Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

BTW, nice catch on the directional parrying bias. I checked the code and it wasn't accounting for the fact that a player is much taller than they wide. I added a quick fix and it appears to have leveled out the directions a bit. Let me know if it needs more work after this week's E-Friday.

[JRHockney*]

Unfortunately, the Dodge issue is one that I've been struggling with since the MotF days. I don't expect a perfect alternative to just appear over night.

 

I'm not anti dodge by any means, but I will keep thinking about possible alternatives to it, for the sake of idea making. Even if we do come up with a nice alternative, a modified dodge might still be a cool force power addition or something.

 

I did just one quick brain storm though on a possible dodge replacement but I don't know if it would work completely and I need your opinion:

 

1. Make all moves blockable whether they are attacking a slow drawback stun, an actual stun, a knock down (which may require giving knockdown its own bounding box {if possible} and at maybe a very quick blocking animation), and a disarm (I was thinking about maybe an automatic micro push for defending against attacks) UNTIL they run out of DP. All blocks and push blocks will use DP until its gone.

 

2. Make actual stuns show up at 25% DP. If a person is hit when they are stunned, unless they hit the proper parry direction, they will get stunned again until they are either out of DP or they parry the next attack. This would also be another excuse for the attacker to use fakes.

 

This system would obviously require more animating and probably some probability tables (which I know you hate).

 

Another idea is to replace the dodge system with a "micro-push" system that uses the bounding box and pushes the attackers saber back while giving the defender freedom to move away a bit before the next swing. For attacks on grounded or disarmed opponents it would work the same way.

 

For the most part, these are just crazy ideas that I put here so I dont forget them, but they might have potential in the distant future.

 

My current idea is to make the bounding box just be trigger for starting a block animation instead of the actual point of blocking impact. Right now, the bounding box counts as the impact point for the blade and that's the partial reason why the blocking animations seem to occur after the attacker's blade bounces. However, if I change this to make the bounding box just start the block animation, the attack swing should in theory hit the actual saber blade (assuming the block animations are good) a fraction of a second later. Please note that if I do that I'll still make the act of blocking count even if the attacker's blade technically slips past the block, which often happens with such intercate animations and player positions.

 

Great idea! That should make it look alot more solid. In order to cover up when the saber slips past the opponents saber, I might suggests either widening the saber flash or changing the position of it... And I still like the new flashes btw. Also, if its possible, you might what to see if you can make it so their is no further attacker's swing animation past the block and it just stops and maybe split second freezes athe the defenders saber even if it technically goes further; however based on what you've told me in the past, I doubt that this can be done right without serious bugs.

 

BTW, nice catch on the directional parrying bias. I checked the code and it wasn't accounting for the fact that a player is much taller than they wide. I added a quick fix and it appears to have leveled out the directions a bit. Let me know if it needs more work after this week's E-Friday.

 

Hey no problem. I love this beta testing stuff; especially since the tabbots arnt morons like in other mods! lol. You might want to make them run when I get a certain distance from them though. I love testing on Kahns Springfield Simpsons map, but its a big map for people to be walking around too much on, but its no big deal.

 

Assuming youre done in time, I look forward to friday........I mean tomarrow for some testing. I work after 2 pm so if you release it before then I will have time to check it out. That's assuming a lot though. Will it just be a fix release or have you had anytime to add a new feature or two?

[JRHockney*]

I had another idea that I should put down before I forget it.

 

I realized that after parrying and kicking alot of tabbots even when they are in the quick draw back stun that eventually seasoned OJP Enhanced players will be able to spot one of these stuns really easily and kick there opponent over constantly. To solve this, I suggest making kick blockable or maybe even parryable (depending on which you think is fairer) by pressing up (w) or something. This might encourage players to change up their attack on a parry so the volleying can still take place even after people learn this trick really well. It might also encourage more use of side kicks and back kicks because they are less expected. ....actually, doesn't croutch block kick? The bots never kick me so I'm not sure. If you don't no, I'll find out tomorrow.

 

Just another idea to play with.

