Vessel, then it could have been anything cause apart from the a Bassilisk (which is also soo wrong but thats a rant for another thread) we do not know what Mandalorian designs were so that ship could have been made Mandalorian and the story would have worked. Or they should have made it look like a Republic cruiser like the Harbinger if they wanted it to stay a Republic ship. Apologies if this has been brought up before but I couldn't find it. Thoughts on this? Am I right, wrong, have I missed something that makes this ship design sensible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda Keon Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I think they did it because it looked cooler and they already had a republic cruiser commanded by a sith. Maybe he found that design while looking for the star forge but I'm just guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeSade Posted October 12, 2005 Author Share Posted October 12, 2005 I think they did it because it looked cooler and they already had a republic cruiser commanded by a sith. Maybe he found that design while looking for the star forge but I'm just guessing. But the StarForge wasn't even a thought till after the Mandalorian Wars and this ship was damaged in the final fight. I think your first answer is closer, for looks, still doesn't work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venom750 Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 maybe it was an old republic ship that was brought back into comission because the Republic needed ships in the final battle at malachor or somekind of Prototype.... but i'm reaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killwithhonor Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Well there really is no proof, i would say send an email to lucas arts but they would be no help and they would just send back an automated message, maybe they had taken over the ship from sith (the republic that is) and they used all the ships that they could, but again its only a theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90SK Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I always got the impression that Revan found the StarForge before Malachor (or was in the process of finding it near the battle). I mean, it's feasible that he found the used it to bolster his fleet for Malachor, but didn't create the sith fleet until after he "perused them" into uncharted space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda Keon Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 It could be technology from an unknown planet and they just copied it and used it but it's another guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinkle Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 the ravager is/was a republic vessel, not a star forge ship--take another look. star forge ships (like the leviathan) look like mouths, the ravager looks a lot more like a straight-up star destroyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90SK Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 They probably cost a boatload no pun intended >.> to manufacture, and thus the design is kept in reserve for times of war. That would make sense why we don't see more of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreenGoblin Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 I was really dissapointed with the Ravager exterior over-all, it is way TOO similiar to the later Star Destroyer designs, whereas as the Leviathan-type cruisers looks like a SD precursor as well as of alien origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleDog Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 This is another of my major gripes with TSL, the whole game looks a bit like its set twenty years before ANH. I mean what happened to the jedi robes? That aside to the ravager specifically Carth mentions in K1 when you get captured that he knows his way around the Leviathon. This suggests to me that at least one "Proto-Star Destroyer" was in the Republic Fleet. When they talk about unique ships they may just be reffering to the Sith Fighters. That aside the ship does look far too much like an ISD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vibro Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 But the StarForge wasn't even a thought till after the Mandalorian Wars and this ship was damaged in the final fight. How do you mean? The Star Forge was built a long time before the Mandalorian Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YertyL Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 This problem is in a way related to the different views on Revan in KOTOR and TSL ... The Revan of KOTOR started to go down the dark path during the Mandalorian wars, went to the Outer Rim after Malachor, discovered the Star Forge and came back with an Armada (see the Master Dorak dialogue). The Revan of TSL seems to have known/planned about anything, including his fall to the Dark Side. So I guess from the point of view of TSL, starforge intereference in pre-Malachor affairs is quite possible, while from the poit of view of KOTOR1, it is next to impossible.... Btw., swkotor.com also mentions the Leviathan having always been Saul Karath's flagship... plot hole I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackel Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Btw., swkotor.com also mentions the Leviathan having always been Saul Karath's flagship... plot hole I guess... Not nessecarily, most navies have several classes