UDM Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Perhaps razor may look into this and if he likes it, maybe it could be implemented in one of the next versions and we can then see if we like it or it can be improved on. On paper, I admit it is hard to conceive and play out, but who knows what may happen visually . Besides, Hockney's got an endless list of suggestions But anyway, I still think lightning attacks (which incidentally I think are left over from Jedi Academy's core gameplay) ruin the whole feel and pace of the duel xP. My opinion anyway haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 I don't understand what you mean by lightning strikes. Could you make a video of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Same **** thats being abused in NB with red style, get up close to someone and holdyour mouse button and one slash takes like 2 miliseconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi_CW Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 Right... there's just very little time between swing start and swing impact, so it can reset and re-swing faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 Though after a while ist unnoticeable really, fighting bots gets easier and easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted June 2, 2006 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 Though after a while ist unnoticeable really, fighting bots gets easier and easier. Yeah, but it can be spammed between players and makes the first less cool looking and more unpredictable, which is why something needs to be done about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxstate Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 Yeah, but it can be spammed between players and makes the first less cool looking and more unpredictable, which is why something needs to be done about it. True, there's a counter though. Nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 mmm, well, there's supposed to be the bounce animations after each impact. Its possible that those aren't long enough at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UDM Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Yeah that's why I think hockney's suggestions aren't bad . I'm all for the idea of having Jedis kiss, but not with their lightsabers drawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRHockney* Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 mmm, well, there's supposed to be the bounce animations after each impact. Its possible that those aren't long enough at the moment. I suppose if that helps, but I'm a little worried about that leading to potential pacing issues with the regular combat. We could do that if it won't cause any other problems, nbut I doubt that would fix all the problems I've brought up about this. Worth a try I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi_CW Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 This may be similar to something that was already unsuccessfully tried, so if it's a bad idea throw it out. What if when a player blocked, they would "push" their opponent back and/or be "pushed" back to some minimum distance? This would solve the problem of players getting too close in firefights, without looking too artificial. This is similar to JrHockney's "invisible wall" idea, which on reflection is better than I original gave it credit for (sorry Jon ). Whenever a block animation is triggered on a defender, the attacker and/or defender would move enough to cause a minimum amount of separation between them. Maybe the attacker could be pushed back about 25% of the distance needed to create the minimum gap and the defender could move the other 75%. Here's the breakdown: 1. Attacker hits defender at long or medium range. Same as current behavior. 2. Attacker hits defender at uncomfortably close range. Defender blocks and loses DP as normal, and is pushed back slightly. Attacker is also pushed back slightly, and the amount each is pushed back is just enough to get them a minimum distance apart. Potential problems I see with this idea: 1. It might be difficult to implement something that can smoothly push players apart to create the minimum distance when a block happens. If the pushapart takes too long, it would ruin the combat. If it goes too fast, it would look jerky and ugly. It would also be hard to handle special moves in a convincing way, such as the roll-stab and DFA. 2. This might make it harder to chase down players that are running and turtling (although I suspect that this will always be an issue). Actually, it probably wouldn't cause any more problems, since the extra separation would only kick in for hits at very close range. The good news is, it would make the combat more cinematic and prevent some of the wierd problems that occur at extremely close range. Like I said, I don't know if this is a good idea or not. I just wanted to get it out there. It's pretty much what JrHockney was suggesting a few posts back, but it would only kick in on blocks. In any case, I personally believe the short range issue to be something best dealt in another version. Unless, of course, implementing it turns out to be both easy and effective... Oh yeah, one idea that I keep thinking of but forgetting to post: make it so that when a player challenges someone to a duel, both of them get full FP and DP at the start of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UDM Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I think fights would look unrealistic I spoke to razor about the invisible wall thing, and it looks due to engine limitations, it won't be able to be implemented =\ O well...maybe we can think of another counter to this...I'm for the whole idea of running back when enemies come to near, but if there's a workaround, it'll be cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vruki Salet Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I didn't see where the thread of duellers getting too close to each other started but if it's an issue then how about having human players lose dp real quickly when they get to close. As soon as they moved back to a better distance the loss would stop so there'd be an incentive to step back. Close-in fighting would be too dangerous for lightsaber combat considering that unlike real swords hardly any leverage would be needed to inflict a mortal wound. Anyone staying close would have a deathwish. Oh bots could just have their ideal weapon range increased. I haven't look at what it is lately but I increased it quite a bit over what it was several months ago and it looked great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Could you submit a list of your ideal settings then? I've been struggling to find a setting for the saber that doesn't make the bots dance on top of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vruki Salet Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I'll look for them, I should have the one that worked best in an archive somewhere. Afterwards I went too far. This is for saber and if I remember a few others like rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UDM Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Yea annoys me big time when the bots try to kiss me. I find that stepping back makes it much easier to kill them. Which makes me somewhat of a coward when fighting bots, and I hate being a coward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiberator34 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Just played the most recent distribution of OJP. I'd just thought I'd share a few observations I had on it while playing bots in CO-OP mode. 1. Kick seems kind of overpowered. The defensive reaction to it is an overraction, and I can't chop off the offending leg when it's "offered", so it just seems like a little too good of an option. Two possibilities to solve this. A. Make kicks cost force like any other attack. B. Make kicks lead to a total lose of defenses, like jump does. 2. The two seperate meters for defense and force seems a little silly. Wouldn't it be better to have just the force meter and have everything, defense, offense, and powers, work off of that? Just reduce the cost of everything so that it could work off the hundred point meter. 