Saber system suggestions

[Darth Cariss]

How about: up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start!!! Oh, wait. Thats Contra! LOL

 

I actually think that'd be one of the most awesome things ever. You'd have to change B and A to Attack1 and Attack2 though, and Start to "Use", most likely.

[Vruki Salet]

Just "up up down left right left right" would be plenty thank you.

[JRHockney*]

While a "tip of the hat" to NES Contra would be a very cool thing, I just dont think its going to happen. I mean, this would be near impossible to pull off with this saberlock suggestion the way I have it suggested.

 

It might work to do maybe the old red kata or something because it would take long enough to pull off, be seen a mile away, and be stoppable with a swing before it starts, but Razor's already said he doesn't want any static combos in this system. I must say though, it would be a funny addition! And show the JKA community that OJP has a sense of humor! LOL! But this would probably take forever to code and the time should be spent on more important additions.

[razorace]

Is there a chance to have the said server up more frequently, and for longer periods of time?

It's been up pretty consistantly for the last couple of weeks. I have occasionally turned it off for other uses but it's been up for a vast majority of the time.

 

I have one question of concern regarding the setting of the fps to 100: is there any relation between setting the bots' fps and how quickly my computer's monitor is refreshed? The reason why I ask is that I know that the maximum safe fps setting for my monitor is 85, and that trying to run it past that figure can lead to some pretty unhappy consequences. Does the bot_fps influence the monitor's refresh settings in any way?

The sv_fps is the fps for the world updates, not just the bots. Anyway, no, it won't affect your monitor refresh setting since the world updates have nothing to do with the rendering of the images on your screen.

 

But this would probably take forever to code and the time should be spent on more important additions.

Right. This is due to there being no combo button system in JKA. All moves are done directly from the user's current input since input isn't saved over time.

[JRHockney*]

I was fighting the new multistyle bots today and I came to a realization and I wonder if anyone feels the same way:

 

Aqua is too underpowered compared to the other styles. Its not neccessarily that it doesnt do enough damage, but it seems to be the way it hits or swings. It just seems to get beaten down. I suggest two possible fixes:

 

1. Speed it up a bit more.

or

2. allow it to reduce damage of incomming attacks if you are pressing the right parry direction when you are swinging and get hit. This would make this style a great defending style and kind of makes sense with a one handed fencing style. I'm not sure how many reduction points is fair though.

or

3. I know you hate any idea that has to do with targeting, Razor, but its such a cool idea. Add a few extra points of damage for targeting your opponent when you hit. Allowing one style to do this does not turn this game into promod. Maybe if we ever add an option to buy different abilities, this could be one of them.

 

Btw, Maxstate may be right about blue being overpowered. Im not sure though. Purple seems just as hard to fight. Anyways, bots using different styles is great because you can see the overall balance much better.

[Maxstate]

I was fighting the new multistyle bots today and I came to a realization and I wonder if anyone feels the same way:

 

Aqua is too underpowered compared to the other styles. Its not neccessarily that it doesnt do enough damage, but it seems to be the way it hits or swings. It just seems to get beaten down. I suggest two possible fixes:

 

1. Speed it up a bit more.

or

2. allow it to reduce damage of incomming attacks if you are pressing the right parry direction when you are swinging and get hit. This would make this style a great defending style and kind of makes sense with a one handed fencing style. I'm not sure how many reduction points is fair though.

or

3. I know you hate any idea that has to do with targeting, Razor, but its such a cool idea. Add a few extra points of damage for targeting your opponent when you hit. Allowing one style to do this does not turn this game into promod. Maybe if we ever add an option to buy different abilities, this could be one of them.

 

Btw, Maxstate may be right about blue being overpowered. Im not sure though. Purple seems just as hard to fight. Anyways, bots using different styles is great because you can see the overall balance much better.

 

Purple still has larger and slower windups and cooldowns, blue users only have to slightly move their arm to the left to do the same damage as someone winding up his saber with both hands.

[JRHockney*]

I just had an idea to make the attack fake more realistic, very useful, but balanced. This might only be made this way for the next build because me and razor had other ideas, but it would still be worth it:

 

1. Make the attack fake only parryable by attack parries and swings, but if you press the correct parry direction for normal swing, you will reduce the damage of the hit.

