Views on Jedi

[SilentScope001]

Well, sure, you are pretty much screwed if you see a sith coming. But at least you know they don't care much about YOUR ACTIONS if they get what THEY NEED, and if they kill you for fun its just... for fun. If they trash your trade empire it is because it suits THEIR NEEDS. But the Jedis would trash your party because IT IS AGAINST THEIR WHIM.

 

1) Who's say it's THEIR whim? Could be the whim of The Force. And who is to say their whim is not right?

 

2) Well, Pouiy, isn't that the exact same thing that most Gray Jedi do too? Enforce their moral code on everyone else? (Jolee could be an excepiton, as all HE does is, well, nothing. Apathy is death, according to Kreia.) So, I don't underestand why should a Gray Jedi be preferred to the Jedi, since the Jedi has far more experience. True, that wasn't part of your arugment, it was some rambling.

 

3) You complain about the Jedi usually doing nothing. (It is actually not known how long they medidated, they just was in a council and they made a desicion. In fact, from what I seen in TSL, all it took was 25 seconds for the Exile to be, um, exiled. Only 60 seconds of discussion afterwards, and the subject was dropped.) Besides, do you really want to implusively act and make the wrong mistake? A reasonable amount of time complenanting results is necessary.

[Darth Avlectus]

Allronix, I see your point. I must respond in kind that while I agree that some with questionable morals cannot govern themselves, I disagree with socialism because as it gets more powerful, there is nobody to keep it in check--beauracracy thickens so much that the people it serves no longer have really much of a say-so. So I will agree to disagree that the answer is necessarily socialism.

 

I am not SURE who was justifying arrogance back there, BUT:

 

There is no shame in telling the truth, telling the truth like it is. THAT is not arrogant. May not make friends, may even make enemies. However, that is a lesser fault than being a complete jackass.

 

I won't even go into hyperbolizing on truth, but when you taunt and jibe you paint a vivid target reticle on yourself. You may be able to subjugate others who are less gifted and get away with it, you may even intimidate your rivals. However, if you don't get ganged up on, someone is gonna get'cha. And that may not be a glorious defeat either--you may very well get off'd "like some sucker".

Be it someone you pushed that far and blew right through you,

or someone who simply doesn't give into your sentiment simply because they are concentrating and training harder and smarter --instead of insulting and blowing up a smokescreen.

An example was a fencer. I've taken kendo, and fencing. While this big fat bad@$$ who moves boulders and does landscaping for a living is a killer fencer in his spare time (BTW--dooku's style was some fancy pants sword style that incorporated fencing moves but it WAS NOT fencing), he was also a very contemptuous type... In a normal fencing competition, ok he beat me fair and square because he was that damn good. He began insulting everything else he knew that I knew that wasn't fencing... taunts taunts taunts. Ok, got another beating even harder as a kendoist. Called me a stupid americanized mutt. However, I challenged him to a free-for-all. He began the incesant insults and mocking. I stared a hole through him because it did not affect me. I was angry too, but I focused it sharply and tightly. I asked him if he was scared. He began puffing up his chest and getting all pissed off and trying to intimidate me--while still fronting the jibes and mockery. We stood eye to eye. He had to be at least 250lbs. I'm a good bit more than half that.

The following happened in about 3 seconds:

He tried to shove me--his hands met nothing. However, he was surprised when I was not there--I was to his right. He turned as towards me, and suddenly his right hand and wrist were being wrenced and his lower arm being painfully twisted clockwise (from his POV) and brought inward towards his clavacle. His right knee gave out from some mysterious light tap from behind. For good measure once my pull and grip from behind on the wrenching was good enough to leave in my right hand, I used my left arm to parry his head in the opposite direction and keep it there. Now he was at my mercy:

I made sure I wasn't breaking anything of his or spraigning his joint, but he had to KNOW I meant business... he also had to know that his unsportsman like behaviour "was not chivalrous" nor "acceptable for the SCA" (society for creative anachorism). After 30 seconds he was begging me to let go-I forced an appology out of him first, Then let off and offered to fix the damage done. He told me to go ........ myself. I watched and a N00b he was facing anihlated him. I offered once more, he refused once more. He lost once more to an elder member. Soon he asked if I would please undo what I did. I gladly obliged. He was able to win the rest of his matches but he didn't make it into the finals. He despised me, but also had a grudging respect for me as well. I was kindly asked by the "queen" to please not make another example of anybody. I said I would "do my best." Whatever that may mean.

 

I am not bragging, I am hoping that you all got the example of chivalrous conduct as the flipside to the ability to deal out one's own brand of justice. Responsiblity. Humility. It means you have to be accountable. Self accountable (objective), and accountable to your environment (take care of your universe). Admit to wrongdoing and misjudging, and resolve to repair the damage done. I'm not just paraphrase quoting Windu's little dialog about how he got his special Hurrikanian lightsaber crystals, I am speaking as a normal human being. I am no better than anyone else.

Arrogance is unneccesary.

 

Scope001, If I may put something in perspective: The whim of the force is...... the whim of the force--anyone says what they will about it. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong nor right. In a relative sense, the whim of the force in the way Jedi serve it is not wrong. At least not in terms of a judical and justice POV.

THEIR personal whim on the other hand? It can be individual and have an agenda. THEY, the jedi, are fallible even when meaning well. They answer to the republic and its democracy. If they were self-appointed, anybody can say anything and not be wrong. Maybe it is wrong. Who knows?

Tho, If they were appointed by the republic; a mutually agreeing majority, they are accountable to the body that elected it. Should the jedi fall from grace, and serve their own interest, then they have abdicated their own existence. Or they can be elected out.

 

The Teras Khasi were force sensitive non-users who fely that the jedi should be kept in check at the very least.

 

So far as the anti-force movement:

It's a wonder other religions rarely pop up in SW. (maybe I'm just looking in all the wrong places) However, there was a novel by Kathy Tyers called Truce at Bakura. It cites a cosmos sort of religion that was practiced by Gaerial Capiston--one of the main characters of the story (and Luke's love interest that wasn't to be). While later on Capiston's aunt whom luke healed saw the folly and in other words BS of her own elders (calling jedi heretics), the religion itself is based on balance. Sort of like a Bhuddist-jewish christian type thing--at least to me. While many religions are based on abstracts, I think we can all agree that balance is more than that--it's self evident. A postulate or theorem...an essential law some even would argue.

Jedi use it to teach responsibility of force-usage.

However the cosmos have a point: force users (they specifically say the jedi--but it should mean FS's indiscriminantly) in and of themselves are an upset to the balance. Though it resolves itself: every time the force is used a hapless counterpart elsewhere in the universe diminishes.

Some would give an all too familiar invalidation "well, you can't really prove the link so you can't say that it is" I give the ultimatum that you don't have any proof DIS-proving the link, so YOU can't necessarily say that it ISN'T true either--it's a catch 22. Often times the conflicts do damage their surrounding (even some far away) environments both directly and indirectly. Force usage is as much to blame as anything else. It is Force adepts that seem to prevail the most in SW is it not? So maybe by that count it is more to blame. Just a suggestion.

Frankly, nothing would really change if there were no FS's. There would still be despots, and conflict. Someone else would be the guardians of the republic, and their opposites as forgers of empires.

 

Grey Jedi? Some force it down others' throats, others have it like an opinion they keep to themselves. Jolee did not do nothing--he eventually bowed to the light.

 

Apathy is death according to Kreia--how about according to YOU? Anybody else?

 

I disagree that light jedi necessarily have more experience. Greys may just be testing the waters on both sides before making a decision. They may be stagnating and doing nothing, or they may be cunning and wiser that the rest.

 

Your point is well taken about compulsively acting, it can be quite damaging...by the same token though I partially agree with Poiuy as well: sometimes the jedi do cause problems by inaction; It is just as big a fault to Overly debate and intellectualize......which if it is, it's an act of doing nothing--and what did you just say about doing nothing? I think you get the point. It's a fine line--like razor's edge. That's the difficulty of...well, life in general even...and its beauty.

[logan23]

I see the Jedi is a order thats built on the idea of using the force in a positive way to help others and promote life.

 

The problem is the Force is a life force that flows through all and can not be fully govern by good or bad. The force is in most cases grey since it has a will of its own which is what bothered Kreia.

 

The person who uses the force and trains themselves in the use of such power can become imprisoned by its will. You can try to make everything good like the Jedi but the truth is the grey area is actually the true power in the force since it allows the person who uses it to feel less pressure emotionally. A grey Jedi will have a harder time falling to the dark side or even to the light side since there is no major pressure on their beliefs. The grey beliefs are more flexabile and in turn will do little impact on the force user emotional state.

[Jvstice]

GTA: very well said. And for the most part, I agree. I'm not so sure about

Grey Jedi? Some force it down others' throats, others have it like an opinion they keep to themselves. Jolee did not do nothing--he eventually bowed to the light.

