God answers prayers

[SkinWalker]

What good have that fool Bush have done? What the hell are you talking about?

 

I think Nancy was making an analogy. Please try to read the entire thread, let it soak in a bit, then compose yourself if you wish to post here. Your second sentence above is best described as impertinent when compared and contrasted with the one below.

 

I guest you mean the good or puting religion in control again like the power they had in the past.

 

I truly would like to respond to that, but, try as I might, I could not discern the context nor the syntax. My apologies.

[SkinWalker]

Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?

By that I mean for some it seems like God is some great evil and regardless of what is presented they reject it, angrily. It's like trying to convince someone who believes Bush is Hitler of all the good he's done.

 

For some, undoubtedly. However, for many (myself included) there is no belief that "god is some great evil" or any anger directed at any god. This would presume that a god exists to characterize with the anthropomorphic attribute of evil or to direct anger at.

 

Instead, many like myself simply become upset at the attempts to codify religious dogma and belief on others. We also find it stimulating and satisfying to debate the philosophical positions of various religious adherents. So when someone begins a thread with an unreasoned and illogical claim that has no evidential basis, it then becomes both a duty and a pleasure to refute it. It doesn't matter if people believe in gods. It matters, however, if they use their god to impose upon others or make public claims of their god's prowess that they cannot demonstrate.

 

There's no anger involved in my willingness to debunk religious claims. It's my pleasure.

[Windu Chi]

I think Nancy was making an analogy. Please try to read the entire thread, let it soak in a bit, then compose yourself if you wish to post here. Your second sentence above is best described as impertinent when compared and contrasted with the one below.

 

 

 

I truly would like to respond to that, but, try as I might, I could not discern the context nor the syntax. My apologies.

You like to be sarcastic huh? What you think you don't make any grammar or spelling mistakes?

[SkinWalker]

Very few. And I've the humility to beg forgiveness from even you when I do.

 

Still, I've no idea what message you were attempting to convey was in the passage I so "ruthlessly" critiqued. Perhaps that is the line that should be drawn in the metaphorical sand when it comes to criticizing the grammatical errors of others: when there is no ability to understand. If English isn't your first or even second language, please accept my apologies in advance. Your diction is commendable for someone who has adopted English as a tertiary language skill.

 

Also, if you weren't as critical of others, you might find that others might not be so quick to criticize you.

 

Heat, kitchens, and all.

[Nancy Allen``]

It doesn't matter if people believe in gods. It matters, however, if they use their god to impose upon others or make public claims of their god's prowess that they cannot demonstrate.

 

The same with anything else in the world. Without just cause no one should for any reason force their views or beliefs on others. What would be just cause? Mace Windu, or Yoda, trying to stop Palpatine would count. A real world example would be the efforts in Afghanistan, or the first Iraq war, the Gulf war where Saddam Hussein was pushed out of Kuwait.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

No, because there were logical reasons to drive Saddam out of Kuwait. There are logical reasons to re-estabilish the sovereign state of Kurdistan. There are logical reasons to invade Afghanistan.

 

However, "it's God's will" is not a good reason. God cannot be demonstrated, and hence I might as well use the will of the Troll King living in the mountains behind my house as justification for my actions. Or the Wyrm Queen in the fjord. Or Oðinn, King of Gods.

[SkinWalker]

See, now I took Nancy's last post as an agreement between she and I. Am I wrong, Nancy, that you agree religion shouldn't be forced upon others and that religious belief has no place in the decision making process of public policy? Shouldn't public activities remain secular?

[Nancy Allen``]

That's exactly what I'm saying. To justify using the Christian God to justify something like killing homosexuals is just as wrong as people killing themselves and others in the name of Allah. Logic is not the issue, is it logical to follow something that is not concrete in evidence, or ignore something that millions of people believe is right? For that matter, where is the logic in following one religion that seems supernatural and not another that is equally, or more so, farfetched? Logic is irrevelent, it's the use of this belief that is the current issue. To use it to force your will upon others, regardless of your belief, is wrong to anyone with the basic concept of good and evil no matter what belief they have.

