The new age of Darth Nihilus, Alive Again

[Jediphile]

 

If you click on the masters' bodies after Kreia kills them you get this dialog.

"[This master is dead... drained of his life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]"

 

 

Kreia knows this power, she just does not have any defense for it. Unlike the Exile who is immune.

 

Well, I don't agree with you that this rather vague description alone can be used as a basis for concluding that Kreia has the power. Sorry, but I don't, since it would undermine the plot IMHO. Kreia doesn't simply need the Exile to destroy Nihilus, she also needs him to wound the Force, as I attempted to demonstrate with the quote in my last post. If Kreia had the power, she could do that herself and wouldn't need the Exile to follow her to Malachor V.

[deathdisco]

Kreia thinks she can use the Exile to wound the Force because she subconsciously severed ties to it. Something Kreia cannot do.

[Jediphile]

^^

 

Which is precisely why Kreia does not have the powers of the Exile... or Nihilus.

[Angelos Kumani]

Something to consider as a real possibility of what Kreia did to the Masters - is that she simply severed their ties to the force, like they were going to do to the Exile...after all she does explain to Atton on the Citadel just how much of an impact the force can have on one's life. Is it possible that when she says wants the Master's to see life through the eyes of the Exile, she is referring a life not connected to the force (severed if you will)...if this is the case then it could tie perfectly back into the unique nature of the Exile. We all know that in TSL at the time of Malachor V, the Exile severed himself from the force - we also know that we are led to believe that any other in that situation would have died - giving the Exile his/hers uniqueness. We also know that the Masters are very connected to the force (they can typically feel when others die for crying out loud) - so is it possible that a life severed from the force to them would mean death?

 

I think that Jediphile is correct in assuming that if Kreia could do what the Exile or Nihilus could do - then she would have no need for either of them...

 

As far as her reasons for "teaching" any one, I would be surprised if they did not fill some need of Kreia's - we learn that while at Malachor Kreia can see the future with the force - how are we to know if she didn't see some purpose in Sion or Nihilus to help her reach her ultimate goal (manipulating the Exile into killing the force...or not...Kreia's deeper seated motivations may not be so plain to see...)?

 

Will Nihilus return - I think that we will see some hint of him...whether that be a holocron, or datapad, or whatever - it will surprise us all when more info is revealed about the character...

[Jediphile]

Maybe Kreia simply cut them off from the Force, as they intended to do with the Exile, and then promptly killed them with the Drain Life power.

 

After all she does say...

 

Kreia: "As you would pass judgment on him, I have come to pass judgment on you all."

 

Somehow it would be a cruel fate to cut them off from the force and then kill them, since it would prevent them from becoming "one with the force", as is common to jedi (and sith) upon death. And Kreia is nothing if not vindictive. I think that's what she would consider poetic justice for the masters' arrogance.

 

"He has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!"

 

Kreia returns here to the role of teacher to the masters themselves. And promptly (capitally) punishes them for failing to learn their lessens.

 

"So close to understanding the Force... so close to giving it up. See it through the eyes of the exile, as I have. Endure what he has endured, and perhaps there is the faintest hope that you will hear what he has heard. See it through the eyes of the exile.How could you ever hope to know the threat you face, when you have never walked in the dark places of the galaxy - faced war and death on such a scale. If you had traveled far enough, rather than waiting for the echo to reach you, perhaps you would have seen it for what it was."

 

Kreia is the teacher, but she is testing the masters, not the Exile, and they fail her test utterly when they decide to condemn the Exile. Indeed, they fail to such a degree that Kreia sees no way to reconcile the matter and so decides that their lives are forfeit. That she cuts them off from the force would just be the final indignity in their punishment.

[PoiuyWired]

Interesting thought, maybe Kreia did cut the masters off from the force before she drains them dry.

[deathdisco]

^^

 

Which is precisely why Kreia does not have the powers of the Exile... or Nihilus.

How so? Nihilus was never cut off from the force. The Exile opened the door to that power by creating the echo in the force. Kreia snuffed out three masters in the blink of an eye without a lightsaber. No small feat even for a Sith. Nihilus just happen to be more powerfull snuffing out entire planets.

[PoiuyWired]

No mroe resurrection thick. Though It is established that his sith spirit did live on well into the Legacy era. Maybe an encounter to someone controlled by this spirit would be reasonable, maybe someone who got his mask or something(visas?). But no, no more "resurrected sith" blahblahs.

[Jediphile]

How so? Nihilus was never cut off from the force. The Exile opened the door to that power by creating the echo in the force. Kreia snuffed out three masters in the blink of an eye without a lightsaber. No small feat even for a Sith. Nihilus just happen to be more powerfull snuffing out entire planets.

 

Never the less, Nihilus' power is similar enough to the Exile's that the masters immediately presume the Exile had something to do with Katarr's destruction, so clearly Kreia has demonstrated no ability to use this power, since the masters only ever felt its presence from the Exile at the trial and from Nihilus (though they don't know it was Nihilus) when he destroyed Katarr.

 

The only evidence we have of Kreia possessing any such power is the description of the dead masters that you referred to. I don't know about you, but to me that seems fairly vague, when we take into account that Kreia admires the Exile's abilities and needs them to fulfil her own plans.

 

All we really know is that Kreia killed the three masters (which isn't such an unusual feat in itself) and that she somehow left them void to the force. How she achieved the latter effect is open to speculation, and it certainly seems there are other possibilities than Kreia having the ability drain them the way Nihilus and Exile do. Angelos Kumani and I came up with one possibility rather easily, and there could certainly be others. I still think that's more likely, since giving Kreia the same ability as the Exile and Nihilus still conflicts with her need to manipulate the Exile for his unique powers.

 

No mroe resurrection thick. Though It is established that his sith spirit did live on well into the Legacy era. Maybe an encounter to someone controlled by this spirit would be reasonable, maybe someone who got his mask or something(visas?). But no, no more "resurrected sith" blahblahs.

 

I don't think that "resurrection" is what is being suggested here. At least, I don't think it's accurate for my own suggestion of how Nihilus could appear in KotOR3.

