Saber system suggestions

[Tanqexe]

Hi there, I'm pretty new to OJP but I've been testing out the sabering system here and am enjoying 0.0.8.

 

When I'm going 2+ bots against myself, aside from parrying, I try to swing a power fake to break away from a defensive position, but oftentimes my saber just stops and gets "stuck" midswing because another bot's saber just happens to be there. Is that supposed to happen because that registered as a bounce? It gets really frustrating because due to that, I have to beat a retreat due to my inability to attack. I remember reading somewhere that to avoid being frozen, attacking from another direction will help, but it doesn't.

 

For the running issue, maybe make it do a slow but significant FP/DP drain the longer one runs? Kind of like the sprint meter back in the days of Return of Castle Wolfenstein. Alternatively you can increase chance of a bounce from a normal hit/parry or a knockdown from an executed power fake -- in reality, a running person wouldn't have as good a solid footing as a person in the ready position or a slowly walking person, and they'd be susceptible to being knocked off balance by a particularly strong attack.

[razorace]

Really, cool! Does that mean we can play with them too?!

Yep. It might cause minor lag issues with animation code that might be changed on my side, but hasn't been done in the client yet, but it should work as well as JA+ does.

 

Hi there, I'm pretty new to OJP but I've been testing out the sabering system here and am enjoying 0.0.8.

Hi! Thank you for contributing your feedback. It's really appreciated.

 

When I'm going 2+ bots against myself, aside from parrying, I try to swing a power fake to break away from a defensive position, but oftentimes my saber just stops and gets "stuck" midswing because another bot's saber just happens to be there. Is that supposed to happen because that registered as a bounce? It gets really frustrating because due to that, I have to beat a retreat due to my inability to attack. I remember reading somewhere that to avoid being frozen, attacking from another direction will help, but it doesn't.

The message about attacking from different directions is referring to the people that are ganging up on a player and not the single duelist. The single duelist WANTS to have both his opponents in front of him since A) They're much more likely to bounce their sabers off each other and B) When facing both opponents your parries will affect both players at the same time (and give you a chance to attack).

 

For the running issue, maybe make it do a slow but significant FP/DP drain the longer one runs? Kind of like the sprint meter back in the days of Return of Castle Wolfenstein. Alternatively you can increase chance of a bounce from a normal hit/parry or a knockdown from an executed power fake -- in reality, a running person wouldn't have as good a solid footing as a person in the ready position or a slowly walking person, and they'd be susceptible to being knocked off balance by a particularly strong attack.

Well, my original design had running cost fatigue points, but Ytmh talked me out of it. As is, a player that is running is twice as likely to be knockdowned or stunned during a mishap roll. I'm also implimenting it so that the slow bounce protection doesn't for defenders that are running.

[JRHockney*]

Hold on. They were doing ok without parrying at all?

 

Oh, I didn't see this post. Yeah there where doing pretty well just running and swing spamming until I wised up and started parrying them more. Even then, it was hard to get a good parry on them because they where running and swinging randomly and they did a lot of DP damage before they ran out of FP. This is why I suggested such extreme measures to stop this from happening.

 

I kind of like Tanqexe's idea about having power fakes knock runners off their feet (in that new animatio) also. It's fairly logical and realistic. We could even implement that running dual knockbasck collison this way!!! (hehe) But over all I think it would just make sense and stop the run spamming from happening again.

 

Yep. It might cause minor lag issues with animation code that might be changed on my side, but hasn't been done in the client yet, but it should work as well as JA+ does.

 

Hehe! Awsome!

 

When I'm going 2+ bots against myself, aside from parrying, I try to swing a power fake to break away from a defensive position, but oftentimes my saber just stops and gets "stuck" midswing because another bot's saber just happens to be there. Is that supposed to happen because that registered as a bounce? It gets really frustrating because due to that, I have to beat a retreat due to my inability to attack. I remember reading somewhere that to avoid being frozen, attacking from another direction will help, but it doesn't.

 

Hmmmm, it sounds alot like you got slow-bounce parried, which is what happens when you get parried and have more than 50% DP. Other than that, I'm not sure. Maybe they swang and hit your attack fake, which is suppose to be able to stop it. Attack an attack fake with a regular swing is suppose to stop the the attack fake somehow. I forget how though.

[razorace]

I've noticed that players seem to be slow bouncing when they shouldn't be in the last version. I think I didn't do my logic for removing the slow bounce flag correctly. I'll fix that for the next time.

