Lightsaber Balance

[Rockstar]

First a quick question just to see what people actually use.

 

Now the issue. We all know that when created properly the hierachy in lightsaber power goes

 

- dual sabers

- staff

- light saber

 

We also know that no style is actually more powerful than the other. To make things more interesting the game makers made the staff stronger but less accurate, however, i higher levels this just underpowers the standard light saber. I've done kendo for a number of years and only done a bit of staff work. You do get access to new moves with a staff HOWEVER you lose just as many moves due to the fact that you cannot swing the staff any where near as strong across your body (as in this case the other blade would cut you in half) So i would really like to see why it is more powerful.

 

Dual sabers? Having two sets of lightsaber crystals really overpowers any character.

 

Yes, the standard saber has the highest defense but with all the implants and crystal enhansements, defense can be buffed enough for it not to be a problem for any character or class.

 

If any thing I would have assumed a standard blade to be the most powerful. Best blaster deflection and the most common among both Jedi and Sith.

 

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to balance this lightsaber system so all three styles are equal (as they should be). OK it is an easy game and can be beaten melee so in reality this doesn't create a problem. But maybe a final feat that raises the attack power of the lightsaber to equal that of a light staff?

 

What do you guys think of the current system

[EnIgmA_XX]

My character always uses dual sabers when I can. In my opinion, the differences between dual sabers, the staff saber, and the single saber is very unbalanced. Dual sabres are much better than staff sabers because of the 2 sets of crystals. Even if the staff does 2-24 damage and normal sabers 2-20, and even if staffs get a 1.5 strength modifier bonus on the dominant hand and the dual sabers only get a normal strength modifier bonus (on the off hand, both get .5 X str modifier bonus), dual sabers are better because you can put 2 extra crystals. After that, Staff sabers are better than a single saber because you get an extra attack and you do more damage. The dueling feat tree is a joke, the bonuses are hardly enough to cover for the extra damage+extra attack.

 

to balance everything (I think this should also apply for non-lightsaber melee weapons but it will need tweaking), I think that when you have dual sabers, in addition to the -10/-6 attack penalty you should get a -2 to str and dex because it is hard to use 2 blades and it is less powerful if each blade only has one hand's worth of force behind it. For a staff saber, you will have a -9/-5 attack penaly and -2 dex only (it is also hard to use a staff and if untrained, you'd be rather clumsy). For single sabers, you should get +1 dex because you can be more agile with your attacks if you don't have to coordinate 2 sabers or use a staff because you don't have to be afraid that if you swing wrong you'll cut yourself in half with the other side of a double bladed saber.

 

Now, you'd also need to change the feat trees. instead of the dual wield feat tree for dual sabers and staff weapons, it is only for dual sabers. There will be a new line of feats called "staff wielding" or something like that.

 

For the dual wield feat tree, the first feat will change your -10/-6 attack penalty to -6/-6 as normal, but you will also get +1 dex, so instead of -2 str and dex, you get -2 str and -1 dex. For improved dual wield, as usual, the attack becomes -4/-4, and you get +1 str, so the attribute penalties are -1 str and dex. Finally, for master dual wield your attack still becomes -2/-2 and you gain +1 dex so the attribute penaly is just -1 str (your saber strength will always be slightly weak because you still only have 1 hand holding each saber)

 

For the staff feat tree, the first will change -9/-5 to -5/-5 and you get +1 dex so the att penalty is -1 dex. For improved, it becomes -3/-3 and you get +1 dex so there is no att penalty. finally for master, you get -1/-1 and +1 str.

 

For the dueling feat line, you'll gain +2 attack and damage each time instead of +1. also, for the feat, you'll gain +1 dex, for improved dualing you get +1 str, and for master you get another +1 dex. at the end you get +6 attack and damage and +1 str and +3 dex.

 

as you can see, everything seems much more balanced (at least to me) the dual sabers get 2 extra crystal slots, but the staffs get a damage bonus, a slight attack bonus, and +1 str instead of -1 str. if you have 4 really good crystals you may consider dual sabers but otherwise you can just put your best 2 crystals in a staff.