 

2. When an attack fake hits, it causes a block animation that is the time length of the old block animation (thus making it useful for starting combos.)

 

3. If you hit a person running with an attack fake, they get slow bounced unless they press the proper parry direction.

 

Yeah, this would definitely be more realistic. It also wouldn't be too far of a stretch from the way it was in 0.0.9, which alot of people are use to at the moment.

 

Since it is hard to remember everything that needs to be done when it comes time, I have a priority list of things that I would personally like done before 0.1.0 (not in order of importance):

 

1. balance blue style somehow.

 

2. Change the attack fake to how it is above.

 

3. Possibly make force powers no longer workable from behind. Its almost impossible to win two on one when someone starts spamming them.

 

4. Do something different with the saber lock. I suggest the idea I had before for this unless someone has a better one.

 

5. Fix the bots in the coop mode so they do full swings and maybe behave a bit more like tabbots. A few more maps might be nice too.

 

6. Get rid of the 2 FP cost for the staff and maybe dual. I just dont think the staff needs it anymore. This may just require more testing in general, but the next build should help us make final decisions about those.

 

7. Enable people in a regular slow bounce to be able to move very slowly (but not in heavy bounce). Me and razor talked about doing it like this to make regular slow bounces more like reversals than stuns.

 

8. If any work has been done on adding keshires blocking anims, now would probably be a good time to add them. If not, nevermind.

 

9. Port the MB2 saber trail code. They really make the combat look so much smoother and would really help enhanced.

 

Thats probably more than enough, but they'll give us a direction for the next build when razor comes back.n Anyone else want anything changed or fixed?

[Sushi_CW]

I think I like where you're going with attack fakes, although I'm a bit worried that they will get out of balance and get spammed. Reduced damage for doing a parry move on an attack fake could work. But why use the longer block anim? I like the fact that landing an attack fake causes a bounce or slowbounce. We could keep it that way, I think. That gives us three scenarios:

 

1) Attacker attacks with attack fake and defender fails to parry in any way. Defender is bounced/slowbounced and loses a bit more DP than usual.

 

2) Attacker attacks with attack fake and defender does a correct directional parry. Defender loses some DP, but less, and blocks normally.

 

3) Attacker attacks with attack fake and defender either does an attack parry or hits the attacker's blade. Attacker is parried and bounced/slowbounced, preferably slightly worse than if parried in a normal attack.

 

That's my take on what you're suggesting. Take it for what it's worth. I think I would also like to see the FP cost for attack fakes raised a bit to keep them from being overused...attack fake spammers should run out of FP fairly quickly.

 

Generally speaking, I'm also not sure that we need anything new to help "start combos." They're generally quite doable as-is, IMO.

As a side question of my own: to make combos work, do you have to switch directions exactly as the saber hits or can you do it anytime before? I suspect the latter, but want to be sure. If it ISN'T the latter, it should be, since lag makes it almost impossible to exactly time impacts.

 

I like the idea of making it so that you can move a bit on regular bounces. It would also have the advantage of making it easier to tell normal and slow bounces apart. I STILL have a hard time knowing until the animation is mostly over.

 

As far as the force-powers-in-back go, is there any chance of making the "back" area smaller? What if instead of being the back 180 degrees, it was only the back 120 or back 90? That would prevent situations where players get just enough to your side to get over the 180 degree border and hit you... they would have to get all the way behind.

 

And yes, please fix the saberlocks! At this point I don't care what gets done, but I'd like to see something...anything! Jon and I have both suggested fairly complicated ideas, but in the meantime I suggest something simple like the loser losing a good chunk of DP and getting mishaped. The more elaborate stuff can wait.

 

Also, can we get the lunge to be parryable even while in a slowbounce? Please?

 

Finally, when can we get the code server back?

[JRHockney*]

I think I like where you're going with attack fakes, although I'm a bit worried that they will get out of balance and get spammed. Reduced damage for doing a parry move on an attack fake could work. But why use the longer block anim? I like the fact that landing an attack fake causes a bounce or slowbounce. We could keep it that way, I think. That gives us three scenarios:

 

1) Attacker attacks with attack fake and defender fails to parry in any way. Defender is bounced/slowbounced and loses a bit more DP than usual.