 

Apathy is death according to Kreia--how about according to YOU? Anybody else?

 

I do believe that there is value to be found when lives are not on the line, in refusing to commit yourself to a side in a conflict until you know all the facts of a specific situation. Sometimes, even when lives are on the line, a wait and see approach is better. It's not always the best thing to jump into the middle of a fight when there are two groups eager to commit genocide to each other, then hand the reigns of power over to the losing side once you've prevented the originally winnning side from getting their way. Often that just succeeds in disarming a group who also have a motive of defending themselves, who went a little too far in following their fears.

 

And a lot of the troubles in the day don't really have a good straight forward answer. How do you weaken two sets of enemies to a similar degree so that they are not inclined to attack each other and that you're not stuck playing as their police man for the next milennium?

 

The LS naive would have chosen to side with the loser, and believed them when they assured them that a new age was dawning. A more knowledgeable LS individual might figure that achieving a balance of power and strengthening the losing side so that a cold war would develop would be a more productive solution. A Dark sider would see about either better arming or training the already winning side and taking credit for a clean, quick victory, and using the political good will in order to get their allies to agree with their own long term agenda.

 

A grey Jedi might see that these solutions were less than ideal, and hold off committing themselves to one or the other. When all of the options are bad, people aren't necessarily bad because they refuse to commit themselves to a solution that perpetuates and spreads evil.

 

THEIR personal whim on the other hand? It can be individual and have an agenda. THEY, the jedi, are fallible even when meaning well. They answer to the republic and its democracy. If they were self-appointed, anybody can say anything and not be wrong. Maybe it is wrong. Who knows?

Actually, I'd argue that the Jedi order does exactly this in many cases. I'd argue that they're simply an organized religion that's gotten too tied up in the government ruling their people. They have appointed themselves socety's guardians. That's not entirely their fault, because most of the dangers to society over the millenia have been by rogue and power hungry offshoot cults broken off from their religion, and much of that is owning up to their responsibilities in creating such monsters like the Sith, but somewhere a line was crossed. They are a religion that stands on the brink of assuming all the power of an ecclesia in the Old Republic as of SW Episodes 1-2.

[Darth Avlectus]

GTA: very well said. And for the most part, I agree. I'm not so sure about

 

 

I do believe that there is value to be found when lives are not on the line, in refusing to commit yourself to a side in a conflict until you know all the facts of a specific situation.

 

I think we agree here. Like I said, fine line with razor's edge width. However thais is only in ideal situations. Practical is, well, not so nice.

Plus with misinformation, noninformation and fallacy, as well as propaganda designed to tear unity apart and weaken individuals, it is all the more difficult to discern good choice from bad. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Both choices are bad (inaction vs action); here is the compromize between the lesser of two evils. Not something anyone likes doing. Unless they are causing the evil...lol.

 

 

Sometimes, even when lives are on the line, a wait and see approach is better. It's not always the best thing to jump into the middle of a fight when there are two groups eager to commit genocide to each other, then hand the reigns of power over to the losing side once you've prevented the originally winnning side from getting their way. Often that just succeeds in disarming a group who also have a motive of defending themselves, who went a little too far in following their fears.

 

Or it paints a target reticle on your head. For one group or the other--hard to say which exactly either.

 

OF course if one or both groups are militant and dislike everyone who isn't one of them (like some-but not all- factions of middle east religions), it just gives a reason for their haterd of you that they already have anyway.

 

 

And a lot of the troubles in the day don't really have a good straight forward answer.

 

If I had a dollar for everytime THAT has come up in my life I'd be out of debt right now.

 

How do you weaken two sets of enemies to a similar degree so that they are not inclined to attack each other and that you're not stuck playing as their police man for the next milennium?

 

You realize there is no simple answer to that question...don't you?

IMPO: you must force your hand and insist at the solution: an improvise, not a compromise where one kisses both of their @$$es and remains the police force forever. If they don't, it's time for aggressive negotiations.

 

Are you referencing the war in the middle east?

Those people are not used to democracy and while we fight this war ultimately, they will have to fight the evil within themselves and their own if they want democracy to take hold. Not that I necessarily am for or against this war, however there are a few things I have seen that have made me largely disillusioned with this war where I was not. If you all don't mind and quite frankly even if you do, I don't want to talk about this war.

 

 

The LS naive would have chosen to side with the loser, and believed them when they assured them that a new age was dawning. A more knowledgeable LS individual might figure that achieving a balance of power and strengthening the losing side so that a cold war would develop would be a more productive solution. A Dark sider would see about either better arming or training the already winning side and taking credit for a clean, quick victory, and using the political good will in order to get their allies to agree with their own long term agenda.

 

Or the darksider would kill the stronger to rule the weaker, so in case the weaker ever attempted a mutiny, the DS'er would not have as much of a problem rectifying the situation.

 

 

A grey Jedi might see that these solutions were less than ideal, and hold off committing themselves to one or the other. When all of the options are bad, people aren't necessarily bad because they refuse to commit themselves to a solution that perpetuates and spreads evil.

 

OK we agree here. OR choose one of the evils...all depending on desired conclusion which is a way that grey seems to largely control fate and destiny--especially their own. Jolee, for all his time being a hermit, decided to live his life according to what he believed was right. IT may appear to everyone else he was lollygagging, but I'd argue he was roughing it to find his inner path. And largely to stay away from the more orthodox jedi. Sure he lived a rough hermit life, but a little time or a lot to yourself is just what you need in a vexing and painful situation such as his. Also, whilst I am not necessarily happy with my job of largely manual labor--I'd like to put on the table what "God" in bruce almighty said (gotts ta love m. freeman) "There is freedom in it. Some people go home smelling to high heaven, but are the happiest people ever."

 

I learned yesterday that I am a fatalist to a degree and that may be one of the major knots comprising my ambivalence and my underachievement concerning college and my career.

 

Actually, I'd argue that the Jedi order does exactly this in many cases. I'd argue that they're simply an organized religion that's gotten too tied up in the government ruling their people. They have appointed themselves socety's guardians. That's not entirely their fault, because most of the dangers to society over the millenia have been by rogue and power hungry offshoot cults broken off from their religion, and much of that is owning up to their responsibilities in creating such monsters like the Sith, but somewhere a line was crossed. They are a religion that stands on the brink of assuming all the power of an ecclesia in the Old Republic as of SW Episodes 1-2.

 

If they are self appointed, then frankly everyone should be able to judge them--especially if they are unequaled and such "superior" beings. While they can stave off enemies where others can't, fine. Regardless, if they decide their agenda is more important than everyone else's (which may or may not be the will of the force), then they have put themselves in a predicament of being everyones enemy and perhaps even as despots. They don't really deserve sympathy--their just-deserts indeed..... no more, no less.

 

Beauracracy is never a kind job nor a glamorous one, but we all have to do it insome way at some point--NOBODY escapes it.

 

Not necessarily broken off from their religion-- but otherwise disgruntled.

 

If it is not the governmets that rule, it is the strongest of people (corporate often times--or cults ) that rule. Strong being in a relative sense--powerful is probably more accurate, whatever it may be in certain cases. However, where any groups have dissagreements an arrangement that puts all groups involved, and any other group or individuals that may get involved, all at a standstill until an agreement that is satisfactory can be reached is best--in my opinion at least. However over time the balance of this tips one way or another--then everyone notices and wants to fix it their own way. And that is what has happened in america, here.

[Tengu]

Field excicuting someone who has surrendered isn't justice.

 

Hi everyone

 

I'm new posting, but I have been following some of the discussions in the Forums for a while.

 

And -with due respect to those who feel very strongly against Anakin- I believe Eagle Racer has a point. I mean, it's easy to rush and convict Anakin: in truth, he's simply obnoxious, especially in AOTC. Arrogant, reckless, selfish, undisciplined, angry, ambitious to the extreme. This is undeniable. But surely -one would say- there must be extenuating circumstances. And this is what, I understand, is what Eagle Racer was trying to note. And I do believe Eagle Racer was too generous with the Jedi Council.

 

Let's remember Anakin through the movies. I wonder how come "Anakin-TPM" -the "funny little boy", who "knows no greed"- became the AOTC & ROTS Anakin. And I believe Anakin reflects, magnified to a superlative degree, what the Jedi Order is. He's arrogant, because he learnt from his masters. He's ambitious, because his masters are mostly incompetent and lack leadership.

 

Before the storm starts, I would like to argue why I say this:

 

ARE THE JEDI ARROGANT?

 

Qui-Gon is an experienced Jedi, he was there and barely escaped with his life and he says his adversary on Tatooine (Darth Maul) was a Sith. And what were Mace Windu's and Ki-Adi Mundi's reactions? To deny this, because they know better! This in itself, is evidence of arrogance, but what about their body languages? Maybe this is just my reading, but the feeling I have when I see this scene is like Windu is thinking: "Man, this guy is a pain in the backside and a fool". Doesn't his hand-waving (when accepting to see Anakin) reeks of condescencion? I believe it was Sam L. Jackson himself who said something about Windu being a Jedi with an attitude... a very bad one, I would add.

