Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[Jediphile]

^^

 

Agreed, except that "a couple of Sith Lords that surivied the destruction of the Sith Empire" doesn't cover it IMHO. Bear in mind what happened when the Sith Empire fell. The Sith fleets of Kressh and Sadow clashed, annihilating each other. The Republic fleet then jumped in, having followed Sadow back to the Sith Empire. They mobbed up the remains of the fleets, then chased after Sadow as he tried to flee. Believing him destroyed, they then went home to the Republic.

 

So while that leaves the Sith Empire in ruins because they have no fleets left, and Naga Sadow had all the most powerful Sith Lords killed by the Massassi so they couldn't object to his plan to escape, that still leaves all the populations of the fallen empire behind on their worlds. I've never seen anything to suggest the Republic then laid waste to those worlds and wiped out the populations of those worlds, if they even knew of all of them, which I find unlikely - Gav gave the Republic coordinates to wherever Sadow's and Kressh's fleets clashed, and Jori had coordinates to Korriban, but we have no idea if the Republic even knew of all those worlds. Heck, they didn't even know that Malachor V was a Sith world. And we have little or no idea if they knew of Khar Shian/Delba, Rhelg, Ziost, Thule, etc. That would leave entire populations alive, who could grow back in, say, a century or so. It's now been over a millennium...

[Nancy Allen``]

Depending on what exactly Revan did, whether he simply overthrew rule or actually bombed planets, he isn't that diffirent to George Bush. Should he be executed over the invasion of Afghanistan? Iraq?

[Jediphile]

Let's not get political - that's certain to start a flamewar at some point.

 

I'll just say that there are obvious differences between Revan causing the devastation at Malachor V just to subvert the jedi and what Bush did, and then I'll leave it at that.

[Gargoyle King]

Depending on what exactly Revan did, whether he simply overthrew rule or actually bombed planets, he isn't that diffirent to George Bush. Should he be executed over the invasion of Afghanistan? Iraq?

 

Bush is a pain in the neck, like my Prime Minister Mr. Blair. Bush can't really compare to Revan, i don't see Bush running around without lightsabers force-chocking people !

Seriously, you can't execute a President over a stupid decision, that's what the Iraq War was - a stupid decision that has escalated so much over time that's impossible to revert to a pre-war level. Sure you can argue against the decision for war (although the invasion of Afghanistan is pushing it a bit), but arguing does nothing at the end of the day. Saddam was hung for the genocide of his own people, the same as any other mass murderer should be; now Bush can be considered responsible for the deaths of all Allied Forces in Iraq - HE DID INSTIGATE THIS MESS! - but overall there are different reasons that lead to the Iraq War (like in WW1, can you really consider the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, the Austrian Archduke as the definitave sparking point for war?) therefore the blame spreads to many other people say the ministers for war etc. Basically my point is that Executing a leader will NEVER sort out a problem there and then, and even if it did the damage is already done with the Iraq War and so wouldn't really help anyone anyway.

 

Let's not get political - that's certain to start a flamewar at some point.

 

I honestly don't see the the harm - as long as it's friendly i feel its good to talk about current political subjects that are on people's minds.

[stoffe]

Mod note: Please keep the discussion to the Star Wars setting and keep the real world politics dicussion to the Kavar's Corner forum. This thread is about Revan's status as a traitor to the Republic, not the war in Iraq.

[Nancy Allen``]

Revan is less Superman, who not only caught the bad guys but made sure they used a napkin in prison, and more The Athority who fought the bad guys using bad guy rules and did whatever it took to win. This play for keeps attitude has become more and more prevelent, from Punisher to Batman and even Superman when he fought Athority knock offs The Elite. Should someone who kills a murderer be put to death? How about someone who sought not mass slaughter as Malak did but ursuping of governments and convincing people to his side? How much of Revan's policy was 'join us or die'? Given how he preferred to convert Jedi rather than kill them; as explained by Atton, and his use of assassination rather than outright conflict, just how much blood is on Revan's hands? More than those who he killed either directly or through his actions during the Mandalorian Wars? What about the Exile? Can she be blamed for the deaths she caused, either fighting the Mandalorians or...wasn't she responsible for Sion and Nihilous? For that matter, should the Jedi have to face up to the deaths they are responsible for through their inaction?