[JRHockney*]

Well, I'm bored, so I think I'll make up a check list of things that saber system stuff that should be added or fixed in the next version of enhanced or an upcoming version (or even online!!). This also might help you keep track of whats been fixed and what hasn't.

 

1. Implementing the changes we talked about to the single saber styles and especially the staff and dual.

 

2. Add the kick and hiltbash absorbing backflip.

 

3. Add whatever you have in mind for the more damaging back hits.

 

4. Make the red and desann DFA's do something! If they already do something, make them do more.

 

5. Do something to penalize running alot more. I still really like Tanqexe's idea about attack fakes knocking down runners because a lot can be done with it (like the dual collision knockdown). This along side your idea of restricting slow bounce for them should fix it well.

 

6. Fix whatever you were talking about in the last post! LOL!

 

7. If it can get done:

Suggestion for the hitting slow bounce mishaps: Low and side swings in slow bounce should get disarmed (it looks really cool when it happens like this!) High swings in slowbounce get knocked down, and hitting it with power fake stuns and disarms! Also, back hits should cost more DP so people can't turn away in slow bounce (I already mentioned this, but Its a good idea and just reminding).

I still think this is a good idea, and i'd like to add something to it: Hitting slow-bounce with a lunge causes stuns, and any other special move causes stun/disarm at the same time. I actually hit a high slow bounce with a flip attack today!!

 

8. Maybe try that basic fake attack idea (maybe)

 

9. (down the road) Allow players to "empower" one of their special moves causing more DP loss and "stunnify (to make up a word)" another special move to make it cause slow bounces and stuns. The harder to use specials would do more DP damage. You could make this feature accessable by the prompt until you can make a menu for it.

 

10. Make the disarm probability for single handed styles higher, unless you've thought of a good reason not to.

 

11. (for way down the road) Make a saber combat customization menu where you have a certain number of points to spend on certain combat advantages like longer slow-bounce, stun, or mishap parrying, stronger basic attacks, stronger attack fakes, stronger specials, a stunning special, a little fast DP or FP gain, less mishap probability, and what ever else we can think of.

 

12. Immunity to lightning and grip when saber is out except for when in a mishap, slow bounce, running or jumping. This should be a good temporary fix to this kind of spamming. These kinds of spammer tend to ruin the fun for other dualers.

 

13. You mentioned that getting hit when disarmed (and maybe in general when dodge is activated) should be made 40% DP damage or so. Good idea.

 

OK thats all for now.

[JRHockney*]

Good test run!! Scratch number 3 and put or all of number 5.!

[razorace]

The slow bounce hit mishaps idea is interesting, but I'm a bit concerned that it might end up ending too scripted/bland if certain moves are directly linked to certain outcomes.

[JRHockney*]

The slow bounce hit mishaps idea is interesting, but I'm a bit concerned that it might end up ending too scripted/bland if certain moves are directly linked to certain outcomes.

 

Well, just like in real life, certain moves have certain disadvantages. Sometimes solid is better than random. There will still be some randomness after 50% DP or FP. Btw, parried special moves should probably count as high moves in this situation.

 

To me, complete randomness is more annoying than anything because you can't plan out your next move if you don't know the outcome of the first move. For example: If I know its going to be a stun, I can plan on using special moves, attack fakes, or just swating, but if its disarm or knockdown, I have to plan around possible kicks, punches, or getup attacks.

[Tanqexe]

Something I noticed while on a server: When I saberlocked with Vruki yesterday and the server decided to change maps, the game froze up and I had to rejoin the server. Has anyone had this kind of problem (doesn't have to involve saber-locking)?

 

For the Cyan style, when I transition from parry mode to ready stance, sometimes the animation for the transition goes really, really slowly, and I end up being in the hasso stance before returning to the fencer ready position. Kinda weird, and it makes sabering sometimes difficult when you want to counter-swing at that moment.

 

I think it'd be nice to also have some kind of indicator to show that you're making successful parries. Maybe your cursor changes into the force icon (or something involving a changing cursor) after a successful parry?

[JRHockney*]

Something I noticed while on a server: When I saberlocked with Vruki yesterday and the server decided to change maps, the game froze up and I had to rejoin the server. Has anyone had this kind of problem (doesn't have to involve saber-locking)?

 

not to my memory. Of course I don't saber lock that often.