 

For single sabers (I'll compare them to staffs) you get a good damage bonus so your attacks end up being slightly stronger than a double bladded saber. you also get a very good attack bonus and +1 str and +3 dex instead of only +1 str. The thing is that staffs get an extra attack. when deciding to use a single or staff, it comes down to whether the attack bonus is useful to you or not. If you are a jedi guardian with high str, it might not be useful to you so you'd use a staff, but if you're a consular with low str that can't really hit anything (like my char XD) you'd use the single saber because the attack bonus is useful.

 

I think that this makes everything much more balanced now. I know that it would be very hard to mod something like this, and some things in feats are hard coded, but I think that if this could be implemented, it would make the system better.

 

btw, I'm sorry for the long post. I was rolling this exact problem in my head the entire day (I don't really have a life) and suddenly a thread appears about this very subject. Anyway, that's all for now!

[SilentScope001]

...Er, wouldn't it just be better to BUFF enemies rather than worry about lightsaber balance? If the enemies are harder, all lightsaber styles are equally nerfed and therefore, the game would be harder and more fun.

[Rockstar]

great idea enigma!

 

umm.. silent scope... i don't think you really read what the topic is about lol

 

we are talking about how the saber styles compare to each other. Not the enemies in the game.

[EnIgmA_XX]

...Er, wouldn't it just be better to BUFF enemies rather than worry about lightsaber balance? If the enemies are harder, all lightsaber styles are equally nerfed and therefore, the game would be harder and more fun.

 

SilentScope, you are correct in saying that all the styles would be equally nerfed, but the original problem is that they aren't balanced to begin with. Dual sabers>>>Double blade>>>Single saber. After they are balanced, then we can worry about the fact that the enemies are too easy. I myself use some hardcore mods to stop this problem but there hasn't been a mod that I've seen that solves this problem yet.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, a more simple approach would be to leave the dueling as is for single sabers, but allow lightsaber to get INCREASED DIE DAMAGE and 1.5 STR BONUS as per two-handed weapon if only a single saber is used, sorta like a bastardsword/katana in D20 system.

 

That would solve most problem without much tweaking. So the single saber whould be good for guys with decent strength, or defending type who is in for only the AC bonus.

[EnIgmA_XX]

^^^ So the single saber would have a 1.5 X str multiplier like the dominant hand of a double blade and it would cause somewhat more damage, but the staff still gets an entire extra attack. The pretty good damage bonus still won't be able to compare to 2 attacks from a staff. As well, you still have to balance the dual sabers because they're still on top of the other 2 styles.

[SilentScope001]

SilentScope, you are correct in saying that all the styles would be equally nerfed, but the original problem is that they aren't balanced to begin with. Dual sabers>>>Double blade>>>Single saber. After they are balanced, then we can worry about the fact that the enemies are too easy. I myself use some hardcore mods to stop this problem but there hasn't been a mod that I've seen that solves this problem yet.

 

I just don't see the point. I use double-bladed sabers because I want to. Sure, it would be better to use dual sabers, but I don't care about gaining levels quickly. I care about looking like a Darth Maulain supervillian.

 

In an MMO, especially in PvP, game balance is very important. But when you are playing against NPCs who don't care that you are pwning them that qucikly, game balance becomes meanignless. All PCs are inherently better than NPCs, that is just their nature. The main emphasis in the KOTOR seriersis on story, not on gameplay.

 

Still, I can understand your problems. Is it possible to mod in the changes to gameplay PoiuyWired suggests? Or is it hard-coded?

[legend222]

Story is more important than gameplay but the game still needs to be balanced. A sequel should either add more penalties for using dual blades and staff or add more bonuses for the single hilt. The +3 def and +3 attack bonus is in no way comparable to the two extra crystal slots of the two lightsabers or the extra damage of a staff. I think if the single weapons had +6 def and +6 attack bonus they wouldn't be so underpowered.

[Rockstar]

I think that there should be a final feat for the single blade that adds an extra attack. It does not make sense for the staff to have an extra attack over the single blade when you can only strike with one blade at a time any way. In terms of the dual blades, you can swing one blade with the force of both hands faster than a single hand holding a hilt so the speed factor should only be 1/2 attack per round given to the dual sabers.

