How many do you count?

[toms]

So if most American feel like Bush then yes you have a quarrel with the American people.

Maybe in the past when they were in the grip of fervent nationalism... but at the moment aren't his approval ratings in the toilet? So they'd probably be mostly agreeing..

[Cosmos Jack]

Ok Dagobahn Eagle I’m going to respond in the same way you did. See if I can sound like a version of you, but on the other side.

 

Are you joking?

For starters, do a Google search for "PATRIOT ACT" .

If a guy is looking up how to make a bomb on the net then I think that’s red flag. It should be investigated and the Gov. should know. "PATRIOT ACT" “We want to be free we want to be free no mater what.” Why haven’t we taken away the Muslims rights to speak Arabic that surely can be used against us? That is ok in Europe is it not?

 

Ok let’s not focus on Europe’s problems then you might have to hold your self accountable it's better to pin it on the US right?

 

You realize oil garchs aren't communists, right?

You realize what I was talking about right? No, but respond anyway…

 

It's not enough that they don't need search warrants anymore?

OK, tell me what powers you want them to have.

Probable Cause should be all they need. I can think of some other things but you wouldn’t like them.

 

So because no news channel is 100% objective, Hoax News needn't even try to be objective? I don't think so, buddy. Hoax is a propaganda machine more than a news channel.

Fox News is a company if you don’t like it send them a letter and yes basically. Why expect them to be any different then Al Jazeera?

 

There's very little to suggest that the torture was a form of interrogation.

woops

 

And of course we don't dislike it at all when Iranians hang rape victims or when other countries commit torture. Right:rolleyes:.

Doesn’t seem that you care at all if you ask me. If an American steps on an Iraq’s foot they need to be shot. If Iran hangs a rape victim you say it was an American that raped them.

 

OK, fine, call it hazing. Doesn't make it more right or justified, but if it's your deal, go right ahead:rolleyes:.

Nothing like a little torture at 3:05 AM if you ask me. I was 5 min late.

 

Guesses aside, though, it gives far less than the other countries in the world. In fact, it doesn't even meet the UN's requirements for foreign aid.

What I want to know is when we are going to stop. Foreign aid is a money pit.

 

I wish people would realize that pulling things out of proportion like that brings them nowhere. Sorry, but unless someone actually said we should let the terrorists at Guananamo go, no one's going to listen to half-witted sarcasm such as that.

Then what do you want to do with them? We don’t know what to do with them. There are too many and they are most all guilty. It takes time to figure out who are really the trouble makers. They really want to blow things up. I say we let them go and give them free tickets to Europe so they can bathe in the blood of your bleeding hearts.

 

Well, technically they only elected Bush the second time (officially). They elected Gore the first time, but the electoral college decided to screw the country over.

That is the Electoral College job to decide when they think the people are wrong. Looks like they were right cause like you said he was elected the 2nd time.

 

If you fear terrorism, then the terrorists have already won. I don't fear getting blown up in a terrorist attack, because all I have to fear is fear itself.

I don’t really fear much of anything to be honest. I am however tired and my tolerance of BS is wavering.

 

We've lost the freedom to know what our government is doing, for one.

I could lose count of all the stuff you don’t need to know. The press is to the point where it puts Americans in danger if you ask me. Do you really need to know the names of CIA agents or US troop movements in war zones? If you are unhappy learn Arabic and tune into Al Jazeera. I’m sure they are more along your line of thinking.

 

You can't kill islamic fundamentalism with bombs and bullets, because it's an idea, not a country that you can invade and take over. You have to fight it by not screwing with muslims and invading their countries. Afghanistan though was justified, but it was also justified to stay there and improve the lives of Afghans. There isn't a massive insurgency in Afghanistan, only remnant Taliban fighters. But we've abandoned Afghanistan for Iraq now, and the Afghans are the ones paying the price for that.

Islamic fundamentalism is funded and protected by Muslim countries. It is in their best interest to keep them fighting us. That way it isn’t their fault the people are suffering it is the USs.

