Something that's always bothered me (about Lightsabers)...

[Justus]

Well it is the last Star Wars movie to be made, so we need something to debate for the rest of our lives

[Kurgan]

I don't think the fans can be blamed for creating backstories for characters and items only seen for a few seconds. That blame can be laid squarely on the shoulders of Lucas, who approved the creation of action figures for them and EU writers to create the CANON backstories for them!

 

Lucas clearly expects people to nitpick the movies, because he has his company obsessively publish the various guidebooks and maintain a databank of information on the Star Wars movies and EU. He hired a guy specifically to maintain a database of continuity (the Holocron), etc. So if it's only a minority of obsessed Star Wars geeks who go over every pixel of the movies with a microscope, then Lucas is wasting a lot of time and money with this stuff... He even hired obsessed fan Curtis Saxton to write for him!

 

Why release something like "Behind the Magic" or "Episode I: Insider's Guide" if Lucas doesn't care about the details and doesn't care if we care?

 

So really, this sort of thing was happening right from the first. He might be able to claim it about Episode IV, but beyond that, he helped created that phenomenon as much if not moreso than the most zealous fans.

 

It could be that this is simply a PLOT HOLE. That the production folks just didn't think about where Grievous got the lightsabers from in the first place. They just knew "he's got a lightsaber collection" and he had two sabers that he took from Obi-Wan and Anakin. And then didn't think about it. But c'mon, Lucas knows his fans by now, he surely knew they could catch this. But then he didn't seem to think too hard about Hayden/Owen/Beru's ages, Leia's memory of her mother, R2D2's jets, the Stormtrooper/clones/Boba Fett connection, the look of the Tantive IV & Deathstar and the timeline of the Deathstar developement, Obi-Wan's "memories" of Anakin, and numerous other things. And yes, yes, yes, yes, YES, I know that we fans have come up with endless apologetic retcons to explain all these things, the EU has gotten it's hand into this and in interviews (after the fact, mind you) Lucas has come up explanations for these gaps.

 

Sometimes it seems he really just doesn't care that much, or he takes delight in seeing fans point out the mistakes!

 

The Grievous thing is not the ONLY evidence for mass produced sabers, but it is a major contributing factor. I'm just piecing together the evidence, and it fits with the logic that the Jedi, going through so many lightsabers, and needing them so desperately during this time of war, would need to speed up production considerably. The other main evidences are the storylines of Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, which necessitate some kind of mass production of lightsabers.

 

And don't worry about the debates, we've got the EU, which will be gaining the TV shows soon, until such time as Lucas & co. run the franchise into the ground...

 

Anyway, Easter Eggs are fine, but we're talking about things that appear for a split second, out of focus, out of the main camera viewpoint, disguised, etc. Seeing that Grievous has the exact hilts of Obi-Wan and Anakin doesn't take frame by frame to see. I thought they looked mightly familiar on my second or third viewing of the movie, and then when other fans pointed it out, it became obvious. And you don't have to go frame by frame either... because publicity shots and such that were all over the 'net about the movie (and not just spoiler pics, but popular pics afterward) showed Grievous with the hilts he uses.

 

It would be interesting to see if video games, action figures, concept art, etc. released since ROTS came out depict Grievous with any of those hilts.

 

So whether Lucas said it or not, I think he's totally blowing smoke here. It's a fact that Star Wars fans obsess over the movies. The EU franchise wouldn't be the cash cow it is now without a dedicated fanbase like that. And unlike some other Sci-Fi franchises (cough*Trek*cough), the expanded material is CANON!

[Kurgan]

I can understand them re-using saber hilts but i'm sure that they would have more than two saber hilts to re-use for Grievous, and they would not use the two most recognisable lightsabers in the whole movie.

 

That's another thing. They have all these other Jedi in the movie, why not copy THEIR hilts? Or would we find, doing the frame by frame zoom analysis, that in fact ALL the Jedi use the same hilts in ROTS? That would be hilarious. And if it were simple laziness, it would still be an even stronger argument for mass production at this time.

 

That would be awesome in fact... but I don't think anyone's ever checked!

 

A place where you might be able to argue against this sort of thing would be in ANH: Special Edition. The CG X-Wings they added apparently all have the same markings as Wedge (or is it Luke? I forget) and the pilot inside is modeled on the face of one of the SFX guys. So you'd have to excuse THAT as a shortcut taken by the designers for obvious reasons...

 

I mean, in Star Wars they obviously use the same six stormtroopers over and over again, but at least there it's hard to tell because they all look "identical" anyway. You can assume their armor was mass produced, not that each trooper built his own individual armor as part of his training. But since we have this EU created backstory of each Jedi creating his own saber as part of his training, we wonder (it's a brain bug created from Luke building his own saber in ROTJ because he lost his in the previous movie, with the Jedi being extinct and all and apparently Yoda not having one to give him). I can more freely dismiss the line from Vader, because what we really should have seen (if the EU explanation was true) is Yoda saying "well, you've built your lightsaber, you're a Jedi!" instead of insisting that he wasn't one until he'd confronted Vader again.

[Prime]

That's another thing. They have all these other Jedi in the movie, why not copy THEIR hilts?

Because it isn't as funny?

 

I mean, in Star Wars they obviously use the same six stormtroopers over and over again, but at least there it's hard to tell because they all look "identical" anyway. You can assume their armor was mass produced, not that each trooper built his own individual armor as part of his training.

Because apart from the fact that it is logical, there are other sources that back this up. In the lightsaber case, there are lots of sources that indicate that they aren't mass produced.

 

I can more freely dismiss the line from Vader, because what we really should have seen (if the EU explanation was true) is Yoda saying "well, you've built your lightsaber, you're a Jedi!" instead of insisting that he wasn't one until he'd confronted Vader again.