 

The fact is all should be equal at the end of the day as it is the strength in the force of the user that shows how powerful the dualist is (using the force to predict your oponent and channel your energy)

[EnIgmA_XX]

I think you have a good point, Rockstar. I've never thought about the speed that you swing your melee weapon in that way before and you're correct in saying that in the end, they should all be attacking at about the same rate. That would be a good final feat for dueling. The only problem is that now dual sabers and double sabers have no clear advantage over dueling. The advantage of dueling is the AC, attack bonus and modest damage bonus, and the advantage of a staff is 2 attacks. If a single saber gets 2 attacks, what happens to the staff and dual sabers?

[Fish.Stapler]

I have some spare time, and I've been thinking about making a "duelist aficionado" mod. I've been looking into making similiar changes like this.

 

dueling is +2 atk + 2 def for each feat.

2-handed penalty knocked back an extra -2/-2.

 

Those were the only changes I was planning. Single Saber is defensive style anyways, so I don't see the point of adding an extra attack, even with saber style combat actually appearing that way. +6 defense on top of the ridiculous defense possible makes you nigh unhittable, and with an extra attack you'd steamroll over sith troopers faster than with 2h.

 

Can someone critique the ideas and/or give me other ideas on how I should balance this?

[Jediphile]

I've done kendo for a number of years and only done a bit of staff work. You do get access to new moves with a staff HOWEVER you lose just as many moves due to the fact that you cannot swing the staff any where near as strong across your body (as in this case the other blade would cut you in half) So i would really like to see why it is more powerful.

 

Yes, you can't swing it as fast, but then you don't need to - a lightsaber has very little weight and its mere touch is fairly deadly, so you don't need to hack with it like you do with a normal (and heavy) sword. While I agree with you that the saber-rules in Star Wars d20 RPG/KotOR games are completely absurd, that point was already made by Liam Neeson in the extra material of the Phantom Menace dvd, and I don't think it's entirely irrelevant.

 

Then again, while I don't know anything about these fighting styles myself, I don't think we have to. I invite anyone to pick up a couple of light sticks, two the length of a sword and one the length of a staff. Now try using the staff, both swords and then just one sword. Like you say, you can't put your weight behind the staff and that limits the options - it's a large and unwieldy weapon.

 

Two swords may seem better, but the principle (of KotOR games) that simply having two swords is twice as good as one is just silly. Anyone who thinks so should try actually swinging around any two sticksk with a length of several feet, a couple of flyswatters would do, since they weigh practically nothing. It's actually really hard to avoid having them clash together constantly. Because while you do have two arms, you still only have one brain to coordinate them with, and that is almost completely ignored by the rules. A fixed penalty just doesn't cover it.

 

dual sabers are better because you can put 2 extra crystals.

 

Or even five extra crystals in each lightsaber in TSL, which really just adds insult to injury

 

The only solution to that problem is to not allow all those crystals anymore. They don't seem to have much basis in the movies or other material anyway...

 

I think that when you have dual sabers, in addition to the -10/-6 attack penalty you should get a -2 to str and dex because it is hard to use 2 blades and it is less powerful if each blade only has one hand's worth of force behind it. For a staff saber, you will have a -9/-5 attack penaly and -2 dex only (it is also hard to use a staff and if untrained, you'd be rather clumsy). For single sabers, you should get +1 dex because you can be more agile with your attacks if you don't have to coordinate 2 sabers or use a staff because you don't have to be afraid that if you swing wrong you'll cut yourself in half with the other side of a double bladed saber.

 

Meh. Rather than rebalance it all, that seems to just invert the problem by simply making double and dual sabers suck, while single sabers rock. That's still unbalanced. Besides, I don't see why your stats should suffer, because while wielding the sabers may require more concentration, it would not make the wielder less agile against other attacks.

