"Why I care about Religion"

[Mace MacLeod]

"I care, because I was rejected by PBS for the role of Mr. Rogers by producers who said my voice was liable to give young children narcolepsy, but I really know they denied me that role because I'm an atheist."

 

Atheists are apparently not only the least trusted (non)religious minority in the US, they're also the dullest. The rise of the neocon religious Right in the US makes me uneasy for a lot of reasons, but the plight of the atheists somehow lacks the flash of Gitmo or the Iraqi Conquest. Feel free to cut 'n' paste any relevant comments I've added to the various other discussions about religion in threads here or the KotOR forums.

[Ray Jones]

First of all, I'm not thinking you're trying to bait me into an argument, nor do I think Spider AL says things he hasn't been thinking about carefully before. I'm not really sure why exactly he says you might be a troll, although I'm almost certain it's because of your .. unconventional style of debating things in here, and maybe he says it because he'd like you to think about it. That he's said it, is none of my business, nonetheless. And after all I can think for myself, and noone has been attacked, personally.

 

As for your point: I was brought up to reply to racist names like that with anger and violence.

That's wrong. Anger and violence are most probably going to cause more of itself, and are a most unfortunate choice of "weapon".

 

Being a pacifist just don't work with people with that much hate in them and flawed beliefs.

Being pacifist will more likely get others on your side than being "the same asshole" as the racist is would do.

 

 

[edit]

 

Anyways, not being exposed to excessive racist offence makes me kind of unable to have real insight on the topic of racism. However, I had a couple of lessons in "faces of violence in the world", and what always helped alot was being "cool" rather than "uncool". ;

[Windu Chi]

First of all, I'm not thinking you're trying to bait me into an argument, nor do I think Spider AL says things he hasn't been thinking about carefully before. I'm not really sure why exactly he says you might be a troll, although I'm almost certain it's because of your .. unconventional style of debating things in here, and maybe he says it because he'd like you to think about it. That he's said it, is none of my business, nonetheless. After all I can think for myself, and noone has been attacked, personally.

Cool !

 

I think Skinwalker going to end up editing our posts here, since we are talking about something else entirely.

 

Being pacifist will more likely get others on your side than being "the same asshole" as the racist is would do.

You know in some of these situations in my experience and the experience of others, this seem to fail.

And those that I know end up being seriously injured and some of who I don't know the experience of or don't know, end up being dead.

 

That's wrong. Anger and violence are most probably going to cause more of itself, and are a most unfortunate choice of "weapon".

That maybe true at first glance but the people who don't take this course of action end up being dead later in my observance of the 10:00 P.M. news.

 

I don't like violence personally but in some situations that threaten my life, I will use it gladly.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Ah, but he has. Rallied the Muslim world against the West, involved in September 11 and skiting about it. As I said there's nothing wrong with speech, it's how you use it.

There's also the possibility that Muslim extremists don't like the fact that the U.S. gives more foreign aid to Israel than any other country and not one loan we've given to Israel has been paid back (although there are a number of "black bag jobs" in South America that Israel carried out for us). There's also the fact that we used most countries there as pawns in during the Cold War and simply left them after they were torn apart by war. There's also the fact that we've stationed troops in many of their holy cities in Saudi Arabia in order to kiss the asses of the corrupt government in place there so that we can get their oil, even though Russia and Canada are thought to have the world's largest oil reserves beneath the miles of permafrost in both countries. Or maybe the fact that in Africa we back ruthless warlords instead of more qualified Muslim leaders just because they're aren't Islamic set them off. I dunno.

 

My point is: there are a lot better reasons for Islamic extremists to hate the Western world (and America in particular) than Osama bin Laden giving a speech. My point is also backed up by the fact that Islamic extremists have been around for quite some time (since before the time Osama bin Laden was being trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets), and have been killing people in many regions of the world.

 

 

In terms of freedom of speech, I believe that censorship is wrong just because someone might get upset, although I do draw a distinction between expressing one's opinion and being an ass. I also believe that if you insult someone who hates you, they'll be more likely to take it seriously than someone you're on good terms with.

