stoffe Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Should Revan be put on trial and/or executed by the Republic Senate for the crimes committed during her tenure as a Sith Lord? No, the Republic has a lot more important things to worry about after the end of two devastating wars. Provided they even had a real chance to capture Revan if they wanted to, which I doubt. And besides, the Senate and leadership of the Republic aren't exactly at their most popular after having proven mostly helpless to defend their citizens during both conflicts. They've proven weak, indecisive and impotent, for all their privileges and political power. If they should try to peg all the blame for what has happened on the one person who's actually repeatedly made a real effort to make a difference, and has been quite successful in all instances, there would probably be a military coup in the Republic. Revan is good at rallying sympathy to a cause and loyalty by word and action. She probably has plenty of support from the foot soldiers in all camps for actually being out there, getting her hands dirty and turning a hopeless situation and certain death for them into victory. There wouldn't be enough political points scored making Revan a scapegoat for their own failures for it to be worth the risk. If heads should roll there are probably more than enough senators who should worry about how safely their own heads rest upon their shoulders. Playing the blame game might put them in the spotlight as well. One man's senseless slaughter is another's glorious victory, and history is written by the victors. And Revan has been on the winning side in pretty much all the wars so far, even being the decisive element that determines who ends up being the winning side. It's not like "the good guys" don't have plenty of blood on their hands in any war they partake in. It's not like the Republic is above committing genocide when it suits their agenda. (I believe it's mentioned in TSL that the Ubese hates the Jedi so much because the Republic bombed their homeworld into rubble.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 And just on that point should the Republic have basically executed their greatest defender? You can go on about what if he falls to the dark side. Well, what if the Mandalorians and Sith were to rise again? What would the Jedi and the Republic do then? I suppose there is the option of those who served with Revan but as far as we know half of them could be dead. What about the Exile? There was foreshadowing that things could be explained to her and she could be healed, and most of the Council accepted her when she found them. Who's to say that as well as Revan plans were made for the Exile as well, but given that she had disappeared for a decade I guess no one could find her. So basically the option is to let Revan live and have him fight for the Republic, or kill him which would basically mean the Republic is screwed, much the same as it is in Sith Lords, worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Of course they should be greatful. That doesn't mean they should give him a blank check. If, as indications point out, Revan does this same thing again, maybe Revan should be killed, as a precautionary measure. [takes deep, shocked breath...] Are you kidding me?!? You cannot kill someone as a preventive measure. Heck, we don't even do that in the real world, unless we're talking politically motived assassinations. And if you support that, then I don't see much moral high ground on which to condemn Revan. I'm advocating for mindrape. It's the most humane form of punishment, I think I'll just let that speak for itself... 1. Revan may commit the same crimes again. Jediphile's storyline indicates that. He may fall to the DS again, meaning...his redemeption was stupid. It does not count. Revan MAY BE A THREAT to the Republic again. Of course he could. Any jedi can fall to the dark side and become a threat - ANY jedi! But you cannot condemn something for what they MIGHT do in the future. In that case all force sensitives should be put to death, since they all have the potential to fall to the dark side and become evil. And all men should be prevented from any possibility of committing rape, etc... I suppose I should thank you for the vote of support for my own story idea, though. I don't recall you speaking highly of it before, so thanks. 2. Where's the deterrence? If a person commits a crime, he can easily bump his head against the wall and lose his memory and therefore be able to live life as normal. Sith Lords would be laughing. And not only that, but they can FAKE losing their memory. So much for justice...criminals can easily get off by abusing this loophole. LS Revan is not trying to exploit any loopholes IMHO. He already learned the hard way. If he is an ethical person, which I would take as a given for LS Revan, then he has to live with the knowledge of all the lives he has destroyed. That's his punishment. Simply killing him is mild compared to that, I think, since he can never fully redeem himself from that. It will always be there, no matter how many times he saves the galaxy. And I know of Captain Ahab. This is different...yet oddly similar. Revan did not harm me personally. He did not kill my family members, did not blow my planet up. Relax. You're not Ahab, Kreia is But Revan is a total idiot in TSL. Obisidan's True Sith plotline is great...but they ruined Revan in the process, by making him look like a crazy and stupid loon. The whole plotline was fanboyish. So, any love for Revan I have did disapper. I don't see how it's stupid, but Revan might have made another mistake in thinking he could see out this evil and fight it alone. Unless Revan is very certain of his own abilities (and correctly so), it seems he just took the danger as an opportunity to fall on his lightsaber in some attempt to atone for his past misdeeds. But then again, maybe not... I guess we'll just have to wait and see if and when K3 comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 In that case I'll rephrase Picard's point: "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong, huh? 1000? 