 

2) Attacker attacks with attack fake and defender does a correct directional parry. Defender loses some DP, but less, and blocks normally.

 

3) Attacker attacks with attack fake and defender either does an attack parry or hits the attacker's blade. Attacker is parried and bounced/slowbounced, preferably slightly worse than if parried in a normal attack.

 

Hmm, well that would work too, but I the reason razor made it this way to begin with was to have a parry breaker move. The reason I suggested it this way is to follow that line of thinking. And The reason I suggest the longer anim is to make combos easier because while they're definitely doable, they are a bit harder than 0.0.9.

 

Also, can we get the lunge to be parryable even while in a slowbounce? Please?

 

Believe me, I tried to get razor to do that but he wouldn't go for it (probably because he didnt have much time to work on it). He did however lower the damage of lunges to about the damage of an attack fake, and this seems pretty reasonable because you could also do an attack fake if your fast enough.

 

And yes, please fix the saberlocks! At this point I don't care what gets done, but I'd like to see something...anything! Jon and I have both suggested fairly complicated ideas, but in the meantime I suggest something simple like the loser losing a good chunk of DP and getting mishaped. The more elaborate stuff can wait.

 

Agreed. While it woulld be nice to have something more elaborate for the next build, we really just need to get a release out! LOL. But something simple at least should be done.

 

Finally, when can we get the code server back?

 

Um... hehe...at the same speed we had it before?....probably in the fall. That was a computer razor only had access to at school and I think he's home for the summer. He mentioned that he might be able to set up a new one at home, but it would be laggy. Better than nothing right? Until then, we'll have to rely on the euro server and tharagon.

 

Poor razor. He cant even go on vacation without us asking questions! LOL

[Maxstate]

^^^ I like.

 

I would really want to start seeing different feats for different styles right now, the "everything does equal damage" is a good idea and I dont think any style should be better than the other, but they all really need some feats or special

stuff that make them DIFFERENT from each other.

[JRHockney*]

^^^ I like.

 

I would really want to start seeing different feats for different styles right now, the "everything does equal damage" is a good idea and I dont think any style should be better than the other, but they all really need some feats or special

stuff that make them DIFFERENT from each other.

 

I'd be open to that, but originally razor didn't want to big of a difference between the styles because he was hoping they would be based more on the players preference of how it looked; which is a good idea too. I would like to see the ability to buy certain moves with force points so there can be more individual customization.

[Maxstate]

I'd be open to that, but originally razor didn't want to big of a difference between the styles because he was hoping they would be based more on the players preference of how it looked; which is a good idea too. I would like to see the ability to buy certain moves with force points so there can be more individual customization.

 

Players preferences, yes, okay. But I'd have a lot harder time blocking big wound up red slashes than a small one handed blue one, know what Im saying?

 

Fine, if he doesnt want that, at least add some kind of special features for each style. Defensive or offensive, special attacks, the possibilites are endless.

Plus, it would bring much more.. "fight" into the fight.

[JRHockney*]

Players preferences, yes, okay. But I'd have a lot harder time blocking big wound up red slashes than a small one handed blue one, know what Im saying?

 

Fine, if he doesnt want that, at least add some kind of special features for each style. Defensive or offensive, special attacks, the possibilites are endless.

Plus, it would bring much more.. "fight" into the fight.

 

Well, there is a bit of a difference in damages. Purple does 13 and red does 17 and with an attack fake, the damages would be purple 19.5 and red 25.5. Slower movement is suppose to be the disadvantage of red, but it really doesnt move that much slower. Maybe the styles could have different slow bounce speeds depending on how fast or how much weaker they are.

 

As for making more variaty in the moves for different styles, I'm open to suggestions, but there's only so much we can do with what's availible. If you find some cool hidden technique anim in modview that would act as a good replacement for something, let us know. Razor had talked about replacing the lunge with a stab for purple a long time ago, but never got around to it.

[Maxstate]

Well, there is a bit of a difference in damages. Purple does 13 and red does 17 and with an attack fake, the damages would be purple 19.5 and red 25.5. Slower movement is suppose to be the disadvantage of red, but it really doesnt move that much slower. Maybe the styles could have different slow bounce speeds depending on how fast or how much weaker they are.