[razorace]

Actually, I suspect that it would be really cool if the players could react to a kick when hit by doing a backflip (like Obi-Wan did in Episode 1).

 

As for friday, the next release has a couple of bug fixes and minor features, but I'm not sure how much it will have until it gets down to the wire. One such feature is that the TABBots now run when they aren't attempting to attack with the saber.

[JRHockney*]

Actually, I suspect that it would be really cool if the players could react to a kick when hit by doing a backflip (like Obi-Wan did in Episode 1).

 

YEEEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!! That would kick major arse! An idea worthy of a Strongbad dance! (Strongbad: "See, The Cheat. This is how cool ideas are made." The Cheat: "myphh hhmmmm")

 

I was also thinking that maybe at super close range, the kick would be substituted for a saber punch that would do a quick stun. It would be cool, but I'm not sure how balanced it would be or how needed.

 

On an unrelated note, I was wondering if you could fix the FP gain on you server so that at least meditation gains FP faster. I'm tired of hearing complaints about FP gain and I also don't want to waste an entire minute of gameplay in meditation while bot or players are swinging at me.

 

As for friday, the next release has a couple of bug fixes and minor features, but I'm not sure how much it will have until it gets down to the wire. One such feature is that the TABBots now run when they aren't attempting to attack with the saber.

 

Great! That feature will save everyone alot of grief on big maps. Good luck getting down to the wire.

 

Btw, I just figured out a way to use my old swing blocking idea without using any DP or FP Its reeeaaallly hard to do (as it should be), but it can be learned and used just enough to give a strong advantage to a person who learns it. It's not usbeatable though.

 

Basically, I found that if you tap attack and start the swing exactly or close to where the opponent is swinging from, your saber will still collide with theirs causing no DP loss and because you are doing a very quick fake, you lose no FP either and you can go right into attack! The angles and timing are very hard to learn though, so if this survives the next build transitions, it may become an OJP veterans secret tactic....or something like that. You should try it out.

[razorace]

On an unrelated note, I was wondering if you could fix the FP gain on you server so that at least meditation gains FP faster. I'm tired of hearing complaints about FP gain and I also don't want to waste an entire minute of gameplay in meditation while bot or players are swinging at me.

Meditation regens fFP at triple the normal riate. I'll double check that to make sure.

 

As for the punch idea, maybe. I'd like to add more melee moves but I'm not sure how to control them.

[JRHockney*]

Meditation regens fFP at triple the normal riate. I'll double check that to make sure.

 

What ever it has been the past couple of fridays is not nearly fast enough. If it is already at 3x, I say make it at least 4x or more. By the time it takes bots to walk over an kill me, I've only charged 15-20 FP.

[razorace]

I'll check the force regen time after I turn the server on....which should be in a few mins.

[razorace]

Well, I'm impressed. 0.0.5 is a definite improvement over 0.0.4.

 

In particular...

1. The visual feedback on the successful parries really makes me feel much more in control of the blocking.

2. The fact that successful parries don't cost DP makes the Dodge system and the skill-based gameplay really shine. I can now last up against 2 bots at once since my DP isn't draining. In fact, I bet a player can now regen DP/FP fairly easily by playing defensively.

3. The Dodge/defense opening fix solved the problem with Dodge causing huge DP drain/death almost randomly during the fights. As such, the fights are lasting longer on their own Yeah!

[JRHockney*]

Great Job with the Bug fixes and the Tabbots are much scarier (although they do lose FP faster now). The saber system is the most solid I've every seen it.

 

The first two priorities on my old list can be crossed off unless I find a bug with them with further testing. I would like to add two new priorities to that list.

 

1. Figure out whats going on with the FFA server crashing. If this problem continues when people try to play Enhanced on their own FFA server, it might turn them off to this mod.

 

2. Figure out why meditating isn't gaining FP the way its suppose to.

 

I still believe in the other two prioities though.

[razorace]

Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't the problem with Holocron FFA rather than pure FFA?

 

As for the regen speed, I'll look into it. I'll probably have to save working on it until next week since I'll have to add some debugger messages to the system to figure out what the dealo is.