50000? A million? How many people does it take?!" You can't scale it on the number of people once you go beyond two or three. Basically you're saying that it's "more ethical" to kill a thousand people instead of ten thousand. But that's not right IMHO, because murder is wrong. Period! Alright. Then let us genocide every little Jedi, Sith, and Republic Senator while we are at it. By that definition, all murder is wrong. So, we must kill off EVERYONE? Why not? It makes perfect sense really. Alright, so maybe we can't exactly kill people, but how about life imprisonment? The penal colonies might be a bit full, what with every single important person except for a cuple of farmers stuck there. Thing is, you say all murder is wrong. Then if so, you cannot redeem yourself from that murder that you have done. You have to get punished. What you are arguing for is the death of MOST HUMAN BEINGS in Star Wars. Even the Jedi who were defending themselves, they were killing. Killing is wrong, and it does not depend on wheter the person who was killed is Sith or innocent, it all depends on the morality of the act, not the morality of the person. Since killing is wrong...well? I am an Act Utilitranist by the way. I believe basically in doing whatever it takes to promote the most happiness. It actually makes much more sense than condemning every person. No, the Republic has a lot more important things to worry about after the end of two devastating wars. Provided they even had a real chance to capture Revan if they wanted to, which I doubt. This is the reason why the Republic would not do such a thing. But should the Republic do it? [takes deep, shocked breath...] Are you kidding me?!? You cannot kill someone as a preventive measure. Heck, we don't even do that in the real world, unless we're talking politically motived assassinations. And if you support that, then I don't see much moral high ground on which to condemn Revan. Ahem? Revan is gaining back his personality, and really, a personality that led Revan to do this sort of thing again is one that I don't think people want on the street. Of course he could. Any jedi can fall to the dark side and become a threat - ANY jedi! But you cannot condemn something for what they MIGHT do in the future. In that case all force sensitives should be put to death, since they all have the potential to fall to the dark side and become evil. And all men should be prevented from any possibility of committing rape, etc... Again. This is different. Revan is gaining back his PERSONALITY. The personality that led him to kill off his own men at Malachor V. The personality that got him to find the Star Forge. That personality was, in no way, ever redeemed. Revan is gaining that personality back, and if that personality lead him to do DS acts, then we should stop him before that occurs. This is a semi-special case. Revan has 2 personalities: Post-wipe and pre-Wipe. To me, Revan is gaining the pre-wipe personality, as he is remembering what is happening, and he is gaining back the old memories. If this Post-Wipe personality gets destroyed, and the Pre-Wipe personality reassert itself...well? Alright. Let us assume we have Revan, Pre-Wipe, standing before us. Should we kill him? I suppose I should thank you for the vote of support for my own story idea, though. I don't recall you speaking highly of it before, so thanks. The idea of Revan falling to the DS and joining up with the True Sith is fine. It's likely to happen, and that I'm okay with. Other parts of the story I do dislike however. LS Revan is not trying to exploit any loopholes IMHO. He already learned the hard way. If he is an ethical person, which I would take as a given for LS Revan, then he has to live with the knowledge of all the lives he has destroyed. That's his punishment. Simply killing him is mild compared to that, I think, since he can never fully redeem himself from that. It will always be there, no matter how many times he saves the galaxy. LS Revan is opening up a loophole however. And if other Sith Lords see this loophole, heh, even other non-Force Users see this...you can expect lots of criminals to go free. Republic: You are a murderer, Thomas! You have killed a Republic Senator...and now, you shall pay with- Thomas bumps his head and falls down. Republic: Thomas? Thomas: (faking memory loss) Ow. It seems I lost all my memory. Republic: You have? Thomas: Yes. I do not remember anything... Republic: Huh. Are you a good boy? Are you loyal to the Republic? Thomas: Yes sire. I love being a good boy and being loyal to the Republic. If only I can remember what being a good boy and being loyal to the Republic