The experience system & skills and abilities thread

[razorace]

Unfortunately, most maps don't have enough throwable objects to make it worth while.

[Doctor Shaft]

Two cents to add on the subject as well.

 

Jedi Knight had the Force Throw ability in game. I've found that no matter what, Force Throw has always been a wonky power at best.

 

The objects thing was always an obstacle. The other problem was how to counter it. In JK, you couldn't counter it, so in certain maps, Force Throw was king. Just constantly spam it, and people died because there were so many objects being tossed around.

 

JA could conceivably have a counter, but I could just picture people either always using Throw because of how useful it might be, or never using it because restrictions make it too clunky to be worthwhile.

 

A cool concept, but in practice it would always be a burden.

[UDM]

I really like the idea, but JKA has crap ragdoll physics, and on top of that, it isn't optimized to have objects movable in real time (I think)

 

Too bad JKA wasn't built on the Doom 3 engine

[ensiform]

I really like the idea, but JKA has crap ragdoll physics, and on top of that, it isn't optimized to have objects movable in real time (I think)

 

Too bad JKA wasn't built on the Doom 3 engine

 

Too bad D3: Jedi / Q4: Jedi didn't get off too far other than a couple of concepts :/

[razorace]

It's not a big deal. You don't need ragdoll to make throwable objects/items work.

[ensiform]

Yeah but, if they are part of the worldspawn they will never move.

[razorace]

Right, but objects aren't a part of the worldspawn unless they were just designed as part of the map geometry.

 

This means we're not really going to be able to have parts of the wall pull off and fly at people, but I'm guessing that would be the case in the Doom 3 engine as well.

 

Of course we could always just make new maps with the needed parts.

[ensiform]

Srsly, I've been running around in CoOp a lot lately in Enhanced and the freaking Skill system is pissing me off when it suddenly loses skill and eventually goes negative, u rly need to fix dat.

[UDM]

In Doom 3, if you spawned an object with mass eg. boxes, that's the way they'd react. The gravity gun makes a huge difference to interactivity with the environment in Resurrection of Evil

 

Which is why I think it's a bad idea to have this in JKA. It'll be like having very static meshes flying about the map, and will look fugly. At least without ragdoll code

[Maxstate]

Well this has already been done in a map called "fearis" but that's just parts of the map flying in a scripted path.

 

I'd rather see NPC's be able to collide with each other and depending on hit speed, knock each other over.

[ensiform]

In Doom 3, if you spawned an object with mass eg. boxes, that's the way they'd react. The gravity gun makes a huge difference to interactivity with the environment in Resurrection of Evil

 

Which is why I think it's a bad idea to have this in JKA. It'll be like having very static meshes flying about the map, and will look fugly. At least without ragdoll code

 

ragdoll is not what causes those effects, its JKA's extra physics system that already supports stuff like that *if* they are real entities, DOOM 3 can't just do that to the world either.

[JRHockney*]

One thing that I would still like to see in this point system is buyable soldier NPCs kind of like FM3 has except they would better done and maybe follow basic orders. I'm not sure if we have time before the next build to make them, but unfortunately, Razor's probably the only one who can successfully code them (aside from maybe Ensiform) and he said this may be his last build

 

If we were to make them, they should probably be buyable for 50 points each so players have to earn them and have no more than maybe 4 max (unless you think we can handle more without lag or whatever).

 

Also, can somebody who has 0.0.9p post a link to it? I dont see any link on this forum and I still can't get my code to compile.

[razorace]

Unfortunately, I don't think the NPC code is up to the task of doing something like that. NPCs simply can't follow the player as well as a TABBot could. Maybe if we had the time to overhaul the NPC navigation code but I don't see it happening in the amount of time I have left.

 

As for new version, I updated the link in the 'enhanced 0.1.0 is close' thread.

[JRHockney*]

I'm fine with a tabbot following the player around too, but it would be better if those tabbots dont take up a player slot because it could take up server space really fast. They probably could follow orders better though.

