Servercat Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 This is a bit of random debate I have with some friends, which was sparked mainly by the clone lab and droid factory sequences in AoTC. So I thought I would bring it here and see what you all think. Our debate is, that it seems rather weird that the CIS could lose the war. Sheer mass of numbers and cheaper logistics would suggest that the CIS could surmount anything the Republic could muster. The clone troopers which appraise the bulk of the Republic's army, while superior fighters in terms of skills and tactics, take an extremely long period of time to grow and train. Even assuming the 'accelerated' maturation techniques could bring a clone from zygote to adult in a year, then proceeded to hand said Clone a blaster and told them to go shoot something. It still makes them vastly more irreplaceable then the ranks amongst the Droid army. That's not even taking into account, the insane cost of growing and feeding millions upon millions of troopers. This isn't even taking into account, that the fact that since the Clones are humans, they are vulnerable to disease, sickness and have to treated for injuries prior and after an engagement. Contrawise, excluding the more advanced Droid models (like Droidekas and IG-100's), the droids can be produced en mass, rapidly.(In say, a month at worst) They require no more maintenance other then to keep them operational. If they are damaged or destroyed in combat, oh well, they can be recycled cheaply for new droids. The only real logical swing factors, it seems to me, are the Jedi and Chancellor(Emperor) Palpatine. The Jedi would undoubtably increase CIS casualties, and operating costs but in the end would eventually get trampled by the vastly superior CIS numbers. The only really thing that would cripple and likely end the CIS ambitions are decapitations of CIS leadership..unfortunately, unless you count an occasional hot headed Padawan or Knight, I don't really see Jedi doing this. *shrug* Which means, that any orders for decapitations would have to come from the main Republic Military, which are under the control of Palpatine. While it was Palpatine’s intention to create war, so that he could gain control, I got the impression he didn’t really care which Army actually won control of the Republic. In fact, it seems more in Sith nature to see which army was the strongest, which is more logically the CIS. But those are just my thoughts. How about you guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Obi-Wan Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 They lost because the "leader" of the CIS is the Supreme Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Didious, which is the "leader" of the Republic. It was a deception, so he could become the ruler of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 The droids lose hands down because they have no leadership in the field. No leadership = fail. They did have Grevious who started turning the tables, but he was put in command too late in the war for him to win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk47 Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 the chancellor should have kept the droid army it was winning aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirLancelot Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 The clones are simply superior soldiers. They were the pinnacle of military perfection in terms of their training and development. Not to mention, clonetroopers could think creatively, unlike droids, who for the most part, went off a series of preprogrammed instructions. Also, total reliance on a central command entity was a liabilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk47 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant Your post fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 it was winning the war they said it themselfs and if the chancellor told dooku to get angry and kill them both and not taunt them he wood have killed themand they could have won the battle over courcant I agree with TK, try and make some sense next time. Palpatine and Dooku created the Clone Wars, Sidious was in charge of the CIS and Palpatine was in charge of the Republic. It wasn't a real war and the Army of the Republic were always going to win, how could you possibly not have realised this Servercat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servercat Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 As a plot point, we always knew the Clones would win. They had to. The CIS couldn't win at the end of Episode 3...unless the Storm troopers in 4-6 were secretly droids ^_^ What am I talking about, is the vast outclassing of the CIS versus the Clones. Lets look at the advantages of each Clones: 1. More flexible and can innovate with more frequency and success. 2. Better Leadership, (mainly costing of the Jedi on the ground fighting along side of them). Droids: 1. Vastly Superior Numbers 2. Greater Coordination and ability to adapt to changes on a widespread level faster then Clones 3. Superior Armament 4. Superior Logistics (Troopers are cheaper. Do not require food, or aid. Meaning more troopers and ammunition per deployment) 5. Ranks can be replenished quickly. Even with the great benefits of the Jedi, the Droids have the clear advantage. They are more heavily armed, overwhelming numbers, and superior logistics. The only true logical factor in how the CIS could lose (aside from making the plot work ^_^) is the Sith i.e. Palpatine. But here in lies the problem. Palpatine's goal is to gain control of the 'republic' (read Galaxy) and destroy the Jedi. It doesn't really matter which army he supports, he would still gain control, no matter who wins. The Clones win, he gains the respect and love of the Senate and they convert into the Empire. The CIS wins, he gains control of the dominant military and economic force in the Galaxy. It's win/win scenario for Palpatine. So it seems to me, at least so far, that the only reason the CIS loses is merely to fulfil plot points for the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 You're missing the fundemental part, he has to convert Anakin. Being the leader of the seperatists, he couldn't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servercat Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 