means... Republic: Alright. You are free. So long kiddo! Thomas (thinking): Yes! If thousands upon thousands of bad guys decide to fake memory loss and then claim that they are like Revan...you make the Republic even more ineffective. I don't see how it's stupid, but Revan might have made another mistake in thinking he could see out this evil and fight it alone. Prehaps one mistake might be fine...but it still seemed a bit idiotic. Revan blowing up the Republic, and attempting to establish a Sith Empire that would, in fact, kinda defeats the whole purpose of defending the Republic Space in the first place...does sound a bit werid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Besides which seeking vengence and revenge leads to the dark side. Would you become what you prosecute to satisfy your lust for vengence? I am not lusting for vengence. Enigma might, but not me. Alright everyone, i think that i should just go ahead and lay out the reason why i think Revan deserves to die, just to clear things up. i'll lay off replying to anything else right now, relax, i'll reply later. the reason i want him/her to die is kind of an awkward mix between revenge, justice, and sense of duty. here, let me explain in an analogy. keep in mind that everything here is hypothetical. okay, so let's say that there is such a thing as heaven, hell, and God. also, we can just say that i'm a really bad person. i'm not going to bother thinking up reasons why i'm a bad person, but it's mostly irelevant so let's just say that i'm more than bad enough to go to hell, but because my horrid memory, i forgot all of these random bad things. so i die, and i go to hell, and i go "God, why am i in hell!?" God, wanting to properly explain to me the reason, comes down from heaven and says "well, there are quite a few reasons, but i'll just go and tell you the really major ones." so God takes out a piece of paper and unrolls it so it stretches about several blocks long. he reads everything out to me and i go "oh, yes i do remember killing those people," or something random like that. basically i remember again. now what is going through my head at that moment? well, probably the most prominent thing is that, no i really don't want to go to hell. i don't want to go, and i'm afraid to go and stay here. this, is fear of punishment. the next thing that enters my head is thinking about the families of all those people i've killed (okay, so i've established that i'm a murderer now, k?). now that i'm in hell, and i can actually remember what happened, i can reflect upon how i myself would feel if someone killed someone close to me. if someone killed someone i really care about, yes, i'll admit that i would want revenge, BADLY. wouldn't any sane person feel the same way? i am thinking about revenge. the third thing that enters my mind is justice. now that i know that i myself would be pissed if someone murdered somebody i love, i can think about exactly how fair my sentence is. if i myself am a murderer that has killed and made people suffer for whatever reason, isn't it just fair, isn't it just, that i too suffer? at this point of my thinking process, i am starting to accept my sentence. i have explored justice. the final thing that enters my mind is duty. why duty? it's duty to justice. at this final stage of my thinking process, i have already explored the initial fear of punishment, to revenge, to justice, and then now duty. i have established that i belive that it is only fair that i suffer. this is part of my personal moral beliefs. let me explain these beliefs to you. i know, KNOW that in my life that i will do a LOT of bad things. do i think that bad things are okay? no, although i also believe that there's no getting around doing a lot of wrong things in my life. if someone does something bad, i, like a lot of other people, believe that there should be some kind of action done, whatever that action is, to "make things even again". this is justice. all people in the world, IMO, are obligated to be just. it is something we must do for the benefit of people and the world. are people getting punished supposed to like punishment? no, of course not. but i do believe that, it is our duty, our obligation to justice to accept punishment. i myself, loath punishment, but i know that it is my personal duty, and the duty of all people to try to make the world a just place. we might not be able to stop ourselves from doing bad things, but we should accept punishment. not happily of course, but knowing that it IS the right thing to do. knowing this to be my personal, moral center, i myself may be able to accept hell as punishment for my crimes. no i will not like it. but hopefully i will endure it knowing that it was the right thing to do, and that i have fulfilled the duty and obligation set upon me when i commited murder. this, is why i think Revan deserves to die. i will freely set this open to debate, but i want people to keep in mind that these are my moral beliefs, and i hope that people will be able to understand and accept them. btw, SS001, the mindrape is a pretty good idea EDIT: crud, i knew i forgot something. i need to add some more to this. 2 things: 1. i believe that revenge and justice are the same thing, just different sides of the same coin. the only exeption is when revenge goes overboard (e.g. Carth kills Saul not because he killed his wife, but because Saul borrowed one