[Maxstate]

That sounds like a really dull feature to me, sorry.

Plus, if I wanted to play Forcemod, I wouldn't be here right now ;D.

 

Lets get some gadgets and weapon upgrade skills, or some lightsaber perks buyable from the profile screen. It's all about the vision of selection, we need more things to attract people by letting them have choices so they can't pick everything they want and use it in one go.

 

The flamethrower is a good example of such a thing, as is Razor's choice to make everything buyable from Profile. But how about instead of buying extra ammo, one can buy upgrades for his weaponry that have to do with damage, rate of fire, scopes, appendages/secondary fire etc. etc. I don't see it being THAT hard.

 

I've come to realise that I can live without saber perks and such, they aren't what OJP really needs right now even if they would be a really nice addition.

I'd rather see gun upgrades, more gadgets that use existing effects and Force powers getting different effects. Or just more Force powers like the amount Mysteries of the Sith had?

 

Well at the end of the day it's all about choice, if we can fill up the profile menu with bubbles that are worth buying, things that will differentiate MY character from yours, I think we would have lots more to show for. (don't get me wrong, we already have loads. The RPG mainframe is very excited about 0.1.0 for one)

[JRHockney*]

That sounds like a really dull feature to me, sorry.

Plus, if I wanted to play Forcemod, I wouldn't be here right now ;D.

 

Dull feature?! This is one of the cooler parts of FM3, plus our bots are a heck of alot smarter than FM3 bots. You also can't really order around FM3 bots very well and I'm sure we could make our bots do that.

 

I also think that MB2 sabers should be an option as well that is selectable. I really think they make fights look better and alot of people really like them. Of course we might have to modify them so they have slightly longer trials for attackfakes/power feints (or whatever we're calling them now). At the very least, somebody who actually knows what their doing should make a MB2 saber patch for 0.1.0. I tried to add in the code originally and it didn't go so well

[razorace]

Its seems like someone was working on that saber rendering system a while ago but they disappeared.

[Maxstate]

Yeah okay whatever, you'll get last say in this anyway, I'm sure

 

...need more buyable skills....must...have..more....bubbles..to...click on!

[UDM]

Well at the end of the day it's all about choice, if we can fill up the profile menu with bubbles that are worth buying, things that will differentiate MY character from yours, I think we would have lots more to show for. (don't get me wrong, we already have loads. The RPG mainframe is very excited about 0.1.0 for one)

 

QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I want to be able to greatly differentiate my character. The problem with JKA base is that...there's just no differentiation. Most Dark characters will choose Grip n Lightning. Most Light characters (if there are any, to begin with) will choose Heal and...um ok I think that's about it...Persuade too maybe. It's so standardised, you'd expect to see that most of the time in a full force server. It'd be so cool if everytime you enter the game, your gameplay experience is different because of your character customisation

[JRHockney*]

Since alot of players want more bubbles to click on, we should also probably bring back another light side force power as well. Probably mindtrick would be the best one to bring back since it was still a fairly functional force power. I was uncomfortable with getting rid of so many to begin with since new players might think we're cutting them short. We should be thinking of some other options as well having to do with force powers.

 

Rage could prbably be brought back as well with some differences. It would make you move fast again and maybe do 1.25 times more damage. As a trade off, your parries would only reduce damage by 1/2 and your mishap meter would go up faster for getting parried. The levels would be based around how fast it drains.

 

I also had an idea for protection. Maybe make it do that auto push for rockets and granades since not everyone likes that feature *coughs*Lathain*coughs* The levels could be based on how much it costs to auto push those or maybe what it can push. Maybe at level 3, you can block blaster bolts in melee for a huge cost like vader did in episode 5.

 

I still like that tabbot or NPC idea above too btw.

[Maxstate]

@UDM : Ya.

