the Great Staff/Single Saber Debate (split from the JA+ thread)

[StaffSaberist]

...and make more lame gametypes for putrid honor saberists. Great Work!!

 

If I am wrong about the definition of "honor saberist" then forgive me, but I consider myself an honor saberist, if ONLY in the duel/power duels. I really have little choice, because of my weapon choice, but I never saber a chatting duelist on purpose. I don't use butterflies and katas unless I am surrounded, and I never grip-kick.

 

I don't do these things especially because of my weapon choice. Wielding the Saber Staff has gotten me more flak than anything else I've done in my life. Consider these:

 

"We don't allow the Staff"

"Only n00bs need the Staff"

"The Staff is a cheat get lost"

 

If I don't play as an honor saberist, I get kicked. Sometimes I'm dropped because of my screen name. So, I have to bind my own hands, and play handicapped, a moronic consequence of liking the Staff. So, be careful of calling us putrid: I personally have no choice, and I get satisfaction out of playing with honor... and winning! (If I can get a game...)

[ZeroX2]

If I am wrong about the definition of "honor saberist" then forgive me

The 'honorz' players that people refer to are usually those that complain about being 'lamed' in any gametype (even when they deserve to be killed, such as in the above example, where it keeps the game moving along) and often try to turn others to their silly ways. These players are particularly foolish in games such as CtF - I find it funny when 'chatting' players on the other team complain when I kill them for standing on my flag-spot. >_>

 

Wielding the Saber Staff has gotten me more flak than anything else I've done in my life. Consider these:

 

"We don't allow the Staff"

"Only n00bs need the Staff"

"The Staff is a cheat get lost"

 

If I don't play as an honor saberist, I get kicked.

You must simply play on terrible servers. I never get that sort of response when I use a Saber Staff (but then, I mainly play on the CtF servers, and those seem to contain better people in general).

 

I get satisfaction out of playing with honor... and winning!

That's great. =) It's a shame many people give the Saber Staff a bad name - it requires skill like all other weapons.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Just less of it...

 

OK, way, way less.

[ZeroX2]

Not really.

[Lathain Valtiel]

You're arguing.

 

Do not argue with me on this issue.

 

You will get dominated.

 

Consider it a warning: The only time staff and dual are not overpowered cheese weapons compared to single is when the single user yaw-cheats.

[StaffSaberist]

BZZT. Wrong-o! If you say that, then I say Blue Stance is a cheat, because Strong users must use a yaw-cheat to catch up with them. And it only takes less skill to wield a saber staff if you are a no good idiot who holds down the primary+alt fires all the time. You know, katas all the time. That's a B-S strategy. I use the kata when hemmed in on FFA, but never in a 1-on-1 duel, rarely in a 2-on-1 duel. Only in power duels when I am alone. If you don't use cheap moves like that, the Staff can be kinda slow. I hit some combo of Forward-Right and Backward-Left or something like that, and the staff spins fast in a horizontal swipe. NOT the twirl, mind you. That too is cheap...

 

The 'honorz' players that people refer to are usually those that complain about being 'lamed' in any gametype (even when they deserve to be killed, such as in the above example, where it keeps the game moving along) and often try to turn others to their silly ways. These players are particularly foolish in games such as CtF - I find it funny when 'chatting' players on the other team complain when I kill them for standing on my flag-spot. >_>

 

Ah, so there is a difference between Honor and honorz? I'll remember that. I play for honor, meaning no cheap moves, no chatting in a hallway and using chat god, etc. And if they stand on the flag spot the deserve to be fragged, IMO. That is worse than continual katas.

 

You're arguing.

Do not argue with me on this issue.

You will get dominated

 

Ha! I challenge thee! I will argue with you all you want! Just beware: I may be Lightside MOST of the time, but I show no mercy if I think I am right in an arguement.

[Lathain Valtiel]

*Smirks* Just read this thread in which only a total dumba$$ tried to argue with me:

 

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=125092

 

If I need to elaborate on something I will. As it stands that thing is old yet still valid.

 

Though I should add stuff about the superior Dual Double Lunge and staff yellow twitch.

 

As for blue vs. red, that isn't really much of an issue as blue has inferior range, inferior block and inferior guard penetration. Plus since you have red you have yellow and blue on hold and can switch dynamically.

 

Lastly, I never called staff a cheat, only that it's overpowered and cheesy. Which it is.

[ZeroX2]

Have you ever actually tried the Saber Staff?