[deathdisco]

It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.

 

It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand.

 

*And he used it to kill an entire planet?

 

{Quietly}Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.

 

*How can anyone have that kind of power?

 

{Chiding}Power? Do you think so?

 

{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing.

 

And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.

 

*That kind of power is impossible.

 

Nothing is impossible with the Force. It is an energy that flows through all living things.

 

And like energy, it may be harnessed, channeled, and consumed at times. It may even be a substance that can burn and ignite.

 

Do not think of his power as one would a weapon, or one of your warships of the Republic. It is terrible, but it is still a subtle thing.

 

The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time.

 

And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did.

 

*How are they able to drain the Force?

 

As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used.

 

Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.

 

*But all life is touched by the Force.

 

Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.

 

It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time.

 

He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew.

 

*How does he use his power?

 

It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing.

 

Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place.

 

That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it.

 

And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi.

 

And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well.

 

There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped on Onderon. The breach must be sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can stop.

 

*=PC response

 

I bolded the most relevant response.

 

It's a rare power but not unique.

[SilentScope001]

Where did you get that dialouge "deathdisco"?

[Jediphile]

Kreia: "It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

Kreia: "The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

 

My spider sense is tingling in contradiction mode...

[SilentScope001]

Kreia: There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped on Onderon. The breach must be sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can stop.

===

We never knew that Nihilus was attacking Onderon until we boarded The Raveger and talked to Nihlius' slave General that was based on Onderon. All we knew was that General Valku allied himself to some Sith Lord, but we didn't know whom at the time. And by then, Kreia has already left your party...

 

My spider sense is tingling in contradicition mode too...

[deathdisco]

Where did you get that dialouge "deathdisco"?

It's in kreia.dlg. You get it when you ask Kreia "What do you know of Visas's master?" It's dependant on a set "Global Variable".

 

Kreia: "It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

Kreia: "The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

 

My spider sense is tingling in contradiction mode...

 

Nope. Anyone touched by the atrocity at Malachore V has the potential to learn this power. Hence,

"It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

The Exile opened this door.

 

Don't get me wrong Kreia is full of contradictions. Like her (IMO) half-hearted attempt to destroy the Force. This is not one of those times.

[Jediphile]

Kreia: "It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

Kreia: "The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

 

My spider sense is tingling in contradiction mode...

 

Nope. Anyone touched by the atrocity at Malachore V has the potential to learn this power. Hence,

The Exile opened this door.

 

I do sense contradiction.

 

HK-47: "I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

 

Meaning that those jedi who survived (except the Exile) all became Revan's fanatic followers. There could be survivors, but most are likely to have died during the Jedi Civil War, either in battle against the Republic and the jedi order, when Revan razed the academy on Korriban, or when the Sith fought among themselves after the war. Why would they return to Malachor to be mere apprentices at the Trayus Academy years later? That doesn't make much sense to me. They would have been far more likely to make their own bid for power, in which case they would have been destroyed by Traya, Nihilus and Sion.

 

Also, if anyone at Malachor can learn this power, then doesn't Bao-Dur have it? He's clearly force-sensitive, and he was certainly there.

 

Or how about Sion?

 

Don't get me wrong Kreia is full of contradictions. Like her (IMO) half-hearted attempt to destroy the Force. This is not one of those times.

 

Well, I don't agree with any of that, actually. I think she is contradicting herself here, but not when it comes to her intent to destroy the will of the Force (not the Force itself).

[SilentScope001]

Also, if anyone at Malachor can learn this power, then doesn't Bao-Dur have it? He's clearly force-sensitive, and he was certainly there.

 

Use this quote:

 

Kreia: "It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

The Exile already had this tactic of using Force Bonds, before the Mandalorian Wars. After Malachor V, when the Exile gave up the Force, the Sith observed The Exile using these Force Bonds to surivie, or learnt that the Exile did that using the teachings of the True Sith. It is this techinque of the Force, that of Force Bonds, that the Sith Order used, including Kreia and Nihlius. Bao-Dur didn't experience its effects, that of Force Bonds, first-hand.

 

And Sion himself uses this techinque. I see Sion as an advanced Sith Assisan. Kreia said that Sith Assisans use Force Bonds to make themselves more powerful...and since I see Sion as a Sith Assisan, then Sion uses the Force Bonds to make him more powerful.

 

Malachor V had nothing to do with this techinque, expect with the Exile giving it up, and the Sith Lords seeing it, and learning from it.

 

This is not the exact quote, but, if you kill off the Jedi Masters, then:

 

"Choose the right echo, and all with be destroyed. And there are those that feed on such deaths, and when there is no more, they will feed upon themselves. It is your gift to the galaxy, Exile.

 

Also, Bao-Dur was not a Jedi. He had the Force, but so do every living creature. He may also not be good with Force Bonds. Hence, he did not turn to the Dark Side or die, as he did not hear the screams that he has caused. Hence, he did nto fall.

[deathdisco]

They would have been far more likely to make their own bid for power, in which case they would have been destroyed by Traya, Nihilus and Sion.

Had they been more powerful they would have. There are plenty of mediocre Jedi. Survival of the fittest. They were lower in the hierarchy.

Also, if anyone at Malachor can learn this power, then doesn't Bao-Dur have it? He's clearly force-sensitive, and he was certainly there.

 

Or how about Sion?

As SilentScope001 pointed out, he wasn't a Jedi. He had no knowledge of the Force. Sion possibly is well capable too.

Nihilus is the "pinnacle", killer of worlds, no one else comes close with this power. He cannot be defeated by Traya or Sion. This is the importance of the Exile in regards to Nihilus. She is the only one that can stop him thus saving the galaxy.

 

 

I will disagree with SilentSCope001 on the importance of Malachor. Force bond is one part of the equation. Malachor is a planet full of dark side energy. Add the massive loss of life at the final battle plus the Exile's force bond and severing ties to the Force, you get an echo that starts a chain reaction within the Force. This is one of Kreia's lessons in the story. Your actions can cause reprecussions elsewhere.