of his blasters and never gave it back) 2. yes, i do believe in partial/full redemption but not as far as to relieve a mass murderer. i'd go for full redemption for any small-medium sized things, and partial redemption for anything. nevertheless, you should accept your punishment (unless it's unfair, of course e.g. Mission gets sentenced to death for stealing a guy's datapad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Alright. Then let us genocide every little Jedi, Sith, and Republic Senator while we are at it. By that definition, all murder is wrong. So, we must kill off EVERYONE? Why not? It makes perfect sense really. Alright, so maybe we can't exactly kill people, but how about life imprisonment? The penal colonies might be a bit full, what with every single important person except for a cuple of farmers stuck there. Thing is, you say all murder is wrong. Then if so, you cannot redeem yourself from that murder that you have done. You have to get punished. What you are arguing for is the death of MOST HUMAN BEINGS in Star Wars. Even the Jedi who were defending themselves, they were killing. Killing is wrong, and it does not depend on wheter the person who was killed is Sith or innocent, it all depends on the morality of the act, not the morality of the person. Since killing is wrong...well? I said murder, not merely killing. You started out with that, but somewhere in there, it turned to killing instead, and you seem to end up suggesting that they are the same since you don't distinguish. Fine, but I disagree with that. There can be legitimate reasons for killing other people, most notably in war obviously. Murder, however, is the willful and deliberate taking of life for selfish or nefarious reasons. There's a difference there that's more than merely subtle to me. This is the reason why the Republic would not do such a thing. But should the Republic do it? Since I don't believe in capital punishment, I'd tend to say no. Ahem? Revan is gaining back his personality, and really, a personality that led Revan to do this sort of thing again is one that I don't think people want on the street. Ah, but why did Revan fall. It was not merely his choice to defy the masters or even fight the Mandalorians that caused it. Note the KotOR2 Chronicles I've quoted several times in this thread already. It says quite clearly that he was overcome by the dark side energies of Malachor V when he went there. If that is the cause of his fall, then simply staying away from there would seem to eliminate any risk of that happening again. But even if he did go back, I doubt Darth Revan would simply return. Jason Bourne was a horrible killer, but he does regain all his memories. Does that mean he is condemned to become that killer again? No, it doesn't. In fact, he finds out that he lost his memory in the first place because he couldn't bear to be that person any more. That's not entirely true for Revan, of course, but I'm not so much of a fatalist that I believe that Revan regaining his memories means he is destined to walk down the dark path again. Indeed, I would say the opposite - he has now regained the KNOWLEDGE, not the convictions, of his past and can see exactly where he went wrong. This would bolster him against falling again rather than make him more susceptible and vulnerable to it, I think. Revan is gaining back his PERSONALITY. The personality that led him to kill off his own men at Malachor V. The personality that got him to find the Star Forge. That personality was, in no way, ever redeemed. Revan is gaining that personality back, and if that personality lead him to do DS acts, then we should stop him before that occurs. We don't know that. We only know that he regained his knowledge, that he remembers things from his past. The neo-Revan can choose to walk that path or choose, as Jason Bourne did, that he doesn't want to be that person anymore. I'll agree with Mission Vao there. This is a semi-special case. Revan has 2 personalities: Post-wipe and pre-Wipe. To me, Revan is gaining the pre-wipe personality, as he is remembering what is happening, and he is gaining back the old memories. If this Post-Wipe personality gets destroyed, and the Pre-Wipe personality reassert itself...well? Alright. Let us assume we have Revan, Pre-Wipe, standing before us. Should we kill him?[/Quote] Since I don't believe in capital punishment, I'd still say no. But he should still be confined to the darkest pits of some remote ice world with no possiblity of ever escaping in a thousand years. LS Revan is opening up a loophole however. And if other Sith Lords see this loophole, heh, even other non-Force Users see this...you can expect lots of criminals to go free. Meh. I doubt that'll happen. It's too academic a situation, if you ask me. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 So, you're willing to **** up the Republic and let them die if the Sith, Mandalorians or some other threat was to rise, remember the Exile hadn't been found, just to satisfy your lust for revenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 So, you're willing to **** up the Republic and let them die if the Sith, Mandalorians or some other threat was to rise, remember the Exile hadn't been found, just to satisfy your lust for revenge? it's not just revenge. it's lust for revenge, justice, and Revan to fulfill his/her punishment for being a killer. did you read what i posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Different values, I guess, Jediphile. Let be glad neither of us run the Senate. So, you're willing to **** up the Republic and let them die if the Sith, Mandalorians or some other threat was to rise, remember the Exile hadn't been found, just to satisfy your lust for revenge? ... I never had any lust for revenge. I never, NEVER got killed by Revan. My family never got killed. Nobody ever got killed. Frankly, if I thought Revan was a useful pawn, I'd keep him alive. I just believe Revan is a person who is recovering his memories and becoming a bastard who's going to betray us. I don't want him to ruin the Republic. Better to have the True Sith, and the Mandalorians battering down the Republic's door than to have the True Sith, the Mandalorians, and Revan battering down the Republic's door. Getting rid of one bad guy is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Yes I did. So you're willing to **** up the Republic and let them die to satisfy your lust for revenge. You know I pity you, I really do, you know why? Not only are you blind to what might be best rathar than what you want you have essentially become Revan. You don't care how many die without Revan to defend the Republic, you just care about getting your own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 SS001's idea is a good one, too y'know. i'd have you know that i'm trying to work for what's just here. this isn't just about revenge and my way. what i can "get" is that you want the republic to survive. i, too care about the republic, which is why i think SS001's idea would work nicely. personally, though, i think that's even worse than death, but whatever. btw, you having a bad day? you seem, uh...angry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 My normal state, particularly when people advocate rape. Such an action would be a fate worse than death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Yes I did. So you're willing to **** up the Republic and let them die to satisfy your lust for revenge. You know I pity you, I really do, you know why? Not only are you blind to what might be best rathar than what you want you have essentially become Revan. You don't care how many die without Revan to defend the Republic, you just care about getting your own way. While I disagree with SilentScope001 on this, I do support him on two points: 1. Revan's potential benefit to the Republic cannot be a factor in considering whether he DESERVES punishment or not. 2. The Republic has no idea that the true Sith are coming and so cannot that that into consideration. And even if they did know, we have no way of knowing that Revan is the Republic's last and only defense against them. So I don't think that can be a factor either. But I do agree with you that mind rape is not fitting. Indeed, it would just remove Revan's insights into what went wrong in the first place, and if he is still as strong in force potential as before - which I assume is the case since nobody has argued cutting off from the force - then I would think that would make the risk of Revan going DS again greater, not smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Yes I did. So you're willing to **** up the Republic and let them die to satisfy your lust for revenge. You know I pity you, I really do, you know why? Not only are you blind to what might be best rathar than what you want you have essentially become Revan. You don't care how many die without Revan to defend the Republic, you just care about getting your own way. 1) Rape is the term that I use to refer to something that is very, very painful, and "mindrape" is a better punishment than killing off Revan. I see that Revan does not deserve death as he is loyal to the Republic and he is useful. But he does deserve punishment however... 2) Sparing a smart, intelligent military general who could backstab me again...is not the best thing, you realize that. If Jediphile is right, Revan will backstab the Republic, possibly in some twisted way of "execution" to save the Republic...but ending up harming the Republic in some way. Why? It was NOT the personality of Revan that was redeemed, but rather the Personality that the Jedi Council placed of Revan. That Personality is slowly disappering, and the personality of Revan, pre-wipe, is coming back. And when it comes back, what will happen then? Not everyone has to share your viewpoints, you know. 3) Why in the world do you say that I am motivated by revenge? Revan never harmed me at all. ED would try to explain that Revan doesn't even exist, so I could easily tortue him to death and nobody would care. All I am motivated about is protecting the Republic, and for some reason, I don't trust Revan. But I do agree with you that mind rape is not fitting. Indeed, it would just remove Revan's insights into what went wrong in the first place, and if he is still as strong in force potential as before - which I assume is the case since nobody has argued cutting off from the force - then I would think that would make the risk of Revan going DS again greater, not smaller. Alright, so you have a point. Maybe a more conventional method might be better off...imprisonment? If the True Sith or some other armed forces do threaten the Republic, we can let Revan go off and kill them, but until then, keep him under guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 