[Windu Chi]

The same with anything else in the world. Without just cause no one should for any reason force their views or beliefs on others. What would be just cause? Mace Windu, or Yoda, trying to stop Palpatine would count. A real world example would be the efforts in Afghanistan, or the first Iraq war, the Gulf war where Saddam Hussein was pushed out of Kuwait.

 

You know what would be a good thing to have if it is real of course, is the Force as a occupier of all the world's current religions.

 

The Force have no preference; good or evil is a point of view not a choice of one or the other.

 

With the Force as the dominant religion there won't be no suicide bombers killing themselves for GOD Allah or whoever.

 

There is no god in the Force. The Force is neutral, thats what makes the

 

Force a good choice for a replacement to the current world's religions.

 

Also having the Force as a religion will give great benifits like duh Force powers

 

You won't get that from any of the world's dull trouble making religions.

 

What you just get from most of the current world's religion, is worship or suffer for eternity in those religions respective hells.

 

I bet you it will be alot of followers of the Force if it is real.

[Nancy Allen``]

Yeah, I'm sure it would, especially with it's Star Wars roots and Jedi like Aayla. Those aside I think it's a great idea, in that as far as the Force is concerned what is considered evil is just as valid as good, depending on the context.

[Writer]

Sorry to pull the discussion back so far, but I wanted to be able to answer the questions here...

 

 

 

I assume that by Surveys you mean the scientific studies mentioned earlier?

In which case i don't understand your logic. The results of a study of a few thousand people are definately more accurate than the annecdotal evidence of one or two stories.

 

I agree with you here, actually. I'm just saying that there are more than 6 billion humans on the planet. Considering that, a few thousand people may be more accurate than one or two, but you still can't expect a study of that size to be as accurate as most people like to pretend it is.

 

What you are basically saying is that god's answers change nothing. Or they change such a minute number of things that asking him to change anything is pointless. That kind of makes sense... because if there is a god (and no-one is saying we can prove that there isn't only that there is no evidence either way) then you'd have to figue he'd planned everything out that way for a reason.. so your uninformed pleas wouldn't change much.

 

Hmm... I hadn't thought of it that way, actually. It just makes sens to me that, if God really is the supernatural being we've all been told he is (as in, all-powerful, all-knowing, exists outside of time, ect.), then he must know what's best for us more than we do. Think of it like a parent-child relationship. The kid wants to have a bunch of candy. Why? It tastes good. The kid can't yet understand that, if he's going to have a bunch of candy, it will probably make him sick. So the parent has to understand it and tell the kid, 'no'.

 

Though, if, as you say, god is unlikely to ever change his plan simply because someone asks him... and the scientists back you up on that... then it does rather make nancy's initial post invalid... and make the whole process of prayer rather pointless too.

 

Well, that's not quite what I meant. I could give you a few examples of how prayer has changed lives, but you're just going to tell me that it's only a couple of people and therefore inaccurate on average, so I'll just allow us to skip over that.

 

If you believe the Bible (particularly the Old Testament), then there are several examples of God listening to the words of His people. I said 'if' because it seems like the majority of us here don't. At any rate, you have Abraham, who asked God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah because that's where Lot was living; God spared the cities long enough for Lot to get out.

 

Isaac prayed that God would lead a woman to the well he sat at who'd be willing to give him a drink of the water; there came Rebekah (alright, this is a cheezy example...). There were a couple of times where God threatened to destroy the Israelites and Moses pleaded with him to change his mind.

 

If I had a Bible handy, I could list more. But my understanding is that prayer isn’t meant to capture God’s attention. After all, doesn’t he know everything already? My understanding of prayer is more that we need to say it than that He needs to hear it. It can be comforting to get your problems out on the table… even if God decides to answer ‘no’.

[ET Warrior]

. It can be comforting to get your problems out on the table… even if God decides to answer ‘no’.

In this case, wouldn't it be better to discuss your problems with another person? One who will actually talk to you and likely make an active attempt to make you feel better? As opposed to some silent possibly-existant deity whose answer MIGHT come in the form of some ambiguous 'sign' of you getting hit by a car?