 

When Obi-Wan asks Jocasta Nu about Kamino, what was her answer? "If it's not in the Archives, it does not exist"! Is this arrogance (and stupidity, to booth) or what? Is it any wonder Anakin became arrogant?

 

ARE THE JEDI INCOMPETENT?

 

What about the incompetence and lack of leadership charge? Again let's try with Windu and this time, with Yoda: when Palpy makes his "Grand Army of the Republic" speech, what were Yoda's and Windu's reactions? They did not deliberate, they did not think alternative courses of action. Windu jumps and decides to "take what Jedi we have left" and go to Geonosis, where he engages an enemy force much superior to his own (for the sake of three persons only!), under extremely unfavorable circumstances, starts a war, looses much of his command and, with no consultation whatsoever with those under him, decides to refuse surrendering and to fight to the death! In other words: the dynamic trio was valuable enough to risk the lives of "the Jedi we have left", but not valuable enough to ask them what to do next. The other Jedi, the lesser ones, had no word in this decision either: they just have to do as Master Windu says, because he knows better. It's the Jedi Code! Isn't it? If Yoda did not arrive to save the day, Windu, the surviving Jedi, and the three super-ultra-hyper-VIP would have died. Isn't this enough proof of incompetence? And also arrogance and disregard for other people's lives and opinions?

 

To Yoda's credit, it was him who managed to avoid a complete disaster. But, let's be fair, why didn't he question Windu's decision? After all, he was the Headmaster of the Jedi Order, as I understand it. That was weak leadership, in my opinion. And, for the record, Yoda (after Qui-Gon) is my favorite Jedi and in general a likeble figure. Was Windu demoted? Reprimanded? Questioned afterwards? I don't think so.

 

Faced with this incompetence, Anakin had reasons to believe he could do better. Heck! I could, and I am no Jedi.

 

I can go on: the young Obi-Wan, in TPM, seems more concerned with pleasing the Jedi Council (in order to lead a "successful career") than with doing the right thing for "another pathetic life-form": "If you followed the Code, you would be a member of the Council". Furthermore, does it smells of "interplanetary" racism? What about his attitude towards droids? Is it just me, or he displays a clear contempt towards droids as well? "If they could think". Where is the famous Jedi compassion? Is there anything -besides the Council, of course- that is not too insignificant to Obi-Wan?

 

Still with Obi-Wan: does anyone feel that part of the reason Obi-Wan was so grumpy and ever nagging in AOTC was sheer insecurity about his ability to match Anakin's skills? I mean, they had that embarrasing argument before Padme and her entourage. But he jumps (literally!) to grab the assassin droid and a little later, the Jedi Council itself basically confirms Anakin's position: they must find who was behind the assassination attempts! This was what the apprentice was telling the master, to the latter's displeasure! Granted: as a trainee, Anakin was a pain. And it wasn't his place to question his master in public. But the matter remains: he was right and Obi-Wan was wrong. Furthermore was Obi-Wan an examplary teacher? If he felt insecure, why didn't he ask for help or to be relieved in this duty?

 

What about his inability to listen and care about Anakin's visions? Why couldn't he admit to Anakin that he was afraid of flying? No, it was Anakin's fault. But he admitted being afraid of flying when he was alone and Jango was chasing him. This sounds rather petty, doesn't it? In my opinion (and, more importantly, in his own words), he did fail Anakin.

 

Talking about rules that cannot be broken: in ROTS the Jedi Council, off the record, asks Anakin to break the law and spy on the Supreme Chancellor in times of war! And the way they chose to deal with the situation is a pearl of diplomacy, tact and psychology! First they humiliate Anakin (who is admittedly as arrogant as it gets) by denying him the mastership, THEN they ask him to break all the rules and betray the person Anakin genuinely (although mistakenly) considers his best friend. That makes sense, doesn't it?

 

But, of course, we know that to break a rule is only wrong when done by the bad guys. When the good guys break the rules, it's okay. That's why Anakin killing Dooku was murder; while Windu trying to kill Palpatine was altogether different. Has anyone noticed that Palpatine justified the first killing in pretty much the same terms that Windu tried to justify the second: he was too powerful to be kept alive. Why is this wrong with one and right with the other? Ah! Now I get it: in one case, one says: "Anakin murdered Dooku". Sounds bad, doesn't it? In the other case "Windu DESTROYED the Dark Lord". As in "Who was destroyed? The Master or the Apprentice?" Hmmm, much... better?!

 

Wait... Oh? I lost it again! Is basic morality just a matter of choosing the right euphemism? Because, let's face it, we don't need to find a quote (and, as we have seen, those quotes do exist) to show that Jedi do not approve of murder, not even of Sith Lords. This is a matter of everyday morality. That's why, for instance, in everyday life Police officers are not allowed to just execute people evidently guilty of murder or rape. Thank the Force, in another very similar scene, Luke decided to spare Vader. So we have that rules are both absolute and relative: the Jedi Code cannot be broken (otherwise, there is no Code at all), but it's right to "destroy" a seemingly unarmed and surrendered enemy and break the laws of the Republic. Just great.

 

Finally, the Jedi Council did not distrust Anakin because they suspected he was up to something. They distrusted and feared him from the start, when he was only a "funny, little boy" and wasn't up to anything. Let's remember Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan before leaving to Naboo: "They all fear him. Why can't you see it?" Let's remember the scene where Anakin (who's only nine years old and who surely feels alone and intimidated) is grilled by the Council. I would describe their attitude towards "the boy" as chilly, at best. Was there any empathy in that scene? Not even from Yoda, who was so caring about his younglings. Is there any doubt that "the boy" would feel this hostility and would turn it against those who were hostile towards him? Because, and make no mistake in this, he felt it: "I don't want to be a problem".

 

This is one of the reasons I like Qui-Gon: he may not be the best warrior, the most influential or powerful Jedi, but at least he was honest and tried to do what he thought was best. With Anakin's mother and Jar-Jar Binks he acted in a humane way. He provided a father figure to Anakin: a bit protective, a bit teacher. He fought bravely and intelligently against Darth Maul, although his skills were evidently no match against Maul's. He also acted with dignity and showed moral courage, by assuming his responsibility for looking after Anakin, in spite of the Council's (and Obi-Wan's) obvious opposition. Maybe, according to the Jedi Council and the Code, he wasn't a good Jedi; to me, he qualifies as a great and tragic character.

 

Yoda reveals a sense of humor and wisdom, a measure of strategic thinking, intelligence and perspicacity; he shows he personally cares about Padme, and demonstrates warmth to the younglings, compassion towards Obi-Wan and friendship towards the Wookies, although Windu's personality seems too overwhelming for him to handle. Which is a BIIIIIG weakness, if you ask me. But he also shows tact, trying not to further alienate the older Anakin. In ROTS, he tried to mask the true reasons behind the decision of sending Obi-Wan to Utapau, under the "a Master, with more experience" thing. In other words: offer Anakin a way of saving face. Windu disregarded the whole issue and seems happy to just antagonize Anakin. Yoda also tried to guide Anakin.

 

In Obi-Wan's defence: as the SW story advances, he gradually changes into a more likeble character. Which I would say is good story-telling. He starts to show more humane traits (as Anakin does, until he attacks the Temple and "destroys" -or is it "murders"?- the younglings). But in TPM and AOTC, "from my point of view", he is found rather wanting. In ROTS and the OT he reminds me more of Qui-Gon.

 

The other Jedi, as others have said before, just piss me off: too much posturing, too little humanity. As I once heard: "too big a bubble for so little bubble-gum". And notice that I am being really charitable here: I am not mentioning anything from TSL. If I did, this message would last forever.

 

Sure, Anakin is guilty and must bear responsibility for his acts. I do not dispute that. What's more, I don't like him much, especially in AOTC. In his defence, he did try to do the right thing. That's is more than what the Jedi Council, as a whole, did.

[Darth Avlectus]

Hello and welcome to lucasforums, Tengu.

 

I must say, Looks like you have had a lot to get off your chest.

 

 

 

Hi everyone

 

I'm new posting, but I have been following some of the discussions in the Forums for a while. And -with due respect to those who feel very strongly against Anakin- I believe Eagle Racer has a point. I mean, it's easy to rush and convict Anakin: in truth,........ This is undeniable. But surely -one would say- there must be extenuating circumstances. And this is what, I understand, is what Eagle Racer was trying to note. And I do believe Eagle Racer was too generous with the Jedi Council.

 

As far as reflecting the attitude of the council--really anybody anywhere is like that, If you think about it. Point taken.

 

However, I should like to point out that sidious had also been working on him at least as long as the jedi. "We will watch your career with great interest." Sidious may have helped anakin and guided him, howver some traits of sidious (wittingly or unwittingly if you will) probably rubbed off on him there as well.