 

Since alot of players want more bubbles to click on, we should also probably bring back another light side force power as well. Probably mindtrick would be the best one to bring back since it was still a fairly functional force power. I was uncomfortable with getting rid of so many to begin with since new players might think we're cutting them short. We should be thinking of some other options as well having to do with force powers.

 

Rage could prbably be brought back as well with some differences. It would make you move fast again and maybe do 1.25 times more damage. As a trade off, your parries would only reduce damage by 1/2 and your mishap meter would go up faster for getting parried. The levels would be based around how fast it drains.

 

I also had an idea for protection. Maybe make it do that auto push for rockets and granades since not everyone likes that feature *coughs*Lathain*coughs* The levels could be based on how much it costs to auto push those or maybe what it can push. Maybe at level 3, you can block blaster bolts in melee for a huge cost like vader did in episode 5.

 

I still like that tabbot or NPC idea above too btw.

 

Yes!

 

I really like the idea of autopush only working with protect like this:

 

-Level 1 - 8 points - Perequisite level 1 sense : 1 Autopush every 5 seconds.

Drains regular sized Dp chunk and heightens mishap for 1/4.

Must be standing still to use.

(Passive power)

 

-Level 2 - 5 points - Autopushing can be done as soon as the first one is done. Drains only DP chunks.

Must walk or stand still to use.

(Passive)

 

Level 3 - 5 points -- Autopushing happens as soon as it can.

Drains half the DP it's supposed too.

You can now run and still use autopush, though if you jump it won't work.

(Passive)

 

Mindtrick (I'm gonna leave the clone idea for what it is right now because Vruki was the only one that supported me in it, and Vruki is having internets troubles)

 

Mindtrick 1 - 10 points -- Perequisite Level 2 Sense

You can mindtrick one opponent that:

-Has his back turned to you

or

-Is at critical DP

 

Mindtrick 2 - 8 points

You can mindtrick 1 opponent if he:

-Has no defenses whatsoever, defenses being

-Absorb level 2

-Push and Pull level 2 (Yes, two powers means that you're proficient at the force and not easily tricked by it)

 

Mindtrick 3 - 10 points -- Perequisite Sense 3

You can mindtrick anyone within a number of distance from you in a 360 degree angle if:

-They don't have at least Absorb 2

and

-Don't at least have Force Sense 2

 

 

I had the idea of changing Force Rage to Dark Sense or something like that.

I think if you want to buy Dark Side powers you should first learn Dark Sense just like you would sense to access the regular powers.

[UDM]

We can always get inspiration from KOTOR

 

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/file/star_wars_kotor_ii_force_powers.txt

 

Check out this guide

 

And for our Jedi saber skills, instead of the usual Saber Attack, Saber Defence and Saber Throw skills, I've come up with a list of ideas. Also, I suggest having more than 3 bubbles for some skills. I think 5 is good

 

Saber Attack - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you cause on others

Saber Defence - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you lose per hit

Saber Throw - affects how far you can throw your saber, as well as DP damage the saber causes

Yellow form - lets you learn Yellow. I suggest 3 skill bubbles here. Every increase in skill level will decrease the proportion of mishap that you suffer from for whatever reason. At level 1, your mishap goes up quickly. I think it's good to have this because it makes players more "attached" to their forms. In other words, it discourages the "jack of all trades and master of none" and "rock paper scissors" phenomenon

Blue form - same with Yellow

Teal form - same with Yellow

Red form - same with Yellow

Purple form - same with Yellow

Critical strike - increases the DP damage caused by saber locks

Parry - every level of this increases the mishap damage you do when you parry their attacks

Flurry - a skill that is activated once and lasts for a certain period of time. It lets you recover from bounce very quickly, at the cost of FP. Each level of Flurry determines how much time you have before it ends

Power attack - It allows you to increase the amount of damage caused by attack fakes. Like Flurry, it eats FP everytime its activated, and every increase in Power Attack level will allow the skill to last longer

Toughness - determines how fast you recover due to falling down from a mishap. This skill should have a cheap cost