 

You sound like you've argued this in the past, so I'll just go and quote your old posts.

 

Hey, even I will admit that there are such things as skilled staffers.

There we go. =)

 

My main problem with staff is that from a technical standpoint, it utterly eviscerates single in both speed and power/damage over time...

The Single Saber has range. Range (in the hands of a skilled player) beats the damage of the Saber Staff.

 

And the backflip escape that no other style has an equivalent to...

The backflip move is pretty useless - it's very difficult to actually hit somebody with it (as it is very easy to dodge), and if you're simply using it to evade, you'd be better off with a normal jump (so you're not locked in place).

 

And the gross Saber Offense imbalance in full force...

The Saber Staff doesn't have quite as much need for Saber Offense, true, but it is still certainly valuable. It does allow the saber to have a greater chance of breaking through an enemy block (don't get that mixed up with a saber lock, as many do - it does, of course, help with that too though).

 

Staff will tend to win vs single if they sit there and just abuse side slash sweeps if you do anything...

That's incredibly easy to beat - especially with the Single Saber (remember - range is your friend). On any good server a player slashing like that will be mowed down in seconds.

 

Single saber only for me. I prefer to have something called skill required than simply alternating left and right diagonals

Every saber has spammy/cheap moves (though out of them all, the Single Saber seems to have the most useful ones), and any player can use these. You say the Single Saber is the only one that requires skill, but have you really taken a look in depth at the other saber types? Many players, including myself, would go so far as to say that they require more skill to use properly. Perhaps it's because I played a lot of Jedi Outcast, but I find the Single Saber far easier to use than any other type.

 

I recall consistently killing you with yellow sideslash counter tactics

You said somewhere that you dislike the side-slashing windmill tactics of the Saber Staff, and yet you use the same tactics with the Single Saber?

 

The only real weapon yellow has against dual and staff...

Remember, the Single Saber comes with three styles that should be used as one.

 

Staff and dual are automatically unbalanced in FFA due to point spending issues and their relative power.

Covered above.

 

staff and dual DO have less options

Exactly. This makes them weaker. The element of surprise is a requirement when fighting skilled players. The Single Saber wins here, again.

 

You can switch to yellow, do it's sweep backstab, then switch on the second blade for nice damage via the second blade.

That doesn't really make much of a difference, actually.

 

I use both the Single Saber and the Saber Staff, and I perform significantly better when using the former. I believe it is easier to use.

 

That's all for now.

 

Edit: How dare people post things while I'm typing my message? =/

[StaffSaberist]

Read through some of it. I agree with you that you can spam the staff. Just as you can spam the single. Yes, he is a dumb@$$, but not for arguing. He was wrong, and wouldn't admit it. Yeah, you can butterfly all you want and spam it. Yes, you can use the wheel to attack. Did I not mention I fight with honor? I hate spammers like that, I'm on your side there. I merely don't think ALL saber staves are bad.

 

Are they overpowered? I never noticed. I can come out in the lead, but not more than a couple of kills in FFA, unless I am playing vs. Bots. Vs. Bots I come out 20 kills ahead. Vs. people, I can lead by 4 if I am extremely lucky, usually I am BEHIND in score. If the staff is overpowered, please enlighten me on how to take advantage of this.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Have you ever actually tried the Saber Staff?

 

You sound like you've argued this in the past, so I'll just go and quote your old posts.

 

 

There we go. =)

 

 

The Single Saber has range. Range (in the hands of a skilled player) beats the damage of the Saber Staff.

 

 

The backflip move is pretty useless - it's very difficult to actually hit somebody with it (as it is very easy to dodge), and if you're simply using it to evade, you'd be better off with a normal jump (so you're not locked in place).

 

 

The Saber Staff doesn't have quite as much need for Saber Offense, true, but it is still certainly valuable. It does allow the saber to have a greater chance of breaking through an enemy block (don't get that mixed up with a saber lock, as many do - it does, of course, help with that too though).

 

 

That's incredibly easy to beat - especially with the Single Saber (remember - range is your friend). On any good server a player slashing like that will be mowed down in seconds.

 

 

Every saber has spammy/cheap moves (though out of them all, the Single Saber seems to have the most useful ones), and any player can use these. You say the Single Saber is the only one that requires skill, but have you really taken a look in depth at the other saber types? Many players, including myself, would go so far as to say that they require more skill to use properly. Perhaps it's because I played a lot of Jedi Outcast, but I find the Single Saber far easier to use than any other type.

