M$-78 in game trailer

[Henz]

A question for those going on about K2 being unfinished.

 

Is K1 in your opinion finished? or unfinished?

 

Finished in the sense of cut content being well hidden.

[Emperor Devon]

Nor do I have to. Indeed, I don't even have to agree that it's a plothole, which is the case here, and therefore irrelevant to me.

 

Then I shall apply that theory to your argument. If you ignore my points while pressing your own, this debate will obviously go nowhere.

 

There is no evidence I know of to support the idea that the fall of Malak & Revan was to be tied up,

 

Whether they planned to tie it up or not, that doesn't matter. My point is that there is a large plothole. While I'm glad it has been explained since, it left me wondering after I finished KotOR.

[PoiuyWired]

Finished in the sense of cut content being well hidden.

 

Well, Point being, a finished product means loose ends from cut content would not be found so easily in normal play, annoying the player and/or giving player the idea that something they have missed exist even after repeated gameplay. Such is the case when it comes to HK47/HK50 incident. That the lines clearly indicate something is to be done.

 

Areas you can find using cheat is ok, cause you are not SUPPOSED to get to them during normal gameplay. In fact, those secret bits are actually good, sort of an easter egg.

[Vegard Aune]

About what the topic was really about, I've checked through the trailer several times looking for the M4-78-shot, but I can't find it. Can someone give a screenshot?

[90SK]

In The Sith Lords trailer, there is one shot where the camera is circling the landing pad on M4-78. Just thought I'd throw that out there even though we all know that it was originally intended to be in the game but was cut due to time shortage. But it just shows that with another 2-3 months, we could've had a finished kotor game, M4-78 and all.

 

 

Upon watching the trailer in the game, it really isn't a point of reference for what was going to appear and what wasn't. It looks to have been made very early in production: characters like Mandalore don't have proper textures, there are a lot of K1 heads being used, as well as bodies and in one case a robe texture over a K2 robe (I was really surprised when I saw that one).

 

M4-78 was cut for time constraint reasons and for redundancy (as the story was similar to Peragus, apparently). If the planet were important to the plot of the game, it wouldn't have been cut. It would have been a nice addition, but they really didn't "cut" anything except the prospect of fully executing the concept of the planet.

[Emperor Devon]

If the planet were important to the plot of the game, it wouldn't have been cut.

 

There actually were some plans to make M4-78 an important part of the plot very early on in development. Bao-Dur was supposed to die there and the Force bond with Kreia was supposed to be explained in more depth, but I think those were cut even before the planet was.

 

M4-78 was cut for time constraint reasons and for redundancy (as the story was similar to Peragus, apparently).

 

Thankfully, M4-78 will not have a very similar story to Peragus. The only similarities I can think of would be there are a lot of droids, and gas killed off some people.

[igyman]

Whoof. Another ''Is TSL finished, or not?'' discussion.

 

OK, here it goes - you may, or may not agree, but the fact is that TSL is, storywise, an unfinished game. The HK-50 factory (the biggest reason for these discussions) is a major part of the plot and it isn't in the game. That's a fact. And it's made a lot of people agitated (including me). There are many other plotholes, some major, some minor (I'd have to replay the game to present a detailed list and quite frankly I don't want to do that) and some of them are responsible for certain bugs in the game (for example there's a dialogue option in the Rebuilt Enclave that, if selected, instantly ends the conversation and kills the three masters, no regular cutscene, Kreia appears there and you have to talk to her to get a cutscene and not the one that should have been played).

Like other people said, wheter a game is finished or not is determined by how well is the cut content hidden and the plotholes wrapped up. In TSL it has been done poorly, probably due to lack of time, but the reasons are not important right now, what's important is that because of that this game is unfinished.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing TSL, despite its drawbacks, but my point is that story-wise, it's not as fine tuned and wrapped up as the first part was.

 

@Emperor Devon: About that 'major' plothole from K1 you mentioned. I dunno, it wasn't explained in detail in the game, but it was explained to a point by that vision of Revan and Malak discovering the first Star Map. Maybe it wasn't explained completely, but it felt wrapped up, like the rest of the story.