No, because it is one of the requirements for becoming a knight, not the only one. There was still one part of trial that remained, and in Luke's case that took the form of confronting Vader. Yoda states that Luke needs no additional training, but points out that he is not a Jedi until he confronts Vader. Luke has demonstrated the ability to construct a lightsaber, and does not need to be taught how to do so. There are several things that are required for the Trials that have been documented elsewhere. The lightsaber construction is just one part. That goes against the mass produced theory in the EU sense.

[Kurgan]

Because it isn't as funny?

 

Since when are easter eggs required to be funny?

 

Because apart from the fact that it is logical, there are other sources that back this up. In the lightsaber case, there are lots of sources that indicate that they aren't mass produced.

 

So it's more logical that every lightsaber is produced by hand by an individual Jedi, thus making each lightsaber completely unique, rather than that they can just produce them at will if they so chose, in whatever quantities they need? And what do you do with the sources that suggest otherwise, just ignore them? I say it can be logically inferred from the movies themselves (the prequels) and Lucas's statements about the movies. And since that's the highest source of canon...

 

No, because it is one of the requirements for becoming a knight, not the only one. There was still one part of trial that remained, and in Luke's case that took the form of confronting Vader.

 

I'd like to see where Luke's construction of the green lightsaber was part of his training. I thought he merely built it out of necessity, since he'd lost the only other lightsaber he could get his hands on. This "well the Jedi always constructed their first lightsaber as part of their training" thing is something outside the movies, so I'd like to see where it canonically applies to Luke. Remember all this crap in the Jedi code was completely unknown to Luke or else dispensed with in his totally unusual training, done in a desperate time without the support of the usual Republican Jedi Order structures. Under the old older Luke would not have been born of a Jedi, he'd have been raised from birth (or early infancy) by the Order, been forbidden to marry, and given to a Master as a child after being instructed by Yoda. His actual experience doesn't go with that at all. We don't see or hear about any lightsaber construction in the prequels. The little kids have lightsabers and the adults have lightsabers. The adults go through lightsabers periodically. And we know there are lightsabers out there that are identical and used by different people.

 

Yoda states that Luke needs no additional training, but points out that he is not a Jedi until he confronts Vader. Luke has demonstrated the ability to construct a lightsaber, and does not need to be taught how to do so.

 

How did Luke know how to build a lightsaber? We're not told in the movies. It wasn't some divine knowledge, however, nor was it Yoda who taught him, according to the novelisations and what I recall from SOTE. Rather he just, for his own sake, dug into Obi-Wan's old belongings and found a book on how to do it. If it was truly part of his Jedi training you'd think he would have done it under the supervision of Obi-Wan or Yoda. When do we ever see them instructing him on how to build a saber? Heck, Yoda didn't even HAVE ONE (and before you say we just didn't see it, according to the EU he gave it to Qu Rahn for safe keeping before his exile or something, which might need to be retconned via the ROTS and the deleted scenes, in which he simply loses the one he had in the Senate chambers). And IIRC the sources that describe Luke building his saber don't mention Obi-Wan's spirit instructing him either, it's all him, but he IS using schematics and things, it's not from memory or revelation. And according to SOTE, he synthesizes the crystal(s) (which flies in the face of claims that only Sith lightsabers have synthesized crystals, which I like to point out!) needed.

 

There are several things that are required for the Trials that have been documented elsewhere.

 

Right, the Clone Wars series, it seems that the "trials" are nothing more than just some mission(s) that have something vaguely to do with various Jedi ideals. But apart from that, it all seems very contrived. Why would one of the trials be very specifically building a lightsaber. Can they use notes? Luke did. Luke didn't use the Force to build it either. According to what I recall he just used the force to help him concentrate while he worked (ROTJ Radio Drama IIRC). Like the Jedi Code, if there is a specific set of rules for the Jedi "trials" we aren't shown these.

 

The CW series shows us the first "construction" of a lightsaber, but it appears to be little more than a chunk of crystal and a metal fixture for a handle. Perhaps the trial is just taking it apart and putting it back together then! And in that case she (that female Jedi whose name escapes me) actually forms the parts together with the Force, which Luke clearly did NOT do, so I guess Luke failed the "trial"? In neither case do we see them construct the device from scratch. Rather, it seems more like you bought a Lightsaber Kit at the store and just sat down and snapped the pieces together and turned it on. How in-depth do you need to go to have considered you "passed"?

 

On the other hand, the CW series events are somewhat exaggerated, so this may not even be an accurate depiction of how it's really done (Jedi trade secrets and all, can't show it, maybe!).

 

The lightsaber construction is just one part. That goes against the mass produced theory in the EU sense.

Both the lightsaber construction as part of the trials and the mass produced theory are both supported in the EU. Perhaps a harmonization attempt would be to say that building A lightsaber can be part of the trials, but that doesn't mean all lightsabers are made this way. Otherwise each Jedi would have one lightsaber, and one lightsaber only. Or else they would waste all their time building new lightsabers to replace the ones they lost in their adventure-filled careers.

 

The movies themselves present evidence for mass production in the prequels. The only evidence for the "lightsaber construction is a rite of passage of a Jedi" is Vader's one line to Luke. Otherwise it all comes from the EU. Since the EU material conflicts, what do you propose we do?

[edlib]

Luke was supposed to be as mechanically inclined as Anakin, so chances are he took his own saber apart at one point to see how it worked and what it was made of.

I also assume that sabers need some maintenance and/or occasional cleaning/ tune-ups, like any mechanical/ electrical system. Obi-Wan's shorted out from being exposed to swampy water when he first landed on Naboo, and probably didn't work again until he had a chance to clean it out. So Luke would have had to pull his apart from time-to-time and clean the points and re-focus the lenses or whatever. Remember, these are weapons, and most warriors are taught from the first to be obsessive about taking care of their weapons. Almost above all else. I'm sure Obi-Wan gave Luke a run down on cleaning and caring for a saber... either on the Falcon on the trip to Alderaan... or in their hotel room on Tatooeen even before they left.