of ships and generally an admiral will go on a big mean looking destroyer with lots of guns rather then the smaller cruiser type ships which is what I consider the Harbringer to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90SK Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 I don't recall the Ravager really having much firepower too it; I always considered it more of a communications/transport ship for mass troops, fighters, and high ranking officers overlooking a battle. So if the Ravager and the Leviathan were in the same fleet at the same time, I suppose it would make sense that Saul would choose the latter. Assuming my theory is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreenGoblin Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 That aside the ship does look far too much like an ISD. And the shuttle that the Exile takes to the Telos surface looks exactly like the Imperial Shuttles, I mean almost exactly the same. Those two designs were just laziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90SK Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Not exactly. Besides, those were just short-range shuttles; like a Telosian SUV. You're right, though. The similarity is a bit to stark for a 4,000 year difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YertyL Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Not nessecarily, most navies have several classes of ships and generally an admiral will go on a big mean looking destroyer with lots of guns rather then the smaller cruiser type ships which is what I consider the Harbringer to be. I am not sure I understand you.... What I meant with plothole is that all other ships of the Sith armada look exactly (as far as I can tell) like the Leviathan, which would mean that this ship was constructed by the Star Forge (this is also supported by the Republic ships' totally different design), which contradicts it having been Karath's flagship during his Republican days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 What I meant with plothole is that all other ships of the Sith armada look exactly (as far as I can tell) like the Leviathan, which would mean that this ship was constructed by the Star Forge (this is also supported by the Republic ships' totally different design), which contradicts it having been Karath's flagship during his Republican days... The Sith Leviathan was not Saul Karath's ship during the Mandalorian wars, it can be deduced that though the ships might be named the same Saul got this new Leviathan before the destruction of Telos. This jives with what Carth implies... let me elaborate. The Leviathan was recognised by Carth as Saul's Flagship, simply because Revan and Malak had found the Star Forge and started building ships before Saul went to Carth to recruit him before the attack on Telos, he could have easily traveled to Telos in the Sith Leviathan because Saul was still a Republic Admiral... hence Carth would recognise the Leviathan as his old commanders ship because Carth had been on it before when Saul tried to get Carth to join him, before Saul was to level Telos. This is my take on it anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeSade Posted October 14, 2005 Author Share Posted October 14, 2005 I am more inclined to think that once Carth found out what Saul did he started hunting him, finding out everything about him and that includes his ship. That explains how Carth knew the ship because he had been studying it. My theory is supported by the dialogue in Kotor1 that states that when Revan returned it was at the head of a Sith Armada. I don't believe Telos was a "first-strike" so I think Saul came to Revan late, this is also supported by the fact that he had to prove himself, and he was given the Leviathan to carry out the attack and kept it as his flagship after the successful attack. As for the Ravager, I still haven't seen anything that explains its design and inclusion in the Republic Fleet at Malachor. How do you mean? The Star Forge was built a long time before the Mandalorian Wars. What I mean is the Star Forge hadn't been found at that point. I believe that after the Mandalorian war when he found Trayus and was perhaps lead to something else from there in the Unknown Regions then something led him to seek the Star Forge at that time. The Republic was still running this war, Revan might have been the supreme commander but it was Republic ships and soldiers, I think they would have noticed a whole lot of extra ships showing up out of nowhere and started asking questions. And now we can take the dialogue from Kotor2 into account. We can assume that the shear scale of Malachor meant there were hundreds of thousands of deaths, perhaps millions in that final battle, thats when Revan "cleaned house" after that point anyone that was left in the Republic battle fleet was 100% loyal to Revan, so then he was free to pursue the Star Forge and wage the Jedi Civil War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YertyL Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 The Sith Leviathan was not Saul Karath's ship during the Mandalorian wars, it can be deduced that though the ships might be named the same Saul got this new Leviathan before the destruction of Telos. This jives with what Carth implies... let me elaborate. The Leviathan was recognised by Carth as Saul's Flagship, simply because Revan and Malak had found the Star Forge and started building ships before Saul went to Carth to recruit him before the