Saber Style Differences

[JRHockney*]

This system only seems complex atm because we are changing details of our already existing moves. When you look closely at our system, we dont really have that many new moves, and they happen so fast in combat, that it leaves me wanting more variety.

 

For most fights, the only new moves you use (that are used for about 90% of the fight) are the basic parrying, attack parrying, and attack fakes for the most part and the effects of these are all intertwined. Once you understand the few details about what is possible with these, you realise that we dont really have that many new moves at all that are even that different in their effect. The very fact that we only have a few different moves has also made creating unique characteristics for each saber style that are unique and useful a bit more difficult because we little to work with. I've actually started using alot more yellow dfas and roll stabs just to switch things up a bit.

 

The mishaps are probably the toughest thing to remember and spot the differences of for new players, but once you see the differences, their easy. Their are only really three types of them. I suppose one thing we could do to cut back on the confusion here is take the stumble mishaps out of the MP meter maxout mishap rotation. Since the stumble is a less dangerous mishap and its already a kicking mishap, It shouldnt be in with the disarm and knockdown mishaps anymore. Its just easier to say that you'll either get disarmed or knockeddown is you max out your mishap meter.

 

Anyways, I'm just trying to prove a point here. Its only seems difficult because we are experimenting with what we have atm, and most JKA players are use to doing things a certain way. As far as moves, in comparison to most modern day systems, we really dont have that many and we could use more.

[razorace]

Vruki makes a good point about the difficult involved with the terminology, but I'm not sure how we can correct this. Maybe have seperate quick start/advanced sections in the manual?

[Maxstate]

Vruki makes a good point about the difficult involved with the terminology, but I'm not sure how we can correct this. Maybe have seperate quick start/advanced sections in the manual?

Demos!

 

I'm off to get a few job application forms, when I get back I'm planning on making a demo with a couple of friends where we explain the saber system from ingame. We made one which was long and had big pauses between texts and it was about 550 kb big, I'm planning on making text binds so I don't need to type everything.

 

Anyone willing to help?

[Vruki Salet]

Maybe have seperate quick start/advanced sections in the manual?

 

That's useful only so far as the system can be learned with a quick start manual. There's the key, to wrap it up so a few instructions make it possible for a n00b to fight with it and have fun. Not win much maybe, but still have fun while they learn the tricks.

 

That means there has to be a consistent, learnable logic underpinning the system. It should be that once a minimum number of premises have been established then it is possible to have a fair idea what to expect without ever knowing the jargon.

 

Is that logic discernable without multiple careful readings of the source code?

[razorace]

The system isn't that complicated. It goes linearly thru checksaberdamage.

[Sushi_CW]

I think that the way the system is right now, a "quickstart" guide is very possible. New players can get by quite well by understanding:

1) How to parry and why it matters

2) How to combo and why it matters (as well as why not to combo too much: mishap bars).

3) That walking is good and running can cost you.

4) That when you run out of DP, you die.

 

A decent understanding of just those is enough to make most players competetive, if not dominant. Other concepts, like attack fakes, attack parries, and kicks can be layered on after that. They add to the system, but frankly aren't essential to fighting in it.

[Vruki Salet]

The system isn't that complicated. It goes linearly thru checksaberdamage.

 

I think you misunderstood my point. There ought to be a logic to it that can be followed without having to read the source. "Multiple careful readings" was just supposed to emphasize familiarity.

[razorace]

Oh, ok. I understand now. Fortunately, I think Sushi covered the basics in his last post.

[Vruki Salet]

I like what Sushi said there OK, the way he put it.

 

I want to clarify that it's not complexity of moves or controls I mind, it's that sabering in OJP-E involves understanding of technical details that has no meaning outside of OJP-E and so doesn't "make sense" automatically to someone who wasn't involved in defining those details.

 

Razor understood rightly that I was talking about terminology, and I mean to say further that the terminology has kind of taken on a life of it's own. Not just that it's bad enough that (and I'm going to make something up here) "parrying an attack fake during a slowbounce causes a stun mishap," which is the style of instructions you have to deal with to learn the system, it's that in OJP-E land this follows some kind of internal logic that isn't known to outsiders. You might say "Yes of course it does, duh. What else would parrying an attack fake during a slowbounce do?" but someone who wasn't there when these ideas where being defined as likely to say "If you say so boss. WTF." and not stick around too long.