 

There must also be a Star Wars galaxy-spanning version of the internet, with a Google function. There must be articles available about saber construction somewhere available.

 

But a saber workshop/ factory in the Jedi Temple does make perfect sense. Someone needs to make "training sabers" for the younglings, as well as practice drones and the like.

Even if the Jedi make their own most of the time, they'll need a workshop where they could do it, and pull parts from the bin.

I doubt these are parts that the average, local Couriscant Radio Shack carries.

[arkodeon]

Since when are easter eggs required to be funny?

 

 

 

So it's more logical that every lightsaber is produced by hand by an individual Jedi, thus making each lightsaber completely unique, rather than that they can...

 

*Snip*

 

 

Maybe you have forgotten the 'Clone Wars' cartoon, near the end of the First season, when BARRISS OFFEE is makin' her lightsaber.

 

You know, Luminara Undili's oh-so-insightful quote about the Heart, the Blade, and the Force?

 

Now, if that's not tradition, if that's not a reason why Lightsabers are force-only, then that was rather stupid. Barriss Offee went to Ilum to create her Lightsaber, so she could ascend the ranks of Jedi Knighthood. The construction of the lightsaber IS the final test to pass into Jedi Knighthood, and takes great skill and concentration. A lightsaber reflects the personality of the Jedi Knight, and the looks should correspond to the personality.

 

Also, according to a website devouted to Lightsabers, whose name escapes me, each Jedi had a "Clan" lightsaber as well, which is to say that one of their lightsabers is exactly the same as other Jedi in the same clan. (The group they were put into when they first became Younglings.) It stands to reason that a Jedi Master who taught the clan, most likely Yoda, would create a lightsaber for each of the Younglings when old enough, graduating from the controlled, low-intensity training saber, or perhaps they would have a stock of Clan sabers avaliable. If there is any Truth to this website, I am not sure.

 

Also, I do not know about you, but I don't think I could effectively deflect those laser bolts without the use of the force. The Lightsaber is an effective weapon because it allows the Jedi/Sith to create his own shield; without the force, I do not see that as a viable option. Also, as in today's world, the Gun is more effective, as the gun can reach long distances, and can keep the user from harm; the lightsaber demands close quaters combat. A non-force user simply could not wield a Lightsaber effectively enough to destroy many enemies in a few seconds; non-force users, using Lightsabers, in close quaters combat, would likely die from being flanked.

[Prime]

So it's more logical that every lightsaber is produced by hand by an individual Jedi, thus making each lightsaber completely unique, rather than that they can just produce them at will if they so chose, in whatever quantities they need?

That wasn't what I said. I said that it was logical to mass produce suits of stormtrooper armour. And I said even disregarding that, there are sources that explain that that was how armour was produced. Just like there are sources that explain that Jedi Knights construct lightsabers.

 

And what do you do with the sources that suggest otherwise, just ignore them? I say it can be logically inferred from the movies themselves (the prequels) and Lucas's statements about the movies.

What statements are those?

 

I'd like to see where Luke's construction of the green lightsaber was part of his training. I thought he merely built it out of necessity, since he'd lost the only other lightsaber he could get his hands on. This "well the Jedi always constructed their first lightsaber as part of their training" thing is something outside the movies, so I'd like to see where it canonically applies to Luke.

He did do it out of necessity. It also happens to be a requirement for the Trails. I don't see what the issue is here.

 

Remember all this crap in the Jedi code was completely unknown to Luke or else dispensed with in his totally unusual training,

Why do you say that? Are you implying that what Yoda taught Luke in the month(s) they were together is completely different from what the OR Jedi were taught? No doubt the Jedi Code was imparted to Luke in that time.

 

We don't see or hear about any lightsaber construction in the prequels. The little kids have lightsabers and the adults have lightsabers. The adults go through lightsabers periodically.

According to the EU, apprenticies and padawans are given lightsabers by their masters. They are then required to construct one themselves in order to become a knight.

 

And we know there are lightsabers out there that are identical and used by different people.

Are the only identical ones those used by Grievous?

 

How did Luke know how to build a lightsaber? We're not told in the movies.

Probably doesn't matter. In the end he did build one.

 

It wasn't some divine knowledge, however, nor was it Yoda who taught him, according to the novelisations and what I recall from SOTE.

But would Yoda have taught him had Luke remained to complete his training instead of running off? Who knows, but I would say probably.

 

And IIRC the sources that describe Luke building his saber don't mention Obi-Wan's spirit instructing him either, it's all him, but he IS using schematics and things, it's not from memory or revelation. And according to SOTE, he synthesizes the crystal(s) (which flies in the face of claims that only Sith lightsabers have synthesized crystals, which I like to point out!) needed.

Presumably Obi-Wan constructed his own and so no doubt designed schematics and such beforehand. If Luke used those, fine. He still had to put it together himself. And while they are similar, Obi-Wan's and Luke's lightsabers are different. And why would Kenobi have schematics if they were all mass produced in the first place? Surely the lightsaber company would keep those to themselves.

 

Right, the Clone Wars series,

Well, there are sources before that.

 

Why would one of the trials be very specifically building a lightsaber.

Because the lightsaber is the symbol of the Jedi and that weapon "is their life." And perhaps if as you say they are losing them all the time, it is important to know how to construct a replacement.

 

Can they use notes? Luke did. Luke didn't use the Force to build it either. According to what I recall he just used the force to help him concentrate while he worked (ROTJ Radio Drama IIRC).

Obviously the way Luke did it was valid.

 

Like the Jedi Code, if there is a specific set of rules for the Jedi "trials" we aren't shown these.

The Power of the Jedi is one source. In short...

 

Well, according to the EU the Trails are:

 

One must demostrate a facility with the Force by performing relatively

simple tasks related to the aspects of the Force to prove her ability to wield the Force in all its' forms. Things such as moving objects, mind stuff, and so on.