 

We are in the shape we are in now, because of thinking like Europeans and thinking like you. Maybe instead of accepting the Middle East for what the Europeans left it as. We should have forced democracy before we had the type of fundamentalism there is now. Now it is too late I think.

 

We have abandoned Afghanistan? I need to tell my old Unit they are alone.

 

If they had anymore power I'd be afraid we'd be seeing things like the beating of a retired school teacher in New Orleans even more.

Are you the kind of person that needs to get beat? If so I would say don’t resist arrest that really ticks cops off..

 

When you torture in order to get information, you get things like "Saddam has connections with al-Qaeda!" The informant who said that - and ultimately led us to an unjustified war - was being tortured when he said so. Torture doesn't work, period. Torture only gets you what you want to hear, which might not be the truth.

I doubt that the info came from an informant more like a president bent on going to war. That’s just logic on my part. All the so called tortured informants were political refuges that had their own agenda. If you have any proof that there were tortured informants please point it out for me.

 

How many terrorist attacks have there been in the US sense 9/11?

 

But other countries around the world don't hold themselves above the rest of the world. We do. And when we go spouting about how great we are and how free we are, it's quite embarassing when photos of our soldiers humiliating, torturing, and murdering helpless prisoners get exposed around the world.

 

One of the reasons that Bush is now saying we invaded Iraq for is to free the Iraqi people so Saddam can't torture them anymore. We did NOT invade Iraq so WE could torture the Iraqi people.

We do and we are that’s not the question and we have a long way to go before we aren’t.

 

Helpless prisoner pore pore helpless prisoner. If it wasn’t for all the BS there wouldn’t be any prisoners they would just be shot. Have you talked to any military that have been over there?

 

I work with one that just came back from Baghdad. He worked as a Nurse in the hospital there. He was disgusted with the fact he had to help enemy combatants and US soldiers’ 1st come 1st serve bases. If an insurgent came in with a serious wound before an equally ingered American he had to help the insurgent. What would an insurgent do to a captured wounded US soldier? It’s one thing to have rules when both sides take part it’s another when only one side is expected to. We have a long way to go before we are to their level, but most people on this forum is routing for the insurgents and anyone anywhere that wants the US to fall.

 

Abu Ghraib wasn’t close to what Saddam did. I hear the Iraqis have been caught doing some of that stuff and are mad that we won’t let them do more. I say let them run the show. Do what needs to be done, because Saddam did and that was ok with the world.

 

Call it what you want, it's still wrong, and the soldiers involved deserve to be stood in front of a firing squad.

I feel that way about a lot of people. Rape is about the only thing I think should be punished to be honest. Anything else in a war is a joke. Civilians have no place telling solders what they should do. I think the military should have its own legislative branch. Run by and elected by Veterans only.

 

If you are so unhappy why don't you look up how to make a bomb on Google. Then drive or walk up to a US military base gate and blow up? I say drive walking with a back pack might look suspicious.

 

Maybe in the past when they were in the grip of fervent nationalism... but at the moment aren't his approval ratings in the toilet? So they'd probably be mostly agreeing..

Well Iraq is the big thing with this. If we weren't in Iraq and doing as bad as the media makes it out to be. I would bet his rating would be way higher.

[rccar328]

Frankly, I think before anyone around here starts bashing the US for being fascist, they should take a look at what fascism really looks like.

 

(Note: There are 4 links to video files. Videos are in WMV (Windows Media Player) format. The videos may take some time to load, and all contain graphic material.)

[TK-8252]

That is the Electoral College job to decide when they think the people are wrong. Looks like they were right cause like you said he was elected the 2nd time.

 

Yes, because Gore was a better candidate than Kerry. But Gore won the people's vote, and that's the one that should count. We cannot have a true democracy if other people choose our President for us.

 

I could lose count of all the stuff you don’t need to know. The press is to the point where it puts Americans in danger if you ask me. Do you really need to know the names of CIA agents or US troop movements in war zones? If you are unhappy learn Arabic and tune into Al Jazeera. I’m sure they are more along your line of thinking.