Well, I don't agree with any of that, actually. I think she is contradicting herself here, but not when it comes to her intent to destroy the will of the Force (not the Force itself).

Eh? Really, because you sound like you agree with me. I (IMO) never belived she wanted to destroy the Force itself. Hence "half-hearted attempt". It's the will of the force she despises. The death of the Force means the end of all life.

[Jediphile]

The Exile already had this tactic of using Force Bonds, before the Mandalorian Wars. After Malachor V, when the Exile gave up the Force, the Sith observed The Exile using these Force Bonds to surivie, or learnt that the Exile did that using the teachings of the True Sith. It is this techinque of the Force, that of Force Bonds, that the Sith Order used, including Kreia and Nihlius. Bao-Dur didn't experience its effects, that of Force Bonds, first-hand.

 

Au contraire:

 

Bao-Dur: "Never, General. It had to be done.My hands destroyed the Mandalorians. I cannot be forgiven for that.Even if I did it out of hatred of the Mandalorians?My feelings are bad enough without having to worry about Jedi problems. My anger is nothing compared to the blood on my hands.That might be the truth, but I don't want to see it that way. I can't just ignore the blood on my hands.Maybe that's just the shield that I need to stay sane.Even if there isn't, I still feel like I need to do something, to make up for it.I have the same fear as you, General. I've seen the crimes of fallen Jedi. I'm afraid I could too easily travel down that same path.If you don't mind, there are some repairs that need my attention.Under your guidance, I feel like I could overcome my anger."

 

Bao-Dur: "Not since Malachor. It is always in my dreams. I remember the ships.I dreamt of Malachor. I remember the ships.The last stand of the Republic. The tattered remnants of our fleet, the largest we could gather, but it was damaged, weakened and vulnerable.The Mandalorians couldn't resist. They tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back.Yet this time, there were no reinforcements for either side. Revan had been delayed out-system by Mandalorian scout ships. By the time he arrived, it was too late.And beyond Malachor, there were no more Mandalorians left to die.I remember standing on the bridge with you and watching the destruction of the Republic - watching ships full of soldiers and Jedi burn and die.I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me.You didn't say anything - just a nod.Events move quickly then, even in my dreams. Flashes, explosions, you - falling. I could feel the pain around me.And then the memory. The drifting hulks of the Mandalorian ships, the dead - allies, friends, strangers.And then the echo. Lingering. The sound I awaken to in my nightmares.Does anyone deserve the Mandalorians' fate? Even some of their conquered worlds fared better.Glorious? It was nothing more than a slaughter. A slaughter caused by one of my creations.Blame lies with me, for creating it. The situation forced your hand, anger forced mine.You realized that unless action was taken, the fleet would be destroyed, and the Republic would fall.None of us realized the magnitude of what we unleashed.{Fade out}You're right about that.We were together at Malachor. I don't know if anyone else could understand."

 

It's quite clear to me that Bao-Dur experienced this at a far more intense level than most others. Yes, the Exile opened the door, but Bao-Dur is the one person who was close to the Exile at that moment. That's where the special relationship between the Exile and Bao-Dur comes from - they're like old war buddies who have experienced the same horror and can share it only with each other. That's what Bao-Dur means, when he questions if anyone else could understand. And he understands the Exile far better than any jedi or sith, since he shares the responsibility with the Exile. The thing is that they both blame themselves for the destruction on Malachor V - the Exile for having ordered it as a general and Bao-Dur for creating the MSG in the first place. And they also both absolve the other - Bao-Dur absolves the Exile, because he thinks that the Exile had no choice (as stated above). The Exile, however, assumes blame and gives none to Bao-Dur, because Bao-Dur simply created the MSG, while the Exile was the one to decide to use it.

 

Jedi or not, that's a powerful bond right there indeed, and it's far more significant than any the Exile could form with most force sensitives. And note that the Exile's bond is not limited to jedi and sith - both Atton and Handmaiden are clearly affected by it even against their will and even if they are not jedi or sith.

 

If ANYONE other than the Exile should know this power, then it should be Bao-Dur.

 

And Sion himself uses this techinque. I see Sion as an advanced Sith Assisan.

 

I've seen nothing in the game to suggest that Sion has this power. If he did, then why doesn't he ever use it?

 

Kreia said that Sith Assisans use Force Bonds to make themselves more powerful...and since I see Sion as a Sith Assisan, then Sion uses the Force Bonds to make him more powerful.

 

Whatever Kreia says, the assassins also never use this power. Indeed, the Exile even says that if they're all as powerful as the assassins they meet on Peragus, then they have little to fear...

 

Malachor V had nothing to do with this techinque, expect with the Exile giving it up, and the Sith Lords seeing it, and learning from it.

 

No, no, no. Sorry, but I must disagree again. My apologies in advance.

 

Remember the meeting of the masters on Dantooine:

 

"It is not the strength of a Jedi you feel."

 

"He's right. It's... all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now. You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds - only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?"

 

"But what's worse, is that bonding you have - it hasn't gone away. It's gotten stronger, and the more attachments you form, the more you draw others to you.And that is why you are a threat to us all."

 

"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such Jedi to consume and kill? For you, Malachor was that crucible. "

 

Pretty clear to me that the location - Malachor - is entirely crucial from this. And also:

 

Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

 

Also, Bao-Dur was not a Jedi. He had the Force, but so do every living creature. He may also not be good with Force Bonds. Hence, he did not turn to the Dark Side or die, as he did not hear the screams that he has caused. Hence, he did nto fall.

 

Note the bold-faced quotes from Bao-Dur above. He basically says the exact opposite himself. At least that's what it looks like to me.

 

Had they been more powerful they would have. There are plenty of mediocre Jedi. Survival of the fittest. They were lower in the hierarchy.

 

Well, TSL is almost a full decade after Malachor V. It seems pretty wierd that all those mediocre fallen jedi would have survived that long without achieving much in the sith order, since it is known for its brutality - you either grow more powerful or you bite the dust. I mean, ten years? All of them?!? That seems to stretch credibility pretty far, if you ask me...