 

As for Strength, I don't get that either - there is no reason why it would reduce the character's carrying capacity, and Strength shouldn't matter to lightsaber combat anyway for the reasons given above. The only reason why it does under D&D/d20 rules is because the alternative is Dexterity, which already affects both ranged to-hit and AC/defense and so would be too advantageous. The system is just flawed at the core, if you ask me, but then I'm a noted d20 skeptic and always have been.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Meh. Rather than rebalance it all, that seems to just invert the problem by simply making double and dual sabers suck, while single sabers rock. That's still unbalanced. Besides, I don't see why your stats should suffer, because while wielding the sabers may require more concentration, it would not make the wielder less agile against other attacks.

 

As for Strength, I don't get that either - there is no reason why it would reduce the character's carrying capacity, and Strength shouldn't matter to lightsaber combat anyway for the reasons given above. The only reason why it does under D&D/d20 rules is because the alternative is Dexterity, which already affects both ranged to-hit and AC/defense and so would be too advantageous. The system is just flawed at the core, if you ask me, but then I'm a noted d20 skeptic and always have been.

 

Although I do need to tone down the bonuses of dueling more, it doesn't really seem unbalanced to me. Both dual sabers and staff sabers get an extra attack, and the dual sabers can have extra crystals in it. Some of the crystals in the KOTOR are rather strong in my opinion, by giving many attribute points and damage bonuses, which is why I made dueling much more powerful. As for the strength, I don't get the part about carrying capacity, but know what you are telling me about for fighting with lightsabers. I understand what you mean and this has been bothering me as well, but if 2 people fighting with lightsabers (one dueling and one with dual sabers) were deadlocked and the sabers were pushing against each other, I think the person dueling would win because both hands hold one saber and their strength is more concentrated than the person with dual sabers. Of course, this only applies if the saber and another melee weapon are connecting, and doesn't apply for simply hacking. I know that my idea is flawed and needs some bit of tweaking to say the least, but for now it's the best idea I have. We still need to find some way to balance all three styles.

 

EDIT: I forgot to justify me putting dexterity penalties on the staff and dual sabers. Actually, it does make the wielder less agile against other attacks. When you are wielding a staff or dual sabers untrained (in KOTOR, that means without the dual wielding feats) you are more clumsy wielding the sabers and it hinders your movement. You said yourself that the blades would keeping clashing together if you don't know how to use them. This alone is part of the reason that your defence is reduced, because your movement is hindered and it is harder to defend that way. As, well, you said that it requires concentration. This as well, will hurt your defence because if you are diverting concentration simply to use the blade(s), then it is harder to see attacks coming and in real life, this will make you lose the precious half second you need to defend yourself properly. As you get better in using your style of saber wielding, you will be able to divert less concentration to using your sabers, and your muscle memory will assist in making sure that your sabers don't collide, or the other side of your weapon doesn't cut you, therefore reducing of eliminating your dex penalty.

[Jediphile]

Although I do need to tone down the bonuses of dueling more, it doesn't really seem unbalanced to me. Both dual sabers and staff sabers get an extra attack, and the dual sabers can have extra crystals in it. Some of the crystals in the KOTOR are rather strong in my opinion, by giving many attribute points and damage bonuses, which is why I made dueling much more powerful.

 

To say the least! While crystals are cool and all, they do unbalance the game for this very reason, especially in TSL. And yes, to give extra attacks to dual and double sabers doesn't make too much sense. The saberstaff would seem more troubling, because you can't deflect it without incurring another attack, as doing so would just push the opposite end towards you. On the other hand, the saberstaff would be that much more difficult to wield properly for the same reason.

 

As for the strength, I don't get the part about carrying capacity,

 

I just meant that if you impose a general Strength penalty, then you also limit the amount of equipment the character can carry, and that should not be affected because it's not relevant. However, I should probably hasten to admit that the argument doesn't have much relevant in this discussion, since KotOR games do not seem to apply encumbrance for carried gear as D&D/d20 tabletop rules usually do. In short, my bad - it's not terribly important

 

but know what you are telling me about for fighting with lightsabers. I understand what you mean and this has been bothering me as well, but if 2 people fighting with lightsabers (one dueling and one with dual sabers) were deadlocked and the sabers were pushing against each other, I think the person dueling would win because both hands hold one saber and their strength is more concentrated than the person with dual sabers. Of course, this only applies if the saber and another melee weapon are connecting, and doesn't apply for simply hacking.