 

For the Cyan style, when I transition from parry mode to ready stance, sometimes the animation for the transition goes really, really slowly, and I end up being in the hasso stance before returning to the fencer ready position. Kinda weird, and it makes sabering sometimes difficult when you want to counter-swing at that moment.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by the "Cyan style" but I think I know what you're talking about. I've noticed sometimes being frozen in a return stance for a second after I think the slow bounce is over. This could just because I was parried not far from where the return animation goes back to normal and its not done with the slow bounce before it returns, but it does seem a little longer than usual.

 

I think it'd be nice to also have some kind of indicator to show that you're making successful parries. Maybe your cursor changes into the force icon (or something involving a changing cursor) after a successful parry?

 

Not a bad idea, but the more detailed the indicator, the longer it's likely to take to implement.

[razorace]

Yeah, the slow return animation is due to an apprenent bug in the slow bounce flag removal code. It will be fixed in the next release.

 

As a parrying icon, I suppose we could have one but the knockaway animations are pretty specific if you know what you're looking for.

[JRHockney*]

I just thought of something that I forgot to add to the list:

 

13. You mentioned that getting hit when disarmed (and maybe in general when dodge is activated) should be made 40% DP damage or so.

 

I like this idea and I'll add it to the list as well.

 

Also, I edited and gave another reason for the specific mishap slow bounce hitting idea in my second to last post that you might want to look at.

[Tanqexe]

I was thinking about the parry icon as an option that can be turned on/off for people unfamiliar with the mod who aren't sure if they are parrying correctly. I can pick up the cues most of the time, but I can see how it's a bit hard to sometimes tell especially when your opponent is above 70% DP/FP.

 

Is there any reason to not use a more active parrying scheme by initiating fakes in the direction of the swing? Autoblock can still work (unless Dodge activates from a body hit), but an active parry with the action button would make both parties in combat work more for their gains.

[razorace]

mmmm, I think that we might just want to leave it as an observable behavior by the actual player. If they can't pick it up on their own, they'll just need to learn. Besides, we don't really want to over complicate the hud with too many icons and such.

 

As for the parrying, the reason why we don't do that is because it would be TOO difficult for the defender.

[JRHockney*]

Bug report: when I'm knocked down, and hand spring backwards while my enemy's in front of me, he gets knocked down somehow!

 

Question: does the lunge have a parry direction? If it don't it should be forward (w) and this parry should get no slow bounce protection because its harder to do.

 

Idea: Make the lunge and other specials cause a mishap if they hit a person attack faking (but the person doing the attack fake has to be commetted to a full swing). The person doing the attack fake can also fake an attack fake (as I just notice) and press a w to parry the lunge (only the lunge because its the easest to hit with).

 

This might add some more depth in strategy in attacking and faking (or in this case; 'luring").

 

I think we should also start thinking along the lines of cool little exploits such as this in our idea making to increase the system's overall complexity.

[razorace]

Lunge should be parryed by moving into it (fwd).

 

hmmm, you got a point about the more complicated situations. I'll think about it.

[JRHockney*]

This might be off topic, I don't want to start a new thread since nobody but you (Razor) knows what I'm talking about.

 

Well, I tried the new changes with the weapons as you know, and I must say, You better have something EXTRAORDINARY planned in terms of balance if you think you can give gunners both dodge and Extremely pimped out guns!!! Now that the basic blaster shoots faster, I not even sure that even allow dodge for IT is balanced, much less the heavier weapons.

 

This might be the MB2 side of me talking, but gunners should not get dodge especially with these changes! Any gunner who can competently switch to saber, jump 20 feet out of the way, or just move and shoot well (like they do in MB2, with out pimped out guns, dodge, or 20 foot jump) will not have a problem killing jedi. If you have a plan to balance this, I sincerely hope its a good one, otherwise this mod will turn into a gunner's paradise and a jedi's hell.

[razorace]

It's not my intention to give the gunners an unfair advantage over jedi. In fact, the changes have been made to make things realistic and fair for everyone.

 

However, this is a pretty large puzzle that I'm having to put together piece-by-peice so sometimes things fall thru the cracks. In this case, the disruptor values that I was given by our gracious contributor Lance do appear to be overpowered, especially since I haven't implimented dodge for it yet AND because the TABBots can put a sniper shot in your center mass from across the map.

 

Secondly, I know that gunners have too much DP at the moment. The problem is that players are gifted with the same force powers/attributes as they are when they're using a saber.