 

As SilentScope001 pointed out, he wasn't a Jedi. He had no knowledge of the Force. Sion possibly is well capable too.

Nihilus is the "pinnacle", killer of worlds, no one else comes close with this power. He cannot be defeated by Traya or Sion. This is the importance of the Exile in regards to Nihilus. She is the only one that can stop him thus saving the galaxy.

 

That begs the question of what makes Nihilus so special, if Kreia and Sion weren't. Also we don't know that Sion was on Malachor V (though I do find it likely), and we actually don't know that he was even a jedi or force sensitive at the time.

 

Eh? Really, because you sound like you agree with me. I (IMO) never belived she wanted to destroy the Force itself. Hence "half-hearted attempt". It's the will of the force she despises. The death of the Force means the end of all life.

 

As I see it, Kreia doesn't want to destroy the force, she just wants to destroy its will. She's like Ahab in Melville's "Moby Dick", who is at war with god.

 

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

 

Look closely to what she says. It's not really the existence of the Force that she hates - if she did that, then she would hate all life and be like Nihilus, since you cannot separate life and The Force.

 

Qui-Gon (in Episode I): "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force."

 

Kreia doesn't hate life. Indeed, it's the fate that is imposed on people in general that she hates. If she didn't care about other people, then it would not matter to her. But she clearly cares that the Force, when seeking to impose balance, has the consequence that "countless lives are lost." If Kreia did not care about those lives, then she would have no cause to hate the Force. Clearly she does care. She hates the manipulative, fate-imposing WILL of the Force, not just for what it dictates to her, but for what its very ability to impose its will on ANYONE. So she doesn't want to kill the Force. But she does want to kill or at least deny or defy the WILL of the Force.

[SilentScope001]

The power I was talking about that the Sith Assisans have is not the same as the "NihliusDrain" ...I'm talking about the Exile having Force Bonds and therefore becoming more stronger by being nearer to his foes, stealing their Force. Kreia said the Sith Assisans has done the same thing. It is the stealing the Force.

 

Hm...let me see. I believe your point of Kreia hating the will of the Force, and not the Force itself, but we got to find a way to end this inconstanty.

===

Bao-Dur:

I didn't get his quote, since I didn't unlock Bao-Dur's infulence options. Thanks for telling me about it. Hm...He saw the disaster. He saw it. All Jedi were supposed to have died, or turned to the Dark Side. Bao-Dur wasn't a Jedi. But he saw it, and he felt it, as his quotes said...He has some Force Bonds. Since the Exile and Bao-Dur are close, you wonder why Bao-Dur didn't get the same power. And why didn't he fall. I'm going to have to guess that Bao-Dur maybe did not learn anything from this...that Bao-Dur saw the deaths and turned away, not learning anything from it. Prehaps he has also given up the Force too in order to avoid the pain. Maybe he fell to the Dark Side. Prehaps Bao-Dur died on Malachor V, and what remains is nothing.

 

Or maybe only the Exile was the one who got the wound, and nobody else. Bao-Dur was the closest to the Exile, and was on the verge...but never gotten to the point...as the Exile did.

 

Okay, I admit it. Game has gotten some holes. BUT, we have to fill in those holes somehow. I'm going to have to state that what happened at Malachor V that is important is the Force Bonds and attach as little honor as possible to that grey planet. Or not. Malachor V is possibly an important ground for teaching, for transmitting knowledge and the Dark Side, but the teaching that it gives is the teaching of Force Bonds.

 

I guess anything that makes the story more enjoyable is a good idea. By providing these holes, it makes the story seem a bit weaker than I thought it was, but I hope we can come up with an agreement that can close these holes.

 

I've seen nothing in the game to suggest that Sion has this power. If he did, then why doesn't he ever use it?

 

The goal of these Sith Assisans is to hunt down and kill off all the Jedi. Sion hates Jedi and want to hunt down and kill off all the Jedi. Sounds familar, huh? Hence, I think Sion has these Sith Assisans to hunt down Jedi, and I speculate Sion himself was a Sith Assisan, due to his hatred. I got no quotes or anything for that matter, but it is how I view it, and how I try to fill the holes.

 

Whatever Kreia says, the assassins also never use this power. Indeed, the Exile even says that if they're all as powerful as the assassins they meet on Peragus, then they have little to fear...

 

They do. Basically, they feed off the Force of the Jedi they stalk. They see the Jedi, and then they silently steal the Force. And the Exile was weak in the Force, but as he grows more powerful, so does the Assassins. Kreia said they use this power, but we do not see the beams or such that it happens, it is more subtle, like how the Exile subtley use Force Bonds.

 

That begs the question of what makes Nihilus so special, if Kreia and Sion weren't. Also we don't know that Sion was on Malachor V (though I do find it likely), and we actually don't know that he was even a jedi or force sensitive at the time.

 

Nihlius is the most skilled at Force Bonds. So much so, he made the NihliusDrain and gobble up planets at will. Kreia and Sion and the Exile, well, erm...cannot. Also, Nihlius given up his capacity for rational thought so that he can be consumed by Power. Every other person has not let go of their humanity.

==

Jediphile, while I don't agree with some of your ideas (Bring Back Nihlius), I agree with some of your other ideas (Kreia hates the Will of the Force, and not the Actual Force). You are a good person, with good ideas. I really don't want this to be an argument between two different and conflicting viewpoints about canonality where there is no end. What I want to know is how to plug up these holes.

 

So, Jediphile, I'm going to ask you now: Do you have any ideas? Any pet plots or beliefs that makes sense of the madness? Any ways to make sense of this? Because I don't think K2 could surivie if these holes aren't filled in or explained? I don't have to accept it or not, but I just want to know because I think this hole will need to be filled.

[deathdisco]

Well, TSL is almost a full decade after Malachor V. It seems pretty wierd that all those mediocre fallen jedi would have survived that long without achieving much in the sith order, since it is known for its brutality - you either grow more powerful or you bite the dust. I mean, ten years? All of them?!? That seems to stretch credibility pretty far, if you ask me...