 

A test to determine a Jedi's knowledge of the Jedi Code may be as simple as

a series of questions posed to her during her trials. These include

interpretations of the Jedi Code, lessons learned from Jedi history, and

discerning actual Jedi lore from an erroneous tale, which confirms the

apprentice's knowledge base.

 

A Jedi apprentice cannot become a Jedi Knight unless she constructs a

lightsaber. However, a special dispensation may be granted by her testers

should their culture or heritage warrent such circumstances.

 

If, as most Jedi do, she does construct her lightsaber, the Jedi is tested

on her proficiency in its' handling and is often tested in a lightsaber

duel.

 

A Jedi must also be capable of defending herself, and must face a test in

which she calls upon the Force to defend herself, without the use of the

dark side.

 

A Jedi must have sound judgement, and this second to final test determines

whether or not a Jedi can make reasoned decisions in a short amount of time

withour her masters' prompting.

 

The final mission of all Jedi is a solo mission in which the Jedi performs a

task on her own, without the help of her Master or another Jedi. This is the

most telling trial of Knighthood--whether a Jedi can perform alone or not.

 

The CW series shows us the first "construction" of a lightsaber, but it appears to be little more than a chunk of crystal and a metal fixture for a handle. Perhaps the trial is just taking it apart and putting it back together then! And in that case she (that female Jedi whose name escapes me) actually forms the parts together with the Force, which Luke clearly did NOT do, so I guess Luke failed the "trial"? In neither case do we see them construct the device from scratch. Rather, it seems more like you bought a Lightsaber Kit at the store and just sat down and snapped the pieces together and turned it on. How in-depth do you need to go to have considered you "passed"?

Who knows. Most likely every jedi does it a bit differently, since they no doubt put something of themselves into the process. But in both those cases a functioning lightsaber was constructed.

 

Both the lightsaber construction as part of the trials and the mass produced theory are both supported in the EU. Perhaps a harmonization attempt would be to say that building A lightsaber can be part of the trials, but that doesn't mean all lightsabers are made this way. Otherwise each Jedi would have one lightsaber, and one lightsaber only. Or else they would waste all their time building new lightsabers to replace the ones they lost in their adventure-filled careers.

I don't think they lose them as often as you think they do, but perhaps there were Jedi armourers that constructed lightsabers for training and padawans and whatnot.

 

The movies themselves present evidence for mass production in the prequels. The only evidence for the "lightsaber construction is a rite of passage of a Jedi" is Vader's one line to Luke. Otherwise it all comes from the EU. Since the EU material conflicts, what do you propose we do?

Personally I don't think the evidence for mass production is as strong as you say, but I guess we will have to wait for Lucas to say something about it. But personally, I think what the EU explains in terms of the Jedi constructing lightsabers is sufficient.

[arkodeon]

That stuff about General Grievous having duplicates of Obi-Wan and Anakin's lightsabers.

 

I think someone mentioned this, but he does also have Adi Gallia's lightsaber in his hand, and I think Ki-Adi, but I can't recall from the website I saw.

 

And if you follow the continuity of the movie, the hilts switch hands and colours throughout the duel with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's starts out in the Upper Right, if I am not mistaken, with a blue blade; Anakin's is in the bottom right, Green Blade, and I can't remember which configuration for Ki-Adi and Gallia.

 

Obi's then switches to being green, and Anakin's becomes Blue, while Adi Gallia's is cut from his hand. I know that Adi Gallia's switches colours from Green to blue, I believe, and Ki-Adi's becomes no where in sight.

 

Obi's lightsaber then switches places with Anakin's and vice versa throughout the duel. It was a technical mishap, not a Canon fact.

 

 

EDIT: The website was http://www.thelightsaber.com. XD

[MachineCult]

EDIT: The website was http://www.thelightsaber.com. XD

The ANH sabers look so bad they badly need sorting out.

[edlib]

In the Clone Wars she is shown installing a crystal into an already constructed hilt.

 

I think the question is if the Jedi do ALL the work on the lightsaber themselves?

 

For example: Do the Jedi have to learn how to work a metal lathe to mill the handle by hand? How about all the micro-electronics that have to go into something like that? Are they designing the chips and doing all the soldering themselves? Are they stitching the leather that goes on the handles themselves? Do they actually have to do the mining for the crystals themselves? How about the gem cutting once they get it?

 

All of these are skills that it can take years of dedicated training to master just one of them. Asking a Jedi who's purpose and training are along different paths to be a consummate technician in any of those fields in addition to all the other training they must receive seems a bit unrealistic.

 

My feeling is that all that type of work is relegated to droids. The Jedi in question may personally design the handle based on several existing templates using 3D holographic CAD/CAM software, and a hand-fitting, which is then sent to droids to actually produce the hilt in a small, dedicated factory right in the Temple. The jedi then picks out the crystal and installs it.

 

But I don't see a Jedi spending weeks in a metal shop at a lathe, then moving over to a soldering bench. That just doesn't seem like something that would be a good use of their time.

 

In battle, weapons get damaged, lost or destroyed all the time. Even for the Jedi. The Jedi must have a system for a quick replacement. ESPECIALLY at the height of the Clone Wars, when they are far from the galactic center most of the time.

Obviously, using a generic weapon is not ideal... but it's better than leaving the battle for 8 to 10 weeks to fly back to Couriscant to pick up parts, and craft the hilt. Then a quick jaunt to Illum to mine out the perfect crystal, then go at it with your gem-cutting tools, install it, and do all the bench testing before flying back, only to find all your clone-troopers dead.

[arkodeon]

Obviously, one does not expect a Jedi to learn how to mold the parts themselves, even that would be too much to expect.

 

But that is not to say they do not assemble the Lightsaber themselves. Those parts made from the Droids are most likely then manipulated (By that, I mean moved around, put in different combinations) to become the Jedi's Lightsaber, and, using the force, the Crystal is delicately placed inside the hilt.

