God answers prayers

[Nancy Allen``]

I'll tell you something toms, I'll tell you, Adam had approached religious experts on a number of topics and for a lot of questions can you guess what their answer is? 'I dunno.' And really when people run up against a brick wall like that it can be hard. I know it's hard not just for me but for those who are devoted Christians.

 

And you don't have to worry about Adam either, like I said it's not blind faith and he will question what he doesn't think is right.

[Good Sir Knight]

It's been proven that many forms of prayer/meditation positively impact one's health.

[TK-8252]

It's been proven that many forms of prayer/meditation positively impact one's health.

 

Yes, it does work for some people. It allows them to find the strength within themselves. It works the same way that a placebo does.

 

However, no matter how much someone prays, they will never grow a new leg.

[Good Sir Knight]

Really it works exactly like placebo?

 

We both know that praying/meditation helps. How have you come to the conclusion that it works like placebo?

[TK-8252]

Really it works exactly like placebo?

 

We both know that praying/meditation helps. How have you come to the conclusion that it works like placebo?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing#Criticism

 

It's the same effect that it has on the mind.

[Good Sir Knight]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing#Criticism

 

It's the same effect that it has on the mind.

 

 

So is all your research based primarily in the criticism section under wikipedia's faith healing article?

 

Most people know that the faith healers you see on TBN are shams, just like the rest of the programming and the station itself. In fact most of the criticism of faith healing in this article centers around TBN...which is a discredit to the cynics because it focuses on supposed healers rather than the power of prayer...which has shown much more useful.

 

I for one don't have a solid opinion on this as I haven't done much research in this area.

 

So as for a concrete opinion, I can't give one. Though I'm willing to bet it's a little more complicated than the placebo effect.

 

-

 

My religious beliefs tell me that we're mere mortals at the will of the lord, we can ask but only he can deliver.... for reasons unrelated to our suffering or miopic concerns.

 

Plenty have suffered and died begging for the lords grace....even atheists.

[TK-8252]

So is all your research based primarily in the criticism section under wikipedia's faith healing article?

 

Of course.

 

But perhaps here's a better article:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect

 

"[the placebo effect] is the phenomenon that a patient's symptoms can be alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment, since the individual expects or believes that it will work."

 

Taking a placebo pill for relief from chronic pain - or praying to god for the relief - would have the same end result. You take the pill expecting it to heal you... and it does, because you expected it to. You pray to god expecting him to heal you... and the pain goes away, because you expected him to heal you.

[SkinWalker]

It's been proven that many forms of prayer/meditation positively impact one's health.

 

Do you care to cite that "proof" for inquiry and discussion, or is this just repeated rhetoric?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Do you care to cite that "proof" for inquiry and discussion, or is this just repeated rhetoric?

Usually someone is calmer and more relaxed when praying/meditating, so I would think that the lessening of stress for even just a short amount time would have a positive impact on one's health.

[SkinWalker]

I didn't ask for an hypothesis. I asked for the alleged "proof." I agree that the hypothesis you present is intuitive. But GSK said there was "proof."

[Nancy Allen``]

Noah's Ark was found. If that is proven as fact then it stands to reason that everything else is as well.

[TK-8252]

Noah's Ark was found. If that is proven as fact

 

Which it hasn't been.

[Nancy Allen``]

Okay, after a quick check on Google there have been numerous claims, but no actual irrefutible discovery.

 

Say, whenever religion is portrayed in fiction it is almost universally Christinanity, not Judism or Islam or some other religion. Why not. What of Christmas and Easter, are these to be rejected or do you still keep them just so you can get presents?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Noah's Ark was found. If that is proven as fact then it stands to reason that everything else is as well.

No it doesn't. Just because some old guy could build a boat and put some animals on it doesn't mean 7 trumpets will sound and bring about the end of humanity or that there's a bad man who lives near a lake of fire in a void of darkness who wants my soul.

 

 

Say, whenever religion is portrayed in fiction it is almost universally Christinanity, not Judism or Islam or some other religion

Same ****, different books.

[SkinWalker]

Noah's ark was most assuredly not found.

http://hotcupofjoe.blogspot.com/2006/06/pseudoarchaeology-raiders-of-lost-ark.html

 

Moreover, the myth of the Noachian flood was stolen by its Jewish authors from several earlier cultures, primarily the Sumerians.

 

I offer this comparison of the two stories, Noah vs. Gilgamesh:

 

1. At the end of forty days

2. Noah opened the window he had made in the ark and released a raven,

3. Which flew back and forth as it waited for the waters to dry up on the earth

4. Then he released a dove to see whether the waters were receding from the earth

5. But the dove, finding nowhere to perch, returned to the ark, for there was water over the whole surface of the earth. Putting his hand out, he took hold of it and brought it back into the ark with him.

6. After waiting seven more days, he again released the dove from the ark.

7. In the evening the dove came back to him and there in his beak was a freshly-picked olive leaf! So Noah realized that the waters were receding from the earth.