[Emperor Devon]

Maybe it wasn't explained completely, but it felt wrapped up, like the rest of the story.

 

The reasoning behind why the main antagonists of the series founded the empire that threatened the galaxy was left entirely unexplained in KotOR. How does that make it feel wrapped up?

[igyman]

Actually, when I think of it a little further, it was explained completely.

 

OK, here's what we know. When Revan and Malak found the first Star Map on Dantooine, they, or rather Revan (Malak simply followed him), were drawn by it and decided to find the missing pieces of the puzzle. At the end of the road was the Star Forge. This isn't emphasised in the game, but it seems pretty obvious that they discovered that Star Map before they went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, since they didn't return to the Academy after they went to war. It also seems obvious that finding the Star Maps was the real reason why Revan left to fight in the war.

Now, consider this:

- It was said in the game that Revan took his fleet to the Unknown Regions, after they defeated the Mandalorians and it was said that something happened to him there that turned him to the Dark Side.

- We know that he found the Star Forge and used it.

- The Star Forge is in the Unknown Regions.

- The Star Forge is a tool, for lack of a better term, of the Dark Side.

 

I think that the conclusion you can draw from all this is pretty obvious - When Revan found the Star Forge he completely turned to the Dark Side and Malak along with him. They were already tainted when they found that first Star Map on Dantooine.

I know what you're going to ask: Where did that taint come from? And here's the answer: both of them, especially Revan, were refered to as being arrogant and overconfident and who knows what else (mostly by Vrook, if I remember correctly) and when it comes to Jedi, those traits come with a price - the possibility of falling to the Dark Side.

[Emperor Devon]

Being proud alone does not lead to the dark side. Usually something else is needed. I do not think that the Star Forge alone made Revan fall, because he knew it existed before he went out to conquer the galaxy. An good Jedi would've informed the Council.

 

TSL elaborated a bit on Revan's schemes to take over the galaxy, which was well and good, but I think that it should have been explained in KotOR as well.

[igyman]

Well, I did my best. The explanation I posted was good enough for me, but if it's not good enough for you, I guess there's no point in trying to persuade you otherwise. To have more detailed arguments I'd have to replay K1 and right now I don't feel like it. So, to each his own - you have your opinion and I have mine.

[Lantzen]

Im happy that it didnt explain the plans of Revan in K1, then it wouldent be the same as the plans he have in K2, and we would maybe never hear about the true sith. And where the taint came from the beginning, we will maybe never know, but the last step to the darkside is at the first star map, Malak say something if they do this the Jedis will never take them back

[Jediphile]

The "taint" came from Malachor V, where Revan learned of the true Sith in the Trayus Academy. It's unclear how far Revan had fallen from the light at this point, but he was determined in his efforts against the Mandalorians. Perhaps he had already fallen at this point. Or perhaps it was a sacrifice, as Kreia suggests. Which is true is for the player to decide for himself or herself.

 

As I see it, Revan either fell to the corrupt teachings of the Trayus Academy even as he learned of the true Sith and decided he would need to fight them, since they would present a threat to his own emerging empire, or else Revan realised that the true Sith were a threat to the republic that he needed to stop even at the cost of his own soul. Kreia suggests the latter, but we really don't know. Personally, I think it's a little of both - Revan was still benevolent enough to do it for the sake of the republic, but he made the same mistake that Ulic Qel-Droma did - he thought he could wield the dark side as a tool or weapon while avoiding its corruption. And he thought he could do it alone, which is always a mistake for a jedi - the jedi are never alone! Being alone is the mark of the Sith, since there can be no trust (or friendship) among the evil and corrupted.

 

If so, then he erred, for after defeating the Mandalorians and claiming the StarForge, Revan's next war was not against the true Sith but against the republic - his intent to embrace the dark side in order to save the republic had corrupted him, and instead of protecting the republic, it became simply another obstacle he had to subdue, so that his own forces could grow stronger for the subsequent war against the true Sith.

 

But then something unexpected happened. A group of jedi infiltrated Revan's ship, and Malak used the opportunity to betray him. Revan survived, but lost his memories and was captured by the jedi, who reprogrammed his memory, as we saw in KotOR1.