 

Someone has to sweep the floors, cook the food, and scout out Jedi for the master to feed on. You need soldiers and people to do dirty work. You only kill the ones that challenge you.

 

If ANYONE other than the Exile should know this power, then it should be Bao-Dur.

 

You don't know that he can't. Remember, DS Exile is unaware of this power until he kills the masters and instinctively drains them of the Force. Once Bao-Dur was a fully trained Jedi/Sith the possibility exist he might be able to do the same.

 

Now we're drifting into areas wich are harder to substanciate as the game starts giving us less information to go on.

 

As I see it, Kreia doesn't want to destroy the force, she just wants to destroy its will. She's like Ahab in Melville's "Moby Dick", who is at war with god. ...{snip}...

 

At least we agree on something.

[Angelos Kumani]

Perhaps it is out of turn for me to try to speak for Jediphile, but I think that if you look back over all of the posts, that Jediphile has in fact done a good job trying to "fill the holes" as you have asked. I think that the biggest obstacle to understanding any game, is perception. Not just your own perception of the game, but how that perception relates to other's perception of the game. Because we all interpret the game a little differently, it presents this wonderful opportunity to share our ideas and discuss (debate if you will) our perceptions of the game. The only person/persons that would have the authority to answer any of the questions posed on this forum and others with absolute certainty, would be the writers of the story themselves.

 

That being said, I do not think that it should stop our thought processes from trying to come up with answers for the questions that most bother us. My take on some of the things that have been discussed:

 

1. Kreia and the force - My theory on her actions throughout the game have always relied heavily that she is a manipulator. I felt that her most important manipulation was that of "training" the Exile. I always felt that Kreia knew more than she let on, and what she did tell was slipped out to lead you down a certain path. Kreia wanted the Exile to come to Malachor, wanted the Exile to understand the power of the force (whether is was used for good or evil), and she wanted the Exile to travel to the Unknown Regions in search of Revan. I think that Kreia's unique relationship with Revan, was almost matronly...and my geuss was that she learned from her Malachor fueled future sight that Revan would need help from a force user that was just as strong. That is why she left the Jedi Order and sought out the strongest of the Sith to ally and train with, that is why after learning of their weaknesses she would need someone else. And I think that need is what eventually lead her to the Exile. The Exile's unique ability to sever all connection with the force and yet survive was a sign of the ultimate strength - even if in its current state was not ready to face the ultimate test. That is why she trains the Exile, and consequently convinces the Exile to follow Revan's path. I am not sure if Kreia's intention was ever to cause any harm to the force or the will of the force - but rather convince the Exile of the need to find Revan, using whatever means necessary.

 

2. Bao Dur at Malachor V - while Bao Dur was not a jedi, it can't be argued that he was force sensitive. A common theme throughout TSL is that the Exile's companion's (for the most part) are individuals that at one time or another turned away/denied themselves a connection with the force on the level that would make them a force user. For Bao Dur it was druing the Mandolorian Wars - when he felt the destruction that was caused by his MSG, which was fueled by his anger and need for revenge. He felt that he lost control, and to continue down that path was to give into the "darkside". Something that he was unprepared to do...the real question shouldn't be did he turn away from the force, but it should be what is the reaction of forsaking the force by a non force user - when compared to the effect of the same action taken by a force user. I believe that we have our answer in the Exile. A force user would create a wound in the force due to the deeper connection - but would a non-force user create the same thing? I wouldn't think so.

 

I will try to come back later and post some ideas on force bonding and related topics...

[Jediphile]

The power I was talking about that the Sith Assisans have is not the same as the "NihliusDrain" ...I'm talking about the Exile having Force Bonds and therefore becoming more stronger by being nearer to his foes, stealing their Force. Kreia said the Sith Assisans has done the same thing. It is the stealing the Force.

 

Well, my only problem with that power is that it's not verifiable in the plot, so it's pretty free to say that it's there or not as you please. Even if it is there, it has practically no impact on the plot that I can see. So it's a bit of a moot point to me.

 

Hm...let me see. I believe your point of Kreia hating the will of the Force, and not the Force itself, but we got to find a way to end this inconstanty.

 

I don't see it as inconsistent, but I'd agree that the game is not good at explaining it. The production of the game was rushed in the end (and I don't want to open the can of worms about why that was), which meant that the plot was rushed and hurt from the moment you get the masters to meet on Dantooine. Kreia's motives are in there, but it took me a lot of speculation and discussion with people, before it all made sense to me, since it's a topic that is rushed over fast in the game's plot, even though it needs careful explanation.

 

 

Bao-Dur:

I didn't get his quote, since I didn't unlock Bao-Dur's infulence options. Thanks for telling me about it. Hm...He saw the disaster. He saw it. All Jedi were supposed to have died, or turned to the Dark Side. Bao-Dur wasn't a Jedi. But he saw it, and he felt it, as his quotes said...He has some Force Bonds. Since the Exile and Bao-Dur are close, you wonder why Bao-Dur didn't get the same power. And why didn't he fall. I'm going to have to guess that Bao-Dur maybe did not learn anything from this...that Bao-Dur saw the deaths and turned away, not learning anything from it. Prehaps he has also given up the Force too in order to avoid the pain. Maybe he fell to the Dark Side. Prehaps Bao-Dur died on Malachor V, and what remains is nothing.

 

Or maybe only the Exile was the one who got the wound, and nobody else. Bao-Dur was the closest to the Exile, and was on the verge...but never gotten to the point...as the Exile did.

 

Okay, I admit it. Game has gotten some holes. BUT, we have to fill in those holes somehow. I'm going to have to state that what happened at Malachor V that is important is the Force Bonds and attach as little honor as possible to that grey planet. Or not. Malachor V is possibly an important ground for teaching, for transmitting knowledge and the Dark Side, but the teaching that it gives is the teaching of Force Bonds.

 

I guess anything that makes the story more enjoyable is a good idea. By providing these holes, it makes the story seem a bit weaker than I thought it was, but I hope we can come up with an agreement that can close these holes.