[Kurgan]

What statements are those?

 

Statements by Lucas that he intended to have a running theme of Jedi constantly losing their lightsabers. And when they lose them, they lose them for good in most cases.

 

He did do it out of necessity. It also happens to be a requirement for the Trails. I don't see what the issue is here.

 

I'm curious where it is stated that Luke's construction of his lightsaber was part of his "trials."

 

Why do you say that? Are you implying that what Yoda taught Luke in the month(s) they were together is completely different from what the OR Jedi were taught? No doubt the Jedi Code was imparted to Luke in that time.

 

I doubt he was taught the code. It seems his training was completely different than the OR Jedi. In fact, this would be a logical conclusion, since the supplemental material for ROTS makes such a big deal about how the Old Jedi were spending all their time focusing on the wrong things, learning stuff that just held them back, etc. Yoda would have had to refine his teaching techniques into something that cut to the heart of things to get Luke ready for his battle with Vader in a fraction of the time that these other Jedi had. He didn't have two decades to teach the kid after all. That he may have thrown in some Jedi slogans is probable enough, but if he'd taught him the Jedi code (which wouldn't make much sense with no Republic in place), then Luke would have known he couldn't marry, and other things that the EU ignored. That's the thing. The EU posits that all this Jedi Lore was "lost" and yet if Yoda taught it all to him, then it wasn't. So that makes me think Yoda just gave him the cliffs notes or re-wrote the book entirely. And it's not too much of a stretch to think he did, since he was sitting in that mud puddle for 22+ years. He'd have had plenty of time to think about it.

 

According to the EU, apprenticies and padawans are given lightsabers by their masters. They are then required to construct one themselves in order to become a knight.

 

Is that Prequel era EU or post-ROTJ EU?

 

Are the only identical ones those used by Grievous?

 

Those are definate examples. I'm not sure if there are others, I'd have to check honestly. Anakin's sabers all look the same (his Vader one just slightly different, adding some black elements to it mostly), but you could try to argue that that's just his style (when Obi-Wan's lightsabers look different from one another).

 

Probably doesn't matter. In the end he did build one.

 

It's just that we need not assume because he built one, that all Jedi have to build one, or they can't become Jedi. You're assuming this is a "rule" of the Jedi Order that was true in the Old Republic as well as the New Republic. Where is the evidence for that? I don't even see where this rule is applied to Luke, it's just coincidence, and yet people assume that Luke's actions are in keeping with an unbroken tradition?

 

But would Yoda have taught him had Luke remained to complete his training instead of running off? Who knows, but I would say probably.

 

If he'd had twenty years to train him and no worries about the Empire, perhaps. But the situation was such that he had to do something different. Clearly the Old Jedi failed, so he had to do something different and drastic with Luke. Should we assume that Luke's New Jedi were trained identically to the Old? This was were a nice bit of EU revisionism actually made a little bit of sense. We're told that so many old traditions and rules were dispensed with because the Old Jedi were infected with hubris leading to their downfall. But then again, the desire on the part of the authors for conflict within the order meant they made their own mistakes. How many of Luke's pupils fall to the Dark Side? Plenty. He's definately no Yoda (he lost 20 students in 800 years??).

 

Presumably Obi-Wan constructed his own and so no doubt designed schematics and such beforehand. If Luke used those, fine. He still had to put it together himself.

 

So the "Jedi Trial" is just to use a snap-together Lightsaber Kit to put some parts together? I always wondered how much work actually had to be done on their part to get a passing grade. So one could just take a saber apart and put it back together again?

 

And while they are similar, Obi-Wan's and Luke's lightsabers are different. And why would Kenobi have schematics if they were all mass produced in the first place? Surely the lightsaber company would keep those to themselves.

 

Because he feared he wouldn't have access to the machines again when forced into exile because of the Empire! If the Lightsaber company was taken over by the Empire (for obvious reasons). I realize their lightsabers are different, though they do bear a strong resemblance to one another (and Luke's saber was even changed to green at the last minute due to SFX considerations!).

 

Well, there are sources before that.

 

Besides Clone Wars, I saw a scan of a page from one of the Tales of the Jedi (?) comics that showed a few metal parts to make a hilt and a big hunk of green crystal. Is that the source you're talking about? Or what else?

 

Because the lightsaber is the symbol of the Jedi and that weapon "is their life." And perhaps if as you say they are losing them all the time, it is important to know how to construct a replacement.

 

Funny, I thought the 8 spoked "Bendu" wheel was the symbol of the Jedi. Is Obi-Wan's statement to Anakin a quotation from the Jedi code? I thought the Force was their life, not their weapon... Or it is important to have mass production facilities, since they don't have time to constantly be building the things uniquely by hand. Build your first one for some Jedi ritual? Fine. Building every single one every time you lose one? Pointless annoyance.

 

Obviously the way Luke did it was valid.

 

Obviously everything Luke did was valid, because there was no Jedi Order at the time. He mostly did everything on his own with Obi-Wan and Yoda giving minimal instruction. But that's because he had no other choice, really, other than hook up with the Sith. To learn the ways of the Force he had to go it alone.

 

The Power of the Jedi is one source. In short...

 

Which is what, novel, comic? Never heard of it (but then I haven't read everything).

 

Well, according to the EU the Trails are:

 

But which part of the EU, that's what I'm asking. Specific sources, not just "the EU says" because I'm sure the EU says a lot of things, no offense.

 

One must demostrate a facility with the Force by performing relatively

simple tasks related to the aspects of the Force to prove her ability to wield the Force in all its' forms. Things such as moving objects, mind stuff, and so on.

 

So Luke pulls his lightsaber from the snow. Trial #1 accomplished.