3. Rather than force players to walk around, would it be possible to change the walking animations to more sword fighting type movements? Cause I have some experience fencing and it seems to me like the walking is too slow to really match how you would move in combat. Not that I think full speed running is good, just something a little faster and more manueverable would be more realistic I think. Other than that an awesome and original mod, much better than the JA+ servers I get stuck playing in anyway. Keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi_CW Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 First off, thanks for the comments... I'm sure Razor appreciates them. My responses to your points: 1. I agree with this, to some degree. As you did point out, however, you CAN block them, and as you pointed out, the backflip feels a bit much and looks kind of wierd. One idea that's been kicked around is making it so that crouching will block kicks instead of holding jump, and there would be no backflip. To prevent people from just crouching all the time, parrying would be impossible in crouch. 2. The two meters are a pretty important part of OJPE. It means you have two basic ways to win a fight: overwhelm your opponents defenses (kill their DP meter) or win by attrition (they run out of FP and can't effectively recharge DP anymore). If you are consistently doing more damage to your opponent than he is to you, he will eventually run out of FP even if you can't quite break his defenses completely, and then he's helpless. I think if you keep playing, especially against human opponents, you'll grow to like the two-meter system. 3. I agree, but there's only so much you can do with the engine. Fortunately, you CAN effectively fight by mostly walking, and making occasional darts to get around your opponent or to close quickly when they don't expect it. Some of the tougher players I've faught actually run about half the time, and it's very effective. As long as your FP is high, you have no penalties for attacking on the run... just make sure that you go back to walk before your opponent hits you, or you lose double DP. Ow. Finally, I would suggest playing bots in non-coop mode. Start a duel or an FFA and try them out...the TabBot AI is much better than that used by the co-op bots (at least until more work is done on the co-op bots). You'll find them much more of a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 1. Kick seems kind of overpowered. The defensive reaction to it is an overraction, and I can't chop off the offending leg when it's "offered", so it just seems like a little too good of an option. Two possibilities to solve this. An over-reaction? That's what happened in the movies (Episodes 1 and 3). 3. Rather than force players to walk around, would it be possible to change the walking animations to more sword fighting type movements? We're working on that. Unfortunately, we are limited by the existing animations. We're trying to make some more, but our resources are limited. Other than that an awesome and original mod, much better than the JA+ servers I get stuck playing in anyway. Keep up the good work! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UDM Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 To prevent people from just crouching all the time, parrying would be impossible in crouch. Yeah when you think of the fight between Vader and Luke towards the end of ROTJ, crouch seems to make more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vruki Salet Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 You may have noticed but I posted what I think are improved bot sabering distances. They work well for human vs. bot. Adustments might have to be made for bot vs. bot in case they stay too far apart from each other. (I've never tested bot vs. bot since I only ever use bots to test my saber coding in a fight with me, not in an actual team game.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I've seen them. I'll mess with them when I have the time. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I've been thinking about the light/heavy swing concepts but I'm having difficulty deciding how to handle mishaps and the button scheme. As for controls, here's my idea so far... Not Attacking ------------- Primary = Start Saber Attack Secondary = Kick Swing Wind Up Finished ---------------------- None = Attack Parry/Start Fake Primary = Light Attack Secondary = Attack Fake Primary + Secondary = Heavy Attack Unresolved Questions -------------------- - Other than appearance (maybe blade blur/speed) what's the difference between primary and secondary attacks? - How should mishaps occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UDM Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I think mishaps should be memorable events, not something that happens once every three/four duels or something. Players should go like "I DID THAT! I MADE HIM LOSE HIS SABER! THAT WAS SO FREAKING COOL!" Maybe make it such that your DP and FP are below 10, so when the player gets stunned. And perhaps make it such that everytime he goes into slow bounce, when you whack his saber, it always comes off. Or he always takes like 5 seconds to recover after he falls down, so it allows for some kind of ritualistic finishing move like saber stab (Mortal Kombat anyone?) Not quite sure what you mean by secondary attacks though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I'd like to have mishaps be something that makes the combat more interesting. They're pretty rare (well, at least the heavier mishaps are) in the current system but I feel that it doesn't feel quite right just be slapped around with mishaps when you're low on DP. By secondary, I meant the secondary attack button, whatever that is in your current control setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UDM Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 So kick will be replaced with attack fakes? I like the idea. I think kick should have its own button What are heavy attacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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