attack on Telos, he could have easily traveled to Telos in the Sith Leviathan because Saul was still a Republic Admiral... hence Carth would recognise the Leviathan as his old commanders ship because Carth had been on it before when Saul tried to get Carth to join him, before Saul was to level Telos. This is my take on it anyway! He transferred his allegiance to the Sith Lord Revan, taking with him a large number of troops and the Indictor flagship he commanded, the Leviathan. I think this leaves little space for interpretation... and you truly think that Karath could have just shown up with a Sith ship and still be recognized as a Republic Admiral?... and Carth states that he did not (want to) recognize that Saul wanted him to join the Sith... So Saul Karath shows up in a Sith cruiser and talks about how kewl the Sith are and Carth still doesn't get it? That's a bit far-fetched... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 I think this leaves little space for interpretation... Never heard of, or been to that site... so it leaves plenty of space for interpretation. Even if your quote from that site is accurate it still doesn't state that the galaxy at large knew of the existance of Revan's forces or what their ships looked like... hardly an effective argument to what I posted. Saul could claim alliegance to anyone, but he is still a Republic Admiral with all the rank and priveliges, until he does something against the Republic... Telos was Saul Karath's loyalty test. Only after Telos was Saul Karath a villan/Sith in the eyes of the Republic. and you truly think that Karath could have just shown up with a Sith ship and still be recognized as a Republic Admiral?... Who would have known it was a Sith ship? Ships are only really noticed if they are hostile, also note that in war new ships and technologies come out regularly, so new ships commanded by familiar faces wearing your uniform aren't questioned, especially by other military personell, like Carth. and Carth states that he did not (want to) recognize that Saul wanted him to join the Sith... Again with the assumptions that the Leviathan was recognised, or the Sith was even mentioned... Carth didn't find out until later that Saul was a traitor, that event was the destruction of Telos. So Saul Karath shows up in a Sith cruiser and talks about how kewl the Sith are and Carth still doesn't get it? Once again with the ship recognition assumptions, also Carth didn't join Saul for reasons other than this... he was tired of fighting. That's a bit far-fetched... Only to you... not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YertyL Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Never heard of, or been to that site... so it leaves plenty of space for interpretation. This link directs to http://www.lucasarts.com/products/swkotor/ ... it's pretty much the official game site... Even if your quote from that site is accurate it still doesn't state that the galaxy at large knew of the existance of Revan's forces or what their ships looked like... hardly an effective argument to what I posted. The Sith Leviathan was not Saul Karath's ship during the Mandalorian wars, it can be deduced that though the ships might be named the same Saul got this new Leviathan before the destruction of Telos. He transferred his allegiance to the Sith Lord Revan, taking with him a large number of troops and the Indictor flagship he commanded, the Leviathan. "Taking with him ... the Indictor flagship he commanded" does indeed indicate that it was his flagship in his Republican days. Saul could claim alliegance to anyone, but he is still a Republic Admiral with all the rank and priveliges, until he does something against the Republic... Telos was Saul Karath's loyalty test. Only after Telos was Saul Karath a villan/Sith in the eyes of the Republic. Do you really think that he could show up in a new ship and with a change in mind and no one would ask any questions and no one (at least not Carth) would suspect anything??? Who would have known it was a Sith ship? Ships are only really noticed if they are hostile, also note that in war new ships and technologies come out regularly, so new ships commanded by familiar faces wearing your uniform aren't questioned, especially by other military personell, like Carth. See above... so Saul would have just stated that he bought it with his private fortune from the Hutts? Again with the assumptions that the Leviathan was recognised, or the Sith was even mentioned... Carth didn't find out until later that Saul was a traitor, that event was the destruction of Telos.[/QUUOTE] Again with the assumption that the Leviathan was a different ship ... there is a reason why Carth did not suspect anything... Once again with the ship recognition assumptions, also Carth didn't join Saul for reasons other than this... he was tired of fighting. I think Carth demonstrates in the whole KOTOR game he is strictly loyal to the Republic .... also, he is not tired of hunting Saul down after the events of Telos. Do you truly believe Carth did not want to assist Saul in bombing his home world because he was "tired of fighting"?? I think you simply ignore that a) Saul Carath was not the dicator of his army who could do whatever he wanted without being questioned (at least by his superiors) b) Anyone who is not mentally handicapped would realize that someone who shows up in a new ship (which he must have gotten from somewhere)and supports the opposing faction (only by using propaganda rhetorics, but