[JRHockney*]

Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't the problem with Holocron FFA rather than pure FFA?

Actually, I haven't seen any problems with the holocron. I have seen problems with the pure FFA "Rift Santuary" map though. It seems to crash or show the connection error after a minute or two of play. It actually happened today when you and I were fighting and that is not the first time I've seen it happen. It happened several times last week.

 

Btw, I hate to say this, but I found two weird bugs already.

 

1. I tried to fight some Tabbots in pure malee today and for some reason, after they hit me and my dodge activated, I couldn't kick until I switched back to my saber and off it again. For some reason, it only affected my kick and I could still punch and grap. To make things even stranger, when I got disarmed and got hit and my dodge activated, I could still kick! Thus, it only seems to effect the kick in pure malee.

 

2. For some reason when I power duel two TABbots, one of them almost always jumps on my head and runs in circles!! LOL! Is that intended!?

 

Also, while the parrying system is much improved as far as causing parries with the proper direction, it's still not perfect. I notice several times my Tabbot fights that I parried someone attacking low by moving backwards which shouldn't happen, so it might need a little more work. Next time you fight, try pressing down for a low attack and see what happens.

 

Crazy Suggestions of the Night:

 

1. Make each stance have its own unique stance. It's your mod, so give it some trademark stances............or just some different ones from the movies is fine too! LOL

 

2. Not that I don't enjoy having to fight at least 15-30 seconds for each person (even if they suck) but I would like to see some quicker fight ending opinions that require alot of skill and strategy. Considering how fast Darth Sidious killed three jedi, I figure its not too movie unrealistic. I would suggest making several of the existing special moves do more DP damage, cost a ton FP to use, leave the attacker very vulnerable, and kill the defender instantly if the defender attacks when getting hit or has low DP. This is my best attempt at balance here without thinking it over too much so you could probably figureout a more balanced way if you like the idea.

 

Moves like the butterfly, death from above (red style attack), the roll stab move, the behind stab move, and the yellow style arial attack are all pretty useless in this saber system at the moment. If they were given such benefits and downfalls as I listed above, they might actually be used once in awhile. These moves are also what gave the the crappy Base JA combat some strategy that didn't involve red style swing spam and they might be useful here if balanced right. You could even make up youre own risky moves or death combos if you wanted to. Maybe a hilt-bash-to-turning-stab like Darth Maul did.

 

Another crazy, probably flawed idea from JRHockney* everybody!!! (audience appluase)

[razorace]

"Rift Santuary", got it. I'll give it a run thru it's paces on my local system and I'll hopefully figure it out.

 

Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of people went thru the server today and a lot of people were frustrated/unhappy. I suspect most of it is simply because people don't understand the system but it's still upsetting that the feedback (from the game logs) are so negative AND the fact that none of them bothered to post some feedback here. Ouch! Well, at least some people really liked the mod (probably about 10%).

 

Issues:

Logged. I'll check them out when I have time.

 

Suggestions:

1. I like the idea but I think the animations are already set up to start/end at the current stance positions. Changing them would make the animations look weird.

 

2. I'm not against finishing moves, however, I don't think we can really get into the one-shot-kill special moves without totally unbalancing the combat. This was something that I really didn't like about basejka saber combat.

 

In conclusion, look what Jawa Bond said on the server today. Bawhaha!

so alone so scary so pant-wetting frightening

ah **** im talking to bots again

bots u saw nothing

Gold!

[JRHockney*]

Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of people went thru the server today and a lot of people were frustrated/unhappy. I suspect most of it is simply because people don't understand the system but it's still upsetting that the feedback (from the game logs) are so negative AND the fact that none of them bothered to post some feedback here. Ouch! Well, at least some people really liked the mod (probably about 10%).

 

Aw man. Don't let it get you down, I sure they just don't understand the system or the hard work you put into it. My suggestion: on the server startup/loading screen where it says OJP running enhanced, also say say something like "if you didn't read the manual, youre screwed!!" or "Notice: the saber system is different, read the manual for changes or die trying to figure it out" or something funny and scary like that. Too many people download something and punge right in to it without reading about it and this can't happen for such complex changes.