 

Oh well. I guess I'm ranting. Sorry if I'm not being too clear I think I lost myself.

 

It's just that I came across the word "superbreak" one day and my head caved in.

[Maxstate]

I like what Sushi said there OK, the way he put it.

 

I want to clarify that it's not complexity of moves or controls I mind, it's that sabering in OJP-E involves understanding of technical details that has no meaning outside of OJP-E and so doesn't "make sense" automatically to someone who wasn't involved in defining those details.

 

Razor understood rightly that I was talking about terminology, and I mean to say further that the terminology has kind of taken on a life of it's own. Not just that it's bad enough that (and I'm going to make something up here) "parrying an attack fake during a slowbounce causes a stun mishap," which is the style of instructions you have to deal with to learn the system, it's that in OJP-E land this follows some kind of internal logic that isn't known to outsiders. You might say "Yes of course it does, duh. What else would parrying an attack fake during a slowbounce do?" but someone who wasn't there when these ideas where being defined as likely to say "If you say so boss. WTF." and not stick around too long.

 

Oh well. I guess I'm ranting. Sorry if I'm not being too clear I think I lost myself.

 

It's just that I came across the word "superbreak" one day and my head caved in.

 

That's why I use simple terms to get people started. They're down to earth, interchangable and just sound damn better:

 

-Mishap: Concentration. The higher your mishap bar goes the lower your concentration is. When you lose concentration you can make mistakes, we call these mistakes mishaps. Mishaps include knockdowns, disarms, and freezes. The type of mishap you get depends on where your concentration bar is when it happens.

 

You lower your concentration by attacking people and you gain it by blocking attacks.

 

-Parries : Blocking. YOu can block attacks in 4 ways:

 

* Attacks: Cancel out your opponents attacks with your own or just put your saber infront of the spot his saber is going to hit your body.

* Fakes: Fakes are done by tapping your attack button. You can use them to confuse your opponent and block attacks. You block attacks with fakes the same way you do with attacks I.E putting your saber infront of your enemy's.

*Walk-blocking: Walking in the right direction to block is the general idea of how you should block in OJP and is used by everyone. You do it like so:

 

*If someone attacks your right side, you walk to the right.

* If someone hits the right side of your head or upper body you walk to the right and back

*If someone aims at the right side of your legs or feet you walk to the right and forwards

 

For blocking your left side, just change "right" to "left".

 

The fourth way of blocking is called a riposte, you basically turn your enemy's attack into a something you can benefit from. In the current version, managing a riposte makes you go into a quick saberlock with you as the victor in order to give you an upperhand or just as a way to turn the tides.

Riposting is a powerful tool and people who can use it correctly are feared greatly, there have been accounts of people winning duels when starting at 10 DP simply because they can riposte important enemy assaults and turns them into things they can use.

 

You can riposte by walking into the right direction and tapping fake at the exact moment your enemy's saber hits you. The fake tapping can also be replaced by holding the button down and doing an attack, it makes no difference altough fakes are less visible and less obvious.

 

General Notes:

You need Force to attack with your saber and fill your Dodge points again. You also need Force points to use Force powers.

 

Dodge points are used for dodging and blocking saber attacks, don't let them run out.

 

You can return your saber from it's throw once it's on the floor and stops moving. (note to ace, I would love to see myself being able to return it before it halts completely but have it return a bit slower)

 

You can hold your jump button to use Force Fall and slow down your descent as not to get damaged.

 

There, good newbie tips

[JRHockney*]

Ok ok, I'll start changing the names of the moves to something more understandable like maybe some of the names maxstate mentioned or something similiar. But I'll still Keep the old names in parenthesis: (Technical name: "name of move") along side the new name in the title. That way people wont get overly confused when they look at the code for them. Changing all the names in the code would just be too much of a hassle.

[razorace]

Is concentration really an accurate description? You're not exactly losing your concentration and then getting disarmed/knocked down. I prefer to think of it as the player's current balance or stability level.