[The Source]

Emperor Devon, Prime, and Redhawke have said all that I believe is true. There are countless of reasons why the 'cut content' would be removed. If there are any issues, I blame it on bad editing. I can see small tiny pieces that were accidently omited, but the majority of the 'cut content' was omited for other reasons. I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted. One could make the argument that they were removed because they were not necessary. There are too many reasons.

 

What drove people to the 'cut content' conspiracy is because modders found the files. If there were no such thing as modders, the average gammer would not know of their existance. Remember, Obsidian wasn't going to say anything. Until a curiosity driven person looked into the files, they didn't have a reason to say anything. People are just upset because they want more game play, and they are mad at how TSL was edited badly.

 

98% of the game was not supposed to be a cliffhanger. If you played the game straight through, covered all the dialouge, you will notice that you should only have a few questions:

 

1. (LS) Where is the Exile going?

2. (DS) Did the Exile survive Malacore?

3. What happened to Revan?

 

I don't see how the HK Factory or M4-78 could have changed or added to the ending. Don't get me wrong, I will enjoy their addition to the game, but they are just a curiosity. I applaud both projects, and I look forward to their endgame. However, I don't take what they create as an impact on the final game outcome. The game was officially finished.

 

To be honest, I have to also agree with another statement. I think the gammer should have been forced to hear about your companions' futures. If we were forced to hear about our friends, I think people will understand that TSL was a completed game.

 

It is very sad that people believe TSL was an incomplete game. There is a difference between 'incomplete' and 'accidental edits'.

 

'Cut Content' = HK-Factory & M4-78 (Intentionally removed for unknown reasons.)

 

'Accidental Edits' = Small tidbits of dialouge and scenes throughout the remainder of the game, which were accidently omited or left behind. (These pieces would include: GoTo vrs. Tiny Droid, What happend to my companions when we hit Malacore, and accidentally leaving in dialouge information about the factory. That is about it.)

 

Everything else is extra.

[Emperor Devon]

It is very sad that people believe TSL was an incomplete game. There is a difference between 'incomplete' and 'accidental edits'.

 

I agree completely. Once Team Gizka finishes their project and Team Bantha and I finish ours, people will realize that they won't make the game any more complete. What will be said then? It'll be interesting to see.

[The Source]

Example for those who need a simple explination:

If you notice below my posts, I usually go back and edit my statements. Why? Because I look over my work for accidental errors (spelling and grammar). Obsidian made the same errors. Instead of spelling and grammar, they accidentally removed or left behind small tidbits.

 

The 'cut content' is not important, and their removal could be for countless of reasons.

 

Emperor Devon - I hear you man. I will probally play the mods that come out of both camps, but I am doing it for a curiosity factor. I think they will add some fun, but they will have very little bearing on the story being told. TSL Restoration teams is adding some of the 'accidentaly' omitted information, but their HK Factory is a nonessentail addition to the story. M4-78 has to be made practically from scratch, and you people are going to be using an artistic liscense. I look forward to everyone's 'creativity'.

 

Edit:: Added::

Restoring the 'cut content' doesn't impress me, for it was omited for any number of reasons.

 

Fixing the errors ('accidental' edits) should have been fixed by Obsidian. It is similar to making spelling and grammar edits for an advertisement. It costs someone money.

[Emperor Devon]

I think they will add some fun, but they will have very little bearing on the story being told.

 

That's pretty much it.

 

M4-78 has to be made practically from scratch, and you people are going to be using an artistic liscense. I look forward to everyone's 'creativity'.

 

There actually was a half-finished rought draft of the story in the dialogue.tlk file, but it obviously had to be added on to. There will be new characters, directions the plot goes, quests, etc. that obviously weren't mentioned there and intended by Obsidian.

[The Source]

There actually was a half-finished rought draft of the story in the dialogue.tlk file, but it obviously had to be added on to. There will be new characters, directions the plot goes, quests, etc. that obviously weren't mentioned there and intended by Obsidian.