 

I think Bao-Dur was affected by what happened at Malachor, but not being a jedi at the time, he was at least partially spared from falling to the dark side. Not entirely, though. He admits to very destructive feelings for the Mandalorians to the Exile.

 

Bao-Dur: "Why did you decide to fight?The war went poorly before Revan and the Jedi lent aid to the Republic. Many of us believed the Jedi to be cowards who were afraid to face the Mandalorian threat.I remembered when word of the Mandalorian attacks arrived on Iridonia.I felt the same way. I remembered when word of the Mandalorian attacks arrived on Iridonia.My people had colonies across the Outer Rim. Many of them were among the first systems to fall.Revenge, and to crush the Mandalorians - to send them back to wherever it was they came from.I did not join because I wanted to protect, though. I hated them. I wanted to destroy them - to give them the mercy they gave the people they conquered.I remember the thrill I felt when we fought them in battle. Victories were rare, but we celebrated every Mandalorian's death."

 

Clearly Bao-Dur was at a very dark state of mind at this point in his life.

 

Bao-Dur: "Do you know how it felt?It's always on my mind, now. That loss of control blinded me, turned me into a weapon.I... just needed to get that off my chest.I couldn't do that. It was almost as though the battle took control of me, drove me forward."

 

I think this part is significant, because Bao-Dur basically admits to having been controlled by his anger and hatred. Dark side beckoning already?

 

Bao-Dur: "I moved around for a couple years. Working as a starship mechanic got me from place to place. I wasn't ready to settle down after the war.As long as I kept moving, I didn't have to think about what happened. Know what I mean?Mostly, I was angry. Angry about what I had done, about why I had done it.Maybe if I had the Force to lean on, I could have worked it out. But then the Force didn't seem to be of much help to others.I was, no doubt. It's hard to face up to yourself sometimes, and for a few years, I couldn't."

 

The fact that Bao-Dur was not a force-user at the time meant that his dark perspectives go make him fall only so far. But he's also shocked away from the darkness by what he has done. Like Anakin, he basically does something horribly and then stands back saying, "What have I done?!?" But unlike Anakin, he doesn't decide to embrace this darkness and instead turns away from it. He is ashamed and disgusted of what he has done and seeks to atone for it. It took him years to settle it, just as it did for the Exile. And I think he healed better than the Exile, who never quite resolved the matter.

 

Bao-Dur: "I'm sure you do.I decided I'd do something constructive. I wanted to make up for the things I'd done in the war.I wanted to design planetary shields, but there weren't many systems with the credits to spare - there was more that needed to be rebuilt than protected.I found out that Telos was going to be the flagship project for the Republic, and it sounded like something good. I saw Telos before the Sith razed it. It deserved a better fate.But Czerka ruined everything. I thought I could force Czerka out on my own, but I guess I can't fix everything myself."

 

This is Bao-Dur's self-imposed penance for what he has done. It was only after doing this, that he was able to move on and leave Malachor in the past. The Exile never quite manages to do that.

 

The goal of these Sith Assisans is to hunt down and kill off all the Jedi. Sion hates Jedi and want to hunt down and kill off all the Jedi. Sounds familar, huh? Hence, I think Sion has these Sith Assisans to hunt down Jedi, and I speculate Sion himself was a Sith Assisan, due to his hatred. I got no quotes or anything for that matter, but it is how I view it, and how I try to fill the holes.

 

To me they're simply sith who want to destroy the jedi. The problem for the jedi was that they struck from the shadows (hence "The Shadow War"). And they could do that, because when the jedi tried to find the sith, they found Nihilus, who was so powerful and destructive that he overshadowed all other sith to the jedi senses.

 

They do. Basically, they feed off the Force of the Jedi they stalk. They see the Jedi, and then they silently steal the Force. And the Exile was weak in the Force, but as he grows more powerful, so does the Assassins. Kreia said they use this power, but we do not see the beams or such that it happens, it is more subtle, like how the Exile subtley use Force Bonds.

 

Well, I still don't see it happening in the game. That they grow more powerful is a game mechanic, if you ask me. After all, all the non-force villains, like the various Exchange gangsters or troops on Onderon, all grow more powerful as you progress through the game as well.

 

Nihlius is the most skilled at Force Bonds. So much so, he made the NihliusDrain and gobble up planets at will. Kreia and Sion and the Exile, well, erm...cannot. Also, Nihlius given up his capacity for rational thought so that he can be consumed by Power. Every other person has not let go of their humanity.

 

That still doesn't tell us very much. Why did Nihilus give up his humanity, for example? I don't see that there was much choice in the matter, though naturally that speaks to my own conjecture for Nihilus' origin.

 

Jediphile, while I don't agree with some of your ideas (Bring Back Nihlius), I agree with some of your other ideas (Kreia hates the Will of the Force, and not the Actual Force). You are a good person, with good ideas. I really don't want this to be an argument between two different and conflicting viewpoints about canonality where there is no end. What I want to know is how to plug up these holes.

 

So, Jediphile, I'm going to ask you now: Do you have any ideas? Any pet plots or beliefs that makes sense of the madness? Any ways to make sense of this? Because I don't think K2 could surivie if these holes aren't filled in or explained? I don't have to accept it or not, but I just want to know because I think this hole will need to be filled.

 

First, thank you for your praise.

 

Second, I think whether these matters constitute plot holes or not depend a lot on your perspective. Personally I think that a lot of stuff, particularly with regards to Nihilus and his apparent connection to the Exile (their powers being so similar that the masters think the Exile had something to do with the destruction of Katarr), is left unexplained because they were to be used in the subsequent KotOR3. After all, the masters tell the exile, that when they felt Katarr die, they felt an absence in the Force that they had only ever experienced before when the Exile stood before them at his trial. And so they assume the Exile to have somehow taught the Sith their new powers. They don't know that there is only one such power - Nihilus. And as I have said before, to me Nihilus is the incarnation of the dark side of himself that the Exile rejected on Malachor V. Revan's plan was for all jedi to either die or fall to the dark side there. And they all did, except the Exile. The fate was dictated by the Force, but the Exile denied it so violently, that he wounded the force, which is what fascinates Kreia.