[Jediphile]

Revan is less Superman, who not only caught the bad guys but made sure they used a napkin in prison, and more The Athority who fought the bad guys using bad guy rules and did whatever it took to win. This play for keeps attitude has become more and more prevelent, from Punisher to Batman and even Superman when he fought Athority knock offs The Elite. Should someone who kills a murderer be put to death? How about someone who sought not mass slaughter as Malak did but ursuping of governments and convincing people to his side? How much of Revan's policy was 'join us or die'? Given how he preferred to convert Jedi rather than kill them; as explained by Atton, and his use of assassination rather than outright conflict, just how much blood is on Revan's hands? More than those who he killed either directly or through his actions during the Mandalorian Wars?

 

I see your points, but you have to consider that Revan did not merely kill murderers or enemy soldiers during wartime - he also killed civilians. And I get the sense that you're somehow implying that Revan's crime against the jedi is less because he tried to convert them rather than just kill them. First of all, Revan did so to build his own army of Sith and not to show pity on the jedi in any way, and second, given what sort of danger any Sith represents, the potential damage to the galaxy from converting jedi to sith is far more nefarious than just killing them. That cannot be an argument that speaks in Revan's favor, if you ask me.

 

What about the Exile? Can she be blamed for the deaths she caused, either fighting the Mandalorians or...wasn't she responsible for Sion and Nihilous?

 

The exile caused Nihilus' existence, but I don't think you can blame him for it - it was an intuitive reaction that caused it, not a willful or conscious one. That would be akin to blaming someone for letting go of someone who then falls to his death because his hand was burned. If the exile has committed crimes in that area, it's mostly in denying and even suppressing his knowledge of what he did for so long. But that's closer to criminal negligence at worst, and not like murder or genocide, which you could accuse Revan of.

 

For that matter, should the Jedi have to face up to the deaths they are responsible for through their inaction?

 

Yes, but they have paid for it with their lives now. I don't think they all deserved it, though. At least Zez-Kai Ell acknowledged their failings. It's so unfair that the only one of them who can possibly survive TSL is Atris, given that her crime was greatest of all. Then again, if Atris lives, I suppose bearing witness to that fact is her punishment.

[Nancy Allen``]

Just exactly what did Revan do when he was a Sith? He fought the Echanis I know that much, how? What about other worlds? Did he bomb them, assassinate their leaders and take over, what?

[Allronix]

I ain't touching the Iraq argument with a double-sided saber. I've opinions that'll make a lot of people mad.

 

Anyway, since comic books were brought up, a prime example for analogy would be Hal Jordan. The GL Corps are quite a bit like the Jedi - they police the universe with great powers they only achieve through willpower and the taming of fear. After the destruction of his home base, Hal went berzerk and was horribly corrupted by the Parallax entity. He slaughtered most of the Corps, turned on his pals, and cut a wide swath of destruction before his best friend delivered a wake-up call in the form of an arrow to his chest. Hal's atonement was giving his life to reignite Earth's sun, followed by a snit as the Spectere. Yes, Hal was resurrected, and his crimes forgiven because this is comics.