That is what I mean. You people are going to use a creative liscense to make filler. Otherwords, when I download the M4-78 mod, I get things based upon your group's creative interest. You may follow some of the 'cut content', but you are creating stuff that Obsidian didn't come up with. You people are creating stuff, so that my visit to the planet doesn't soley come off of the developer's omitted storyboard. You people are just using the 'cut content' to stitch it to the game, so your mod will blend into the gameplay. I can apprechiate what you are doing.

 

Besides that, M4-78 is 'not essential' to the overall story of TSL, and the game is a completed product. All it is suffering from is 'accidental edits', which dervive from unintentional omittions and left behind pieces.

[Jediphile]

Emperor Devon, Prime, and Redhawke have said all that I believe is true. There are countless of reasons why the 'cut content' would be removed. If there are any issues, I blame it on bad editing. I can see small tiny pieces that were accidently omited, but the majority of the 'cut content' was omited for other reasons. I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted. One could make the argument that they were removed because they were not necessary. There are too many reasons.

 

That sounds like bad logic to me. You say there are many reasons, but still conclude that M4-78 and the HK-factory were both removed for the same reason. To me that seems doubtful. M4-78 was probably removed because the deadline was loomed on the horizon, and it didn't add anything significant to the plot. The same does not seem to be the case for the HK factory, which is the climax to the HK-50 units that have been hunting the Exile for about half the game and plotwise sets the stage for the G0-T0 vs. Remote vs. HK-47 showdown on Malachor V. If that scene is not significant, then why does the New Essential Guide to Droids go into details to put G0-T0's demise back in canon? No, it seems obvious to me that the HK factory was cut only due to time constraints, and that the plot was hurt as a consequence, because the HK-47 vs. G0-T0 confrontation then because implausible, because an essential part of the plot was now missing.

 

What drove people to the 'cut content' conspiracy is because modders found the files. If there were no such thing as modders, the average gammer would not know of their existance.

 

You don't need to be a modder to play the soundfiles or read through the dialog.tlk file. That's what people did. It did not come from modders restoring bits to the game that would otherwise have been impossible to find. Heck, even I discovered stuff nobody had mentioned before (to my knowledge) by simply listening to the soundfiles. And concluding that stuff was omitted due to a timeline does constitute a "conspiracy".

 

Remember, Obsidian wasn't going to say anything.

 

That depends. Does leaving all that cut stuff in the files for the fans to find count as not saying anything? I actually do think of that as Obsidian's way to quietly protest the treatment they received and make the fans aware of what was going on. Besides, it's not as if developers from Obsidian, when criticized for the cut nature of the game, did not respond with comments along the lines of "a situation beyond our control", which I think is even a direct quote, though I don't have the exact source now.

 

Until a curiosity driven person looked into the files, they didn't have a reason to say anything. People are just upset because they want more game play, and they are mad at how TSL was edited badly.

 

No, they want a coherent and consistent plot. You have that in TSL until about 80% through, where the plot takes huge turn to the left and leaves the player going "WTF?!?"

 

If you were right that players just want more game play, then we would have heard the same for KotOR1, which some people claim had even more content cut from it. But it didn't happen, and that tells us something. I'd like to see M4-78 and the genoharadan plot on Nar Shaddaa, but I'm okay with it being cut because it doesn't add anything significant or essential to the plot. I cannot say the same for the HK factory or the resolution of the Exile's companions, who just go - poof! - on Malachor V.

 

1. (LS) Where is the Exile going?

2. (DS) Did the Exile survive Malacore?

3. What happened to Revan?

 

4. What happened to the Exile's companions, who suddenly vanished into thin air?

5. Who won the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown?

 

To be honest, I have to also agree with another statement. I think the gammer should have been forced to hear about your companions' futures. If we were forced to hear about our friends, I think people will understand that TSL was a completed game.

 

No, because that would just even more beg the question on what has happened to them.

 

It is very sad that people believe TSL was an incomplete game. There is a difference between 'incomplete' and 'accidental edits'.

 

And it's also sad that people refuse to see that essential parts of the plot was cut due to the way the game was edited, leaving a story with gaping plotholes and some very confused players.

[The Source]

^^^^

I think you need to read and comprehend everyone's posts carefully.

 

"You say there are many reasons, but still conclude that M4-78 and the HK-factory were both removed for the same reason."