 

A test to determine a Jedi's knowledge of the Jedi Code may be as simple as

a series of questions posed to her during her trials. These include

interpretations of the Jedi Code, lessons learned from Jedi history, and

discerning actual Jedi lore from an erroneous tale, which confirms the

apprentice's knowledge base.

 

Never seen in the movies. Trial #2 unaccomplished. Yoda cut off Luke's questions. And what questions did he ask Yoda... You know Yoda? What am I doing here? Is Darth Vader my father? Is the Dark Side stronger? And sacrifice Han and Leia? etc. Interesting stuff but what does that have to do with the Jedi code? We at least should have heard Luke making quotes from famous Jedi teachers and reciting appropriate passages. All of it must have happened off screen... oh well.

 

A Jedi apprentice cannot become a Jedi Knight unless she constructs a

lightsaber. However, a special dispensation may be granted by her testers

should their culture or heritage warrent such circumstances.

 

How convenient! So what about all that stuff with becoming a Padawan Learner under the tutelage of a Master for ten years or so? Luke almost does this with Obi-Wan but it's backwards. First you're supposed to get your training as a child from Yoda, THEN get your Master to train you as you go on adventures and follow his lead, etc. Luke gets some intense hours (?) from Obi-Wan and Yoda each between years of schlepping around on his own.

 

He builds his saber after all that training. Isn't it odd that neither Obi-Wan or Yoda says one word to Luke about his saber construction either before or after? Funny if this is Trial #3...

 

If, as most Jedi do, she does construct her lightsaber, the Jedi is tested

on her proficiency in its' handling and is often tested in a lightsaber

duel.

 

Oh right, so Luke's facing Darth Vader again has nothing to do with facing his fears or eliminating an evil, rather it's just to make sure he gets in some lightsaber practice. He never sparred with Yoda or Obi-Wan, his first duel is with the Dark Lord of the Sith himself! Fun... But you say "often," so maybe this part of the Trials isn't necessary. His finesse leaves much to be desired, but he seems to be able to fight with one well enough, since he's still alive. Trial #4 accomplished.

 

A Jedi must also be capable of defending herself, and must face a test in

which she calls upon the Force to defend herself, without the use of the

dark side.

 

Hmmm. I guess this one goes unaccomplished in the movies. But in the novelisation he blocks Sideous's lightning for a second or two before he gets blown over. Trial #5 failed.

 

A Jedi must have sound judgement, and this second to final test determines

whether or not a Jedi can make reasoned decisions in a short amount of time

withour her masters' prompting.

 

Not sure about this one, but maybe you could consider his rescue mission of Han Solo. Trial #6 completed?

 

The final mission of all Jedi is a solo mission in which the Jedi performs a

task on her own, without the help of her Master or another Jedi. This is the

most telling trial of Knighthood--whether a Jedi can perform alone or not.

 

It's questionable if this is part of the Old Jedi, as for the most part the Jedi (except when forced by necessity) always go in pairs: masters with padawans in tow, or a pair of Jedi or more. Yoda seems to be the exception, as he travels into dangerous situations by himself. We never see Mace Windu's Padawan, but whenever he ventures out, he always takes Jedi with him.

 

Then again Palpatine's comment that "they've finally given you a solo assignment" might point to something like this. A one-time babysitter-less mission (guarding Padme? wasn't that Palpatine's suggestion?).

 

Anyway...

 

Trial #7 completed, since Luke spends most of his time alone. He defeated Darth Vader and indirectly caused the Sith's destruction and came back alive.

 

Who knows. Most likely every jedi does it a bit differently, since they no doubt put something of themselves into the process. But in both those cases a functioning lightsaber was constructed.

 

So Mace Windu turns to his Padawan: Are you ready little kid? Good.

(quickly takes apart his saber.. his hands are a blur until it's just a pile of parts lying on the table)

Go for it.

 

(many hours later)

Padawan hands Mace the re-assembled saber. The Master cautiously hits the button and ignites it. "Not bad kid, you pass."

 

 

I don't think they lose them as often as you think they do, but perhaps there were Jedi armourers that constructed lightsabers for training and padawans and whatnot.

 

You mean as often as Lucas thinks they do? He wrote it, not me. If that's so, then they must have a knack for building lightsabers with a certain design for certain people, or else Jedi have some choice in design or which armorer they get it built by. A plausible suggestion. It posits that there are some guys who spend their time building lightsabers for everybody else. With modern methods of construction they could cut building time considerably. If only the "crystal alignment" requires any mystical prowess a Jedi might not even be needed until the final stage of construction. So he could hire the work out to non-Jedi in theory. The Sith may have bribed some of these workers (or mind tricked them) or else they have their own secret facilities. But then with only two people to outfit, they might be able to rely on solo construction also out of necessity for secrecy.

 

Personally I don't think the evidence for mass production is as strong as you say, but I guess we will have to wait for Lucas to say something about it.

 

Did you ever play Jedi Outcast/Academy? Tell me there's no evidence for mass production in those games's storylines.

 

But personally, I think what the EU explains in terms of the Jedi constructing lightsabers is sufficient.

That's fine, but it necessitates us ignoring some evidence in favor of others. Perhaps you're right and this is the "real" explanation. The "canon answer" to a question like this is not always the most logical one (the "all stormtroopers are clones, well until a few years ago" explanation is one such example).

[Prime]

Statements by Lucas that he intended to have a running theme of Jedi constantly losing their lightsabers. And when they lose them, they lose them for good in most cases.

I can't remember those specifically, but they do ring a bell. IIRC that is a theme added as sort of a joke, wasn't it?

 

I'm curious where it is stated that Luke's construction of his lightsaber was part of his "trials."

At the time, nowhere, since it is something that has only come about with the prequels.

 

I doubt he was taught the code. It seems his training was completely different than the OR Jedi.

To clarify, the code I am refering to is:

 

There is no emotion; there is peace.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no passion; there is serenity.

There is no death; there is the Force.

 

Another less common version found in a couple places...

