Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[SilentScope001]

Fact: The Republic is a very large state, consisting of thousands of planets, along with immense numbers of people, shipyards, resources, hyperspace routes, etc.

 

Okay.

 

Fact: Any invaders (the true Sith) that take over this state will gain a large advantage in the war. With it the true Sith would be able to bolster their fleet significantly, get more supplies for their troops, and most importantly, have access to all the hyperspace routes.

 

...Fact: The Republic is a very large state.

 

Conclusion: To think that the True Sith can invade all of it is foolhardy. The True Sith has been concertated in its own Unknown Regions empire for quite some time, and it will take some time for the True Sith to actually occupy such a large state.

 

Fact: The Republic as it is is incapable of defending itself against the true Sith. Revan's empire is.

 

Fact questioned.

 

1) The Republic defended itself against the Mandalorians. The Republic, in the end, defeated Revan's Empire. There may be corrupt idiots, but I doubt that female commander, Carth, Cede, and the Telos army's leaders were corrupt, and it would be these great military geniuses, not the Senators, that the Republic would rely on. (We don't even know who the True Sith are, and to claim that the True Sith would destroy the Republic seems silly.)

 

2) The Republic has the Jedi. The Republic may not defend itself against the True Sith, but the Jedi can.

 

3) Revan's Empire is Sith. If Revan takes over the galaxy, then the Dark Side has already won. I wouldn't care about the resulting war between the True Sith and Revan's Sith, because it really doesn't matter. Whomever won, they are Sith, and that therefore, the galaxy is enslaved.

 

Frankly, if some hero says: "In order to protect you from the True Sith, I'll have to enslave you", I'd rather refuse his help and get murdered by the True Sith. I would rather die than to be enslaved. And the rest of the Republic would do so.

 

You saved the Galaxy (not the Republic), but destroyed any reason for living in the Galaxy.

 

4) ...Have you ever heard of "Sith Civil War"? A Force User want to gain power, and the whole Revan Sith Empire will collaspe. If the True Sith start a civil war within Revan's Empire, and follow that up with an invasion, then Revan's Empire could fall just as fast as you claim the Republic would. In fact, it probraly would have fallen faster: At least in the Republic, the commanders are loyal to the Senate. In Revan's Empire, they are loyal to whomever is the strongest (Revan's supporters defected to Malak as soon as Revan kicked the dust)...and in the end, just themselves.

 

Therefore, is it not entirely logical that Revan's troops should defend the Republic, both to stop the true Sith from using its resources, and to gain (essential) resources they are incapable of producing otherwise?

 

1) It would be more logical to wage war against the True Sith directly and launch the war against them, instead of fighting against the side that actually helped you out.

 

2) The Republic does not want to be 'protected' by Revan. Not just the Senators, but common, ordinary people who hate the corruption of Revan, but dislike the corruption of the Sith more.

 

3) Killing your own troops at Malachor V and blowing up Telos is not "defending the Republic". In fact, it is quite simple to basically whip the Republic into a frenzy and get them all to kill off the Jedi Order that did nothing while worlds burned, pulling off a "Code 66". Revan could have done a military coup, and still kept his popularity and Dark Side taint.

 

4) The Light Side/Dark Side war is far more important than a stupid struggle between True Sith and Revan's Sith. They are both evil, after all.

===

Who cares anyway? If the Force wills that Revan is to be punished, then Revan shall be punished, sending him to Chaos. That's better than any sort of execution, and unlike the Heaven and Hell that exist in our universe, Chaos (Hell) and the Netherlands of the Force actually exist in Star Wars.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Yes, but is exactly how power corrupts - by twisting your goals into something perverted. And then you begin to rationalize... Remember what the road to Hell is paved with?

 

wait, what is the point you're trying to make here?

 

Revan didn't kill all of those people so you can't blame him for all of it. And if you're going to argue that it's his fault for leading them, then I'm going to argue that the jedi order forced onto a path that let to him falling to the dark side when the flat-out refused to fight in the Mandalorian Wars and even forbade jedi to help, but just decided to sit and watch while the outer rim burned. Revan and Malak could not bear that. They had to act. And that cost them their souls, since it let to their eventual fall to the dark side. That would not have happened if only the masters had let jedi order do what it's supposed to be doing and protect the republic.

 

and if the jedi said "yeah, all right go ahead and fight the Mandos, Revan" during the Mandalorian wars, guess what? Revan still would've fallen because he/she would still have gone to Mal looking for a good stronghold, still would've turned ds, and still would've attacked because of being ds. actually, the masters telling the jedi to not go during the Mando wars was a good move in terms of Revan falling to the dark side or not (not for anything else though of course). so no, it was not the jedi's fault. it's the equivalent of a mother saying to a toddler "don't run in the street!" but the toddler runs in the street and gets run over. is it the mother's fault, supervision aside? would it have been better if the mother said "go ahead and have fun on the street!"? so it is still Revan's fault for leading those troops to kill people.

 

I won't bother trying to change your mind, because I know I can't. Only you can do that. I can try to point out why I feel differently, but it's your choice and not mine whether you choose to listen to it.

 

oh, i'm listening all right. this is a fun debate!

 

If there is no injured party because the people of the galaxy forgive Revan, then what's the point of a trial?

 

um, what about those millions/billions of people that are dead right now because of the JCW? hmm?