 

Actually, I think that would depend on your posture, since most people tend to lift and push with their legs and not their arms. Besides, a person wielding the saberstaff would naturally still have both his hands on his weapon, and I would not want to be locked in a fight against dual sabers with a single weapon, because it would mean the other guy has the other hand free with a lightsaber in it! Even if I could push him back, he would need preciously few instants to stab me with his other lightsaber...

 

I know that my idea is flawed and needs some bit of tweaking to say the least, but for now it's the best idea I have. We still need to find some way to balance all three styles.

 

Well, I'm not sure we absolutely NEED to balance it. It would be nice to make it a little more balanced than it is now. I mean, actually using a single saber is out of the question if you min/max the system. I only let Jolee take a single saber in KotOR because he had very few feats and was already building Dueling. And in TSL Kreia got to built it because she only had one hand. EVERYBODY else would built two-weapon fighting.

 

If the point is to make it all make more sense, then I'd give up in advance, because I don't see how that can be fixed under the current rules. Don't let that stop you from trying, though. It's just that I've been contemplating a more realistic system for my homebrewed tabletop rpg, and that is a LOT more complex than what we see in d20/KotOR combat. As Rockstar points out above, that sort of thing means considering which moves are available with which weapons, how fast they are, etc. etc.

[Rockstar]

Force Longpost (sorry but it raises valid points ) lol

 

Those were the only changes I was planning. Single Saber is defensive style anyways, so I don't see the point of adding an extra attack

?

 

What??? it has the strongest block, yes. But it also has the strongest swing! Look at Darth Vader in Ep 3 final dual. Both dualists have both hands on their sabers at all times to absorb the hard shots.

 

Actually, I think that would depend on your posture, since most people tend to lift and push with their legs and not their arms. Besides, a person wielding the saberstaff would naturally still have both his hands on his weapon, and I would not want to be locked in a fight against dual sabers with a single weapon, because it would mean the other guy has the other hand free with a lightsaber in it! Even if I could push him back, he would need preciously few instants to stab me with his other lightsaber...

 

This is a valid point. Many people think that having two weapons over one means pushing the weapon asside with one sword and stabbing them with the other. Yes, this could happen, even when you are only holding the weight of the hilt. If you are facing someone only using one hand on their saber this has a high chance of happening (unless you're a very powerful Jedi/Sith). However, the strikes you make with two sabers have to be very strong when facing a two handed weapon and here you would lose some speed in having to strike harder. Also, it is veeery easy to belt a single weapon out of a single hand with a two handed swing (or even worse having your own lightsaber bashed into your body/limb, taking you down) so you must defend against heavy strikes by crossing your sabers over. It works out to be a fair fight, each having its own advantages.

-two sabers: slight speed factor, vercitility in attacks, suprise element

-single saber: stronger attacks, stronger defense

conclusion: it all comes down to who is faster and stronger

 

 

OK lets re-examine this system. In the next game GET RID of this two-weapon spec, dualing and all this rubbish and create THREE new feat streams

* Light saber mastery

* Dual saber mastery

* Light staff mastery

 

each progresses at the same rate but due to this specialisation a staff wielder, you will not be able to wield two sabers at equal ability. Surely if you start out with one of the three in real life, you will be able to progress at a similar rate. This system allows for specialisation and balance.

 

To balance the dual crystal issue. Only allow 3 crystals in each light saber. When you equip a fully fitted saber and then put another in your off hand the 3 crystal slots on the right become inactive or go back to your inventory?

 

Overall seems fair to me. We can still build a dual wielder or a two handed user but still have equality and we can all live happy

 

What do you guys think?

 

The light staff in reality would be hardest to master but (forgive me darth maul fans...) it is NOT as versitile as the other two styles. The hilt is huge to hold two crystals and you are so limited on strikes that wont cut you in half lol. Dooku would have owned Obi and Qui Gon, not because of his saber but coz he is more powerful with the force.