 

Just remember how impressed that one guy who was watching up fight was with how our fight looked. When you asked him for help, he said he was impressed watching us (paraphrazed).

 

1. I like the idea but I think the animations are already set up to start/end at the current stance positions. Changing them would make the animations look weird.

 

yeah, but there are alot of stance mods out there that don't look too bad in the transitions. I'm for now, I'm only suggesting changing the base stance to something more unique. As long as the stances arnt too outragous, the transitions should not look too bad. At the very least, I think tavion's stance and desann's stance should have their own unique stance, like maybe tavion's original stance for her style and maybe a dooku like stance for desanns. I also kind of like MB's way of making the walk animations (in block) represent what ever saber style they are using.

 

2. I'm not against finishing moves, however, I don't think we can really get into the one-shot-kill special moves without totally unbalancing the combat. This was something that I really didn't like about basejka saber combat.

 

All true, however if the risk is high enough for executing these moves, it shouldn't unbalance the combat, just make Sidious-like kills more rare and spectacular. Comments of the loser in such a situation like this should be like "aaww, I'm stupid. I Cant believe you hit me with that! LOL" or something along those likes. I'll continue to think about what fair risks should be. At the very least, there should be some kind of advantage and disadvange to these moves so they are not almost completely pointless to have.

 

I do think my "risky but powerful spin swing" idea is better and more thought out than this one, though. My old buddy Shawn Zaan notice my old post about this idea and suggested I make a thread about it. Now alot of people are starting to like it there and it has been getting alot of good comments. Will it be implemented? Probably not, because I'm not on the MB team. But who knows. It would still probably make even more sense for OJP Enhanced though.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jawa Bond

so alone so scary so pant-wetting frightening

ah **** im talking to bots again

bots u saw nothing

 

LMAO!!! Now theres a guy who knows how to have fun with games!!! LOL

[razorace]

My suggestion: on the server startup/loading screen where it says OJP running enhanced, also say say something like "if you didn't read the manual, youre screwed!!" or "Notice: the saber system is different, read the manual for changes or die trying to figure it out" or something funny and scary like that.

Unfortunately, we only have one line on that screen to get the message across. We also have the ingame MOTD which I added, but I'm not sure very many people actually see it. I might have to tweak that some more.

 

At the very least, I think tavion's stance and desann's stance should have their own unique stance, like maybe tavion's original stance for her style and maybe a dooku like stance for desanns.

Agreed. Have any specific suggestions? Wait, tavion had an original stance for her style?!

 

I also kind of like MB's way of making the walk animations (in block) represent what ever saber style they are using.

You mean like whil walking in basejka?

 

All true, however if the risk is high enough for executing these moves, it shouldn't unbalance the combat, just make Sidious-like kills more rare and spectacular.

Well, the problem is that moves that instant kill an fully healed opponent totally unbalance the game since the benifit of landing the hit is always greater than the cost of the move unless you nerf the crap out of it. However, I'm not against special purpose moves or finishing moves.

 

For example, I've been thinking about ways to deal with the existing specials and here's what I've been thinking.

 

The Yellow flip special seems to be primarily a manuvering special. You use it to flip over your opponent when 2-on-1 to get behind him. As such, I think this move should allow you to do that without the no block/dodge in mid-air penalty that normally applies to players in mid-air.

 

As for the Blue special, this should probably be a finishing move against players low on DP or FP, if this move lands and the defender doesn't parry it, it should slice their hand off (like in Episodes 2 and 5). This also happens to be vader's signature move. On the downside, this should probably cost more FP or cause the attack to go into a stun if he uses when the other player isn't low on DP/FP.

 

I do think my "risky but powerful spin swing" idea is better and more thought out than this one, though.

Well, I'm willing to give it a shot. I'll probably try implimenting it sometime this next week.

[JRHockney*]

Agreed. Have any specific suggestions? Wait, tavion had an original stance for her style?!

 

I'll have to watch the movie saber battles again! lol. And tavion did have a special stance. It is the Blue stance in that Movie Stances 2.0 animation mod that I told you about. I also like the overhead stance substitution for red stance in this one. Its basically what anakin and dooku used in Episode II.