Quick Dodge - increases your DP by 10 per skill level

Focus - you gain less mishap when your attacks are parried

Armor class - increases your armor by 25 per skill level. At 0 skill level, you start with 25 armor

Force channel - Force Jump and wall climb use up less force points

Reflex - Lose less DP when shot (doesnt include saber attacks)

 

I'm making an assumption here btw: every player will start off with 100dp, which can only be increased with the Quick Dodge skill. The reason why I think Saber Attack and Saber Def should focus on mishap and not DP is because if it did focus on DP, then everyone would stuff points into it. Essentially, that means there's no point in having the skill. I mean why should I spend the same amount of points on other skills, when there are 2 skills that, if I don't add points into, I'll lose the match for sure? Instead, mishap is emphasised as is, because if I drop my saber, I can always retrieve it back!

[Maxstate]

We can always get inspiration from KOTOR

 

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/file/star_wars_kotor_ii_force_powers.txt

 

Check out this guide

 

And for our Jedi saber skills, instead of the usual Saber Attack, Saber Defence and Saber Throw skills, I've come up with a list of ideas. Also, I suggest having more than 3 bubbles for some skills. I think 5 is good

 

Saber Attack - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you cause on others

Saber Defence - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you lose per hit

Saber Throw - affects how far you can throw your saber, as well as DP damage the saber causes

Yellow form - lets you learn Yellow. I suggest 3 skill bubbles here. Every increase in skill level will decrease the proportion of mishap that you suffer from for whatever reason. At level 1, your mishap goes up quickly. I think it's good to have this because it makes players more "attached" to their forms. In other words, it discourages the "jack of all trades and master of none" and "rock paper scissors" phenomenon

Blue form - same with Yellow

Teal form - same with Yellow

Red form - same with Yellow

Purple form - same with Yellow

Critical strike - increases the DP damage caused by saber locks

Parry - affects the mishap damage caused by parrying

Flurry - a skill that is activated once and lasts for a certain period of time. It lets you recover from bounce very quickly, at the cost of FP. Each level of Flurry determines how much time you have before it ends

Power attack - a skill that lasts for a certain period of time. It allows you to increase the amount of damage caused by attack fakes

Toughness - determines how fast you recover due to falling down from a mishap. This skill should have a cheap cost

Quick Dodge - increases your DP by 10 per skill level

Focus - you gain less mishap when your attacks are parried

Armor class - increases your armor by 25 per skill level. At 0 skill level, you start with 25 armor

Force channel - Force Jump and wall climb use up less force points

Reflex - Lose less DP when shot (doesnt include saber attacks)

 

I'm making an assumption here btw: every player will start off with 100dp, which can only be increased with the Quick Dodge skill. The reason why I think Saber Attack and Saber Def should focus on mishap and not DP is because if it did focus on DP, then everyone would stuff points into it. Essentially, that means there's no point in having the skill. I mean why should I spend the same amount of points on other skills, when there are 2 skills that, if I don't add points into, I'll lose the match for sure? Instead, mishap is emphasised as is, because if I drop my saber, I can always retrieve it back!

 

I already suggested something like this, but simpler. I think that something like this sounds pretty good but it wouldn't exactly work with the noob-friendliness we're trying to achieve with ojp.

 

I agree on powers like "Reflex" and "toughness", and I think they should give someone a permanent bonus instead of a timed effect. The saber Attack and Defense stuff is good as it is, though I would like to see buyable styles.

Up to 3 buyable styles with their own perks.

Or 3 buyable styles and seperate buyable perks that count for all styles?

