Skill Set Suggestions

[Lathain Valtiel]

The solution to this is actually very simple conceptually.

 

Step 1: Make any direct saber strike kill somebody with a gun, no questions asked. Glancing shots take off albout 120 points or so.

 

Step 2: Heavily nerf or remove outright the reduction in damage the player gets for firing an explosive weapon in which they are in the blast radius (even the best gunners choked on this often: if you pull a rocket launcher without the sef-damage reduction on a fast-approaching Jedi, chances are you will smoke yourself in the process. This shouldn't include the DEMP-2, since its radius is way too huge).

 

Step 3: Eliminate autopush. Do it yourselves now that gunners take huge damage from their own weaponry. If they're too close they'll likely kill themselves anyway along with you, no point in you getting away scot free.

 

Step 4: Strip gunners of all force if they attempt to acquire superior gun skills with damage and firing speed much greater than what JA guns already offer. Grant them some Force only if they choose to have subpar gun skills. Grant them full level Force if they swear off guns completely.

 

Step 5: Give gunners who investr properly an appropriate substitute for the Jump power (Jetpack) and Seeing (some kind of goggles?).

[razorace]

That seems reasonable to me. Also, I'm pretty sure that step 2 has already been done.

[Vruki Salet]

Those ideas sound good to me too.

[Lathain Valtiel]

I just outlined exactly what Promod did. Hehehehe.

[razorace]

I never really had much of a problem with Promod, I just didn't like the concepts of lag-based percision and rock-paper-scissors styles.

 

Anyway, on second glance, I'm not so sure about restricting the gun/force skills as outlined in your post. I'd personally rather make it be based on the amount of points required for the higher levels of either. IE, I like the ability to have "hybrid" players with mixed Force and Gunner skills, just where they're not great at either.

[Lathain Valtiel]

That's eaxctly what the system does. It locks out high levels of gun mastery if you take a high level of Force Mastery, even iif in theory you'd have the points for it.

 

You'd be locked into either selecting badass gun skills, badass Force skills, or somewhat badass skills in both. The reason for this is so that nobody for example takes the 'omg ultimate rocket skill' and then goes on to take force up the wazoo.

[UDM]

In other words, what everyone else above suggested

[razorace]

I don't think I was clear. I believe that the player should be able to take both gun skills and force skills to high levels IF they have the skill points. Such a restriction is an unnessicary, arbitrary move in my opinion.

[Lathain Valtiel]

If you split up gun skills into seperate categories, such as 'Light, Medium, Heavy', or into one skill per gun, then you'll simply encourage heavy weapon camping since unless you are quite good many of the small projectile weapons are fairly useless in terms of killing speed.

 

Heck, "I'd" do that, take max rocket launcher or repeater skill and then proceed to dump points into nice Force skills. This would negate the danger of close range heavy gunning since you could employ Protect or Jump, the latter of which tends to be faster but has less range than Jetpacks, and speed is better. Half the reason gunners are superior to Jedi in general IS BECAUSE THEY CAN FORCE JUMP ON DEMAND.

 

Take it from me, who probably knows the base JA saber the best out of anyone currently in this subforum and has nothing at all against putting a repeater orb into you. Appropriate Force jumping sends the potency of a lightsaber against you to its knees. Meanwhile, while the Jedi is missing you you plug them full of holes. This is how I successfully annihilate 99% of people with sabers using guns.

 

If you want gunner vs. Jedi balance you CAN NOT allow otherwise dedicated gunners access to the swiftness of Force Jump (or for that matter Force Speed), and you cannot take any of its power away from Jedi without virtually knocking out their dodging ability against the gunners. You must give the gunners a slower-to-start-up substitute with its own advantage (greater range). The answer is the Jetpack, and nothing like FM3's Jetpack because that thing has way too much range. I implore you to take an example from Promod's jetpack on how such a thing should function ingame and be highly balanced.

[UDM]

It's either gunner or Jedi then?

 

Sounds feasible to me. Though in addition, I still think it'd be cool to grant the gunners bonuses mentioned above, like KOTOR's Feats...