 

The very idea of most any deity that people pray to is that they already have a master plan for everything, and it doesn't really matter what you ask for, or what you want, what is already planned out is planned out and is going to happen.

 

Doesn't it seem awfully pretentious to think that an all-knowing, all-powerful being is going to change it's timeless plan for everything just because it's currently inconveniencing you?

[Dagobahn Eagle]

It can be comforting to get your problems out on the table…

Definetly. Pray, rant, write, draw, paint, express your issues in any way you want. It's a good coping skill.

 

Of course, it's an even better coping skill to talk to someone who really cares and who listens and says the right things. They can be awfully hard to come by, sadly.

 

 

The very idea of most any deity that people pray to is that they already have a master plan for everything, and it doesn't really matter what you ask for, or what you want, what is already planned out is planned out and is going to happen.

 

Doesn't it seem awfully pretentious to think that an all-knowing, all-powerful being is going to change it's timeless plan for everything just because it's currently inconveniencing you?

I never thought of it that way. Well put.

[Windu Chi]

In this case, wouldn't it be better to discuss your problems with another person? One who will actually talk to you and likely make an active attempt to make you feel better? As opposed to some silent possibly-existant deity whose answer MIGHT come in the form of some ambiguous 'sign' of you getting hit by a car?

 

The very idea of most any deity that people pray to is that they already have a master plan for everything, and it doesn't really matter what you ask for, or what you want, what is already planned out is planned out and is going to happen.

 

Doesn't it seem awfully pretentious to think that an all-knowing, all-powerful being is going to change it's timeless plan for everything just because it's currently inconveniencing you?

 

Damn right! You hit it right on the nail ET Warrior.

 

God only answers prayers only for those ones who kisses it ass the most.

 

God surely don't give a f**k for everyone on Earth or in this universe.

 

As thoses lying Christians whould have you believe in.

 

He surely also did'nt give f**k for those 11 million souls who died in the death camps in humiliating, disgusting and unacceptable circumstances.

 

I just wanted to remind you all and those delusional Christians about that visible fact again.

 

To show you all the damning evidence of God's failures of answersing people prayers; 11 million and still counting.

[Nancy Allen``]

It sounds like you have a real problem with the concept of God and Christians, almost as if you have something personal against them.

[Windu Chi]

It sounds like you have a real problem with the concept of God and Christians, almost as if you have something personal against them.

 

I just want all Christians to admit that God fail those victims in the death camps and rest who was murdered in Europe in World War II.

 

Also I want all those Christians EVERY where to admit God is'nt: perfect,caring, forgiving and is just a f**K up same as the rest of us.

 

Yes I do hate God serverely and infinitely, but can't hate Christians because my family are Christians.

 

But I won't ever care about that f**ker ever again.

[SkinWalker]

The irony here is that Windu6 hasn't said he doesn't believe in God or that there is a Christian God. On the contrary, he appears to accept that a god exists but that this god is flawed. One who was predisposed to psychoanalyze this might hypothesize that Windu6 had a significant negative event or loss in his life to which he blames the Christian God he was raised to believe in.

 

I'm not predisposed to psychoanalyze, so I'll refrain from making that hypothesis.

[Nancy Allen``]

I think yould would have an easier time wooing the likes of Padme and Aayla. If people who follow religion choose to build a few hopes around some unseen, unearthly entity and it brings out the good in them surely that cannot be a bad thing.

 

But I won't ever care about that f**ker ever again.

 

Ever again? I'm no psychologist but is there something with you and God you want to share?

[Totenkopf]

The irony here is that Windu6 hasn't said he doesn't believe in God or that there is a Christian God. On the contrary, he appears to accept that a god exists but that this god is flawed. One who was predisposed to psychoanalyze this might hypothesize that Windu6 had a significant negative event or loss in his life to which he blames the Christian God he was raised to believe in.

 

I'm not predisposed to psychoanalyze, so I'll refrain from making that hypothesis.