 

As for making more variaty in the moves for different styles, I'm open to suggestions, but there's only so much we can do with what's availible. If you find some cool hidden technique anim in modview that would act as a good replacement for something, let us know. Razor had talked about replacing the lunge with a stab for purple a long time ago, but never got around to it.

 

There are a few, I'll get back to you on that. Its mostly anims from saber locks that we never see or parts of them that (it seems like it, dont quote me on this) never made the game. Only problem being that they dont hve their own windup and cooldown anims, but those can be improvised.

[UDM]

I wish you guys luck in changing the saber system. I really can't comment on what should be changed though, because from what I tried in-game, blue seems too weak ie. I can't find a use for it. Yellow and red seem evenly balanced though

 

Besides, commenting too much will eventually lead me down the dark side, the path of "whine till thou gets what thou wants". So, I just hope the next version will be just as awesome as this

[JRHockney*]

I wish you guys luck in changing the saber system. I really can't comment on what should be changed though, because from what I tried in-game, blue seems too weak ie. I can't find a use for it. Yellow and red seem evenly balanced though

 

Besides, commenting too much will eventually lead me down the dark side, the path of "whine till thou gets what thou wants". So, I just hope the next version will be just as awesome as this

 

As soon as you start to get better at comboing, you'll start to see why its so strong. That and its slowbounce time appears to be shorter than the other styles. Find a bot that uses it and watch him tear you to shreads, just like they do to me half the time.

[UDM]

I was just thinking, would it be feasible to remove the "button clicking" fake"? You know, like when you don't hold the attack button and the attack just stops halfway through the animation.

 

Just a thought, since it seems to make the duels more unrealistic looking. I haven't fought with real players yet, but to me, it seems like it would be better to remove this, because bots always look like they're on steroids or something. Plus it makes parrying so much harder, and besides, I haven't seen this in any of the movies before ie. jedi pretending to swing and sith attempts to parry

 

Jedi: "hehehh you got tricked by me n00b!"

 

No biggy though, but I thought this would help balance blue a little more, since I keep getting owned by reborn bots who use blue (and keep using this cheap tactic of "hehehh n00b you think I'm gonna attack eh?"), but I can own reborn master bots with dual sabers lol

 

-edit-

 

Never mind, now I'm even more confused than ever. I went in-game, set g_saberanimspeed to .2 to test out the parrying and saber system, and it seems that a lot of times, successful attacks are very random

 

1) The bot was attacking me, and I hit the attack key, and he just suddenly died. There was a lot of saber clashing though that lasted for 2 seconds

 

2) When I was sure I parried his attack, I did a super slow bounce. When I was sure I didn't parry his attack, I didn't get any DP reduction

 

And some problems

 

1) When the guy does an attack fake, even if the saber is just beginning its attack, I get hit when I'm close to it, but not touching it

 

And yeah...basically when set to animspeed .2, the whole game got very confusing and random. Mmmm...

[JRHockney*]

I was just thinking, would it be feasible to remove the "button clicking" fake"? You know, like when you don't hold the attack button and the attack just stops halfway through the animation.

 

Um....No! I love that move. LOL. It disguises parries and can help win a fight when your low on FP. It also is the basis for the "attack parry" that will be in the next build.

 

Never mind, now I'm even more confused than ever. I went in-game, set g_saberanimspeed to .2 to test out the parrying and saber system, and it seems that a lot of times, successful attacks are very random

 

1) The bot was attacking me, and I hit the attack key, and he just suddenly died. There was a lot of saber clashing though that lasted for 2 seconds

 

2) When I was sure I parried his attack, I did a super slow bounce. When I was sure I didn't parry his attack, I didn't get any DP reduction

 

And some problems

 

1) When the guy does an attack fake, even if the saber is just beginning its attack, I get hit when I'm close to it, but not touching it

 

And yeah...basically when set to animspeed .2, the whole game got very confusing and random. Mmmm...

 

Hmmmm, weird. I'll run a test on it myself when I have time. the slow anim speed might be causing so issues as well. If it is a problem, Razor and I might have to run a test and fix the code if he sets up another code testing server.