8. After waiting seven more days, he released the dove and now it returned no more.

 

--Genesis 8:6-12

 

1. When the seventh day arrived,

2. I sent forth and set free a dove.

3. The dove went forth but came back since no resting place was visible, she turned around.

4. Then I set forth a swallow

5. The swallow went forth but came back, since no resting place for it was visible, she turned around.

6. .

7. .

8. I then set free a raven. The raven went forth and, seeing that the waters had diminished, he eats, circles, caws, and turns not around.

 

--Gligamesh XI, 145-54

 

Lines 6 & 7 were left purposely blank to demonstrate the literary evolution of the story itself. As is common with ancient myths that find themselves transmitted from one culture to another as a meme, the adopting culture typically adds more than it subtracts.

 

Noah was a myth, created by a bronze age priests, borrowed from the literary traditions of an older, greater society.

[SkinWalker]

whenever religion is portrayed in fiction it is almost universally Christianity, not Judaism or Islam or some other religion.

 

Not by me. I'm unbiased in my rejection of superstition. Furthermore, Christianity and Islam are evolutionary descendants of Judaism. Both accept Abraham. Indeed, the first 5 books of the Christian bible are the Septuagint, a.k.a. the Torah (the Jewish bible).

 

But the Hindu religion is just as silly, with 1 god pretending to be 18. The Navajo religion with its sand paintings that heal the sick and witches (called yenaldlooshi, a.k.a. skinwalkers) that change into coyotes and wolves are fantastical.

 

What of Christmas and Easter, are these to be rejected or do you still keep them just so you can get presents?

 

Santa day and Bunny Day! I love those holidays. Both of these have origins that are anything but Christian, by the way. But, regardless of their pagan origins of winter and spring celebrations, they have evolved into rich cultural traditions that no longer belong exclusively to Christianity, but to the societies they are celebrated in.

[toms]

Any studies that have proven any benefit for prayer (to a god) have also been duplicated with studies of meditation. They have also been duplicated in a number of different religions.

 

Since meditation is internal, and doesn't involve any plea to a higher being.. if it is equally effective as prayer to a higher being that seriously implies that any benefits are internal, and not a result of "god answering your prayers".

 

Furthermore, there are just as many accounts of "miracles" for every other religion. From stories of people healed by Indian medicine men, to stories of Muslims healed on their religious pilgrimages. So if we accept these anecdotal stories as evidence that "god answers prayers" then you must also accept that OTHER gods answer prayers.. and therefore htere is more than one god.

[TK-8252]

Furthermore, there are just as many accounts of "miracles" for every other religion. From stories of people healed by Indian medicine men, to stories of Muslims healed on their religious pilgrimages. So if we accept these anecdotal stories as evidence that "god answers prayers" then you must also accept that OTHER gods answer prayers.. and therefore htere is more than one god.

 

One of the Ten Commandments says that thou shall have no other gods before me... which seems to imply that the old Jews actually DID believe in more than one god. Just that the Abrahamic god was superior to them all.

 

Then there's the story of how Pharaoh's magicians were able to perform the same magic that Moses could with the help of his god... so it seems that they indeed believed in more than one god.

[toms]

Pharaoh wasn't jewish though. (just to be picky )

 

To be honest, I don't really care if prayer works or not.. if it works because its a placebo or because one of the gods answers.. prayer is one of the few religious issues that DOESN'T generally impact negatively on the rest of us.

 

If people want to believe in prayer and it makes them feel better then let them. As long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else it is fine with me.

 

there is however no evidence whatsoever it works.. so its entirely down to your beliefs.

[Nancy Allen``]

Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?

[TK-8252]

Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?

 

It doesn't matter. It really doesn't. If you want to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster then more power to you.

 

It's when all three branches of government get taken over by fundamentalist Christianity is when it bothers freethinkers...

[toms]

Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?

 

Well, it was you that started the thread.. and i'm happy to debate about it. However its not something i have a problem with.

 

there ARE a number of religous issues i do have a problem with, but you need to look in other threads for those.

 

Putting aside all the evidence and assuming that people DO actually get responses, and it isn't just wishful thinking.. how do we know who it is that is responding? It could be "God", it could be Allah, or Visshnu, or the Thunder God. It could be a voice in your head. It could be some form of psychic connection. It could be traces from an alternate realm. It could be people from the future. It could be an all powerful space alien. It could be something we haven't even thought of yet. There really is no way to know.

 

Even if a giant flaming head appears in the sky tomorrow an proclaims itself to be god, there is still the chance it could be another being of much greater power than our own. We would have no way of knowing and would simply have to take it's word for it. Or not.

[Nancy Allen``]

By that I mean for some it seems like God is some great evil and regardless of what is presented they reject it, angrily. It's like trying to convince someone who believes Bush is Hitler of all the good he's done.

[Windu Chi]

By that I mean for some it seems like God is some great evil and regardless of what is presented they reject it, angrily. It's like trying to convince someone who believes Bush is Hitler of all the good he's done.

 

What good have that fool Bush have done? What the hell are you talking about?

 

I guest you mean the good of putting religion back in control again like the power they had in the past.

[Nancy Allen``]

Did I say Bush had done any good? No, for all you know I might think something like 'ZOMG BUSH IS HITLER KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE ****.'