 

 

You said somewhere that you dislike the side-slashing windmill tactics of the Saber Staff, and yet you use the same tactics with the Single Saber?

 

 

Remember, the Single Saber comes with three styles that should be used as one.

 

 

Covered above.

 

 

Exactly. This makes them weaker. The element of surprise is a requirement when fighting skilled players. The Single Saber wins here, again.

 

 

That doesn't really make much of a difference, actually.

 

I use both the Single Saber and the Saber Staff, and I perform significantly better when using the former. I believe it is easier to use.

 

That's all for now.

 

Edit: How dare people post things while I'm typing my message? =/

 

On Range: The problem with this is that red, the style with the most range, is so painfully slow unless yawspeeded (i.e. you cheat) it is useless on anyone who turtles/only counters. Plus your moving speed is slowed allowing easy counters. Yellow, with #2 in range, fails to even consistently penetrate staff/dual's superior block and tends to go into knockback from it.

 

On Backflip: Very untrue. A backflip grants the staffer nearly invincible defense for almost no force use and no lagtime. It can be chained out of almost any move the staffer has, even butterfly. Plus, since it is a rising attack, if the singler gets hit it is so fast they do not block well and take massive head damage, usually to the tune of 60, 90 HP in worst-case scenario.

 

PLUS, it can be wiggled to make the staffer a defense god. If you thought it was decent before, wiggling it gives it more defense, more damage,a nd a higher chance of hitting.

 

On Saber Offense: This is so, but it is also so that said guard penetration is greater for a singler with equal levels in Offense.

 

On Normal Slash Spam Tactics: The problem is, the most consistent guard penetrating attack against such tactics is red style. Which is slow and is PROVEN to cause a significant delay in the user's movement. Thus, it is fairly easy for the staffer to evade red in contrast to the slowed down red user to evade staff. Increased block also comes into play.

 

On Spammy Specials: Which specials do single have that are not trounced by those on staff/dual? Lunge? Dual steals it and makes it better via the frontal invincibility granting Double Lunge. So what's left? Katas and DFAs. All of which root them to the spot and can be lunged or BFed past consistently unless the singler yaw-cheats (and even then Double Lunge still proves near infallable).

 

On Side Slashing: I'm angry at staff's version because yellow's has a chain limit while staff's does not, plus staff's has higher guard penetration, higher speed, and comparable damage.

 

Furthermore, there's the abominable yellow twitch. If you side swing with base yellow and switch to staff in the middle of a swing, you 'twitch' very rapidly, which allows a nearly flawless guard break vs. singles and somewhat less so vs. duals.

 

On Yellow Vs. Staff/Dual: This is so, but red has a critical weakness and thus I had to break down style uses seperately. Red is nonetheless the best against them overall, except for the speed weakness. Blue and Yellow simply fail to consistently guard break and Yellow leaves itself open for counters.

 

On Surprise: See Yellow vs. Staff/Dual. Blue and Yellow are simply nowhere near as effective against them as red, hence while you do have more options, most of them quite frankly suck butt.

 

On Sweep Backstab: It grants increased block, and more damage IS more damage.

[riceplant]

I can see that this discussion relates to multiplayer, which I have never really played much, but in SP at least, singles also have a backflip attack, although I think it requires jump level 3. By the way, what is yawspeeding, and why is it considered cheating? If it's just turning during a move, then that's hardly cheating. Also, I agree the staff is definitely overpowered versus bots, but they are totally different from human players anyway (few actual humans have the reflexes to defend against a grip/push combo).

[StaffSaberist]

Yawspeed is editing some .cfg file to allow you to spin faster. It is a hack, and those caught using it are perma-banned and IP blocked.

[Lathain Valtiel]

When I say yaw-speeding, I mean turning the mouse sensitivity so high that exploits are possible. Exploits include spinning like a top after a red side slash, granting godlike speed, block, and possible sick multihit damage to the attack, wiggling the mouse at the end of a red side slash to produce a temporarily still blade that has awesome block and enemy block penetration plus damage... And so on.

 

Exploits of that kind for staff and dual include the near instant-kill and near-unblockable (bar dual backstab) spun butterfly, the near-invincible wiggled backflip, and the single lung-defeating spun Dual Saber Barrier.

[ZeroX2]

On Backflip: ... massive head damage, usually to the tune of 60, 90 HP in worst-case scenario.