 

Killing off Revan in K2? Well, it certainly would have made the Brin faction happy, and fit in with the proverbial bird flipped to K1 players in K2's tone. It would have made a lot of sense. On the flip side, it would have made K2 Star Wars in name only. Yes, there would be lightsabers and Hutts, but it would have completely killed anything left of the Star Wars spirit

[EnIgmA_XX]

Killing off Revan in K2? Well, it certainly would have made the Brin faction happy, and fit in with the proverbial bird flipped to K1 players in K2's tone. It would have made a lot of sense. On the flip side, it would have made K2 Star Wars in name only. Yes, there would be lightsabers and Hutts, but it would have completely killed anything left of the Star Wars spirit

 

yes, i can acnowledge that. i know that something happening like this (as in Revan's execution) in the Star Wars universe is unheard of and goes against everything Star Wars stands for. i've put this in an earlier post and i know that as far as Star Wars is concerned, this won't be happening. what i (and i think everyone else) is trying to debate is whether Revan deserved execution, not whether he/she will actually be killed, because it's obvious enough that it will never happen.

 

How about someone who sought not mass slaughter as Malak did but ursuping of governments and convincing people to his side? How much of Revan's policy was 'join us or die'? Given how he preferred to convert Jedi rather than kill them; as explained by Atton, and his use of assassination rather than outright conflict, just how much blood is on Revan's hands?

 

although Revan probably did prefer assasination rather than in your face conflict, there was probably still quite a bit of direct fighting, as in attacking military bases and such. this is mostly IMO and there isn't any kind of reference to the game for this, but i think despite Revan's nature, there would still be lots of direct fighting. Telos is a good example. people can debate whether it was Revan's fault or not, but the destruction was still due to the JCW, which Revan caused in the first place.

 

next of all, he/she only tried to convince jedi to his/her side. everyone else could go ahead and burn, in his/her opinion. and yes, there was a "join us or die" approach to Revan's tactics. in case you've forgotten, Revan tortured captive jedi to turn them to his/her side. if they would not go to his/her side, they would be killed. this is all taken from Atton's "talk".

 

so yeah, from all of this, i think that it's safe to say that at the very least, there's a h*ll of a lot of blood on Revan's hands.

 

More than those who he killed either directly or through his actions during the Mandalorian Wars? What about the Exile? Can she be blamed for the deaths she caused, either fighting the Mandalorians or...wasn't she responsible for Sion and Nihilous? For that matter, should the Jedi have to face up to the deaths they are responsible for through their inaction?

 

as Jediphile said, Nihilus was an accident, and Sion wasn't the exile's fault. as for the war, it depends on the jedi's and the exile's intentions. some of the jedi stalled from going into the war with the best intentions, while others not so much. as for the exile, you get to choose what intenions he/she had when he/she joined the war so debating this will get us nowhere since everyone has a different char.

[Jediphile]

Another thing about the exile in this case: The exile did go back and face judgment. That's when he was exiled by the jedi council. So discussion of what punishment the exile might deserve is moot, since he has already received and accepted his verdict.

[Nancy Allen``]

Well accepted is debateable. Lightsaber wounds sting, exile hurts worse. Though this can be decided throughout the game, whether the Exile does accept the decision, take the Jedi to task over it or even seek revenge for it.

[Jediphile]

Well, the exile wasn't sore enough about it to try something when the masters handed down the sentence. But I do see your point. I guess we can let it be the player's decision whether the exile has accepted it or has been growing steadily more bitter over it for a decade.

 

Either way, from the point of view of the Jedi and the Republic, the exile has been judged and the matter is settled.

[Allronix]

Yeah, Enigma. Mt take on the whole thing is that the Republic would be clamoring for blood, and that Revan would almost have to be executed for the sake of alleged "peace." However, it wouldn't be justice, it would be a tarted-up lynching, disguised with the prettiest speeches and legalese...because Revan died on the bridge of that ship. What emerged is no more Revan than (crossing universes again) than Jadzia Dax was Curzon or Ezri Dax was Jadzia.

[Jediphile]

Yeah, Enigma. Mt take on the whole thing is that the Republic would be clamoring for blood, and that Revan would almost have to be executed for the sake of alleged "peace." However, it wouldn't be justice, it would be a tarted-up lynching, disguised with the prettiest speeches and legalese...because Revan died on the bridge of that ship. What emerged is no more Revan than (crossing universes again) than Jadzia Dax was Curzon or Ezri Dax was Jadzia.