 

My only *real* qualms with anakin are that he

1) he never realized that someone like sidious ultimately would never and could never hold the best interests of himself or his family to be.

2) his pursuit of justice was so dogged that he was ultimately blind and short sighted to many things especially padme and how theresto of the galaxy reacted--ever heard the saying justice is blind? Of course he did say he was a slow learner--it took 'till the end for him to see the light as it were about sidious

3) for all his power he could not think critically about the situations he was in. He could not step outside himself.

 

I wonder how come "Anakin-TPM" -the "funny little boy", who "knows no greed"- became the AOTC & ROTS Anakin. And I believe Anakin reflects, magnified to a superlative degree, what the Jedi Order is. He's arrogant, because he learnt from his masters. He's ambitious, because his masters are mostly incompetent and lack leadership.

 

Remember that sidious had been getting him to believe he would be all powerful? That HE could make changes? That it was only natural to pursue pursue pursue? How many times did you see sidious dole out THAT kind of praise and advice to him? Part of it was also natural--just like it is to anybody else. The jedi are not patron saints but come on--sidious had at least as much of a hand in why anakin was the way he was, as the jedi.

 

As for mace and co.,

They were self deceived--that kind of denial comes with getting to be a master of sorts--you will find it everywhere. Professors, coaches, housekeepers, doctors and nurses, business, religions. Also, true that the rudeness is inexcusable and unecessary. Arrogance kept them from seeing the truth until Obi-Wan told what dooku said. They generally all don't trust politicians. However, they were doing their jobs keeping the peace and a little to busy to notice a despot beginning to form in the senate. Plus if you were constantly weary from your tasks I seriously doubt you'd be interested enough to keep an eye on such mundaineties as politics and beuracracy any longer that you'd really have to. That is what kept sidious cloaked so long.

 

While windu's martial might might have been a bit incompetent in the big picture--perhaps even fallen into the trap (at AOTC he was not as unstoppable as ROTS either), there had to be someone there to meet the separatist's military might head on. Also, if he hadn't shown up when he did, the destroyer droids would have killed the trio. Afterword, yoda was aware what a mistake it was BTW.

 

One value I try to have is humility. To not be arrogant and condescending. I rather look down on others for having those traits. Yes that in and of itself is sort of the same--but it has a ballasting effect in that I use it to attack itself. You also cannot get down on others without first looking skeptically at yourself. They probably did tend to forget this I bet.

 

Windu had a bad attitude because he was the "bad-ass" of the order--bad asses have a bit of what is known as marauder's fury. Fett (both) has/had that very same thing. Not the nicest guys--which has its price. He was also a dogged pursuer of justice--therefore blind.

Thank you tho--Now I think I know why I had a bitter dislike of mace windu a while back--I couldn't quite materialze into words. Ironic, probably I didn't like him because I was looking at a lot of myself and didn't like what I saw.

What you haven't seen is his humane side. Would you believe that he was actually late to join his peers in that he had not built his first lightsaber until he was almost 14? Everyone laughed at him and treated him like he was a bad joke--not a bad ass. His studies in philisophy and democracy were all that kept him from turning darkside. He just doesn't tend to put up with BS with out it being like a loading spring effect. Also, he was NOT the best lightsaberist to ever live, he only invented the revised version (HIS revision of) lightsaber form 7. IMO it's only really usable to HIM because it's his "special" form--I think we all have heard this sort of thing before...poetic justice perhaps that it died with him? Also, To be a better swordsman, your bladework must EXCEED all others': In shatterpoint, His apprentice, Depa Billaba turned to the dark side; they fought, her bladework actually exceeded his! Nobody bothers to mention this because it was only temporary. If it was not for him *thinking* fast and actually dodging out of the way--a move other physical badass types would call sissy--she would have killed him VERY quickly. You can defeat form 7 without matching or exceeding it--by tactical prowess and outsmarting your opponent. Dep was also like a daughter to him, they were a little closer than most masters and apprentices. So he actually had a soft spot. He knew Anakin was trying hard to please the order as dep tried to pleas him and his unyielding ways...it was about to change--but it was too little too late.

 

Having a few things personally in common with mace I'll say this: put into positions of leadership, I have been irritable and yes even had a poor attitude. As a ref of soccer, I red carded both teams in a game ---at a tournament no less. destroyed both their chances at getting gold. However I was not going to play politics and bias myself to one or the other. Both teams were insulting my intellegence acting all saintly to my face and yet cheapshotting each other behind my back--and then talking trash to my face that I was incompetent. Wouldn't YOU react in kind?

Where I have to deal with someone who rubs me the wrong way with blatant disregard, condescention, and arrogance-- though it is tempting to not be civil and even bend the rules a bit to get back at him, you drop yourself to their level or even lower. it depends. Try to be the better person--it really does matter.

 

ARE THE JEDI INCOMPETENT?

What about the incompetence and lack of leadership charge? Again let's try with Windu (and Yoda): when Palp makes his "Grand Army of the Republic" speech, what were Yoda's and Windu's reactions? ..... did not deliberate, did not think of alternative courses of action. Windu decides to "take what Jedi we have left" and go to Geonosis, engages an enemy force much superior to his own (for the sake of three persons only!), under extremely unfavorable circumstances, starts a war, looses much of his command and, with no consultation whatsoever with those under him, decides to refuse surrendering and to fight to the death!

I think lucas intentionally put the absurdity there so we can gauge this sort of thing and see the true tragedies--or maybe you are pointing out the major flaws SW critics have seen all along that we hardcore fans have not.

You sound like a good tactician. Admittedly, a hit and run tactic might have worked better.

 

Seeing as how many in the galaxy (whom I might add are good citizens that do not mean bad nor are they corrupt by the dark lord) distrust jedi anyway, I think it was a little difficult to find willing mercinary volunteers on such short notice--especially seeing as how it had to be kept "under the radar" for a short time. The clock was ticking--any more time and the 3 would have been killed. And the clones were only just discovered. Just because they were more dependent does not necessarily mean weak minded either, in fact it takes a strong will and mind to unquestioningly follow commands of an established leader. While ready to go then, over time clones probably required a bit of levelling with if they were to respect commanding officers. It was a strategem with which to buy a little more time, that was all. And I do not believe the 3 were in a psychological mindset to take charge--with them about to be excecuted and all. Overall I think you got a point--it was a trap and perhaps a stupid mistake by the jedi...sidious all the while watching and observing. And plotting.

 

other Jedi, lesser ones, had no word in this decision either: because windu knows better. It's the Jedi Code! Isn't it? If Yoda didn't arrive to save the day, Windu, the surviving Jedi, and the three ...VIP would've died. Isn't this enough proof of incompetence? And also arrogance and disregard for other people's lives and opinions?

 

Maybe it was incompetence and disregard...That non-skepticism was a result of fallability-- the price they paid because they tended to stay away from politics and preferred to take action on the field. Or it was simply a hasty decision made? Consider.

Who knows? MAybe you are right--that this could have ended better had things been done a different way--the deaths of the 3 may have actually been a blessing. Maybe the galaxy would have been better off had the 3 died. 'Course it would mean that the succeding episodes would now not have come to fruition..........

 

I'm no sheeple--I'll think outside the box......so would you at least enlighten me via PM to your view--and share it in a concise way with all the others?However, can you honestly say they had anywhere to go? Namely a way that would still have gotten the job done and satisfied the series?

 

Jedi committed their lives to their service. I agree though, spending their valuable lives like chattle and cannon fodder is reprehensible.

This is one of the hardships of being a leader. It weighs so heavily on your conscience it makes you old...VERRRY fast. I also have this same problem with ultra conformity. "Do as master says or you fail."

 

To Yoda's credit, it was him who managed to avoid a complete disaster. But, be fair, why didn't he question Windu's decision? After all, he was the Headmaster of the Jedi Order, as I understand it. That was weak leadership, in my opinion. And, for the record, Yoda (after Qui-Gon) is my favorite Jedi and in general a likeble figure. Was Windu demoted? Reprimanded? Questioned afterwards? I don't think so.

Perhaps personal politics. Wasn't windu's, It was a mutual decision and one that had to be made on the fly. Perhaps their emphasis on understanding and wisdom of the knowledge they already possesed caused arrogance enough to keep them from pursuing more knowledge? Not that I necessarily agreed with it either. It was the hand they were dealt and they were caught off balance--after all was it not sidious orchestrating this to begin with? Consider also time factor made it so something had to be done.

 

Faced with this incompetence, Anakin had reasons to believe he could do better. Heck! I could, and I am no Jedi.

 

OK let us hear it.

 

young Obi-Wan, in TPM, seems more concerned with pleasing the Jedi Council (in order to lead a "successful career") than with doing the right thing for "another pathetic life-form": "If you followed the Code, you would be a member of the Council".