 

But the dark psyche that he rejected became Nihilus, I think. That's why their powers are similar - because they are pretty much the same person. Not physically, of course. Nihilus is clearly male, while the Exile's gender is optional (and even female in canon), but Nihilus' body is just a vessel for the dark entity that he is.

 

When Nihilus "dissolves" in the game, I think he really "reconnected" with the Exile, who had been in denial about the entire thing for a decade. The Exile being unaware of his own potential is a recurring theme throughout the game. I think the Exile can everything Nihilus does, only he isn't aware of it. He wasn't even aware that he cut himself off from the force, after all.

 

Someone has to sweep the floors, cook the food, and scout out Jedi for the master to feed on. You need soldiers and people to do dirty work. You only kill the ones that challenge you.

 

We're talking about fallen Jedi-turned-Sith here, not the guy appointed to be janitor for the Sith troops.

 

You don't know that he can't. Remember, DS Exile is unaware of this power until he kills the masters and instinctively drains them of the Force. Once Bao-Dur was a fully trained Jedi/Sith the possibility exist he might be able to do the same.

 

I doubt he can, since he never made the choice the Exile did. He was not entirely unaffected, though, as I try to explain above.

 

At least we agree on something.

 

There is hope for us yet

[Vaelastraz]

Interesting discussion.

 

Anyway I'd just wanted to point out that it seems kinda weird that Kotor 2 wanted to have a reason why the Exile grows more powerful in the plot. (her bonds to steal other people's force).

 

It is obvious that the PC and Party members must get more powerful between the start of the game and the end, that's what almost every RPG is about. And that can be somewhat explained by experience points. But it needs no explanation, its an essential RPG element.

 

 

@Jediphile: Very interesting thoughts on Nihilus (a character I can't stand)

So, what do you think happens to the Exile, after she defeats Nihilus and she regains that lost part of herself? Is she capable of consuming worlds, like Nihilus?

[Angelos Kumani]

Jediphile...its almost kind of scary the way our perceptions of the game seem to be on such a similar track.

 

Again you have done a masterful job explaining your perspective, and in doing so helped to explain mine in a little more detail.

 

I promised to try to post something regarding force bonding/draining and well here it is...

 

My thought has been that force bonding isn't necessarily rare, in all fairness to be accurate, I would say that is very common. We are given examples of this by the Masters through out the game (most commonly the bond that forms between Master and Student). But what might be rare, is the exact nature of how a person bonds, the strength of that bond, and that bond's benefits/consequences. The most applicable depiction of this that I can think of is the bond between Kreia and the Exile. It not only has its benefits (force chain) but it definetly had its side effects (transmission of pain).

 

*On a side note, Kreia's assertion that the bond could be lethal I felt was another of her manipulations more than anything else...after all we are talking about the same Exile who was able to sever his force bonds with all those he fought with in the War (granted it did have it's side effects - memory loss, loss of force connection, etc - but it was also that act that saved the Exile's life/prevented his fall to the dark side). So would it be too unreasonable to assume that even if the bond had the strength to be lethal - that with the Exile's history, he/she would be able to protect him/herself from that consequence.

 

It is this bond so easily formed by the Exile (apparently by just being in the vicinity of a force user) that allows him/her to re-establish a connection with the force. We are also told by the Masters that it is the Exile's ability to form these force bonds and "feed" off that connection that leads to his/her strength. But that they do not feel the force within the Exile, even if there is a connection there. But what the Masters fail to say; is that the Exile is able to choose how the others he/she is connected with will either suffer or prosper from that bond. The Exile's companions throughout the game are obviously drawn to the Exile by these bonds - and if it was simply a parasitic relationship they would not gain strength through out the game, they would weaken. However, they seem to get stronger suggesting a symbiotic relationship where both benefit. And this is not exclusive to only the Exile's companions - another good example of it is the Exile's ability to boost the Dantooine Militia's stats (light side choice of course), before they have to fight the Mercs. I think that this suggests that there is more to the Exile than simply being a wound in the force.

 

Although Jediphile has accurately stated there is no physical game proof of the Sith Assassins being able to leech power from force using opponents to become stronger - I think that there is a way to explain what is occuring without the game actually telling us "Sith Assassin drains force from Atton, becomes stronger". I almost imagined the Sith Assassin's being more like the player crystal...meaning that they act more like a sieve than a leech. That is everyone has an aura, the strength of your aura may depend on your connection to the force. So the assassins rather than being taught how to force bond, are taught how to read and gain strength from other's auras. So, just like the crystal captures traces of the Exile's force left behind (emitted, etc.) - so can the Sith Assassins. Again, like the crystal not weakening the player, but providing a medium which unused/unfocused energy can be gathered and then turned into a strength.

 

Nihilus on the other hand is completely different. He does from force bonds. But he does not simply stop at bonding with other force users, he bonds with anything that has the force within itself. He then uses this connection to leech all of the power of the force away from these objects (planets, humans, jedi, etc.) until there is no force left and only death. He has given into the "hunger" and only uses his power to the benefit of himself; slowly weakening, decaying any life that he comes in touch with, feeding his hunger and increasing his strength until the source is dry - and then he moves onto the next source. The very definition of a parasite, is how you can describe Nihilus's relationship witht he Universe.

[Jediphile]

@Jediphile: Very interesting thoughts on Nihilus (a character I can't stand)

So, what do you think happens to the Exile, after she defeats Nihilus and she regains that lost part of herself? Is she capable of consuming worlds, like Nihilus?

 

The Exile would have the potential for it, yes, but then I think he always did. The problem is that in order to use it, he would have to embrace the very dark self that he rejected at Malachor (meaning Nihilus). In this way he would come to terms with what happened and what he did - not least on a psychological level - but it would also mean accepting the darkness inside him and therefore turn to the dark side. My own speculation for a KotOR3 plot had that idea as the very core of a meeting between Revan and the Exile that would take place off-screen and only be learned later. I find that to be the sort of mystery I like to explore, since it speaks to characters we already know and care about. And I know at least The Architect agrees with me

 

My thought has been that force bonding isn't necessarily rare, in all fairness to be accurate, I would say that is very common. We are given examples of this by the Masters through out the game (most commonly the bond that forms between Master and Student).