The damage it causes is irrelevant - it is easy to dodge if you know what you're doing.

 

On Normal Slash Spam Tactics: The problem is, the most consistent guard penetrating attack against such tactics is red style. Which is slow and is PROVEN to cause a significant delay in the user's movement.

Proven? It doesn't need to be proven - you can simply see the difference. >_>

 

So what's left? Katas and DFAs. All of which root them to the spot

Is that always a bad thing? Katas are pretty useless mostly, as they can be easily dodged. Therefore, the time to use them would be when you know it will hit, or can surprise an enemy with them - for example, performing a kata at the top of a lift, hitting an unsuspecting player. Here, being rooted to the spot would allow you to cover the whole area and annihilate the enemy. Certainly, in open areas, being rooted to the spot is suicide. But this doesn't apply everywhere.

 

Blue and Yellow are simply nowhere near as effective against them as red

That depends on the two players - I often see Yellow and Blue styles used to defeat Dual/Double Sabers. Easily.

[Lathain Valtiel]

The damage it causes is irrelevant - it is easy to dodge if you know what you're doing.

 

 

Proven? It doesn't need to be proven - you can simply see the difference. >_>

 

 

Is that always a bad thing? Katas are pretty useless mostly, as they can be easily dodged. Therefore, the time to use them would be when you know it will hit, or can surprise an enemy with them - for example, performing a kata at the top of a lift, hitting an unsuspecting player. Here, being rooted to the spot would allow you to cover the whole area and annihilate the enemy. Certainly, in open areas, being rooted to the spot is suicide. But this doesn't apply everywhere.

 

 

That depends on the two players - I often see Yellow and Blue styles used to defeat Dual/Double Sabers. Easily.

 

Back/Sideflip Continued: I was speaking in the context of dueling, in which damage isn't irrelevant... But the point is that it can be suddenly chained out of almost anything. If you get a block off a staff strike, semi-rare as that is, and move in for the kill, you stand a chance of being decked by a sudden flip (I apologize, I was including side flip in the backflip thing. Points mostly stand in backflip's case except for damage, it's still an excellent defense.).

 

On Katas/DFAs: While this is so, you can also jump over most of them or lunge past. They ARE however useful if the enemy is stupid enough to jump a LITTLE too close to your front too often. Shame that most JKAers ARE that stupid.

 

On Blue and Yellow: Yeah, you do. And I'm one of the people who does it. Pity usually the staffers suck outrageously and the singlers are good if said staffers lose to them consistently. That hardly damages the point.

[StaffSaberist]

You know, I am no n00b with the staff, and I just got my arse kicked on JA+. By SINGLE SABER wielders. If anything, the staff is at a disadvantage, because the range isn't so good.

[thehomicidalegg]

i think staff/dual is easier to spam but hard to master versing good single users, HOWEVER when one master it, its extremely difficult to beat using single without poke/wiggle... especially if they just sit back and counter

[StaffSaberist]

Apparently, I haven't mastered it yet. I have a lot of rust to clean. I didn't know sabers could have rust...

[ZeroX2]

By SINGLE SABER wielders. If anything, the staff is at a disadvantage, because the range isn't so good.

hard to master versing good single users

Exactly. The Saber Staff and Dual Sabers are naturally chaotic weapons (i.e. at first, the sabers seem to flail about randomly), and therefore they require a great deal of skill/time to use properly/accurately. The Single Saber, on the other hand, isn't chaotic. It swings exactly where you want, accurately, and at varying ranges/speeds, which you can set as you wish. It has the best accuracy and range of any saber type, while the Saber Staff and Dual Sabers require time and effort to be used well. I find the Single Saber to be an incredibly easy weapon to use.

[razorace]

The Staff and Dual sabers are unbalanced compared to the single sabers. Standard swings from Staffs/Duals do about the same amount of damage the Yellow Stance AND they have double the possible surface area in terms of blades. That's not even counting the special moves or the issue of the staff/dual animations going much faster than their single saber counterparts.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Actually, they do more damage than yellow over time on average due to marginally greater speed, greater chain capability, AND their tendency fdor their strikes to go higher than single. Words cannot describe how often I've been headshotted/instakilled by a staff diagonal that somehow went right past the red style swing coming at it.

 

The range deficiency the staff/duals have is laughable since they don't slow down the user like red style, the greatest saber in terms of range does. Thus, the staff or dualler can move back a bit, watch the legit red user miss, then go for the fast diagonal for an easy hit due to the slowdown.