 

So until we fix this, we're practically dealing with yoda vs sidious...with blasters. However, I don't think this should be fixed by just nerfing the hell out of DP costs whenever a player is using a weapon. In most cases this is unrealistic (except for bulky heavy weapons).

 

Some of the changes are working. Jedi are practically immune to blaster bolts when they can block them. Jedi can effectively reflect those attacks back at their attacker without much effort. Jedi can end a gunner's day pretty quickly with 3 or less quick swipes, which is probably about how much it takes in basejka (baring special moves).

Gunners have better, more realistic guns that look and feel more like they do in the movies. Gunners aren't competely helpless vs jedi if they are smart.

 

Possible Improvements:

- I'm going to restore the original fire time settings for the sniper rifle. This is a given. Right now, it's firing faster and does more damage than the blasters...which isn't right.

- I'm also going to nerf the disruptor more by either reducing the damage level or by increasing the fire time. It's not reasonable for a Star Wars weapon to be more accurate, faster, and deadly than a standard blaster rifle.

- Make Body Dodges work for disruptors.

[razorace]

FYI, I'm running the latest OJP Enhanced code, and the weapon system we're discussing on the code server right now. Players can join using the latest OJP Enhanced release (0.0.8).

[JRHockney*]

I just had another sabersystem idea. Remember how you use to be able to parry when you swang? ITt was obviously very cheap and spammable, but it did add a faster pace to the saber combat it seems.

 

I suggest making it so that if you get hit while moving in the right parry direction and while swinging, you dont parry the hit, but you do a quick block animation for the hit and lose no DP (or very little) and swing again quickly. Since the saber is already airborne, the block transitions might also look even more natural this way. Real parrying would still be done the same way without swinging (or maybe still within a basic fake).

 

Hits in general could be made to cause more DP loss (in order to make fights not drag on too long) if this feature was added and the saber combat would become even more intense than it already is. You would not be able to parry when you are in a slow bounce, but you could still block it for no DP loss by moving in the right parry direction.

 

I've had ideas similar to this in the past, but I think it might work out very well with the way the system has come along.

[razorace]

hmmm, I don't know. With the current state of the saber system, I don't think we need to add something like this since hitting another attacking saber while in an attack simply makes both players bounce.

 

As such, this would only apply if one of the attackers happens to land an attack on the actual player (or be moving the saber close enough for a bbox block). This is the the primary process for forcing one player to defend while another attacks, I don't think we should make easier for that defending player to be able to attack again without parrying or getting away from the saber slicing onslaught.

[Sushi_CW]

Thanks for the response earlier. Fair enough: too much randomness can get frustrating, especially when playing over a network. I guess the role player in me was coming out and wanted to roll some virtual d20 dice.

 

I don't understand everything about the OJPE sabersystem (or everything about standard JA sabering either). Over a network, it beats base JA hands down, at least in pure dueling. It's more intense, there is more saber contact, and it just plain looks better. Most of the time. At any rate, there are certain situations I'd like to understand better. I'm going to list them, as well as what I would like to see happen in each situation (my opinion only, of course). Think of it as a wish list... I'm very pleased with how much of it OJPE successfully addresses.

 

Assume players A and B.

 

1. A attacks, B defends passively/attempts parry and fails

B should block the attack, and lose some DP. If A continues to attack and B continues to defend passively, A should be able to beat down B's defenses and score a kill after a short time. A should be able to continue attacking B with multiple swings, similar to behavior in JA single player (where one blocked attack can be quickly transitioned into another). If A attacks like this, B should have a hard time counterattacking, with limited time to start a swing of his own before being forced into a block again. Fast styles should have a better chance of being able to start a counterattack than slow styles.

 

2. A attacks, B successfully parries.

This is the main way for momentum to shift. A is forced to recover, while B gets enough time to launch a counterattack.

 

3. A and B attack at the same time, sabers collide.

Both A and B are bounced, recover a bit before being able to attack again. Alternately, a saber lock could occur.

 

4. A and B attack at the same time, sabers don't collide.

Let's say A's attack gets there first. If B is just starting the attack, B can still block. If B is fairly committed to the attack already, B is forced to dodge.

 

5. Saber lock:

Unless the lock is broken early, the loser should die.

 

6. A hits B when B is mid-bounce:

Whatever it is, it should cost a lot of DP. I think I would actually prefer a block that costs a lot of DP to a dodge (it would look better IMO) but a dodge does the trick.

 

7. A attacks B when B is disarmed:

B should die fast. Maybe one or two dodges if DP is pretty full.