 

Indeed. Bonds between master and apprentice is so common that it's practically rare that it is absent. In the cut content of TSL, Master Vash makes several comments about this, which I feel we really miss to put the Exile's condition into a more relevant perspective.

 

Vash: "Kaah and I are bonded.It is a normal occurrence between Master and Padawan."

 

Vash: ".Yes, as many Masters and Padawans become with time.The bond can be broken in many ways. If one falls to the Dark Side, the bond may fade and eventually break. This is why, when gripped with fear, Kaah was unable to feel our bond. He assumed I was dead."

 

Vash: "We were mentally bonded.Kaah was pulled to the Dark Side through his fear. He could no longer feel our bond.It is painful to lose one to whom you are bonded. But it is not fatal."

 

Vash on the Exile's bond with Kreia (which is harmful to them both): "That is most unnatural. This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives. Nothing ever happens to us unless we allow it.

 

I've long mused that Vash's comment to look within for the answer to carry some vague clue to greater revelation.

 

But what might be rare, is the exact nature of how a person bonds, the strength of that bond, and that bond's benefits/consequences. The most applicable depiction of this that I can think of is the bond between Kreia and the Exile. It not only has its benefits (force chain) but it definetly had its side effects (transmission of pain).

 

It is very unusual, but how it came to be is uncertain. I think perhaps Kreia created its unusual intensity so that the Exile would have to depend on her and in order for herself to get as close as she possibly could to the Exile's force wound. But that's speculative. Kreia wouldn't be beyond something like that, manipulative old hag that she is! I rather like her

 

*On a side note, Kreia's assertion that the bond could be lethal I felt was another of her manipulations more than anything else...after all we are talking about the same Exile who was able to sever his force bonds with all those he fought with in the War (granted it did have it's side effects - memory loss, loss of force connection, etc - but it was also that act that saved the Exile's life/prevented his fall to the dark side). So would it be too unreasonable to assume that even if the bond had the strength to be lethal - that with the Exile's history, he/she would be able to protect him/herself from that consequence.

 

Actually, I do suspect that the bond is potentially lethal. When Kreia tells the Exile - through Atris - that she will kill herself on Malachor if the Exile does not follow her there, it doesn't sound like some idle threat to me. And clearly the Exile took it seriously enough to follow her.

 

It is this bond so easily formed by the Exile (apparently by just being in the vicinity of a force user) that allows him/her to re-establish a connection with the force. We are also told by the Masters that it is the Exile's ability to form these force bonds and "feed" off that connection that leads to his/her strength. But that they do not feel the force within the Exile, even if there is a connection there. But what the Masters fail to say; is that the Exile is able to choose how the others he/she is connected with will either suffer or prosper from that bond. The Exile's companions throughout the game are obviously drawn to the Exile by these bonds - and if it was simply a parasitic relationship they would not gain strength through out the game, they would weaken. However, they seem to get stronger suggesting a symbiotic relationship where both benefit. And this is not exclusive to only the Exile's companions - another good example of it is the Exile's ability to boost the Dantooine Militia's stats (light side choice of course), before they have to fight the Mercs. I think that this suggests that there is more to the Exile than simply being a wound in the force.

 

The Exile's unique ability is how he easily forms force bonds with others. The masters say it so well on Dantooine.

 

"surely you are familiar with Force bonds.It is the bond that develops between apprentice and Master, when one truly understands another. It is developed over time, through understanding of each other.Yet you do it so easily, and we do not know why. You make connections through the Force, and it resonates with those who travel with you. The resonance is even greater when they, too, are Force Sensitive. You draw them to you... and your actions affect them, strongly. Such bonds can happen at times of great conflict, or when another Jedi dies close to another... it echoes. You are sensitive to such things - you have a deep connection to life around you.And when that life dies, then you suffer. Their screams become your screams.And the screams of a thousand Jedi dying, the screams of an entire people dying, are more than anyone who can feel the Force can bear. For one such as you who feels life so strongly, who makes such connections so easily...The silence you heard within yourself after Malachor was not silence. It is death, so loud as to deafen you... you carry all those lives with you still. Your actions affect others more than you know. You draw others to you, especially those strong in the Force. When you suffer, their spirit echoes it. And when they are in pain, their pain becomes yours. This bond - it travels both ways. When you feel pain, or strong emotion, it resonates within you.We do not know. But it is not the first time you've felt the weight of so many lives.And that is why Malachor echoes within you still. And that is why the Mandalorian Wars echo within you still. We did not cut you off from the Force. You were merely deafened to it, because of that last battle of the Mandalorian Wars. The screams of countless thousands, Jedi and Mandalorians, crushed by the planet's gravity, annihilated. Their lives still scream across the surface of that dead planet - and within you. To hear the Force over such pain... it is not possible. It was too much for any Jedi to endure... and it is a wonder that you did not die there when thousands perished, all those you had fought with and struggled with. You cut yourself off, because you had to if you were to survive. You had hints of it on the war on Dxun. Malachor was simply the final blow."

 

Nihilus on the other hand is completely different. He does from force bonds. But he does not simply stop at bonding with other force users, he bonds with anything that has the force within itself. He then uses this connection to leech all of the power of the force away from these objects (planets, humans, jedi, etc.) until there is no force left and only death. He has given into the "hunger" and only uses his power to the benefit of himself; slowly weakening, decaying any life that he comes in touch with, feeding his hunger and increasing his strength until the source is dry - and then he moves onto the next source. The very definition of a parasite, is how you can describe Nihilus's relationship witht he Universe.

 

I see Nihilus rather as a Force Vampire. He is Dracula of Star Wars. He is an undead, ghostly entity that continues to exist because he sucks life from the living, leaving them dead or worse. But no matter how much he does it, he can gain no true life for himself, but merely continue to extend his own existence. He is nothing but a void, as indicated by his name ("nihil" is latin for "nothing").