I can see where you are going with this: this conformalistic bunch of traits is ultimately what failed Anakin. I agree.

Sort of like mainstream religion is an opiate and more concerned with changing the edicts of its people rather than focusing on TRUE spiritual growth.

 

interplanetary racism? ok........ maybe obiwan's comments were a bit uncalled for, still, you have never cursed at an appliance too?...

Perhaps with his youth was a bit of selfishness and not wanting to help anyone out--he was still learning. Jedi are fallible just like everyone else.

 

If I may put obi-wan's teaching anakin into perspective comparing it to when I apprenticed to an electronics engineer for my senior project; tho I knew and understood a lot, I was so gung ho that I actually made matters worse when a problem arose rather than try to think it through logically of what is wrong with a circuit. I didn't listen to him. Later found out that the error was a relatively simple one I could have fixed and ended up with an A instead of a B-. However, what I learned (ALL OF IT--personal and technical) is more valuable than the A could ever have been. My comparison here is what I think obi was trying to impress upon anakin was responsibility values and ethics should come FIRST, to prime him BEFORE action. Again--it isn't always the ideal way we want it for decisions.

 

Leaping out a window and grabbing the droid. Maybe not the smartest move, no. And his complaints, though a bit scathing and uncalled for are not entirely unjustified--it was venting. The same immaturity anakin would have had I bet. Yes it must have come as a big smack in the face that a kid saw what they did not. That sort of wrongness leads those in charge (in any field) to get vindictive and self riteous. Which ultimately is stupidity. Course they did begin to realize they could benifit from his traits and decided to finally let him go on his first mission.

 

I agree anakin was a pain, aren't we all somehow? Anakin was right--and that is the tragedy.

What about his inability to listen and care about Anakin's visions? Detatchment.

Why couldn't he admit to Anakin that he was afraid of flying? No, it was Anakin's fault.

Self riteousness. Quite petty. Mentors are like that especially as your maturity approaches and perhaps exceeds their own. Compensation is only natural is it not?

 

The punch line was ultimately that anakin went where he felt most welcomed, and sidious did use that type of persuasion to bring anakin to his aid. Persuasivness is underestimated.

But, of course, we know that to break a rule is only wrong when done by the bad guys. When the good guys break the rules, it's okay.

 

True it is a double standard. Like when a cop busts someone for the sake of a quota and no laws were actually broken.

 

 

That's why Anakin killing Dooku was murder; while Windu trying to kill Palpatine was altogether different. Has anyone noticed that Palpatine justified the first killing in pretty much the same terms that Windu tried to justify the second: he was too powerful to be kept alive.

 

I noticed the dialogue was the same, however the situation was NOT the same: count would have told anakin everything quite repentively when he came out of shock of betrayal had anakin waited that long and that would have been it. Sidious on the other hand was always going to usurp control of the galaxy, and make the galaxy miserable. He was always going to move to a better individual to be his sith apprentice when somebody who was better than vader came along. Also "the power you give to me I WILL lay down when this crisis has abated." False because he was behind the whole war to begin with. When Finis Valorum (SW republic comic #63) enlightened bail organa--which palpatine was spying on--to what was going on and that palpatine was the source of corruption, and what he was doing and planning to do, Palpatine had to take him out. Kindly, gently and indirectly threatened bail...he would trash bail's reputation the same way he did to finis. Go read it sometime. Or I can scan it and PM it to ya.

 

NOT all jedi believe that certain individuals should be allowed to live.

 

This is a matter of everyday morality. That's why, for instance, in everyday life Police officers are not allowed to just execute people evidently guilty of murder or rape. Thank the Force, in another very similar scene, Luke decided to spare Vader. So we have that rules are both absolute and relative: the Jedi Code cannot be broken (otherwise, there is no Code at all), but it's right to "destroy" a seemingly unarmed and surrendered enemy and break the laws of the Republic. Just great.

Vader for a brief moment sone a bit of his compassion and love in ESB trying to turn luke--the last part he showed to Padm'e ironically. He also couldn't help but smile when in shadows of the empire, he saw his son alive again after taking Xizor out --more or less. Xizor was going to kill luke and would have succeded if it hadn't been for dear old dad.

 

Qui gon would have been a great father figure and probably was the only one real enough who could have taught anakin in such a way that anakin might not have turned to the dark side. But it wasn't to be. I liked Qui-Gon for his realism too.

 

Anakin was done wrong by the council. They paid for it.

 

The council, though, was not sure if they could teach their values to someone who had already formed an attatchment because that is a handle on which evil may pull the boy away...and it did.

 

As far as yoda, you don't get to be THAT old--or really elderly at all regardless your species--if you don't try to UNDERSTAND people and things. This was one area where windu probably was faint at. He did, however, see that some knots cannot be untied with anything but a blade--and that was how he stopped 2 cousin species from massacreing each other in holy war over the same statue.

 

Wait you were pissed off at the fact of jedi being cannon fodder, but now the jedi aren't humane enough for you? Does that mean the deserved to die for their lack of vision?

 

 

Sometimes it only takes one to see and do the right thing, something that becomes dilluted and distorted with a council.

[Darth Avlectus]

^^

Well said on all points! I'm in a position of somewhat leadership atm, and your thesis has put a few of my rescent descisions into perspective, Turns out I'd be a good Jedi master lol...

 

psychology and Star Wars at LF

 

ARE ju talking to meh??

Whose thesis?

 

You wouldn't believe it but, in person I am actually rather quiet and tend to avoid people. Unless I seem to have reason to engage them.

 

Anyway Tengu, I feel myself to be fairly neutral between jedi and sith, but call 'em like I see 'em. I want to impart an understanding. I'll clarify anything you need me to. Maybe I am a little more light or maybe I'm about to take a plunge. Time will only tell.

[Tengu]

Hello and welcome to lucasforums, Tengu.

 

(...) anybody else. The jedi are not patron saints but come on--sidious had at least as much of a hand in why anakin was the way he was, as the jedi.

 

(...)The punch line was ultimately that anakin went where he felt most welcomed, and sidious did use that type of persuasion to bring anakin to his aid. Persuasivness is underestimated.

 

 

Thanks kindly, GTA:SWcity.

 

That's a very good point, which I failed to mention. Indeed, it's clear that Sidious was manipulating Anakin all along (probably from the very beginning), and inducing him to go against the Order.

 

That's why he decided to appoint Anakin as his PERSONAL representative before the Jedi Council (in ROTS): he must have known that this would not sit well with the other Council members and would cause them to suspect Anakin's motives.

 

Over time, Sidious knew this would only result in widening the rift between Anakin and the Jedi. And it worked remarkably well, for the Council members and Anakin played straight into Sidious's hands. Again: master's incompetence, Anakin's inexperience and arrogance. If this sounds better: call it naivete.

 

Let me put it this way: Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was as much because he stepped off the cliff -and nobody tried to stop him-, as because he was pushed.

 

OK let us hear it.

 

On Windu's Geonosis strike: Let me wear Windu's shoes for a little while. If I were in charge -and as agonizing, unpopular and painful the decision is- I would have done nothing until Yoda arrived with the new Fleet and Army. I am aware this would surely mean Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have died.

 

I mean: a commanding officer is responsible before those in his/her charge, and is also responsible before those above him/her. I would not risk the only Jedi available for the sake of three persons: if something goes wrong (as it did in the movie) I would be leaving the Republic completely unprepared for a further eventuality.

 

Any assessment of the situation, however summary, should have indicated that many things could have gone wrong and that further eventualities were likely to happen. Thus, Windu should have known this. That he did not take this into account, or decided to ignore it, speaks badly of his abilities.

 

Even with the arrival of the Fleet, I would probably have chosen (as my priority) to target the CSI leadership and the CSI ships, and whatever ground defences they had, before attempting a landing. I would have chosen to strike directly from space, as I happen to agree with you: a commando operation (with Jedi, Clone Troopers or whatever) was out of the question.

 

Of course, there is the chain of command thing. I don't believe this decision would be entirely up to me. For one, there is Yoda.

 

 

NOT all jedi believe that certain individuals should be allowed to live.

 

 

I think there is a misunderstanding: I was referring to a specific set of messages. One poster was Eagle Racer and I was agreeing with him (her?).

 

 

Wait you were pissed off at the fact of jedi being cannon fodder, but now the jedi aren't humane enough for you? Does that mean the deserved to die for their lack of vision?

 

 

What I mean is that in general (with the exception of Yoda and Qui-Gon, as previously noted), I don't like the Jedi much.

 

Yes, Windu uses them as cannon fodder and yes, they aren't humane enough (as characters in a movie). They certainly lacked vision, but I don't really think it's a matter of deserving death or not.

 

Mind you, I believe I am getting your gist, so let me state it clearly: most Sith are just brutes and I don't like them much either. I do admire Palpy and Kreia, though. They do have many flaws, but at least they are extremely clever and have interesting things to say.