 

Else, why not grant Jedi access to smaller arms? Or allow gunners to have lower tiered neutral force? The purpose is to allow for mix-and-match, but at the same time it doesn't detract from the intention of having skills. For example, I can have force jump level 1 and force sight level 1. However, doing so will remove a large chunk of spare points in my character, so I have to weigh the pros and cons (is it worth it?)

 

Have you guys played System Shock 2? It's a great FPS-RPG, you can get the demo off download.com if you haven't played it. Basically, you are specialised into one of 3 classes at first: Marine (combat), Navy (stealth) and Psi Ops (psionic powers). All 3 have their advantages, but later in the game, as you aquire more cybernetic modules (which are used for upgrading), you can invest in the other 2 classes. For example, if I choose marine with all skills invested in firearms, then later on I can choose to learn stuff from the Navy class such as hacking. Very cool, and there are equal pros and cons, whether you choose to specialise or multi-task

 

Let me give you another example of why it's impossible to be a master of all trades

 

System Shock 2 does it in such a way, that let's say you are of Marine class, and you want to acquir new Psi powers. However, you cannot just directly unlock new Psi powers, for one main reason: you have to first unlock the tier itself, then unlock new psi powers. Thus, if you want to get the cool telekinesis power, first you have to spend 10 points in Tier 1 spells ie. unlock the ability to uh...unlock the spells, then you spend another 8 points on Telekinesis. I think we could implement something like this, if we want a mix-and-match system. Example: players need to spend 10 points to unlock the neutral force powers. So, that's already 10 points wasted. If you want to be a Jedi, then it's a good investment. If you want to be a gunner, then technically, you have wasted 10 points that you could have actually spent on that rifle skill

 

Alright let's assume you've got Force Jump level 2 and Force Speed level 2 already. But what then? You've only got 5 points left! That's only enough for you to get a pistol level 2 and a rifle level 1! You fire so inaccurately, that all your bolts either miss, or get deflected! So you're basically a jack of all trades, but a master of none!

 

Btw I hope this class system can be in a separate game mode ie. a modified Siege. I really enjoy CTF as it is right now, and I'm not eager to see classes and stuff for the default game modes

[da_chimp]

jedi

blade jedi/jedi gardian - like samual.L only really has access to body enhanceing forcepowers along with saber skills

 

combo jedi/jedi sentinal - like obi-wan uses force powers and blade skills but neither can be maxed

 

force jedi/jedi conular - young yoda style jedi lots of force powers but little or no saber skills

 

mercs

assassin - stealth is there weapon

 

bounty hunter - think jango

 

trapper - mines electrofied items

 

Solder

Commander - gets lil npc buds to help him

 

shock trooper - lots of armor high rate of fire weapons for mowing down troops

 

scout - a gadget to see traps, jump pack faster move speed

[Lathain Valtiel]

No, this system would allow hybrids, the catch is that your skills in either class won't be as high. Jedi can take up guns, the catch is that they're weak as hell because they presumably took high Force.

[razorace]

UDM has a good point, perhaps Force Sensitiveness in general should require a large up front point cost.

 

As for Force Jump and gunners, I beleive the issue of the jumping needs to be worked on in general, since the same evasion tactics can work in saber-on-saber battles as well.

 

I've already made it so that DP and FP don't regen while in mid-jump. Beyond that, I suspect that we need to make ALL jumping have an FP cost. Logically, jumping is a very tiring activity.

 

Finally, I think we have two options for balancing DP/FP between different skill sets.

 

1. DP and FP cost are constant, it's the amount of total DP/FP that changes. Personally, I like this strategy because it makes DP/FP drains consistant for players.

2. Make DP/FP cost scalable based on the number of points invested in Force skills.

[UDM]

You'd have to mix the 2 strategies up then. For example, one player may have Force Jump 3 and only Force Speed 1, but another may have Force Jump 1 and Force Speed 1. In that case, you'll have to use Strategy 2

 

Why not have an option for them to invest points in the amount of DP/FP too? Eg. choosing the kind of class that they want, like in the "Create Game" options. So if they want Level 1 FP/DP, then they allocate 10 points into Level 1 FP/DP. If they want level 2, they allocate another 10 points. It could be helpful in limiting mercs' abilities too, since you need tons of force points to jump high

 

Then maybe you could combine the 2 options. DP/FP cost scalable, in combination with total DP/FP changeable

 

-edit-

 

On the sidenote, I just woke up, and I'm supposed to be studying, but I'm tempted to go play OJP again. With bots. I need help...