 

No, we're not supposed to know the names of CIA agents. So tell Bush's cronies to stop leaking their names.

 

Islamic fundamentalism is funded and protected by Muslim countries. It is in their best interest to keep them fighting us. That way it isn’t their fault the people are suffering it is the USs.

 

Yeah, countries like Saudi Arabia. Perhaps we should invade them... wait, damn... they're our allies.

 

We have abandoned Afghanistan? I need to tell my old Unit they are alone.

 

When was the last time you heard ANYTHING from the White House or Congress regarding Afghanistan? I rarely ever hear about Afghanistan in the news, but when I do it's just to report the latest roadside bomb or helicopter crash. As far as I know, no progress. At least none getting reported, even by Faux News.

 

Are you the kind of person that needs to get beat? If so I would say don’t resist arrest that really ticks cops off..

 

Was that old man the kind of person who needs to get beat? No. Did he resist arrest? No. I see that really helped him not get the crap beaten out of him. And I see that AP reporter was really asking for it when he got thrown over a car and cursed at by an enraged cop. Also, trying to justify the beating of the man will fail, because those cops were already fired for their actions. I see they did nothing wrong eh?

 

If you have any proof that there were tortured informants please point it out for me.

 

I heard the story on MSNBC, but I can't find a link to it except on non-news websites which would likely be dismissed as not credible. But common sense tells you that when we send our prisoners over to other countries like Egypt, which uses torture, that they're not being sent over there because they can get a nicer room with cable.

 

How many terrorist attacks have there been in the US sense 9/11?

 

How many terrorist attacks have there been in Canada EVER? Clearly, they're doing something right. And they don't have to give up their civil liberties.

 

We do and we are that’s not the question and we have a long way to go before we aren’t.

 

Right, because a country that invades a defenseless country based on flawed intelligence and then allows it to fall into chaos is the best country on Earth. Screw the rest of the world, right? They hate us for our freedom, right?

 

Helpless prisoner pore pore helpless prisoner. If it wasn’t for all the BS there wouldn’t be any prisoners they would just be shot. Have you talked to any military that have been over there?

 

So I guess we should just line them all up and shoot them? What is the crime they have been convicted of and charged for? And if they're dead, how can we interrogate them?

 

I work with one that just came back from Baghdad. He worked as a Nurse in the hospital there. He was disgusted with the fact he had to help enemy combatants and US soldiers’ 1st come 1st serve bases. If an insurgent came in with a serious wound before an equally ingered American he had to help the insurgent. What would an insurgent do to a captured wounded US soldier?

 

American soldiers clearly should have priority over insurgents. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

 

Abu Ghraib wasn’t close to what Saddam did. I hear the Iraqis have been caught doing some of that stuff and are mad that we won’t let them do more. I say let them run the show. Do what needs to be done, because Saddam did and that was ok with the world.

 

I say we let the Iraqis take over guarding the prisons. It's their country, so we shouldn't be the ones in charge of their prisoners. If they abuse, the Iraqi government punishes them. That way we can't get blamed for letting abuse happen on our watch.

 

I feel that way about a lot of people. Rape is about the only thing I think should be punished to be honest. Anything else in a war is a joke. Civilians have no place telling solders what they should do. I think the military should have its own legislative branch. Run by and elected by Veterans only.

 

The American people need to have the say over the military, and unfortunantly, that means that the politicians in Washington have to have power in making military decisions. The President is commander-in-chief after all, and he's a civilian.

 

If you are so unhappy why don't you look up how to make a bomb on Google. Then drive or walk up to a US military base gate and blow up? I say drive walking with a back pack might look suspicious.

 

Sarcasm aside...

[Cosmos Jack]

Yes, because Gore was a better candidate than Kerry. But Gore won the people's vote, and that's the one that should count. We cannot have a true democracy if other people choose our President for us.

Yes but that the way it has always been….. I think they stopped teaching that far back in History..