 

 

You mean like whil walking in basejka?

 

not sure, I haven't played base in a while! lol. Try playing MB2 and walk around hold block in different stances and you'll see what I mean.

 

Well, I'm willing to give it a shot. I'll probably try implimenting it sometime this next week.

 

Hooray!!! I think this will add some serious extra strategy to this system.

 

As for your other comments: I agree for the most part, but I do think at least the death from above red special should be much stronger or instant kill worthy. I mean come on, anyone can aviod that blatanly obvious move! LOL

Your other Ideas are good for the yellows and blue specials btw. But what about the back stab or rolling stab?

 

I have to get to work, so I respond around 7:00 tonight.

[razorace]

I'm not sure about them yet. I'll have to think about it. However, I don't think DFA being a one shot kill is a good since it was really abused in the JKO days.

[JRHockney*]

I'll try to think about it too. As far as the DFA is concerned, it was always a laughing matter when someone actually killed by it because its so easy too avoid, at least from my experience.

 

I wanted to write more but I'm still at work.

[JRHockney*]

I was messing around with a couple of TABbots recently in FFA and I found some issues. I was fighting an anakin model who had duel sabers and set to J(edi Master level) and Plo-koonwho fought with blue style (and set to Initiate). Well....Plo-koon swing spammed us and best us first to 10 points!!! He was practically unparriable and even more so than anakin.

 

I'm sure that youre aware of the problems with duel sabers being hard to parry, but blue is actually worse as far as the TABbots are concerned.

 

In light of the fact that Tokakeke from MB may use Enhanced on his server for the weekends it might be a top priority to make all the saber styles balanced against each other in order to minimize complaints. My previous ideas about how to balance the system from a previous post might be a good way to start the balancing process. Here were some of them:

 

1. I think the freeze time caused by a successful parry or hit should be longer depending on the style that they where hit or parried with. Tavion and blue styles should cause a short freeze while red should cause the longest freeze. I've notice when I fought with red that if I parry someone, freeze ends long before I can finish my swing.

 

2. Make the block animation after doing a successful parry terminate quicker than it does. This often prevents a person who has done a parry from attacking the other person before the other person recovers from the parry they just recieved. I think this is also one of the reason way attacking is much more effective than parrying so far.

 

3. Make the faster styles do less DP damage. When I fight a Blue style tabbot and miss with a parry or get frozen from a hit, they swing spam and tear me to shreads very quickly. If they are going to stay that speed, they need some serious disadvantages. Red should still do the most damage, but not by much. If possible, staff should be weak but have more DP so it becomes a great weapon for fighting 2 or more people.

 

Plus:

 

Quote:

An interesting idea, we might have to try that. But is it logical to have the freeze times differ based on the defender's style or the attacker's style?

 

 

I've been debating this along time in my head and I think it should be based on the attackers style because they are the ones who need to follow up with a swing. Two Red style fighters would never get any hits on eachother after parrying if their freeze time was too short.

 

Quote:

As for the slow bounce times, I agree that they don't seem long enough in some cases, I think I'll make it a little be longer in the next release.

 

 

I'd be careful about this one. I would say that it might be better to work on making the parry animations shorter first so the parrying guy can swing faster. The knockaway animation might work better for this as you suggested. However, if you can't get this done or the attack style based slow bounces (the last idea) done before you make the next release, then its probably a good idea.

 

Quote:

I'm liking these ideas. But, again, should the DP costs be based on the defender's style or the attacker's style? Maybe both?

 

 

Again I had to think about this very hard. I would say both, in a way. DP damage should also be based on the attackers style here, however, different styles will have different DP gains. Staff should have the fastest DP gain and do light to moderate DP damage, thus, making it the best defensive weapon for fighting two or more people. Dual sabers would do maybe Moderate to high DP damage but have a slowest DP gain. Red would have a pretty fast DP gain and do the most DP damage while tavion style would have a fairly slow DP gain and do the least DP damage. Mind you, these differences would have to be fairly small in order to keep it balanced.