 

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.

Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.

Jedi respect all life, in any form.

Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.

Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

 

We see some of this in ESB. Yoda tells Luke, "YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." There are elements of the code in what he says, even onscreen.

 

That he may have thrown in some Jedi slogans is probable enough, but if he'd taught him the Jedi code (which wouldn't make much sense with no Republic in place),

Defence of the Republic itself was not a part of the Code. It was the implemention of how the Jedi of that era acted as guardians of peace. The Republic does not need to exist in order for the Code to be relevant.

 

then Luke would have known he couldn't marry, and other things that the EU ignored. That's the thing.

Part of that was because those practices were created before the knowledge of what was in the prequels was around. In any event, those were parhaps the things that Yoda felt had been too strict and rigid in the past. The also aren't directly part of the Code above anyway.

 

The EU posits that all this Jedi Lore was "lost" and yet if Yoda taught it all to him, then it wasn't.

Not everything was lost. And lots was recovered and learned from others, since there were Jedi in the post-ROTJ EU that had direct connections to the OR Jedi order, as well as information sources that were found. So something as central as the Jedi Code could certainly be obtained by Luke even if it wasn't from Yoda.

 

Is that Prequel era EU or post-ROTJ EU?

Mainly the prequel EU. However, the latest post-ROTJ EU shows the Jedi adopting many of the training practices of the old order.

 

It's just that we need not assume because he built one, that all Jedi have to build one, or they can't become Jedi.

I am not assuming from that. I am going by sources that specifically say that in the OR the Jedi did such a thing. Whether they could not become a Jedi without building one may have been left up the discression of a Master, but as a general rule we are told explicitly that they do.

 

You're assuming this is a "rule" of the Jedi Order that was true in the Old Republic as well as the New Republic. Where is the evidence for that? I don't even see where this rule is applied to Luke, it's just coincidence, and yet people assume that Luke's actions are in keeping with an unbroken tradition?

I am not assuming anything. All I am saying is that a rule that we are explicitly told about that applies to the OR Jedi is fulfilled by Luke, either intentionally or unintentionally. We don't see it in ESB or ROTJ because that aspect hadn't been dreamed up yet. Regardless, when it is applied after the fact, the requirement is met.

 

But the situation was such that he had to do something different. Clearly the Old Jedi failed, so he had to do something different and drastic with Luke. Should we assume that Luke's New Jedi were trained identically to the Old?

Not identically. But not identically does not mean they did everything completely differently with no carryover.

 

This was were a nice bit of EU revisionism actually made a little bit of sense. We're told that so many old traditions and rules were dispensed with because the Old Jedi were infected with hubris leading to their downfall. But then again, the desire on the part of the authors for conflict within the order meant they made their own mistakes. How many of Luke's pupils fall to the Dark Side? Plenty. He's definately no Yoda (he lost 20 students in 800 years??).

Interestingly the new Jedi order is starting to go back to the older ways (training young children instead of adults, reintroducing the master/apprentice system, and so on) precisely because of the problems that arose. The flaw of the old order that Yoda admits to is that it was not flexible enough to changing times. That is not to say that the rules that were in place were never valid in the first place.

 

So the "Jedi Trial" is just to use a snap-together Lightsaber Kit to put some parts together? I always wondered how much work actually had to be done on their part to get a passing grade. So one could just take a saber apart and put it back together again?

I don't know all the specifics, but perhaps it was to make a unique lightsaber. Apart from the potential Grievous easter egg theory, that would explain why all the lightsabers are at least slightly different.

 

Besides Clone Wars, I saw a scan of a page from one of the Tales of the Jedi (?) comics that showed a few metal parts to make a hilt and a big hunk of green crystal. Is that the source you're talking about? Or what else?

Various novels and comics. Corran Horn made his from a swoop handle, IIRC. Another OR Jedi actually made one with a handle of wood. Even KOTOR has you construct your own lightsaber as a part of your training. In general, there are many examples that predate the Clone Wars series. It is merely the latest.

 

Because the lightsaber is the symbol of the Jedi and that weapon "is their life." And perhaps if as you say they are losing them all the time, it is important to know how to construct a replacement.

 

Is Obi-Wan's statement to Anakin a quotation from the Jedi code? I thought the Force was their life, not their weapon...

Not the Code, no. But he did say, "This weapon is your life".

 

Or it is important to have mass production facilities, since they don't have time to constantly be building the things uniquely by hand. Build your first one for some Jedi ritual? Fine. Building every single one every time you lose one? Pointless annoyance.

The Jedi did lots of things for pointless annoyance.

 

Which is what, novel, comic? Never heard of it (but then I haven't read everything).

Sourcebook.

 

But which part of the EU, that's what I'm asking. Specific sources, not just "the EU says" because I'm sure the EU says a lot of things, no offense.

I can't remember specific books, but I have seen it in one of the novels, as well as comics and KOTOR.

 

So Luke pulls his lightsaber from the snow. Trial #1 accomplished.

Which is only part of it. Things such as sensing are also a part of it. But yes.

 

Never seen in the movies. Trial #2 unaccomplished. Yoda cut off Luke's questions. And what questions did he ask Yoda... You know Yoda? What am I doing here? Is Darth Vader my father? Is the Dark Side stronger? And sacrifice Han and Leia? etc.

You have it backwards. The Master asks the student questions.

 

He builds his saber after all that training. Isn't it odd that neither Obi-Wan or Yoda says one word to Luke about his saber construction either before or after? Funny if this is Trial #3...

Again, this came about at the time of the prequels, so of course we don't see it in the OT specifically. Even so, Luke does meet that requirement.

 

Oh right, so Luke's facing Darth Vader again has nothing to do with facing his fears or eliminating an evil, rather it's just to make sure he gets in some lightsaber practice. Trial #4 accomplished.

Whether this is what counted as duel training, I don't know. In any event, one does not prevent the other.