[UDM]

Hmmm it may not hurt noob friendliness too much. The whole idea is to make players more fond of a certain style, so that they can call it their own. If I'm a n00b, I'd like to experiment with the choices that I'm given, instead of being forced. CS works in a similar fashion. It offers a variety of weapons, from pistols to snipers to machine guns. Yet, it remains n00b friendly, because it's fun to try out new things

 

Besides, who doesnt allocate all their points to Saber Attack and Defence in base JKA or even OJP? The problem with the system is that Attack and Defense are too important to not allocate points. I'd like to see an equal opportunity for all the skills ie. versatile, varied consumer choices, instead of fixed decision everytime one starts a game. Maybe I could try a defensive role today by having more points in saber defense and parrying, and less in offense. Then tomorrow, I'd try having a more offensive role by putting points in saber forms and saber attack. Whatever it is, there will not be a "jack of all trades" phenomenon because choices are too varied and numerous

 

I used to suggest perks a lot, but I think my mind has sort of changed recently. The main reason is that its impossible to achieve balance if there are many perks of varying degrees of usefulness. At least, that's the case for Jedi. Look at the gunner skills right now. It's very hard to achieve balance with the rocket launcher and blaster guns. The blaster is useful because its got a lot of ammo, and has fast killing potential. The pistol is just a waste of skillpoints. The rocket launcher is overpowered, and reducing ammo for it is not the solution because then it'd make the rocket launcher overpowered and all of a sudden, when you're out of ammo, you're cannon fodder

[Maxstate]

Hmmm it may not hurt noob friendliness too much. The whole idea is to make players more fond of a certain style, so that they can call it their own. If I'm a n00b, I'd like to experiment with the choices that I'm given, instead of being forced. CS works in a similar fashion. It offers a variety of weapons, from pistols to snipers to machine guns. Yet, it remains n00b friendly, because it's fun to try out new things.

 

Yes because shooting guns is pointing and clicking, our saber play is far far different and much more complex than shooting a gun in CS.

 

Besides, who doesnt allocate all their points to Saber Attack and Defence in base JKA or even OJP? The problem with the system is that Attack and Defense are too important to not allocate points. I'd like to see an equal opportunity for all the skills ie. versatile, varied consumer choices, instead of fixed decision everytime one starts a game. Maybe I could try a defensive role today by having more points in saber defense and parrying, and less in offense. Then tomorrow, I'd try having a more offensive role by putting points in saber forms and saber attack. Whatever it is, there will not be a "jack of all trades" phenomenon because choices are too varied and numerous

 

That's why we need the saber perks to be buyable.

Currently SabAttack only defines how much styles you have, Saber Defense defines only what percentage blaster bolts are deflected/reflected.

 

I'll admit that I would like a more deepgoing system too, but I forsee that people will have a lot more "WHAT THE ****KKKKKKKK IM OUT OF HERE BACK 2 FMoD3" if they don't understand why they're getting killed so often even though they have their regular build.

 

I used to suggest perks a lot, but I think my mind has sort of changed recently. The main reason is that its impossible to achieve balance if there are many perks of varying degrees of usefulness. At least, that's the case for Jedi. Look at the gunner skills right now. It's very hard to achieve balance with the rocket launcher and blaster guns. The blaster is useful because its got a lot of ammo, and has fast killing potential. The pistol is just a waste of skillpoints. The rocket launcher is overpowered, and reducing ammo for it is not the solution because then it'd make the rocket launcher overpowered and all of a sudden, when you're out of ammo, you're cannon fodder

We need saber perks that don't directly affect the result of a saber duel, unless the user knows how to use them correctly. Like the perk to buy extra Makashi Defense so you don't get any extra damage from back whacks.

It seems useless against one opponent, but if you're being charged by two people you can still have a nice chance to survive.

 

Guns are currently overpowered and boring to use because there is no recharge function. Hell, even Forcemod has a recharge function, you shoot your full ammo clip out and then recharge ammo for your gun and shoot again.

 

If you give rockets a cooldown and a reloading anim (like MB uses the holstering one and freezes it in place) it would make the rocket launcher much more strategic and less the FFA monsterkill weapon it is now.

 

The e-11 is the best allround weapon, I love it, I just don't like the fact that you can shoot 300 rounds out of it without the damn thing overheating or running out of ammo. Even clones in the war asked for ammo, and they didn't have sidearms just for the kick of it ffs!