 

I'm glad you want to try the swinging power swing idea (which you may have to make the turns slower I think after playing with them for a while), however, for the sake of the future of Enhanced, it might be better to start the thought process of how you could balance the styles with no unfair advantages (like Initiate Plo-koon seemed to have).

 

Aside from the ones I listed above, do you have any other ideas or issues that I should think about?

 

Btw, I just had some ideas about what to do with roll-stab and backstab.

 

1. make them cause stuns (this may go for the other special moves too if you want).

 

2. make them do a more DP damage if you use them on a stunned person.

 

3. if you use them as a finishing move, youre saber will get stuck in them as they fall over and you'll have to retrieve it!!! LOL! Of course, given how hard it was to code the saber sticking in the wall thing, this might be a nightmare to code.

[Vruki Salet]

...Ouch! Well, at least some people really liked the mod (probably about 10%)...

 

You underestimate. The players might be fickle but you're doing one heck of a service for other modders (like little ol me). Your additions and fixes are an invaluable base to build upon, thanks to your hard work and the open-sourceness of your project. Thanks Razorace!

[razorace]

Well, I was looking into the meditation issue today and I noticed that the Fatigue code is set up to make FP not regen while a player is attacking with the saber. I'm sure this was done during the earlier stages of the Fatigue system and I suspect that it's not nessicary anymore. Plus, removing it might help a bit with the complains about FP "never" regenning. What do you guys think?

[razorace]

As per your earlier question on the server, yes, it looks like we can make new stances for the new styles since the single saber animations already just a generic start position for all their swings.

[Vruki Salet]

...the Fatigue code is set up to make FP not regen while a player is attacking with the saber. ...removing it might help a bit with the complains about FP "never" regenning. What do you guys think?

 

I think it should regen fine until several swings have gone on in a row - fewer if it's the same swing over and over. Then a break for a few seconds sets the regen on again. That might discourage attack spamming and constant button smashing.

[JRHockney*]

Well, I was looking into the meditation issue today and I noticed that the Fatigue code is set up to make FP not regen while a player is attacking with the saber. I'm sure this was done during the earlier stages of the Fatigue system and I suspect that it's not nessicary anymore. Plus, removing it might help a bit with the complains about FP "never" regenning. What do you guys think?

 

I'm not sure if I understand. You mean remove the FP drain from attacking all together? If thats what you mean, I would say no because that will give eventual swing spammers a free ride without conservation, especially after they learn how to fake. I'm probably misunderstanding you though. I'm still in favor of making the FP gain go up a little faster though.

 

Another alternative is my old anti-gunner toggle idea slightly modified. It's not neccarily an "anti-gunner" toggle but more of a force user toggle:

 

As far as saberists dealing with gunners, I might also suggest making an anti-gunner saber key that allows saberists to run and attack without stopping or using force power. The catch with this would be if when using this anti-gunner saber style, if a saber hits you or you hit a saber with your saber, you get disarmed!

 

If you were to make it so while in anti-gunner mode you gained FP at default rate. It would make it still hard to gain FP in a saber fight, but it would allow for faster gain while not saber fighting and would help jedi to keep some force after swating at a gunner or jumping or forcepower that normally drains FP and leaves you reserveless for a saber fight. I'm also worried that no one will ever use force powers because they are too FP draining and too slow to recover, so this might be a fix to that. There might have to be a slight delay on the toggle though so people in saber fights cant spam it too much to gain FP.

 

Btw, the reason I asked about taking out the spin swing and only allow it with a button command (may question the server tonight) is because with the risky but powerful turning swings idea, I'm a little worried that in this fast paced saber combat, they might become a little too difficult to avoid doing and getting hit while doing it. And remember, that risky but powerful turning swing idea should only work for yellow, red, and maybe desanns.

 

Anyway, good luck with studying tonight.

[JRHockney*]

I think it should regen fine until several swings have gone on in a row - fewer if it's the same swing over and over. Then a break for a few seconds sets the regen on again. That might discourage attack spamming and constant button smashing.

 

Or maybe what Vruki Salet said. lol