 

The dilemma with that argument is that in the episode "Dax" even Jadzia agreed that she was responsible for the actions Curzon had committed, when he was accused of murder. He was guilty of what he was accused of, but Jadzia was still willing to suffer the death penalty to live up to an oath Dax had sworn while he/she/it was still Curzon.

[Allronix]

And a LS Revan may well walk right up to the gallows - depending on your Revan - because the new entity feels that the memories alone denotate fault. However, the crew of the station was quick to remind Jadzia she was not beholden to Curzon's obligations. Likewise, the Ebon Hawk crew would be adamant to <FullName> that s/he isn't Revan, even with the memories.

[SilentScope001]

And a LS Revan may well walk right up to the gallows - depending on your Revan - because the new entity feels that the memories alone denotate fault. However, the crew of the station was quick to remind Jadzia she was not beholden to Curzon's obligations. Likewise, the Ebon Hawk crew would be adamant to <FullName> that s/he isn't Revan, even with the memories.

 

But what about Jediphile's Civil War idea? Obisidan Developers said that they might go down this route...

 

If it is true, then a LS Revan would basically go and start a civil war within True Sith space. He falls to the Dark Side in the meanwhile, and then takes over the Sith Empire, with the main goal of attacking and blowing up the Republic.

 

Don't say he did it out of his own free will. This new Revan had Old Revan's memories, and it is Old Revan's memories that drove the New Revan into the True Sith space. Without the Old Revan's memories, New Revan would have lived a good life with Bastila as a mistress. But with Old Revan's memories, New Revan was pushed down a path he did not want to go. New Revan, regardless of alignment, MUST fall to the Dark Side to stop the True Sith, but it is because New Revan knew of the True Sith due to the Old Revan's memories. Had those memories been erased, New Revan would not know of the True Sith, and would never have committed this crime of falling to the Dark Side.

 

The point being: LS Revan did betray the Republic...AGAIN. Why? Because of those memories. Before you start calling the whole Republic committing a lynch mob, realize that the Republic may be right, had they killed off Revan, they could have stopped him from starting the civil war with the True Sith and thereby stopped Revan from taking over the True Sith Empire and launching another strike into Republic space.

[Jediphile]

^^

 

Well, for my civil war idea, it depends a lot on Revan's state of mind, which is again up to the player.

 

DS Revan is easy - the true Sith are threatening his empire, he dare not use the StarForge due to its harmful side-effects (this is established in both games), and the conflict with Malak has shattered his own forces. So what can he do? He can go to the true Sith and try to divide and conquer. That's what he does then...

 

For LS Revan it's different. As Revan regains more of his memories, he begins to remember the true Sith but also all the bad things he did while he was a dark lord, and those weigh heavily on him indeed. The true Sith are still out there, however, and there is no way the Republic can fight them, so what can he do? He can sacrifice himself to the cause of destroying them from within and thereby atone for his own misdeeds.

 

This means falling to the dark side for LS Revan, but there is a difference to DS Revan in that LS Revan does not expect to succeed - he expects that the true Sith will destroy him before he can grow powerful enough to threaten their power. That's why he leaves all his friends behind. That, and that he trusts they are powerful enough to destroy him should he become the dark lord and threaten the Republic again.

 

The difference is, DS Revan is confident that he can destroy the true Sith from within and become their master and dark lord.

 

LS Revan, however, does not expect to make it. In a way, he accepts capital punishment in order to atone for his sins, since it just might give the Republic the edge it needs to survive, and he feels guilty for creating the entire mess in the first place. And if he can save the Republic by sacrificing himself, then he will gladly do so, mirroring what Kreia said was true of him being "someone willing to wage war to save others" and how "the difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference".