Interesting how you drew a false conculsion. I was clearly speculating, and anyone could have seen what I was driving towards. If you read the paragraph again, maybe you will consider all the sentences as a whole concept.

 

"4. What happened to the Exile's companions, who suddenly vanished into thin air?

5. Who won the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown?"

Keep on reading all of my posts, and you will find your answer. I am not going to repeat myself. Hint: Look for the 'accidental edits', and my statements about them.

 

"No, because that would just even more beg the question on what has happened to them."

Are we playing the same game? TSL right? Kreia was very clear about the fate of your companions. Read and listen to her dialouge again. If we are forced to hear her out, people would realize on how very complete the game was.

 

All that TSL was suffering from is by bad editting. Obsidian accidentlly didn't tie things up right. They left things that should have been deleted in, and they accidentlly removed things that they shouldn't have.

 

I am going to make a guess. 5% of the stuff we believe was 'cut content' were actially 'accidental edits'. The other 95% of the content, HK Fatory and M4-78, were not important for the story to be completed.

[Jediphile]

^^^^

I think you need to read and comprehend everyone's posts carefully.

 

That's odd given that I very specifically quoted you and then responded.

 

"You say there are many reasons, but still conclude that M4-78 and the HK-factory were both removed for the same reason."

Interesting how you drew a false conculsion. I was clearly speculating, and anyone could have seen what I was driving towards. If you read the paragraph again, maybe you will consider all the sentences as a whole concept.

 

Well, let's see - what you actually said was this:

Emperor Devon, Prime, and Redhawke have said all that I believe is true. There are countless of reasons why the 'cut content' would be removed. If there are any issues, I blame it on bad editing. I can see small tiny pieces that were accidently omited, but the majority of the 'cut content' was omited for other reasons. I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted. One could make the argument that they were removed because they were not necessary. There are too many reasons.

 

Well, seems pretty clear that you throw M4-78 and the HK factory into the same category here, namely that they were removed because they were not necessary (which I don't agree with)...

 

"4. What happened to the Exile's companions, who suddenly vanished into thin air?

5. Who won the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown?"

Keep on reading all of my posts, and you will find your answer. I am not going to repeat myself. Hint: Look for the 'accidental edits', and my statements about them.

 

Yet you still insist that the removal of the Exile's companions from the end of TSL does not present a problem. I disagree with that, even in spite of Kreia's predictions.

 

"No, because that would just even more beg the question on what has happened to them."

Are we playing the same game? TSL right? Kreia was very clear about the fate of your companions. Read and listen to her dialouge again. If we are forced to hear her out, people would realize on how very complete the game was.

 

No, because those predictions only serve to leave me as a player with a big, yet rather simple question: "Ok, so my companions are not dead, but then where are they?" There is no answer to that question, which is fairly bad storytelling. Or put differently, how would you feel if the last we ever see of Luke in RotJ is him pulling Vader toward a ship, the death star then explodes, then Han tells Leia that he's sure Luke wasn't there when it blew, and Leia just answers that he wasn't, and then that's it - no Luke flying out of the Death Star, no burning of Vader's armor, no Luke returning to the victory celebration, just Luke trying to get out, Death Star exploding, then Leia saying he didn't die...

 

All that TSL was suffering from is by bad editting. Obsidian accidentlly didn't tie things up right. They left things that should have been deleted in, and they accidentlly removed things that they shouldn't have.

 

But that's just it - they didn't remove it. It's all still there. We know this, because we can read it in the dialog.tlk file and hear it in the soundfiles. So why is that? Why can't we play it?

 

I am going to make a guess. 5% of the stuff we believe was 'cut content' were actially 'accidental edits'. The other 95% of the content, HK Fatory and M4-78, were not important for the story to be completed.

 

Well, you have a right to your opinion, but for every time you or someone else is going to say the HK factory is not essential to the game, I will insist on claiming that it is, and that its absense leaves the plot cut and incomplete because G0-T0 cannot be stopped in the LS ending unless HK-47 and the HK-51s are there to stop him, and they won't be there, if the HK factory is cut. It's missing plot, and HK-47 killing G0-T0 was cut for that reason, even though this chain of events was later confirmed in canon in the New Essential Guide to Droids. Why does the Guide specifically mention this for G0-T0's entry, if it's not important to the plot? It would seem far more significant to the game itself than to some Guide.