still does) is not exactly an integer admiral anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 This link directs to http://www.lucasarts.com/products/swkotor/ ... it's pretty much the official game site... So it still doesn't help your argument. Let me elaborate... "Taking with him ... the Indictor flagship he commanded" does indeed indicate that it was his flagship in his Republican days. Sorry, but your quote contradicts the game itself, so how is it valid? Endorsed site or no... The Sith Leviathan was of an "alien design" so how did Saul have it before Revan discovered the Star Forge? The simple answer is your site, or the game itself is incorrect, in this situation you must deferr to the game. Do you really think that he could show up in a new ship and with a change in mind and no one would ask any questions and no one (at least not Carth) would suspect anything??? Yes he could, Saul Karath was an Admiral, Carth was a rank and file soldier, and they do not question where Admirals get their equipment... and really an Admiral showing up with a new ship is not an uncommon event. Besides it doesn't change anything if Saul was to have shown up in the original Republic Leviathan to attempt to recruit Carth, either way Saul eventually got a different Star Forge built Sith ship and called it the Leviathan... and it was indeed different from the Republic one like I originally said. See above... so Saul would have just stated that he bought it with his private fortune from the Hutts? Why? Where do the Hutts come in, really? Admirals do not buy their equipment, so why even ask this out of place question? I strongly suggest you go and discover a little bit about how the worlds militaries work before trying to argue this type of thing, as your whole argument holds very little water. Again with the assumption that the Leviathan was a different ship ... there is a reason why Carth did not suspect anything... I never made an "assumption" you did. The Sith Leviathan as it was referred to was of the new Star Forge design, the Leviathan that Karath used in the war was a Republic ship, not one of alien design... it had to be, why? Because the game states so... the Sith ships are all of an unknown "alien design" and the Sith Leviathan looks the same... so, if as your vaunted and illogical site posts, the Leviathan was the same ship, this statement is really out of place. So I default to the game as a correct source, as it is the more Cannonical Authority. I think Carth demonstrates in the whole KOTOR game he is strictly loyal to the Republic .... also, he is not tired of hunting Saul down after the events of Telos. While Carth is very loyal to the Republic, he had just fought in the Mandalorian wars and was indeed "tired of the fighting"... he went into revenge mode only after the bombing of Telos, and his rage at Saul fuled this revenge desire even more, not before. Do you truly believe Carth did not want to assist Saul in bombing his home world because he was "tired of fighting"?? Saul never told Carth his intentions, he only attempted to recruit Carth... Had Saul reveled Telos as a target Carth would have likely killed Saul where he stood. But Carth does clearly state that he is "tired of fighting" after the Mandalorian war and returns home to Telos... then Saul Karath comes and attempts to recruit him... Later Carth states that he knew it was Saul Karath who gave the Sith the codes to bypass Telos' defenses... if Carth knew an attack was coming Telos would have been ready... I think you simply ignore that a) Saul Carath was not the dicator of his army who could do whatever he wanted without being questioned (at least by his superiors) Saul Karath was a full Admiral, and Admirals are rarely questioned about their daily actions. Or their operations during wartime, unless they fail that is. They are ususally only answerable when a superior is around, Admirals have very few superiors compared to the rest of the Officer corps. b) Anyone who is not mentally handicapped would realize that someone who shows up in a new ship (which he must have gotten from somewhere)and supports the opposing faction (only by using propaganda rhetorics, but still does) is not exactly an integer admiral anymore... Here you are assuming that the Sith had revealed themselves and they had not. Telos was a surprise attack and the point that the Sith revealed themselves. Taking this into account "anyone who is not mentally handicapped would realize" that a low Officer or Enlisted man questioning an Admiral on where he got his new ship, is not something that would happen. Republic Admiral Saul Karath arrived at Telos to try to recruit Carth Onasi, Carth turned him down, and an unspecified time later the Sith destroyed Telos... this means the Sith were not yet on the move and Saul was still a Republic Admiral when he talked to Carth. No one would question a new class of ship, as long as it has the right ID Signal and recognition codes the ship is a freindly, if not then it is hostile. That's how a spacebourne navy, as large as one the Republic would have to field, would have to operate, every new ship that was launched would not be known by everyone, so new ships aren't questioned just marvelled at when they are finally seen by the masses. Either way your argument, relying on what some website states, contrary to the more cannonical game, holds very little water. Sorry YertyL, but I just don't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YertyL Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 