[SilentScope001]

Two swords may seem better, but the principle (of KotOR games) that simply having two swords is twice as good as one is just silly. Anyone who thinks so should try actually swinging around any two sticksk with a length of several feet, a couple of flyswatters would do, since they weigh practically nothing. It's actually really hard to avoid having them clash together constantly. Because while you do have two arms, you still only have one brain to coordinate them with, and that is almost completely ignored by the rules. A fixed penalty just doesn't cover it.

 

There is such a thing as dual-wield, you know, for pistols and for swords. You see it in games, and quite possibly in real-life. Remember, these people are BETTER than us. We can't co-ordinate it, but why can't they?

 

OK lets re-examine this system. In the next game GET RID of this two-weapon spec, dualing and all this rubbish and create THREE new feat streams

* Light saber mastery

* Dual saber mastery

* Light staff mastery

 

HEY! What about the non-Lightsaber wielding Jedi?

 

Alright, so I rarely part with my lightsaber. But when dueling with Birrana or the Mandalorians, they pryed the Lightsaber out of my hand and then forced me to choose another meele weapon.

 

Dueling, and two-handed weaponary are not just for lightsabers, they are for other meele weapons such as some Uber-Axes I looted a while back. With the Uber-Axes (and the two-handed weapon feats), I defeated the Mandloraians and Birrana. But now you get rid of the dueling and two-handed weapon feats, I don't know how to use my Uber-Axe. I single-handly lose to the Mandlorian bastads...and an Echani girl! Nooo...

[Rockstar]

HEY! What about the non-Lightsaber wielding Jedi?

 

Well any character built for melee should be able to beat the echani hand to hand anyway...

 

as for dual wielding pistols and swords then they have the normal dual wield feats (why would a Jedi need these with the lightsaber masteries)

 

This combined with the system outlined above i think creates a cool system that would be interesting

[Jediphile]

There is such a thing as dual-wield, you know, for pistols and for swords. You see it in games, and quite possibly in real-life. Remember, these people are BETTER than us. We can't co-ordinate it, but why can't they?

 

They can, but just because they're more skilled does mean that the impossible becomes acceptable. That's like saying that just because I can fly like Superman or shoot lightning like Palpatine, then it doesn't mean that other people in the real world cannot. Common sense for the win!

 

Dueling, and two-handed weaponary are not just for lightsabers, they are for other meele weapons such as some Uber-Axes I looted a while back. With the Uber-Axes (and the two-handed weapon feats), I defeated the Mandloraians and Birrana. But now you get rid of the dueling and two-handed weapon feats, I don't know how to use my Uber-Axe. I single-handly lose to the Mandlorian bastads...and an Echani girl! Nooo...

 

Surely the same principle applies, no matter what the weapon. Lightsabers are a little different because they have no weight to speak of and are deadly to the touch, but the difference between axes and vibroswords seems small enough that skill would cover both. Not sure the same should apply to ranged weapons though - there is a big difference between using two guns and two swords.

[PoiuyWired]

^^^ So the single saber would have a 1.5 X str multiplier like the dominant hand of a double blade and it would cause somewhat more damage, but the staff still gets an entire extra attack. The pretty good damage bonus still won't be able to compare to 2 attacks from a staff. As well, you still have to balance the dual sabers because they're still on top of the other 2 styles.

 

Nope, Increased Die Damage, means all damaged based rolls is inccreased by one grade, including crystals.

 

So a D10 damasge crystal becomes a D12, a D8 becomes a D10 and so on.

 

It may not look like much, but added with the strength bonus and the regular bonus on dueling its quite a bit more, closer to +8 or so.

 

Well obviously it is still a bit weaker, which is reasonable. There can be styles that would work on only one saber.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Oh, okay I understand now and that seems to make sense. I didn't know what increased die damage was before. What about balancing the overpowered dual sabers though?

[Robb Stark]

Given that KotOR uses a modified NWN/d20 system, which seems to employ single vs. dual vs. double fairly reasonably for the most part, I'd have to assume that the problem lies in what KotOR does differently.