 

Hmmm. I guess this one goes unaccomplished in the movies. But in the novelisation he blocks Sideous's lightning for a second or two before he gets blown over. Trial #5 failed.

I'm not sure what using the Force to defend oneself really entails, and whether using the force you guide your lightsaber would be sufficient.

 

It's questionable if this is part of the Old Jedi, as for the most part the Jedi (except when forced by necessity) always go in pairs: masters with padawans in tow, or a pair of Jedi or more. Yoda seems to be the exception, as he travels into dangerous situations by himself. We never see Mace Windu's Padawan, but whenever he ventures out, he always takes Jedi with him.

The Jedi only needs to complete such a mission, and does not necessarily mean that is the normal procedure for Jedi knights. But we do see Jedi working on their own from time to time.

 

Did you ever play Jedi Outcast/Academy? Tell me there's no evidence for mass production in those games's storylines.

What are you refering to?

[Astrotoy7]

...Now where's my prune juice????

 

lolz... thats the warriors drink !! [/sT TNG]

 

yes, lightsabers.... my fave was Corram Horn's, tis silver, its 'blade' can be adjusted in length, and its hilt was made from a speeder bike handlebar shaft = awesomez. He has been one of my fave of the new jedi, too bad they are turning him into a patsy in the Dark Nest books

 

mtfbwya

[arkodeon]

I don't think Mace had a padawan at the time of the movies...o.o

[MachineCult]

I don't think Mace had a padawan at the time of the movies...o.o

That is correct, by the time of the movies his padawan was on the Jedi council.

[Prime]

He has been one of my fave of the new jedi, too bad they are turning him into a patsy in the Dark Nest books

Boy, you said it.

[Astrotoy7]

@ Kurgan...is it just my compy or is the vbCode not working on your post #38. Im getting one huge block of text , which Ive checked for correct [x][/x] coding and it was all OK ! I wonder whats going on.... Maybe you mentioned Wiki in it I warned you about that !!

 

(I have a screencap if you dont believe me !)

 

mtfbwya

[Henz]

The reason why only Jedi/Sith make and wield lightsabers is because they are the only people who can safely and effectively use them.

Lightsabers are not mass produced, and from the films I see no reason for thinking otherwise.

The extra lightsabers given to Anakin and Obi Wan could have come from anywhere. A council that has lasted for thousands of years gets through several generations of members, and many of them will have died from old age. So it's not hard to believe that extra lightsabers would collect in the cupboard.

As for Grevious having Obi Wan and Anakin's hilts in his collection; he obviously copied them after going online and seeing them as "Handle's of the month" in the "What Lightsaber?" magazine website.

[Prime]

The reason why only Jedi/Sith make and wield lightsabers is because they are the only people who can safely and effectively use them.

Based on what? Grievous is neither Jedi or Sith, and he is one of the most deadly users around. At a time when Kenobi and Yoda are the only Jedi left, he says that lightsabers are still used in some galactic quarters. They are obviously not Jedi. Kenobi also hands his father's saber to Luke and isn't all "OMFG be careful with that!"

[Maverick5770]

Yet, the jedi in all stupidity never once thought to train republic soldiers in using them. Same for the stormtroopers. Nineteen years with hardly any bother and the emperor never thought about training them to use them. If anyone knows anything about this, please tell me because it really bugs me.

There was a short story a while back in a star wars insider about Vader and the Emporer trying to make stormtrooper dark jedi's, complete with the force and lightsabers. However the experiment didn't go to well, the one group was stronger and they tried to killthe emporer and the other ones just got turned into soldiers.

[Henz]

Based on what? Grievous is neither Jedi or Sith, and he is one of the most deadly users around. At a time when Kenobi and Yoda are the only Jedi left, he says that lightsabers are still used in some galactic quarters. They are obviously not Jedi. Kenobi also hands his father's saber to Luke and isn't all "OMFG be careful with that!"

 

Well both of your examples were either trained in Jedi arts or soon to be so, so there's not a lot that your point is based on either. What I'm saying is that the lightsaber is a tool of the Jedi/Sith, and they use lightsabers because in a Jedi's hand they become much more powerful and useful than they are in most, where normally, it would be little more than an oversized light up tin opener.

[Prime]

Well both of your examples were either trained in Jedi arts or soon to be so, so there's not a lot that your point is based on either.

You said that only Jedi and Sith can safely and effectively use lightsabers. I gave you an examples that show that that is not correct.

[PoiuyWired]

It might be weird but I would like to point out:

 

What means to be "building your own saber" ??

 

Surely it does not mean by smite your metal out of mineral ore and creat your battery pack by hand and....

 

Yes, I would like to point out that maybe the "shells" of sabers are pre-made, or at least, a bunch of ready mde parts are available for the more "common" and non complicated parts. You maybe there is already a huge collection of hilt parts, grips, on/off/reset buttons, streamers and what not for building sabers, along with a bunch of different pre-made tit-bits for the construction work.

 

So obviously there would be sabers with similar hilts, maybe they just happens to be built from Hilt style B-A01, with Ziggy Series grip, Tamiya switches and Wave on/off lights. Just the same combination from the more available parts really. Not everyone would use a Rancor tooth as the "start button" of your weapon.

 

Maybe this sounds funny, but as we know it there is quite some daman for sabers, training or not. And we do know sabers do subject to wear and tear. So it would be reasonable for jedis to mass produce the common parts in some way, and you don't need to be force sensitive to build things like wires and grips.

 

Sure the delicate parts like the crystal calibration would be left to individual jedis, but those would not affect the look of the saber too much, as we know it most sabers would be blue or green... or yellow for faded ones, due to crystals. And I won't be surprised that jedis would forbid the use of red sabers, and discourage colorful ones.

 

"oh master, if shaft can have a purple pimpstick with BMF on it why can't I have the pink one with the Gucci grip and purple streamers and that extra lipstick dispenser?"