 

---

 

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

 

-H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

[Nancy Allen``]

Ah. You stress the hoping part of it? (I mean there should be not problem in saying "Sorry, gays are not allowed to donate blood.") Where's the problem, except it being highly amoral?

 

The problem lies in trying to upset others. Are people allowed or should people be allowed to torment and persecute, in this case, homosexuals or other minority groups? No, they are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, even criminals, terrorists, rapists and pedophiles have rights. They don't deserve them but they do.

 

There's also the possibility that Muslim extremists don't like the fact that the U.S. gives more foreign aid to Israel than any other country and not one loan we've given to Israel has been paid back (although there are a number of "black bag jobs" in South America that Israel carried out for us).

 

There's many crimes to hold against America and the West. Governments and militaries the world over have lots to answer for, and terrorists in all honesty would be seen as more legitimate if their attacks were on these targets. What right do they have however to kill people who are in no way involved in the affairs of the government? None. They lose every shred of creditbility when they choose to attack civillian targets

 

In terms of freedom of speech, I believe that censorship is wrong just because someone might get upset, although I do draw a distinction between expressing one's opinion and being an ass.

 

Exactly, people should be free to say or view what they wish, anything they wish. But there are times, inciting racial hatred and declaring that women deserve to be raped are two, where the sons of bitches should be fried because they are actively participating in trying to bring about the view that, say, the Jews are vermin to be exterminated. Likewise for child pornography because, well, a child was sexually abused to make that product.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

There's many crimes to hold against America and the West. Governments and militaries the world over have lots to answer for, and terrorists in all honesty would be seen as more legitimate if their attacks were on these targets. What right do they have however to kill people who are in no way involved in the affairs of the government? None. They lose every shred of creditbility when they choose to attack civillian targets

The U.S. has killed thousands of civilians as well because we didn't give a damn who died, so long as we could declare victory. Are you saying that the U.S. (and nearly every European country as well) has lost its credibility as well? Despite what the media and White House press releases say, civilian casualties are a part of war, hence my viewpoint of "**** the both of you, stop arguing about whose morals are superior and stop massacring innocent civilians for money and/or the aforementioned morals."

 

Exactly, people should be free to say or view what they wish, anything they wish. But there are times, inciting racial hatred and declaring that women deserve to be raped are two, where the sons of bitches should be fried because they are actively participating in trying to bring about the view that, say, the Jews are vermin to be exterminated. Likewise for child pornography because, well, a child was sexually abused to make that product.

Fair enough.

[Nancy Allen``]

Are you saying that the U.S. (and nearly every European country as well) has lost its credibility as well?

 

Somewhat. At least they are willing to use diplomacy when practical. You'd be a fool to think there wasn't some political or military manuvering for them to get their own way, you can use Israel as an example of this, or Afghanistan to drive back the Soviets. It's still the best we have until someone comes along with some changes that make sense. Terrorists on the other hand seek to kill as many people as they can, the reason they have formally given when it all comes down to it is to destroy the West and force the world to their currupt view of Islam. When you strip away all the religious and idealogical claims they make this is what's left, straight from the horse's mouth.

[Ray Jones]

The problem lies in trying to upset others. Are people allowed or should people be allowed to torment and persecute, in this case, homosexuals or other minority groups? No, they are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, even criminals, terrorists, rapists and pedophiles have rights. They don't deserve them but they do. ...

[...]

... people should be free to say or view what they wish, anything they wish. But there are times, inciting racial hatred and declaring that women deserve to be raped are two, where the sons of bitches should be fried because they are actively participating in trying to bring about the view that, say, the Jews are vermin to be exterminated. Likewise for child pornography because, well, a child was sexually abused to make that product.

I agree. I've been thinking a bit about the discussion we had about what can be said and what not. I figured that I of course do not support what Bin Laden said, for instance. He, due to freedom of speech, has the right to say his things, as it seems to be his opinion. But I consider it to be kind of amoral to say things like this. Yes, everyone should be free to express whatever opinion he has, using any words he'd like to, but calling for violence against others (among other things you mentioned) hurts the dignity of others and as such has to be avoided, especially in public. It is simply amoral behaviour, which is, according to another thread, not nice.