 

No, we're not supposed to know the names of CIA agents. So tell Bush's cronies to stop leaking their names.

Bush’s Cronies have their own agenda aside from Bush. I’m sure they didn’t think the journalists would be forced to tell her source. My question is why was it relevant that the journalist had to use the agent’s name.

 

Yeah, countries like Saudi Arabia. Perhaps we should invade them... wait, damn... they're our allies.

Yep let’s just go globe trotting through the middle east and step on everyone’s toes. That will help us when we don’t even have land to stand on. There are places that can be changed more through political pressure and places that need a gun.

 

When was the last time you heard ANYTHING from the White House or Congress regarding Afghanistan? I rarely ever hear about Afghanistan in the news, but when I do it's just to report the latest roadside bomb or helicopter crash. As far as I know, no progress. At least none getting reported, even by Faux News.

As far as I can tell the media doesn’t think anyone needs to know about good things. Like it or not we are still there. I don’t pay attention to Fox News. (unless I want to go on a Christian bashing fest) I don’t see why anyone would. I read the military news web sights.

 

Was that old man the kind of person who needs to get beat? No. Did he resist arrest? No. I see that really helped him not get the crap beaten out of him. And I see that AP reporter was really asking for it when he got thrown over a car and cursed at by an enraged cop. Also, trying to justify the beating of the man will fail, because those cops were already fired for their actions. I see they did nothing wrong eh?

A cop where I live lost his job, because he shot an armed drug dealer after the guy stuck a gun in his face and robed him. As for the old man I wasn’t there were you? It’s hardly cause for giving cops less power.

 

I heard the story on MSNBC, but I can't find a link to it except on non-news websites which would likely be dismissed as not credible. But common sense tells you that when we send our prisoners over to other countries like Egypt, which uses torture, that they're not being sent over there because they can get a nicer room with cable.

I don’t care about what’s going on now. I mean where does it say that we tortured people to get info on Iraq before the war?

 

 

 

 

How many terrorist attacks have there been in Canada EVER? Clearly, they're doing something right. And they don't have to give up their civil liberties.

Given that after 9/11 there was an obvious gap with Canada do to the fact that it was a wonderful staging ground for terrorist to infiltrate the US. Why would they do anything in Canada that might jeopardize that?

 

Canada is dependent on the USA and our foreign policies. What we do affects them not the other way around. So if you want to kill a dog do you kill the tic first?

 

Right, because a country that invades a defenseless country based on flawed intelligence and then allows it to fall into chaos is the best country on Earth. Screw the rest of the world, right? They hate us for our freedom, right?

 

Defenseless country? I would say most nations in the world would be defenseless by our standards. I would argue it’s us as much as it is the Iraqis. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.

 

So I guess we should just line them all up and shoot them? What is the crime they have been convicted of and charged for? And if they're dead, how can we interrogate them?

Well you said line up soldiers and shoot them? I would say blowing up people is worse then idiots making a bunch of idiots pile on top of each other naked.

 

American soldiers clearly should have priority over insurgents. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

I thought you wanted to line them up and shoot them?

 

I say we let the Iraqis take over guarding the prisons. It's their country, so we shouldn't be the ones in charge of their prisoners. If they abuse, the Iraqi government punishes them. That way we can't get blamed for letting abuse happen on our watch.

Can’t argue with that.

 

The American people need to have the say over the military, and unfortunantly, that means that the politicians in Washington have to have power in making military decisions. The President is commander-in-chief after all, and he's a civilian.

Why so when a politician and his corporate butt buddy get the ichin to make some money. They can justify a war the military has no say over and that they have to die for?

 

The president should be removed as Commander-in-chief he is a politician especially this one. Did you know while congress has to approve troops from all other services to be deployed the president w/o the approval of congress can send Marines. In the process start a war that congress may have to approve. It’s a very possible scenario. The Marines Corps amounts to the President’s personal mob sqd wither they like it or not. The American Presidents of today are no George Washington.