 

I am currently reading Bane: Path of Destruction and, so far, he seems to be more than a brute. But a final opinion is pending.

 

Cheers

[JediMaster12]

I mean: a commanding officer is responsible before those in his/her charge, and is also responsible before those above him/her.

Yes but there is the unspoken rule of leaving no man behind. A CO does have to take into account the possible losses and while any casualities are not acceptable, they are sometimes unavoidable. Master Windu could have waited for Yoda but he did assume responsiblity to lead the Jedi to rescue Obi-Wan. In a sense he was the CO of that mission, to retrieve. It goes part in part with the Jedi valuing life.

[Darth Avlectus]

Thanks kindly, GTA:SWcity.

 

That's a very good point, which I failed to mention. Indeed, it's clear that Sidious was manipulating Anakin all along (probably from the very beginning), and inducing him to go against the Order.

 

That's why he decided to appoint Anakin as his PERSONAL representative before the Jedi Council (in ROTS): he must have known that this would not sit well with the other Council members and would cause them to suspect Anakin's motives.

 

Over time, Sidious knew this would only result in widening the rift between Anakin and the Jedi. And it worked remarkably well, for the Council members and Anakin played straight into Sidious's hands. Again: master's incompetence, Anakin's inexperience and arrogance. If this sounds better: call it naivete.

 

Let me put it this way: Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was as much because he stepped off the cliff -and nobody tried to stop him-, as because he was pushed.

 

I agree. It was also scheming and conniving of sidious, as well as blindness and naivete of anakin, as well as goading and arrogance of most the other jedi.

 

The truth of the matter: sometimes disaster HAS to happen in order for certian other things to happen; that being emergence of vader for Kenobi--and probably even yoda to realize understand qui gon's "crazy old man's" views.

 

Tho the whole "secret of the wills" in the ROTS comic thing pissed off uncle george and is not recognized as a part of *his* work due to its fortelling (translation: spoiling) of the underlying message he was sending (as well as conflicting certain canon EU stuffs), you can get this from it:

to selflessly give your life shall immortalize you. He did at least acknowledge that much in his rolling stone interview--the 2005 issue of darth vader and the cult obsession, or somesuch. Go read it sometime.

 

Qui gon, and to an extent Jolee, seem to have that forthrightness to their views that negate the inflationary arrogance. Qui gon actually reminds me of my own father in that way.

 

 

 

On Windu's Geonosis strike: Let me wear Windu's shoes for a little while. If I were in charge -and as agonizing, unpopular and painful the decision is- I would have done nothing until Yoda arrived with the new Fleet and Army. I am aware this would surely mean Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have died.

 

I mean: a commanding officer is responsible before those in his/her charge, and is also responsible before those above him/her. I would not risk the only Jedi available for the sake of three persons: if something goes wrong (as it did in the movie) I would be leaving the Republic completely unprepared for a further eventuality.

 

Any assessment of the situation, however summary, should have indicated that many things could have gone wrong and that further eventualities were likely to happen. Thus, Windu should have known this. That he did not take this into account, or decided to ignore it, speaks badly of his abilities.

 

Even with the arrival of the Fleet, I would probably have chosen (as my priority) to target the CSI leadership and the CSI ships, and whatever ground defences they had, before attempting a landing. I would have chosen to strike directly from space, as I happen to agree with you: a commando operation (with Jedi, Clone Troopers or whatever) was out of the question.

 

Of course, there is the chain of command thing. I don't believe this decision would be entirely up to me. For one, there is Yoda.

 

They were a council-- no ONE individual decides anything alone. A saving grace, and sadly a flaw too. Not to say they didn't think of reprimanding mace--it was that the concil as a whole probably silently allowed it while not choosing to agree or disagree. Ominously similar to underachievement in that it sees something, lets it pass but didn't make a decision NOT to let it pass. May jusy be my opinion. Or the council had grown blind and unwise to reality after being in their ivory tower after a glorious millenium since they erradicated Bane. That last pat is a hunch, but I don't believe it is unfounded...I can elaborate if you'd like.

 

 

I think there is a misunderstanding: I was referring to a specific set of messages. One poster was Eagle Racer and I was agreeing with him (her?).

 

CAre to bring it up? I don't wish to go searching for what YOU mean--YOU bring it if it is YOUR sentiment...as you have to this point--very impressive.

 

 

What I mean is that in general (with the exception of Yoda and Qui-Gon, as previously noted), I don't like the Jedi much.

 

Yes, Windu uses them as cannon fodder and yes, they aren't humane enough (as characters in a movie). They certainly lacked vision, but I don't really think it's a matter of deserving death or not.

 

Mind you, I believe I am getting your gist, so let me state it clearly: most Sith are just brutes and I don't like them much either. I do admire Palpy and Kreia, though. They do have many flaws, but at least they are extremely clever and have interesting things to say.

 

I am currently reading Bane: Path of Destruction and, so far, he seems to be more than a brute. But a final opinion is pending.

 

Cheers

 

Neither do I. However, I will make on a humorous note, that in most RP's and stuff I have done--whether done by friends or groups or websites my decisions and my viewpoints seem to make me both a target and a desirable for jedi and sith alike. As well as numerous other groups. Even if I am a weakling or a non FS.

 

 

I bought "Path" several weeks ago--I tell ya, for not being a "book guy"--not most of the time, I found myself unable to put the book down--unless I got neck pains or was too tired. Why not share your impressions over on my thread "views on sith"?

--yes I do intend to become more of a bokworm--couldn't hurt. At least it'd get my attention off the BS news...I could go on all day about the TV media, but it would only infuriate me. I have enough experience here that I became utterly sickened upon learning the true way they operate.

 

I look forward to "Path's" sequel this december.

 

Darth Sid, eh, well he did have a little humanity but it was superficial--but I'd say Bane had more "real" humanity. Bane had to search for a way not to go back into the light just a little-- and still find sufficient reason to leave Caleb the healer and his daughter alive. May just be my opinion.

 

Sidious wanted to keep it all for himself--whereas bane wanted it to be passed on, immortally. Even when the sith had overthrown the jedi. Perhaps Sidious was just looking for the right one to succeed him; there was a comic where vader attemped to overthrow him. Vader was not powerful enough--as he should have been (courtesy kenobi and mustafar--and vader's own stupidity--I don't care what anyone says THAT was the reason). Luke could have, but it didn't work that way.

 

Kreia--meh...... she's a lot like sidious, but she's largely a reflection of your actions. She betrays you regardless; If you are light, she's like a mother figure and such; you know the rest if you are dark. Sid was of his own accord at all times. Sidious also, once in power, succeded his rule to that of the strong instead of only 2; where he and vader were the 2 that ruled, there were many minions who were FS. Just delve a little. Hethrir, one of Vader's apprentices, was behind all the stuff in the jedi knight series (with katarn). Heth ends (dies?) in the novel Crystal Dwarf--or something like that. Just look up "Hethrir" in wookieepedia. I read the novel years ago. It's cool to know there is also an anti-force universe.

[Tengu]

Yes but there is the unspoken rule of leaving no man behind. A CO does have to take into account the possible losses and while any casualities are not acceptable, they are sometimes unavoidable. Master Windu could have waited for Yoda but he did assume responsiblity to lead the Jedi to rescue Obi-Wan. In a sense he was the CO of that mission, to retrieve. It goes part in part with the Jedi valuing life.

 

Thanks for the reply JediMaster12.

 

Yes, there is that too. That's why it's a painful and unpopular decision.

 

But, apart from the reasons I already gave to justify my decision (were I in Windu's boots), there is Mace Windu's own doubts in Shatterpoint: killing (or capturing) Dooku and the CIS leadership would have avoided the Clone Wars, sparing millions (billions?). A matter of the greater good, for the greater numbers.

 

Besides, in both KOTOR and TSL similar situations arise, and the decision is the same: leave someone behind. Bastila on board the Leviathan and Kreia on board the Harbinger.

 

I guess it all boilds down to personal values.

 

Cheers.

[Tengu]

They were a council-- no ONE individual decides anything alone. A saving grace, and sadly a flaw too. Not to say they didn't think of reprimanding mace--it was that the concil as a whole probably silently allowed it while not choosing to agree or disagree. Ominously similar to underachievement in that it sees something, lets it pass but didn't make a decision NOT to let it pass. May jusy be my opinion. Or the council had grown blind and unwise to reality after being in their ivory tower after a glorious millenium since they erradicated Bane. That last pat is a hunch, but I don't believe it is unfounded...I can elaborate if you'd like.

 

Please, do elaborate.

 

But, I believe we have a little disagreement here: the decisions in general may be collegiate (it's a council, after all), but Windu was on the spot when the things were happening. I suppose there was room enough for autonomy in that case.

 

CAre to bring it up? I don't wish to go searching for what YOU mean--YOU bring it if it is YOUR sentiment...as you have to this point--very impressive.

 

Thanks, but I rather not. The topic seems to have lost interest.