[Allronix]

Y'see, and my take? The whole thing was a set up. Revan's powerful, but not invulnerable. She goes out there the first time and plays right into their hands, becoming a Sith, destroying her people in a misguided attempt to "save" them.

 

The second time? Well, without any backup, without telling anyone where she was going? That's a perfect setup to walk into an ambush. DS or LS, Revan is either a prisoner or a corpse - the former more likely if DS, the latter more likely for LS.

[Gargoyle King]

Y'see, and my take? The whole thing was a set up. Revan's powerful, but not invulnerable.

 

Like any sith - they rise to power but eventually fall beneath it....

[Jediphile]

Just saw "The number 23" with Jim Carrey. Without giving the plot away, has anyone considered the relevance between this film and Revan?

[EnIgmA_XX]

? haven't seen it. could you really vaguely describe similarities without giving anything away? or is that impossible to do?

[Jediphile]

? haven't seen it. could you really vaguely describe similarities without giving anything away? or is that impossible to do?

 

Virtually impossible. But then that's what spoiler tags are for... Be warned, though, that this is a COMPLETE SPOILER! Read at your peril!!

 

 

The movie is about a husband and father (Carrey) who becomes obsessed with the number 23 after his wife gives him a book named so. He finds disturbing similarities between himself and the protagonist of the book.

 

As he continues to read the book, the protagonist becomes more and more disturbed by his experiences as a detective, and Carrey - himself a dogcatcher - finds that whatever he reads in the book is mirrored his own past and present life.

 

The detective eventually becomes so obsessed with the number that he is suspended from work, which disappoints his very sexy girlfriend (who seems to like him mostly for being a detective). The detective that sees a psychiatrist to deal with the matter, but later finds that this psychiatrist has begun seeing his girlfriend after he learned about her through the detective. The detective then kills his girlfriend and frames the psychiatrist for it, and the book apparently ends with the detective considering suicide for his misdeed.

 

As Carrey has been reading all this, he has begun having nightmares about killing his own wife in similar manner and becomes himself obsessed with the number 23.

 

He eventually concludes, however, that the book is actually the disguised confession of a murderer and goes about finding this murderer.

 

Eventually he finds out that he is himself the murderer he is looking for and also the author of the book, and that it disturbs him because it reminds him of things he blocked out of his mind. He did indeed kill his former girlfriend and frame her lover, a teacher, for it, just as the detective in the book did. He did consider suicide and very nearly killed himself by jumping from a building. But he survived and spent years in hospital recovering, having blocked the entire matter out of his mind. He only met his current wife after leaving the hospital, and she never knew of the matter.

 

In the end he accepts responsibility for his action, so that the innocent teacher can be set free. The movie ends on the note that though he has committed murder, he might be let off lightly because he turned himself in and confessed.

 

His wife also argues, as Mission does to Revan, that he is no longer the person who committed the murder. The have, after all, been married for more than 13 years without relapses. He also very nearly commits suicide toward the end of the movie, but doesn't because "that would be the easy way out".

 

 

There, COMPLETE spoiler. So... Relevant?

[EnIgmA_XX]

yup, relevant. i just totally ruined the movie for myself XD. anyways, yeah, so the the guy is let off lightly for the murder of a person. does it say how much of a senence he got? this is actually quite similar to Revan. the problem we have now, though, is the daunting fact that Revan is a mass murderer. even if he/she got let off easy for about let's say 5 billion deaths, that would still add up to, what? 114 life sentences and 4,383,527 years in prison?

[SilentScope001]

 

Surrendering to the police and pleading guilty always get you lower sentences. It's part of the law. At least the guy's GETTING punished rather than Darth Revan, who gets a medal. The person could easily make a plea of "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" and get out of the crisis, though.

 

The number 23, though? Any speicific reason why it was chosen to represent the title of the movie? I remember it is a pretty famous Discordian number, as it sastifies the Rule of 5, "2+3=5". But the Discordian society is traditonally supposed to be comedic in causing chaos and discord, so why would they be linked to the murder?