True enough, but that's a plot reason. I bet given a little time and energy he could have done it even as leader of the CIS. It would merely be a matter of saying that the Republic and Jedi had fallen from the proper path and the Seperatists were the true peacemakers of the Galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Except Anakin is loyal to the Republic that saved him. That's why he follows Palpatine, he believes Palpatine is protecting the republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 The Kaminoan stated that the Clones were "...vastly superior to Droids." The Droids were mindless, they didn't have any logic at all, they relied on numbers because more Droids would be destroyed in a battle. Palpatine created the CIS, he is in control of everything, he would win either way?! The Clones were dominant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servercat Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 I think that the Kaminion would have said that regardless ^_^ Backing their product The Droids are no more innovative, then their programming and the orbiting controller(s). It doesn't make them mindless or stupid, just means they lack creativity. In addition to their mass numbers, we see the droids absorb more damage then a clone. They take 2 or 3 direct blaster hits, limb's get hacked off and they still continue firing with Star Wars-esque accuracy. ^_^ Same can't be said about the Clones. While the basic Clone Troopers and the Roger-Roger's are equivilantly armed blaster wise, the speciality Droids are more heavily armed/armored and more capable then any Clone. A Solo Droideka can even go toe to toe with a Jedi, and even has a great chance of winning the fight. What clone variation can say the same? Which in lies the CIS's greatest asset. They can match the best the Republic has, and can replace their loses faster and cheaper then the Republic. It takes years to replace even a lowly Padawan, and the CIS can create an equivilant force in month or more. And to rub salt on the wound, it wouldn't cost the CIS anymore then the fund it takes to create an automated factory like we see in Ep.2. On a good moon/planet said factory could be totatly self suffienct. Much like the factory, you learn about in the Vader's Fist journal's in SW:BF2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 What clone variation can say the same? ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos. Look you're obviously wrong, the films and Databank make this clear. The Grand army of the Republic are Elite Troopers, clones of the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy, the CIS are mindless... drones. The Clone Troopers were Far superior to the battle droid armies of the era... Unlike the Clones, even the Super Battle Droids, ...like their inferior predecessors, have very rudimentary programming and are poor at formulating attack plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriphyn Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Your post fails. Easy guys, our friend here has only just turned 10! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I can't believe how many really young people are on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedak Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 10?! He did not have any spelling errors (for what I saw) and that is good for 10. Also how do you know he is 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 10?! He did not have any spelling errors (for what I saw) and that is good for 10. Also how do you know he is 10? HK47 is who he was talking about, he made a few mistakes and his post didn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedak Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Thats true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Except Anakin is loyal to the Republic that saved him. That's why he follows Palpatine, he believes Palpatine is protecting the republic. You know, that always bugged me. The Jedi were the ones who saved him, yet look what he does to show gratitude. ): He fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoiuyWired Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Ok, its not which army is going to win, its which army the Sith WANTS to be the winner. Palpy is a pro-human person, and CIS is non-human oriented in terms of ownership and major sponsors. Obviously palpy will want the clones to win instead. Also defeating the CIS would make great media work concerning non-human aliens are evil, rallying more "good human" to palpy's side. It really is that simple. Though I think Doku may actually WANT to win the war and take the Throne by himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 I think there are several reasons why Palpatine would want the Republic to prevail, rather than the CIS. One is that the Republic has a pre-existing bureaucracy in place to control the galaxy. It is much easier to phase this out in favor a more direct method (grand moffs, moffs, etc). Another is that he wanted the popular support of the people. If he gains control of the Republic by force (CIS victory), then the galaxy will be a conquered people, who are more likely to lash out in rebellion. By thwarting the enemy (Republic victory), he becomes a hero, and the general populace actually want him to rule the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redtech Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Well, this is Star Wars, I mean, the Iraqi insurgency could do better. Ultimately, Grievous ended up with a powerful fleet over a poorly defended coruscant, now, if I was in his shoes, I'd have nuked it. No leadership=end of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 The only person in the CIS who knew Palpatine was Sidious was Dooku, I don't believe any other droid/general knew. Therefore, I don't know why Grievous DIDN'T inflict more damage on Coruscant. Sure, Dooku might have said "Don't do it," but after Dooku died, I'd get mad and order all Turbolasers to fire on the planet. Heck, he could have even fired on the Jedi Temple if he didn't want to REALLY disobey the commander. Dooku wouldn't be able to object; he was a Sith, and it would have looked REALLY suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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