My normal state, particularly when people advocate rape. Such an action would be a fate worse than death. ya, but you were kinda like that even before i started supporting SS001's idea. i'm merely talking about my moral values and viewpoints. i think a ls Revan would understand and recognize all of the deaths caused by him/herself, and would accept punishment, or at least try to make up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 So by fighting against Malek and the Sith, becoming obsessed with the threat posed to the galaxy, he wasn't trying to make up for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Revan was, but he/she still killed loads of people, see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 So we're back to you wanting the Republic to burn so that Revan is punished rather than leave him be so that he will fight against the threat, which he might choose not to if any action is taken against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 didn't Jediphile say something earlier about how nobody knows about the true sith yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 The Sith could rise again, as they had, the Mandalorians could have risen again, as Canderous attempts to do, or some new threat could rise. There's something else, even if Revan did allow judgement to be passed on him you think anyone by Revan's side would allow it? Besides which Admiral Daala knows of Revan, word would probably get back to the Republic. The Jedi obviously know about Revan and neither party has done anything to settle old scores. What you need to ask yourself is if you're smarter than they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 What you need to ask yourself is if you're smarter than they are. WHAT is that supposed to mean!? Nancy Allen, we are debating here whether Revan SHOULD be executed or not! you keep on coming back to this one reason of Revan saving the republic when we've established that it isn't an arguable point! do you have ANY other reasons for keeping Revan alive!? i cannot understand why you are so insanely angry at me!!! would you just try to cool it pls!? i'm trying to have a good, calm, civil debate here! if i'm wrong and you're not angry, then i am sincerely sorry because i suck at reading people's emotions, including when they're typing but you sound very, very, angry. i don't think i've ever seen you like this, and not on multiple postings. finally, trying pathetically to sloppily finish my homework before Heroes while responing isn't helping my day, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Are you smarter than the Republic and the Jedi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentScope001 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Not to mention Revan isn't that powerful a Jedi that his loss would mean the destruction of the whole world. Vrook, Atris, even Master Kavar (the great Jedi general), could easily counter any "threat" that could happen in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 They did real well against Kreia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnIgmA_XX Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 look, Nancy Allen, can we do the Carth thing and "just drop it please?" i'm sick and tired of this bickering and i want to get back into the debate because i love this thread. to get back on track: In that case I'll rephrase Picard's point: "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong, huh? 1000? 50000? A million? How many people does it take?!" You can't scale it on the number of people once you go beyond two or three. Basically you're saying that it's "more ethical" to kill a thousand people instead of ten thousand. But that's not right IMHO, because murder is wrong. Period! Besides, do we know how many people Revan killed? I mean, really killed - as in personally? People like Karath and Malak were nasty enough in their own right, so it reasonable to blame Revan for the people they killed as well? So what if Bastila killed "only" a few hundred people? That's still a mind-bogglingly high number, and unlike Revan she did not try to make up for it by fighting evil afterwards. when you say "more ethical" you make it sound like it's ethical in the first place, which it isn't. killing 1000 people isn't more ethical than 10,000, it's less wrong. if somebody kills one person, and someone else kills twelve, do they deserve the same sentence? Revan didn't need to kill people personally. he/she just points at a base/structure/person and the sith proceed to kill. it's still Revan's fault, as it is Revan's fault for turning Malak to the darkside. "only" is a relative term in this case, and no she should also be convicted i suppose, but we aren't talking about her, right? now to pick up on our previous points. we were talking about: 1.whether Revan actually attempted to warn anyone about the true sith 2.i was making a point that while Revan was ds, he/she was still somewhat in control and is at fault for continuing down the ds 3.whether the senate is corrupt or not (i have no idea how this is related to anything anymore) 4.whether jedi are evil or not or some jedi at least 5.that it was also Malak's fault, to which i responded that Malak is already dead alright!! time to get this debate restarted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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