 

8. A attacks B when B's back is turned:

This should be a dodge situation, not a block situation. I know there are technical difficulties with this, but that's why this is a wish list. If you can work around them in a reliable way, it would be awesome.

 

9. A attacks B when B is on the ground:

A successful finishing stab should be death, but other contact should be dodgeable (although possibly at an increased cost).

 

How I want to see styles:

Lighter styles recover quicker in bounce situations, but do less DP damage. Heavier styles, obviously, take longer to recover, but do more damage when they can land a hit. Staff should be easy to defend with but harder to attack, with little chance of disarm. Dual should cause oodles of damage but cost a lot in terms of FP and should be relatively easy to disarm.

 

Force powers:

Most of them should stay as they are.

Protect should cut DP costs.

Heal should repair both health and DP.

Blocking lightning with the saber should cost DP.

Drain recharges your DP and health with their FP.

Rage works similar to how it does now, but drains DP slowly as well as health.

 

Again, I am very pleased overall with OJPE... it's a blast, and a promising work in progress. Thank you!

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Sushi_CW,

 

WOW! A nicely detailed and well thought out write up, and coming from me, that's a major compliment!

 

I honestly can't attest to the accuracy of all of your observations, but if they're accurate, then I vote for including them into the OJP E Manual. Their deceptive "simplicity" and clarity is a real boon for those who are trying to learn how to maximize their OJP E experience.

 

I'm an art instructor, and I know good instruction when I see it: in my book, your write up qualifies as "good instruction" via a sound method of delivery.

 

Now it's really time for me to go to bed.

 

Yours,

 

Kyle

March 1, 2006

 

 

.

[JRHockney*]

Heres some of the ideas that you liked tonight:

 

1. allow running and swing hits when you are hitting at a slow bounce and dont remove slow bounce protection for such a hit.

 

2. Remove the possiblity of parrying when running

 

3. get rid of stun as a slow bounce conversion unless they hit it with a special move. Disarms should occur when you hit a low swung slowbounce and knock downs when you hit a high swung slowbounce.

 

4. Basic fakes should not be able to do slow bounce conversions, it has to be a full swing hitting the slow bounce. This should prevent weird slow bounce hits.

 

5. Create a cvar that disables dodge and lowers the DP/FP threshold for mishaps greatly or just make a cvar that adjusts mishap threholds period. (this idea should be considered with idea 3. because stuns = death in this setting).

[Tapela]

Stupid ads on the side keep crashing my IE browser for some reason so i'm quick replying this and writing up my post for the third time. Sorry for not quoting.

 

 

Sushi_CW I disagree with a few of your ideas in favor of gameplay, however i agree with some of it too. Firstly I definitely disagree with disarmed players being killed instantly, right now its enough of an advantage to get a good amount of dp damage. It forces the player who mishaped into retreating and gives you an opening to attack them without penalty. I disagree with the saberlocks being one hit kill, to me its too random and will often kill you even if you're doing good and happen to get in a saberlock. Who ever tortures their mouse button more is not my idea of skill, but it should give an advantage I suppose, some dp damage or footing. Really though I think keshire had it right with some of his flashy saberlock animations that were intended as eye candy. Styles should be left alone in my opinion, I like the way Razorace has them now. I don't think attributes really belong on them. Speaking of keshire animations if Razorace adds the block ones back it will have a back block, which should take x2 dp if he implements that too and I think he said he was.

 

I do however agree with the lethal ability to kill your opponent if the downwards stab animation connects and they cant get up in time. However it should only be that move only, I view it as a way to end a duel for advanced players who use kick while the opponent is stunned to insure he or she don't get up.

 

Finally for force powers I agree and disagree with a few things, mainly I have my own ideas on how Razor could implement that I might post later on if no one minds . But as an example for force heal :

 

Rank 1) Increases DP or FP regeneration by 10%. Grants minor health regeneration.

 

Rank 2) Increases DP or FP regeneration by 15%. Grants health regeneration.

 

Rank 3) Increases DP or FP regeneration by 25%. Grants major health regeneration.

 

While using force heal the player would have to be standing still or walking. If he or she runs the trance the player is in would be broken abruptly. The players saber will be deactivated and if activated the trance would break. If razor felt that 25% wasnt enough he could make it stack with the meditation that you can bind currently in OJP to give advanced FP regeneration at the risk of being alot more vulnerable to attacks (x2 dp cost of a normal hit, x4 of a fake)