So it still doesn't help your argument. Let me elaborate... Sorry, but your quote contradicts the game itself, so how is it valid? Endorsed site or no... The Sith Leviathan was of an "alien design" so how did Saul have it before Revan discovered the Star Forge? The simple answer is your site, or the game itself is incorrect, in this situation you must deferr to the game. I did not wish to say that this version is completely logical, just that it, while still containing a plot hole, is more reasonable than yours... Yes he could, Saul Karath was an Admiral, Carth was a rank and file soldier, and they do not question where Admirals get their equipment... and really an Admiral showing up with a new ship is not an uncommon event. I did indeed not know about that... it is a common event that an admiral disappears for a few months and comes back with a new ship without being questioned...? Why? Where do the Hutts come in, really? Admirals do not buy their equipment, so why even ask this out of place question? I strongly suggest you go and discover a little bit about how the worlds militaries work before trying to argue this type of thing, as your whole argument holds very little water. I was being ironic... What I wanted to say is that he must have gotten his new ship somewhere... and he needed an explanation for his superiors (in case you do not assume that not a single soldier would dare and/or think about informing the superiors) The Sith Leviathan as it was referred to was of the new Star Forge design, the Leviathan that Karath used in the war was a Republic ship, not one of alien design... it had to be, why? Because the game states so... the Sith ships are all of an unknown "alien design" and the Sith Leviathan looks the same... so, if as your vaunted and illogical site posts, the Leviathan was the same ship, this statement is really out of place. see above... I am not saying the theory on the site does not contain a plot hole, I am just saying that it is in my eyes the intended one (see also the "Carth knows the ship" issue) While Carth is very loyal to the Republic, he had just fought in the Mandalorian wars and was indeed "tired of the fighting"... he went into revenge mode only after the bombing of Telos, and his rage at Saul fuled this revenge desire even more, not before. Saul never told Carth his intentions, he only attempted to recruit Carth... Had Saul reveled Telos as a target Carth would have likely killed Saul where he stood. So Carth thought that staying on the Republic side he would get away without fighting anymore once the Sith showed up? (which he must have known if he recognized Saul was trying to recruit him - in the game, Carth states he did not want to realize Saul was trying to recruit him for the Sith, which means they were known by this time) The Carth in KOTOR seemed like he would do about anything to save the Republic (including giving up the relationship with female Revan instead of joining her) - also, he still has a very active roll after he got his revenge.... And Carth states that "his wive and children were living on the planet ... his strike team arrived too late.." (NM35AACART04256_.wav ) - he was still a soldier. Saul Karath was a full Admiral, and Admirals are rarely questioned about their daily actions. Or their operations during wartime, unless they fail that is. They are ususally only answerable when a superior is around, Admirals have very few superiors compared to the rest of the Officer corps. See above - and even if they are not questioned in word, Carth stated he did not wish to realize Saul was trying to recruit him for the Sith. If he had shown up in a Sith cruizer (if Carth states he did not wish to realize Saul was trying to recruit him for the Sith he seems to have already known about them, and in this case their ships also cannot have been unrecognized) Here you are assuming that the Sith had revealed themselves and they had not. Telos was a surprise attack and the point that the Sith revealed themselves. see above... in NM35AACART04175_.wav Carth says that Saul told him "the Republic was on th losing side" - the Sith had already revealed themselves. Taking this into account "anyone who is not mentally handicapped would realize" that a low Officer or Enlisted man questioning an Admiral on where he got his new ship, is not something that would happen. see above - if Carth did not realize Saul was trying to recruit him for the Sith when showing up in a Sith ship (if the Sith had revealed themselves their ships were known too,) his in-game intellegence should maybe be changed from 14 to -6... No one would question a new class of ship, as long as it has the right ID Signal and recognition codes the ship is a freindly, if not then it is hostile. That's how a spacebourne navy, as large as one the Republic would have to field, would have to operate, every new ship that was launched would not be known by everyone, so new ships aren't questioned just marvelled at when they are finally seen by the masses. Again see above ... the Sith had revealed themselves and thereby most propably their ships already. While the swkotor.com version does indeed contain a plot hole, I cannot think of a more reasonable one... and I think that this version is also supported by the in-game "Carth knows the Leviathan" issue Phew, I didn't think this would become such an extended discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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