[The Source]

Jediphile:

Lol... You like arguing alot. Lol...

 

You don't get out much do you. Lol...

 

In order for me to continue with this debate, I will have to read the New Essential Guide to Droids book that you are talking about. I just read up on the discription, and it looks like a supplement book. Truthfuly, I think the whole thing is full of shnite.

[Emperor Devon]

I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted.

 

Mac is right. Jediphile, some technical knowledge of the game would help in your arguments. Have you examined the dialogue files in some of the areas where things were cut from TSL? The devs labeled some things in there "A-priority" "B-priority" and "C-priority", for scripting sequences which an experienced scripter could make in less than half an hour. Surely the deadline was not that specific?

 

This question is just idle curiosity, but is there a reason you leap at opportunities to debate but never go the Senate Chambers?

[Jediphile]

Jediphile:

Lol... You like arguing alot. Lol...

 

You don't get out much do you. Lol...

 

Now, now... None of that, if you please. I am scarcely the subject of the discussion here, so any reference to my status in or out - as the case may be - would, at best, seem inappropriate. And at worst, insulting or condescending.

 

In order for me to continue with this debate, I will have to read the New Essential Guide to Droids book that you are talking about. I just read up on the discription, and it looks like a supplement book. Truthfuly, I think the whole thing is full of shnite.

 

Be that as it may, it is still a reference book officially approved by the parent company, leaving little doubt as to its authenticy on the subject of canonic events.

 

And since it would have been a rather uncomplicated matter to simple ignore the matter of G0-T0's death on Malachor V, it would seem more than reasonable to assume that this is an acknowledgement of the missing content. For a game that - as you claim - is complete, is it not rather strange that we get the resolution to the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown in this obscure book rather than in the game itself?

 

Mac is right. Jediphile, some technical knowledge of the game would help in your arguments. Have you examined the dialogue files in some of the areas where things were cut from TSL? The devs labeled some things in there "A-priority" "B-priority" and "C-priority", for scripting sequences which an experienced scripter could make in less than half an hour. Surely the deadline was not that specific?

 

And how does this address the greater topic of the flawed plot that I refer to? Certainly I have dug into the dialog.tlk. Seeing as how I have referred to it on numerious occasions already that would seem to be a given. And although there may be priorities among things in the plot, I dare say that some sidepoints that are of no consequence to the plot still made it into the game. Does the Twi'lek enslaved on Citadel station play an important part of the plot? Do Suulru's vaporators on Dantooine? Doubtful, and yet they're still in the game, whereas the HK factory is not. Or are you suggesting that these quests are more significant to the plot than the HK factory? I would hazard a guess and say that is not so. The simple truth is likely that putting these minor quests in the game was both easy and convenient to do while those parts of the game were being written, whereas the HK factory was an entire module onto itself and therefore a far greater undertaking to implement, and of less priority than the actual planets, seeing as how finding the jedi masters (on each planet) is the greater quest of the game itself. This does not mean that the HK factory is not of signficance to how the greater plot unfolds, nor do I hear you make that argument.

 

This question is just idle curiosity, but is there a reason you leap at opportunities to debate but never go the Senate Chambers?

 

I fail to see what you're trying to insinuate. The matter is simply being discussed here and now.

[Emperor Devon]

And how does this address the greater topic of the flawed plot that I refer to?

 

What are you speaking of? The KotOR series doesn't have any "flawed" plots, and I wasn't addressing anything outside of it.

 

Anyhow, I posted that because you seemed to be implying TSL's cut content was due to time constraints.

 

Does the Twi'lek enslaved on Citadel station play an important part of the plot?

 

Not at all. TSL is an RPG. In RPGs you do quests that have little or no relevance to the plot.

 

I fail to see what you're trying to insinuate. The matter is simply being discussed here and now.

 

Red my post again. I was only wondering out of idle curiosity why you never post in the Senate Chambers when you seem to enjoy debating. That had no relevance to what we are discussing.

 

Also, you're not supposed to doube post. Using the edit button would be best.