 

 

Kind of like saying..."it goes w/o saying, but I'll say it anyway"

 

But seriously, exactly what would constitute proof of God's (or any other supernatural being for that matter) existence that you (atheists and non-believers in general) wouldn't reject out of hand as some kind of mass hypnosis or parlor trick? It seems to me that it would be very difficult to prove the genuine existence of God, especially as we become more and more technically sophisticated. Many of you "christian bashers" seem to be as closed minded as the people you deride when it comes to this topic.

[SkinWalker]

But seriously, exactly what would constitute proof of God's (or any other supernatural being for that matter) existence that you (atheists and non-believers in general) wouldn't reject out of hand as some kind of mass hypnosis or parlor trick? It seems to me that it would be very difficult to prove the genuine existence of God, especially as we become more and more technically sophisticated. Many of you "christian bashers" seem to be as closed minded as the people you deride when it comes to this topic.

 

I'm an atheist, but an agnostic one. I'm willing to revise my position with evidence presented and in the case of a god it would only take a demonstration of omnipotence/omnipresence. Nothing too difficult for a god. As an agnostic-atheist, I recognize that, while I see no reason to accept the gods of man just because some Bronze and Iron age believers wrote down their myths, I also recognize there is no way for me to state that no god can exist since I'm unable to test this hypothesis. My mind is very open -far more so than the deluded who go on with their lives worshiping bronze age mythology.

[Totenkopf]

Skin, you're a walking oxymoron. You do realize that atheists deny the existance of God while agnostics merely question it. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to just admit that you're an agnostic. While I accept that there most likely is a god, as the alternative is depressingly nihilistic, I also recognize that it would be damned difficult to prove it in the emprical sense. My brother majored in philosophy and theology but even the argument that denying God exists is proof of his existance struck me as weak. It only proved that the concept of God existed and little else. Still, I'm waiting for you to explain exactly what "God" must do to prove he's more than just bronze age mythology.

[Mace MacLeod]

There actually have been scientific studies done on the therapeutic benefits of prayers in hospital settings which show improved recovery rates and more positive overall emotional states for surgical patients who prayed versus ones who didn't, but unfortunately I can't link to them as they're in scientific journals which require membership in university libraries. I've run into this problem before in backing up claims I've made (and would like to make) in various online debates.

 

Anyway, here's the gist of the argument for prayer: It's not that the deity prayed to necessarily reaches down and intercedes directly, it's that the individual doing the praying or spiritual meditation or scrying or what-have-you benefits from calming themselves and focussing their minds. The interactions between mind and body are still very poorly understood, and it's thought that the act of prayer performed by someone who truly believes provides an emotional state which is more conducive to the healing process.

[SkinWalker]

Skin, you're a walking oxymoron. You do realize that atheists deny the existance of God while agnostics merely question it.

 

Years after I came to the conclusion that I should refer to myself as "agnostic atheist," I discovered the philosophical writings of a theologian, Robert Flint, who said,

"If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist - an agnostic-atheist - an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..."

 

Still, I'm waiting for you to explain exactly what "God" must do to prove he's more than just bronze age mythology.

 

Surely, this would be an easy task for one that is alleged to be omnipotent/omnipresent: he could raise a relative from the dead; stop the planet from revolving for a day (he did in the OT); etc. Obviously an omnipotent being would know precisely what revelation it would take to convince me of its divinity. Wouldn't you agree?

[SkinWalker]

There actually have been scientific studies done on the therapeutic benefits of prayers in hospital settings which show improved recovery rates and more positive overall emotional states for surgical patients who prayed versus ones who didn't, but unfortunately I can't link to them as they're in scientific journals which require membership in university libraries. I've run into this problem before in backing up claims I've made (and would like to make) in various online debates.

 

You could provide as much of a citation as possible. Others are able to access the journals and see the source of the claims. Most public libraries have access to a variety of journals and databases for journals. These are studies I'd like to see if you have the authors, titles, and journals. I'm aware of several recent studies that demonstrate the little to zero effect of prayer and will happily provide a source later... gotta run.

[Totenkopf]

Seems to me Mr. Flint is engaging in linguistic gymnastics.