 

Lightsaber crystals/parts seem to be the biggest difference IMO. Simply by toning down the benefits of crystals/parts you bring dual sabers more in line with double and single sabers.

 

The next option would be to improve the effectiveness of enemies. The problem with single sabers, for example, is that the defensive bonuses don't make up for the damage potential of dual and double sabers, because the enemies are too weak offensively, and sabers too effective against them. You could make enemies more dangerous or you could make lightsabers less effective. Wading into melee combat against a group of enemies while armed with two lightsabers, for example, should be more of a gamble than it is. Something as simple as reducing the AC bonuses of Jedi armor/items makes defensive bonuses for single saber combat more significant in relative terms. A 6 AC bonus when a typical AC is, say, 20, is not as significant as when the typical AC is 10.

 

I'm not really a fan of messing with melee combat mechanics, since overzealousness for balance in terms of mechanics tends to lead toward making two different weapons or weapon styles functionally identical--IOW, the damage potential per round of dual/double/single sabers being exactly the same (I had a similar argument with someone who eventually admitted that his view of "balanced" ranged weapons in RPGs reduced to crossbows and longbows functioning exactly the same, the only difference being that the animations looked different). That *is not* balance. Not truly anyway. Balance is making advantages in one place make up for deficiencies somewhere else, and vice versa. If dual sabers are clearly the best and single sabers clearly the worst, then dual saber users are not being penalized enough IN OTHER AREAS and/or single saber users are not receiving enough bonuses IN OTHER AREAS. A more appropriate response IMO might be something like tinkering with the use of Force Powers given a certain combat style (for example, a Jedi twirling two sabers in combat should not be able to call on Force Powers as quickly and easily as a single-saber user focusing on defense, particularly in a "scrum"--maybe a dual wielder should be forced to go last in the round after he switches from saber combat to a Force Power so that his enemies get a free shot on him). Maybe single-saber users should be able to better keep up Force-based protections than those with double or dual sabers. Maybe dual-saber users should receive an (substantial?) AC penalty in addition to their Attack Bonus penalties, or perhaps a penalty to AC when being attacked by someone other than the person they're targeting, as opposed to a double-saber user who is not penalized for being attacked by an opponent they are not technically engaged in combat with.

 

I don't know how possible it is to mod such things into the game, but I would urge caution in messing with the STR bonus, Attack Bonuses, Attacks Per Round, etc. etc. of the various styles so that you don't end up with vanilla single-saber damage per round = 13, dual-saber = 14 and double-saber = 14.5 rendering the style you choose from a purely offensive damage standpoint effectively irrelevant.

[Rockstar]

I agree that each saber should have half the crystals when dual wielding.

 

I'm sorry but the AD&D system does not work well in terms of dual wielding in this game. In D&D games certain classes like kensai have a use for single wield and only some classes can use dual weapons or actually benefit from a two handed weapon.

 

In this game you are jedi and ONLY a jedi. Why the hell should i have to have a less offensive character just because he doesn't fight unorthodox?! This rubbish about extra damage with the staff and dual sabers getting a WHOLE attack per round? They should all be equal or the differences should be so subtle as to make very little difference IMO.

 

Look at my proposed system above... i think it's pretty cool

[Jediphile]

I'm sorry but the AD&D system does not work well in terms of dual wielding in this game.

 

I'm assuming you mean D&D 3.x/d20. AD&D has not been in play this millennium.

 

You're being to kind, though. Personally I'd say the system doesn't work at all. Period. And I've played 3e tabletop, too (which is why I stuck with the old 2e rules for my own AD&D campaign...)

 

Simple solution for the crystals, though - allow only one colour crystal and one "buff" crystal in standard and double-handed lightsabers, but only the colour crystal - no "buff" crystal - in the small lightsaber. Then outlaw using two standard lightsabers - if you want to use dual lightsabers, then it must be a standard lightsaber and a short lightsaber.

 

There, problem solved. It even cuts down on the munchkin-factor too, which is always a good start

[EnIgmA_XX]

That's a great idea, Jediphile! that would definitely work great. btw, I don't really know, what are these d20 and AD&D and D&D things?