 

Edit:

 

Ok, I just ran a test on it and it seems to be working properly. I parried at least 90% of all swings that I thought should be parried based on the angle of the swing. I didnt see any DP problems, although I wasnt monitoring that as closely as the parries.

 

One thing is obvious though: The parry system is not set up for that slow of a speed. I think what you're seeing when you slow bounce is the "I just parried you" animation slowed down to what looks like a slowbounce because of the settings. I notice that that animaton was slowed down at .3 so much that I could even swing before my opponent.

 

Btw, if you want some really solid setting to fight Tabbots at, try these:

sv_fps 100

g_saberBladeFaces 100

[JRHockney*]

I just had an idea I want to get down before I forget it and I'd like to see what you guys think of it:

 

Make some kind of an invisible barrier between two people who both have sabers and make it just wide enough so you can see your own swing without it getting stuffed into the other person. I have a few reasons for suggesting this:

 

1. It would make the combat look more realistic because each swing would look like a swing or at least partial swing and the bot against bot fights wouldn't be so lame to watch.

 

2. It would help the blocking animations from looking like their sticking their saber into someone without any damage.

 

3. It will stop the lightning fast hits that can happen when your leaning up against someone and attacking. These can suck your DP dry and are impossible to see what's happening. The most common spam I've seen with this is the turning swings while leaning into your opponent.

 

It could also be made that if you both lean against the barrier for too long, you end up in a saber lock. Of course we would have to make it so that winning a saber lock causes a mishap or something. We might have to make it so that two tabbots fighting eachother cannot have this happen since all they do is walk forward most of the time.

 

Another alternative to this idea in general would be to reduce the amount of DP damage you can do to your opponent by half when you too close.

[UDM]

I agree, it is SO annoying when bots come so near I almost think they're kissing me. As a result, somehow, for some really sick reason, their sabers end up tearing me apart because they've got brain powers as fast as my processor can support them, so they have near 0 reaction time to those ridiculous lightning "4 million saber clashes in 1 second" things, while my brain powers are only similar to the speed of a Pentium II 450mhz

 

It sounds like a good temporary workaround though, if not an acceptable solution. Seems like there isn't any con that I can think of

[Maxstate]

Oh that, it just makes fights harder, you learn how to deal with it eventually.

Though the barrier thing sounds good too.

[UDM]

The problem with lightning slashes is that it makes fights more random. It's not so much a matter of learning how to live with the problem, but more of how it hinders the game's aim to improve on saber combat. Just like how silly Jedi Academy's original parrying system was in the first place

[Maxstate]

The problem with lightning slashes is that it makes fights more random. It's not so much a matter of learning how to live with the problem, but more of how it hinders the game's aim to improve on saber combat. Just like how silly Jedi Academy's original parrying system was in the first place

 

I thought about stuff exactly like you untill I took the time to figure it out for myself like I always do. The biggest tip I can give you is to keep your mind on it.

[UDM]

I know what you mean. So far, I realised one way to avoid this, since we don't have jedi reflexes, is to keep a distance from the enemy. Maybe there are other ways, I wouldn't know for sure

 

But think about the new idea that Hockney suggested. It's going to help people who have trouble playing the game. The whole idea of "improvement" is to take a concept that has bugs, and polish the bugs out of the whole picture. I say 'bug' because really, the whole lightning attack thing doesn't strike off to me as anything worthy of being a gameplay feature. At its current state, we'd have to live with the bugs for now, but developing a mod is all about removing the bugs. And I think hockney's suggestion is pretty good, when it comes to removing that 'bug'

 

Look at it this way, no one stands to lose anything. It could be a win-win situation. Newbies get into the game more easily, and regulars get to enjoy saber fights that are more realistic

[Sushi_CW]

While it is true that the saber system gets a lot more random up close, I'm not sure that's an entirely bad thing. I'm not sure I like the idea of an "invisible wall:" I'm afraid it would look and feel a bit cheesy and contrived.

 

Improving extremely close-quarters combat could be done in a number of ways, however, and it's definitely worth thinking about and exploring. Perhaps the damage done by swings starts low when the swing starts, peaks at the apex of the swing, and tapers off after that. That would make the "lightning" attacks close up less powerful individually, and encourage players to aim their swings carefully in all situations.