 

Neither do I. However, I will make on a humorous note, that in most RP's and stuff I have done--whether done by friends or groups or websites my decisions and my viewpoints seem to make me both a target and a desirable for jedi and sith alike. As well as numerous other groups. Even if I am a weakling or a non FS.

 

 

I bought "Path" several weeks ago--I tell ya, for not being a "book guy"--not most of the time, I found myself unable to put the book down--unless I got neck pains or was too tired. Why not share your impressions over on my thread "views on sith"?

--yes I do intend to become more of a bokworm--couldn't hurt. At least it'd get my attention off the BS news...I could go on all day about the TV media, but it would only infuriate me. I have enough experience here that I became utterly sickened upon learning the true way they operate.

 

I look forward to "Path's" sequel this december.

 

I'm looking forward to this new book, too. I didn't know they were planning a new Bane story.

 

Darth Sid, eh, well he did have a little humanity but it was superficial--but I'd say Bane had more "real" humanity. Bane had to search for a way not to go back into the light just a little-- and still find sufficient reason to leave Caleb the healer and his daughter alive. May just be my opinion.

 

Sidious wanted to keep it all for himself--whereas bane wanted it to be passed on, immortally. Even when the sith had overthrown the jedi. Perhaps Sidious was just looking for the right one to succeed him; there was a comic where vader attemped to overthrow him. Vader was not powerful enough--as he should have been (courtesy kenobi and mustafar--and vader's own stupidity--I don't care what anyone says THAT was the reason). Luke could have, but it didn't work that way.

 

Kreia--meh...... she's a lot like sidious, but she's largely a reflection of your actions. She betrays you regardless; If you are light, she's like a mother figure and such; you know the rest if you are dark. Sid was of his own accord at all times. Sidious also, once in power, succeded his rule to that of the strong instead of only 2; where he and vader were the 2 that ruled, there were many minions who were FS. Just delve a little. Hethrir, one of Vader's apprentices, was behind all the stuff in the jedi knight series (with katarn). Heth ends (dies?) in the novel Crystal Dwarf--or something like that. Just look up "Hethrir" in wookieepedia. I read the novel years ago. It's cool to know there is also an anti-force universe.

 

Man, here we do have a major disagreement . I am a big Kreia fan.

 

Sure, the old hag was really frustrating: scolding, scolding, scolding. But she wasn't a reflection of one's in-game actions: as you said, she will betray the Exile regardless. Nothing less "reflective" than that.

 

In fact -and it's my take only, I may be mistaken- she had her own agenda all the time. As I understand the TSL story, she had a personal grudge against the Sith and the Jedi, and she chose the Exile as her tool against them. But there was more to it than that: beyond her contempt for Sion and Nihilus, she had excellent, selfless reasons to go want their demise. Namely, Nihilus was a real threat to life. And Sion had no brains to be the scion of the Dark Side knowledge.

 

Likewise with the Jedi Masters: stupid, cowardly, arrogant and manipulative. Lousy teachers. Atris used the Masters on Katarr as a bait, but somehow it failed. So she provided T3-M4 with the information about the other Masters' locations to use the Exile as a lightning rod. The other Masters also were manipulating the Exile to achieve their immediate goals: the stabilization of Dantooine and Onderon. Once these goals were achieved, they blindly ignored the threat of the Sith and had their go at the Exile.

 

Yes, she ruthlessly manipulated and "betrayed" the Exile... But -"from my point of view"- she did it to strenghten the Exile: so the Exile experienced directly the lack of understanding from the Masters, the corruption of Atris, the weakness of Sion and Nihilus. That is, ruthlessly following her philosophy (whether one agrees with it or not), Kreia put test after test on the Exile's path. For instance, walking alone on Korriban (that is, without Kreia), when she must have felt Sion's presence there. If the Exile survived (and even in Korriban Kreia could not avoid helping the Exile), then he (or she) is stronger for that.

 

Kreia's death is the last test the Exile has to pass. That's why she wanted to fight to the death (although she is losing) and why she refused redemption (when she is dying). After that, the Exile is master of his (hers) own destiny, beyond the Jedi or the Sith. "You are not a Jedi, not really". That's why she didn't insist that the Exile stay at Malachor V, or go after Revan. From now on, it's up to the Exile.

 

As I see it, she wasn't lying when she said she loved the Exile. And there was no great shattering reason for that, as she also said. True, the Exile showed her that living without the Force was possible and this made the Exile "beautiful" to her.

 

This is when I bend one knee, lower my head and respectfully ask: What is thy bidding, my Mistress?

[Allronix]

My take on Traya was "Someone must have left their Gom Jabbar and the box of pain in their other robes..."

 

I love to loathe her. I play DSM, and it's so obvious she's really the one in charge of the whole thing. She was the only thing holding that godawful mess of a plot together.

[Masgrtgr]

I feel that the Jedi Order in KOTOR, while arrogant, is, in fact,possibly correct. I personally feel the Order knew about the (insert hidden threat here), and that the Order was possibly right when they warned people to stay away from the Mandalorian Wars, because they knew that those who would go would fall to the Dark Side and turn against the Republic (like Revan...really, blowing up the Republic in order to form a Dark Side Sith Empire that is likely to collaspe as soon as he gets a heart attack? Bah!). They were right when they told the Exile that he is a wound in the Force, and they were right when they ran away from Darth Nihilus.

 

The problem with the Jedi is that nobody believes them. And that is the main thing. Instead, people fall to prey the teachings of Kreia and Revan, thinking that getting rid of the Jedi will lead to a perfect utopia. It won't. The Dark Side may not necessarily be evil , but it is selfish. It is Chaos. Basically, a galaxy run by the Dark Side will cause for killings, mayhem, and madness. The Galactic Empire was run by a Sith and look at how much misery it caused for the people of the Galaxy.

[Eiganjo]

Now, I think the Jedi completly messed up at the mandalorian wars. No action solves no problems. Diplomacy obviously wouldnt have worked, and if the Jedi wouldnt have stopped them, who would have?

I think if the Jedi would have stood behind the war efforts and would have helped those who where falling to the other side, instead of exiling them, a lot of problems could have been avoided.

Sure, war isnt a good thing, and if at all posible it should be avoided, but they already were at war, and they still decided not to send any troops, which is like handing them the Outer Rim worlds on a silver platter.

 

Also, any country (galaxy in this case) which is run by a dictator causes the common people a great deal of misery. It has nothing to do with them being Sith. Fallen Jedi, which is diffrent from Sith, do not really pose a big thread. They are alone,and the way of the darkside do not allow them to gain any numbers bigger than 2.

 

I would just like to see a single conflict that was solved by sitting back and waiting it out.

[Tengu]

Another Dune fan? Cool!

[Hando]

I think that the gray path is most correct. The old Jedi Order has flaws, and I don't think destroying everything in your path is the right way either. I've always thought that the Jedi code must have a paradox somewhere in it that makes it false.

[SilentScope001]

I feel that the Jedi Order in KOTOR, while arrogant, is, in fact,possibly correct. I personally feel the Order knew about the (insert hidden threat here), and that the Order was possibly right when they warned people to stay away from the Mandalorian Wars, because they knew that those who would go would fall to the Dark Side and turn against the Republic (like Revan...really, blowing up the Republic in order to form a Dark Side Sith Empire that is likely to collaspe as soon as he gets a heart attack? Bah!). They were right when they told the Exile that he is a wound in the Force, and they were right when they ran away from Darth Nihilus.

 

The problem with the Jedi is that nobody believes them. And that is the main thing. Instead, people fall to prey the teachings of Kreia and Revan, thinking that getting rid of the Jedi will lead to a perfect utopia. It won't. The Dark Side may not necessarily be evil , but it is selfish. It is Chaos. Basically, a galaxy run by the Dark Side will cause for killings, mayhem, and madness. The Galactic Empire was run by a Sith and look at how much misery it caused for the people of the Galaxy.

 

Somehow, I think I wrote the exact same quote that a long time ago.

[JediMaster12]

But, apart from the reasons I already gave to justify my decision (were I in Windu's boots), there is Mace Windu's own doubts in Shatterpoint: killing (or capturing) Dooku and the CIS leadership would have avoided the Clone Wars, sparing millions (billions?). A matter of the greater good, for the greater numbers.

It is easy to find alternative solutions in hindsight and even criticize. Unfortunately living and fearing what would have been gets you nowhere and leaves you vulnerable on two fronts. It diverts your mind from the current situation leaving you open to attack. That I think is part of the problem with the Old Jedi Order. THey worried so much what couls have happened if they didn't interfere with the Mandalorian Wars and the like, they had open arguments, things that are considered unbecoming of a Jedi.

 

Personally I tend to think of the code as how Barbossa views the pirates code. The code is more like guidelines than actual rules. Even Master Zhar says that the pieces of the code are supposed to be a guideline to making a rational choice. Not a rule.