 

The military shouldn’t be able to go to war w/o the approval of congress, but also doesn’t have to go to war if it doesn’t deem it is necessary. I system like this might have prevented Iraq. Most military commanders didn’t think we had what we needed to do what we are doing in Iraq. One even had to step down, because of this or he just decided to retire depending on what you want to think.

 

The military is solely commanded by a group of people that will justify a war to make a few more bucks. The militaries only job should be defending the USA, its interests, and attacking when it’s necessary. Not taking a bullet in the head so some fat balled congressman (who screws his secretary) can send his pot smoking kid to Harvard.

[TK-8252]

Yes but that the way it has always been….. I think they stopped teaching that far back in History..

 

I say change it. The only reason they had the electoral college was because people were too ignorant back then to make a good choice. But in a world where information is exchanged around the world in an instant, people are well enough informed to make up their own mind.

 

My question is why was it relevant that the journalist had to use the agent’s name.

 

I guess they don't see the harm since she was already outed.

 

Yep let’s just go globe trotting through the middle east and step on everyone’s toes. That will help us when we don’t even have land to stand on. There are places that can be changed more through political pressure and places that need a gun.

 

I was being sarcastic there.

 

A cop where I live lost his job, because he shot an armed drug dealer after the guy stuck a gun in his face and robed him.

 

That doesn't seem like a problem with the police not having enough power. It sounds more like a problem with the police department that fired him. But you're right in this case.

 

As for the old man I wasn’t there were you? It’s hardly cause for giving cops less power.

 

I'm not saying police should have less power. I'm just not saying to give them more power.

 

I don’t care about what’s going on now. I mean where does it say that we tortured people to get info on Iraq before the war?

 

Like I said it was in an MSNBC report, but I couldn't find a link to it on their site.

 

Given that after 9/11 there was an obvious gap with Canada do to the fact that it was a wonderful staging ground for terrorist to infiltrate the US. Why would they do anything in Canada that might jeopardize that?

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but there's no evidence that Canada is harboring terrorists.

 

Canada is dependent on the USA and our foreign policies. What we do affects them not the other way around. So if you want to kill a dog do you kill the tic first?

 

The thing is, Canada isn't messing around in the Middle East. They didn't put their troops in Saudi Arabia. They aren't the biggest supporter or Israel. They didn't give aid to Saddam Hussein (at least as far as I know). And they didn't then put troops in Kuwait to fight against him. We did. And now we're paying the price for years of interfering in their affairs.

 

Defenseless country? I would say most nations in the world would be defenseless by our standards.

 

Defenseless in the sense that their military didn't even bother fighting us.

 

Well you said line up soldiers and shoot them? I would say blowing up people is worse then idiots making a bunch of idiots pile on top of each other naked.

 

I thought you wanted to line them up and shoot them?

 

Again I was being sarcastic. Most people who know me here would probably know that I'm not too fond of the death penalty.

 

The military shouldn’t be able to go to war w/o the approval of congress, but also doesn’t have to go to war if it doesn’t deem it is necessary.

 

That's actually a good idea and sounds much better than how things are currently run. That would offer a better system of checks-and-balances and separation of powers.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

We need the ancient Chinese custom called the 'Mandate of Heaven' here in the US. I have a feeling Bush would do anything if you said god said it, he's a tool like that

 

Hell, paraphrased, even Thomas Jefferson agrees with me here (about the Mandate of Heaven thing, not the Bush being a tool part).

[rccar328]

Here's some more examples of real fascism:

 

-Google censors searches to enter Chinese market

 

-Chinese gov't bans "Brokeback Mountain"

 

The last time I checked, nothing even near to that was going on in the US.

[TK-8252]

Haven't the Chinese realised yet that communism sucks? *Sigh*

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

^^^^

Communism is a great form of government for poorer countries, the whole of society is given a fair share and the entire country is the better for it. However, as a country grows {I meant over time...}, communism is just like any other government, it is corrupted and there are many people who are disenfranchised and s*** out of luck, but it's intensified because no one can make more money in a communist society. So, communism is not the problem, the leaders of the government are, as is the case with any form of government.