 

Secondly, I think there needs to be a bit more information about the different types of blocking. It's not obvious that players only lose DP and cause mishaps when parrying or attack parrying. Do we even really need to change the parrying term? That seems pretty laymanish to me.

 

As for the manual, there's no need to use the old terms since people how understand the code will know what's going on anyway.

[Maxstate]

To Hockney and Razor:

 

You don't need to change anything, anywhere, anytime. I'll say this though, I will use these words when I teach new players how to use this saber system.

I have already in the past. Dizzi, Bob, Ripley, Plasma, Revovles, Rusty are all people I've brought into the game and are all people I've taught my way.

Within a couple of minutes they could duel amongst themselves and actually understand what's happening.

 

Teaching Menion and other people the 'technical' way, they lost interest and quit after being destroyed a couple of times. I haven't seen Menion play it for a while now and I know the reason; he plays MB. It's easy to get swayed by the simpleness of their system. You don't need to know what a mishap is or at what levels of force someone gets fatigued. You just take your gun, point and shoot.

I find it sometimes being fun as well, I can understand their sentiments.

 

Dizzi hated OJP a while ago. He'd been used to getting his butt handed to him by the most random reasons he could think of and he wouldn't know why he died. He reminds me of me when I was trying to learn the system with Hockney too, I know that he had rather /quit and play some MBII.

After I explained it to him in my own words he's developed a liking towards OJP. He likes the system and finds it "movie-like" and "realistic" and "gud 4 videos". I totally agree. Altough not if this system is going to become a jumble of jargon and bull**** people have to learn before being able to enjoy the game.

 

Games shouldn't be an intellectual challenge, they should be fun. I think using other, simpler words is just one step towards making it a more simpler game. Mind you the saber system is fine the way it is, we can always add more features to it. Let's get ourselves a playerbase with the current one and with 0.1.0's features and then we'll see what still needs tinkering and fixing. I know this is a bold move of mine, and maybe a childish one at that, but know that I'm keeping my 009i and keeping them on both Euro servers if I really don't like the over-complicating changes in the next versions if any

 

Enough of this. Enough complication and customization to certain individuals.

 

Seriously.

[Doctor Shaft]

I read these threads every day. And I keep salivating for something beyond 0.0.9b. All these cool features.

[csidle]

Just wondering, is there any defense bonus gained using the Soresu style, or is it just the brand you're paying for?

[UDM]

Yeah, Soresu has defensive and counter-attack benefits. Best stance imho for defense

[razorace]

I think the current idea is to have the perks/disadvantages be purchased on a general basis thru the skills menus. Having the perks/disadvantages be style based just proved to be too complicated to balance. :|

[Maxstate]

Sure, ^

 

I also think that someone needs to be limited to 1 or 2 perks at a time.

Perks should cost 15-20 points depending on their usefulness and should have certain perequisites:

 

Improved parry:

Ability to defend your back and sides with ease.

-No extra back damage.

 

Improved reflexes:

Improved body reflexes.

-Heavy stuns and bounces take as long as normal ones.

 

Steady hand:

Steady grip on your hilt.

-can't be disarmed.

 

Strong counter:

You use a lot of physical force augmented with THE Force to batter opponents and their sabers.

-disarms happen if a power attack is riposted.

 

Aerial specialist:

You specialise in aerial strikes.

-All Dfa's do more damage.

 

Acrobatic finesse:

True prince of persia.

-Acrobatics cost only 1 FP to do.

 

Feint specialist:

Your feints are more confusing.

Mishap damage is increased slightly.

 

True strike:

Dodging is useless against your aim.

-If you manage to hit someone with no saber (disarmed) with a power attack, he is instantly killed, ignoring his dodge.

 

Flowing Force: (30 points, forcewhore powerup)

The force flows through you, not in you.

-Attacks from Force Powers do half damage.

-Your FP regenerates quicker in meditation.

 

Battle Meditation:

You are ultra-prescient while in meditation and can dodge lightsaber attacks while in deep meditative stasis.

 

Canny dodge:

Evade your killing blow if your mishap is below half.

-If you have no DP, but are below half mishap, you can dodge your opponent's killing blow by sheer skill.

 

These can be elaborated on and merged to please.

 

I also think someone should only be able to pick 2 to a maximum of 3 styles untill he dies.