 

The chaos of dual/staff works for their advantage, as you can pretty much let it do its thing and it'll let you win most of the time. Hell, most people who play me can vouch for my power over single, yet I can lose to diagonal staff charge tactics in an FFA, which even Only One Cannoli admits is rather cheap. It takes an inordinate amount of skill for a single saber user to overcome the inherent superiority of staff/dual, and quite frankly at this point it is inarguable.

 

Egg is also right. Staff/dual turtle tactics are almost impossible for single users to legitimately beat without resorting to cheating/exploits like poke or yawspin. I once got so angry with it that I counter-turtled an annoying, obviously skill-less counter-only staffer with yellow. The fight lasted like five minutes but I won with 10 HP left. **** like that should not have to happen.

[ZeroX2]

The range deficiency the staff/duals have is laughable since they don't slow down the user like red style, the greatest saber in terms of range does. Thus, the staff or dualler can move back a bit, watch the legit red user miss, then go for the fast diagonal for an easy hit due to the slowdown.

A jump seems to work well enough.

 

The chaos of dual/staff works for their advantage, as you can pretty much let it do its thing and it'll let you win most of the time.

Not against a player that knows what he/she is doing.

 

It takes an inordinate amount of skill for a single saber user to overcome the inherent superiority of staff/dual, and quite frankly at this point it is inarguable.

I seem to manage fine.

[StaffSaberist]

LV, you appear miffed at the staff because you lost to one. There is a simple solution: Get better! I have to get better. If so powerful, the staff is, why do I lose with it? Hmm? I am no n00b, but I can lose. (Or maybe because in JA+ my Force Powers were unbound for some reason.) I am more suited to a NF duel, I suppose, b/c in that FFA game I was pwned in, the killers just used Grip all the time. Just about as cheap as the Staff, IMO. Using only Grip and Saber Throw is a cheap way to win. Not to mention, I bowed to my opponent in FFA and he was not so inclined. Last time I do that.

 

Oh, yeah, another point. If the lightsaber you face is too good for you, you do know you can usually use Force Powers, or switch to another lightsaber? If you choose Single, that's fine. I chose the Staff, for no other reason than it is my preference. I use it so I am balanced with the other gamers. Esp. this: I do none of the following:

 

• I do not use Backstab more than once in a row.
  
• I do not use the kata unless it is three-on-one or worse.
  
• I do not use twirl at all, it's a stupid move.
  
• I do not sneak up on someone in an FFA game.
  
• I bow before a duel match.
  
• If I use kick (yes, I do) then I wait for him to get up, or take that time to use Heal.
  
• If my opponent has lost his saber, I wait for him to pick it up.
  
• I have preset "say" commands congratulating my opponent, or berating myself if I do something n00bish (like falling off a cliff)
  

 

Yes, accidents do happen, like if we are playing base MP and he starts chatting, if I am in the middle of a swing, I may hit him. I do apologize.

 

The lightsaber is a weapon of honor in combat, and it galls me that there are some who abuse it. You are right there. But I am not one of those people. The saber staff really has identical range to the single. Here is why:

 

The staff usually attacks in a way that one blade attacks, and the other flails in midair. So, if there are two attackers, one in front and one off to the side, the staff may kill both at once. But so can your Red Stance. Even Yellow has a crack at killing one and wounding the other. Blue... you are usually moving around so fast it doesn't matter.

 

Dual sabers are better than the staff, IMO, because you are capable of attacking with one saber and throwing the other. You need 133t skills to pull that off, but it can be done. If you do, you can kill two at once. Just like the Staff. And like Red Stance.

[ZeroX2]

[*]I do not use twirl at all, it's a stupid move.

Heh, I often use the twirl accidentally - I'm used to the JO rolling system. >_>

 

[*]If I use kick (yes, I do) then I wait for him to get up, or take that time to use Heal.

I find kick to be great in the right situations. It's especially fun when you're using Mind Trick - it doesn't affect your invisibility, so you can repeatedly kick somebody in the face.

 

Dual sabers are better than the staff, IMO

I find Dual Sabers to be the most difficult saber type to use (having to aim the two seperate blades at once), but yeah, they can be great when you master them.

[StaffSaberist]

Wielding two sabers would be hard if you actually had to wield them, but the only time I've seen something out of the ordinary with them is when I somehow threw both sabers (no mods like that that I'm aware of)