[razorace]

Hmmm, thats an interesting idea (doing both ideas), but it sounds like it would be difficult to impliment.

 

The DP/FP investment is probably a good idea, but my idea was just to commit the DP/FP levels based on player's total skill point investment in force powers (and possibly other skills to a lesser degree).

[UDM]

Hmm I like that too. Anything's fine with me, actually, as long as we don't see gunners who spam speed or jump, and get away with everything. Something that strikes a good balance, without making the game too overly complex

 

Keeping my eyes peeled for any decision you might be making!

[Darth Cariss]

Let them get both if you like, but there should be some sort of a bonus for gunners who get no Force Powers or Jedi skillz. Just pure gunners.

 

Also, it'd be cool if you added in gadgits as well as just guns. And by gadgits I mean things like Flame Throwers, Jetpacks, Grapple Hooks, Bactas, Nightvision/Thermal Vision (Works like Force Seeing?), E-Web (hopefully made to actually be worth using), Cloaking devices, maybe some poisen darts (like MB), etc. Stuff like that. People love options. Or I do anyway.

[Maxstate]

Let them get both if you like, but there should be some sort of a bonus for gunners who get no Force Powers or Jedi skillz. Just pure gunners.

 

Also, it'd be cool if you added in gadgits as well as just guns. And by gadgits I mean things like Flame Throwers, Jetpacks, Grapple Hooks, Bactas, Nightvision/Thermal Vision (Works like Force Seeing?), E-Web (hopefully made to actually be worth using), Cloaking devices, maybe some poisen darts (like MB), etc. Stuff like that. People love options. Or I do anyway.

 

And smoke thermals

[UDM]

Gadgets would be tons of fun. We could make use of current JKA materials, and simulate more choices. For example, you can get different choices of turrets if you invest more points in Turrets. Or Bactas that boost more health as you invest more

 

If there are cloaking devices, I'd be the happiest gunner alive. Muahaha, it'd be so cool to cloak and follow a Jedi around, then when he's not suspecting anything.. *BANG* +1 frag

[MisterM]

And dont forget sentries and seekers XD

[Darth Cariss]

It would be neat to have 3 levels of Cloaking even, or 3 Levels for all the gadgits. L1 Cloak could be like the base JA Cloaking, makes you invisable, doesn't stop sound, and is seeable like a Predator.

 

L2 could be like L1, except it prevents the character from making any sound, or making footprints on sand or snow (if possible).

 

L3 could be totally invisable? Might be overpowered, but it would be cool. It'd have to be pretty darn expensive though. Totally invisable + disruptor could be an evil combination.

[Lathain Valtiel]

And smoke thermals

 

Bad idea for two reasons:

 

1: You can mod the effect so the smoke doesn't appear, I'm fairly certain you can't stop that. Effects are usually clientside.

 

2: It'll likely make it virtually unplayable for older comps. Eh.

[JRHockney*]

Bad idea for two reasons:

 

1: You can mod the effect so the smoke doesn't appear, I'm fairly certain you can't stop that. Effects are usually clientside.

 

2: It'll likely make it virtually unplayable for older comps. Eh.

 

true. Hmm, what about flashbang thermals? It just make the screen white for the client side and gradually fade to vision. It would do that when explosion goes off close to them or if they are looking at it within a certain distance.

[razorace]

It would be neat to have 3 levels of Cloaking even, or 3 Levels for all the gadgits. L1 Cloak could be like the base JA Cloaking, makes you invisable, doesn't stop sound, and is seeable like a Predator.

 

L2 could be like L1, except it prevents the character from making any sound, or making footprints on sand or snow (if possible).

 

L3 could be totally invisable? Might be overpowered, but it would be cool. It'd have to be pretty darn expensive though. Totally invisable + disruptor could be an evil combination.

Cloaking would be fun, but is there really a EU precenent for such equipment? My impression has been that cloaking devices are too complicated to be small enough to fit on a person.

[UDM]

It was present in KOTOR, a stealth field generator, small enough to fit in the pocket. Would be cool