 

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest."

 

--Winston Churchhill

[TK-8252]

Well North Korea is a poor country... I see their communism is working well for them??

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

^^^^

I don't know about you, but forcing your people to eat bark so you can make missiles is something I'd define as corruption. Although I did mean 'over time they grow corrupt', sorry if I wasn't clear, and Korea has been communist for a long time, if you'd even call them communist, as I'd call it a dictatorship.

[TK-8252]

I just don't see how communism can ever be helpful, even to poor countries. Communist governments are known for repression of their people, whether it be religious freedom or human rights. Perhaps socialism is better for poor countries, but capitalism is still the way to go.

[edlib]

Small point:

 

Calling China's human rights violations "fascist" isn't entirely accurate. Communism and Fascism are fairly dissimilar, EXCEPT in the fact that they both tend to be run by Totalitarian regimes.

True fascists tend be very anti-communist, and vice-versa.

 

It's really the Totalitarianism that's the real problem in all of these nations.

 

China could go free-market Capitalist tomorrow, and still be a restrictive Totalitarian regime.

 

Granted, it would be far more difficult to enforce, but it could be done...

[Tinny]

Remember guys that in 1994 Bill Clinton tried to pass a bill that allowed searches without warrants because of a spy leak case that was going on?

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200512200946.asp

 

But no one ever complained about that because it was sort of necessary, hopefully people will cut Bush some slack but if he does abuse it or it stays for too long even in times of peace then we should take the patriot act away. I mean, listening in on phone calls with one person calling in seems less harsh than searching someone without a warrant.

[TK-8252]

Now I don't know the full details about that, but let's say that Clinton did authorize seaches without warrants: just because one President breaks the law and gets away with it, it makes it okay for others to do so? I'm not sure if that's the point you're trying to make, but it kinda sounds like it.

[Tinny]

The point i'm trying to make is that maybe in certain cases a president must do certain acts to protect the people. I'm not sure how important it is in this case, but how come there wasn't so much heat about the same issue then?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Because it was abused in this case, hence the reason news networks use the term 'Bush's illegal wire tapping activities'.

[toms]

Because we didn't know about it then?

[TK-8252]

You know, Bush always says that this program is only for people communicating with known al-Qaeda affiliates. Now, I'd like to know why that if we have the phone numbers of these people, why the hell aren't they hunting them down and dragging them into jail rather than listening to their phone calls?

 

That's one reason why I think this spying program is BS. If they truely knew where these people were calling from they could find them.

[ET Warrior]

I have a friend who is half Iranian, his father is full Iranian, and whenever he called home or recieved calls from home the calls WERE monitored. My friend and his family are about as far from being terrorists as I am from being the president.

 

So that line about only communicating with known or suspected al-Qaeda is BS of the highest order.

[edlib]

I'm hardly an intelligence expert, but...

 

The idea that the terrorists that this type of monitoring might be aimed to catch are:

 

Dumb enough to use unencrypted public lines to numbers that U.S. forces might have already picked up in various raids on their camps and operatives;

AND dumb enough to never suspect that their calls to those numbers in America could possibly be intercepted;

AND also dumb enough to not speak in code about future attacks on those lines to give away their plans...

 

It's all kind of hard to swallow.

[TK-8252]

I have a friend who is half Iranian, his father is full Iranian, and whenever he called home or recieved calls from home the calls WERE monitored.

 

I'm wondering, how is it that someone could know they're being monitored? If a terrorist knows they're being monitored wouldn't that kind of ruin the whole point of the spying?

[rccar328]

Very interesting question...

[ET Warrior]

I'm wondering, how is it that someone could know they're being monitored? If a terrorist knows they're being monitored wouldn't that kind of ruin the whole point of the spying?

Well Isuppose they don't KNOW, but the calls took longer than normal to connect, and were preceeded by an unusual clicking noise that had never happened before. I suppose it could've just been phone company issues