[SilentScope001]

But, apart from the reasons I already gave to justify my decision (were I in Windu's boots), there is Mace Windu's own doubts in Shatterpoint: killing (or capturing) Dooku and the CIS leadership would have avoided the Clone Wars, sparing millions (billions?). A matter of the greater good, for the greater numbers.

 

I disagree.

 

So, woo, you killed Dooku. That means nothing. You need followers to support the CIS, and Dooku had lots of them. Not just droids, but aliens who were angry at the Republic's corruption, its ineffective Senate, and its dictatoral control. The CIS was supposed to be a liberterain and capitalistic utopia, where aliens rule themselves, not by some Senate far away. It's the forerunners to the Aliens vs. Humans crisis struggle.

 

Take out the leader, but what about the followers? Not to mention that the Trade Federation was already PO afteer Ep. 1, and if you just take out Count Dooku, so what? The Sith took advantage of trends, but nothing said that the trends could have continued unheard of anyway. (Darth Sidious ordered the Trade Federation to do the blockade anyway, so he could still control the CIS, but only by proxy.) Dooku was a smart guy, and taking him out really would be such a shame, but the revolution would have continued without him, if another charamstic leader would lead.

 

In fact, the revolution would be much more deveasting. Count Dooku, due to his personality, became the CIS's equvilant of George Washigntion. This allowed Palpatine to easily kill off the CIS, by murdering Count Dooku. General Grevious was a great general, but Count Dooku provided the ideology, and without Dooku, the CIS would wither away and die. If Dooku was killed before the CIS was formed, then the CIS would find another leader who maybe wouldn't have fallen to the same trap as Darth Tyrannus did to Darth Sidious. Prehaps a CIS revolt would have continued for a long time had Count Dooku did not centeralize power...prehaps the CIS may have even won, had it focused soley on DEFENDING the planets that want to leave the Union rather than focus on building superweapons (who gave the great idea to build the Death Star...oh yeah right, Palpatine. You see, Palpatine has always sabatoged the CIS to help the Republic. Had Count Dooku died, and Palaptine lost full control over the CIS, the whole Star Wars epic would have changed...possibly to a LS "CIS" versus a DS "Republic".)

 

Echoes are powerful, but so are echoes from long ago. The Republic would have not averted a CIS revolt, and you can't really predict where the echoes will take you. Be careful, not hasty.

[Tengu]

Hi JediMaster12

 

You are right on the hindsight thing, of course.

 

But then, again, everything already happened... a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

 

Paraphrasing Yoda: "Impossible to ignore, the past is".

 

 

Cheers

 

It is easy to find alternative solutions in hindsight and even criticize. Unfortunately living and fearing what would have been gets you nowhere and leaves you vulnerable on two fronts. It diverts your mind from the current situation leaving you open to attack. That I think is part of the problem with the Old Jedi Order. THey worried so much what couls have happened if they didn't interfere with the Mandalorian Wars and the like, they had open arguments, things that are considered unbecoming of a Jedi.

 

Personally I tend to think of the code as how Barbossa views the pirates code. The code is more like guidelines than actual rules. Even Master Zhar says that the pieces of the code are supposed to be a guideline to making a rational choice. Not a rule.

[Tengu]

Hi SilentScope001,

 

Thanks for the observations, although -to be honest- I find them somewhat puzzling. And, frankly, I'm not quite sure what your point is (except, of course, that you disagree with me).

 

At a more abstract level, it would appear that you are arguing that individuals (Dooku and company) don't matter (or at most have a minor influence) in the determination of historical events (the Clone Wars). This, to be sure, is a respectable philosophical position. And according to this view, the ultimate causes of historical phenomena are great socio-cultural-economic forces (the trends the Sith took advantage of). I believe this would fit in the idea that "the revolution would have continued without him".

 

If that is your point, I must confess, I cannot disprove it. Better and greater minds than mine have argued around this topic and haven't reached a settlement, how could I possibly hope to settle this? But then, the converse is also true and it's equally hard to prove this point that only great forces/trends matter. Yet, you are welcome to try your luck...

 

Say, if Hitler (individual) had died during WWI, would there have been a WWII (historical event)? Maybe the war was unavoidable (due to the trends/great forces), maybe not. I wouldn't have a clue... too lofty for me, way too lofty.

 

It goes without saying: if this is NOT your point, feel free to disregard the above.

 

At a more concrete and mundane level, though, one does not deal with absolute proof but with mere likelihoods (probabilities, if you like; and subjective ones, at that). At this level, I think I have a reasonably good case. Let's keep in mind that Mace Windu's problem was to select the best alternative, given the information available. And his choices were (A) to do what the AOTC movie shows, or (B) to strike at the CIS leadership, as I propose.

 

Now, trying to seize on what I understood from your message: he knew those people were the leaders of the revolt (because Obi-Wan reported this to the Council). Obviously, that this was the ACTUAL leadership, does not mean there wasn't a POTENTIAL ALTERNATIVE leadership that could replace the ACTUAL one, but then he didn't have any reason to believe there was any. (As a matter of fact: neither had I. Who this alternative leadership blokes are?) In other words: for all Windu knew, he could have decapitated the rebel movement and he did not take advantage of it.

 

In Shatterpoint, as I mentioned previously, he struggled with the guilt he felt over this. And, at the end of the book -it is very suggestive- he reached the conclusion that saving Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan was the "right" thing to do, based on Jedi moral thinking, in spite of leaving the CIS blokes free to cause more harm (I've already argued this point: the greater-good thing). But regardless of what one might think of Windu's moral reasoning: he believed his decision was right in SPITE of practical considerations (as, I guess, is your suggestion). So, he was there and he wasn't concerned with other sources of the revolt... why should WE be concerned?

 

In your post, I'm sure you realize, you state pretty much the same (thus my puzzlement): when Palpy had no more use for the revolt, he just switched if off by sending Anakin to Mustafar to kill the remaining CIS leaders. And the Clone War was over. Notice that the trends you mention could have existed, but by themselves they did not have any immediate consequences then. Likewise with some alternative leadership. Why would things have turned out radically different had Mace Windu striked at the separatist leaders, earlier, on Geonosis?

 

I certainly could go on, trying to explain Windu's decision: maybe Anakin being the Chosen One made saving him a necessity; perhaps Windu didn't want to turn Dooku and his gang into martyrs... But then, I would be second-guessing you. So the best solution, I'd suggest, would be to make your reasoning a bit clearer.

 

Cheers

 

I disagree.

 

(...)

 

Take out the leader, but what about the followers? Not to mention that the Trade Federation was already PO afteer Ep. 1, and if you just take out Count Dooku, so what? The Sith took advantage of trends, but nothing said that the trends could have continued unheard of anyway.

 

(...) Dooku was a smart guy, and taking him out really would be such a shame, but the revolution would have continued without him, if another charamstic leader would lead.

 

(...) Count Dooku, due to his personality, became the CIS's equvilant of George Washigntion.

 

(...) This allowed Palpatine to easily kill off the CIS, by murdering Count Dooku. General Grevious was a great general, but Count Dooku provided the ideology, and without Dooku, the CIS would wither away and die. If Dooku was killed before the CIS was formed, then the CIS would find another leader who maybe wouldn't have fallen to the same trap as Darth Tyrannus did to Darth Sidious.

 

 

(...) Count Dooku, due to his personality, became the CIS's equvilant of George Washigntion.

On a humorous note: gee, I don't think good'ol Georgie boy would have felt too flattered with the Dooku-Washington comparison

[SilentScope001]

At a more abstract level, it would appear that you are arguing that individuals (Dooku and company) don't matter (or at most have a minor influence) in the determination of historical events (the Clone Wars). This, to be sure, is a respectable philosophical position. And according to this view, the ultimate causes of historical phenomena are great socio-cultural-economic forces (the trends the Sith took advantage of). I believe this would fit in the idea that "the revolution would have continued without him".

 

Yep, that's my main point. In fact, I could argue that, as long as the Sith, led by Palpatine, controlled the CIS, they have the power to make sure that the CIS was unable to actually have a chance of winning (they were focused on building super weapons like the Death Star than they were at keeping territory). If the Sith did not intervene, maybe the CIS would have won.

 

Hope that's clear things up.

[Tengu]

Yep, that's my main point. In fact, I could argue that, as long as the Sith, led by Palpatine, controlled the CIS, they have the power to make sure that the CIS was unable to actually have a chance of winning (they were focused on building super weapons like the Death Star than they were at keeping territory). If the Sith did not intervene, maybe the CIS would have won.

 

Hope that's clear things up.

 

It does.

 

But then, it's my turn to say I disagree. That is, I believe individuals do have an influence.

 

Therefore, I stand by my original opinion: an strike against the CIS on Geonosis had all chances to succeed. And its corollary: Windu suxs, totally.

 

I guess, as the popular cliche goes, "we'll have to agree to disagree on this".