 

also, the title of the thread is: "Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?" take note that is says should, not if.

 

We don't actually know if there was ever any formal declaration of war. Besides, if Revan was such a great hero, then why wouldn't he try to influence the Republic rather than just attack them? Given that the Republic practically worshipped Revan and Malak for saving them and despised the jedi order for doing nothing, it makes no sense that Revan would just simply attack out of the blue. If one thing is consistent about Revan, then it's that he is a good tactician. I should think he'd try to "pull a Palpatine" before restorting to brute strength, especially when we know that his long-term goal was to prevent the fall of the Republic to the true Sith.

 

you've answered this question yourself. Revan was ds, and his/her goals were twisted so he/she attacked the republic instead of trying to defend it. you've said this some time before on another post. Revan was an amazing tactician, but the ds twisted his/her mind. of course, it's still his/her fault for continuing down the ds path...

 

We also don't know that Revan did not try to warn the Republic, so your point would be equally moot.

 

i'd say the same, so we can't argue this any longer.

 

Anyway, I was not talking about when Revan returned from the unknown regions. I was talking about how Revan was forced onto the path that led him to the dark side when the masters refused to protect the republic during the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council. And I was not the only one. That is why many scattered... and why many in the Republic do not trust us. And why we do not trust ourselves."

 

You can't blame Revan alone, since there is plenty of blame to go around. Even Zez-Kai Ell acknowledges this, and he was one of those masters himself!

 

but how were the jedi wrong? Zez-Kai Ell doesn't talk about how they were flawed. remember the mom and toddler analogy?

 

So the jedi do only good? Funny... Because somehow it seems to that reprogramming Revan against his will, abusing him to covertly find the Starforge, and deliberately keeping the truth hidden from even AFTER he has helped Bastila escape the destruction of Taris somehow does not reflect too well on the "good" nature of the jedi masters...

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I have nothing more to say. It provides no comfort at all, for reasons on which I still must keep secret.Suffice to say redemption was not Revan's choice, and I have never believed those of the Council who attempt to console themselves otherwise for the crime they committed."

 

actually, i would consider that a ls act. Revan's mind was damaged so they actually gave Revan a mind. if they gave the original mind, Revan would be ds right away again and kill many more people. by giving Revan a new mind, the jedi lead Revan to destroy Malak and the star forge. or would you rather that they gave Revan his/her old mind back and he/she'd capture all the jedi and...ugh, i don't even want to talk about it anymore.

 

The dark side is mostly evil and the light side is mostly good, but you cannot afford to see it in all black and white. That was where Atris erred.

 

Atris: "I am Atris, Jedi Master... the last historian of the Jedi... the last of the Jedi."

 

Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you."

 

Atris: "You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith."

 

Kreia: " "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you."

 

Atris: "How did it happen?"

 

Kreia: "Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall.Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still."

 

eh? i didn't even consider Atris as a jedi anymore. she hangs out with sith holocrons and is half insane for goodness sake! Kreia was a gray, she was a jedi and was sith, but in the end was neither.

 

So, what?, Malak is blameless for everything because Revan made him evil? Even Malak accepts himself that this is not true. I should think that Malak's betrayal was not quite part of Revan's master plan...

 

And in any event, if you can hold Malak blameless because "it was all Revan's fault", then I'm going to argue that Revan is also blameless because "it's all the masters' fault for forcing Revan's decision during the Mandalorian Wars."

 

As for who started the war, we don't know. You seem to assume it was Revan, but I don't think we actually know that.

 

i never said Malak was blameless. who told you that? of course i'd have him executed too, but i'm not sure if he's breathing very much anymore Revan is still at fault for turning Malak to the ds and being the one in command for the first part of the JCW. and who do you think started the war, Jediphile, the republic?

 

Then it's a good thing I'm not asking how you to win. If I were doing that my posts would likely be pages long and filled with very boring questions related to troop deployments and the like.

 

Of course, this point is all moot since you've conceded Revan can't win without the Star Forge, and that the Forge is a dark side-only artifact. You've admitted that Revan has to turn to the dark side to win the war, which is basically conceding to my argument.

 

omg stop beating me down because i'm not an uber 8 star general like Revan, would you?

 

i haven't conceded to your argument, ED. 2 points:

1. Revan isn't neccesarily doomed to lose if he/she doesn't use the star forge. if so, then what in the world is the point of having a KOTOR 3?

2. Revan has to turn ds to use it, yes, but you seem to have forgotten that Revan didn't use it to stop the true sith, and used to the stop the republic. from existing.

 

I disagree. The tactical situation you've posed is very easy to solve, depending on the terrain and the equipment of the troops. But that's another topic.

 

when i didn't include factors such as terrain, i was kinda assuming that the terrain was equally advantageous to both sides. same with the skill of troops, equipment, energy level, distance of reinforcements, speed and accuracy of shooting, tank loading speed, tank driving speed, bullets per minute fired by the tank's machine guns, chance of being randomly blown up by a nuke...need i go on?

 

I've already answered this, but no harm in doing so again...

 

Fact: The Republic is a very large state, consisting of thousands of planets, along with immense numbers of people, shipyards, resources, hyperspace routes, etc.

 

Fact: Any invaders (the true Sith) that take over this state will gain a large advantage in the war. With it the true Sith would be able to bolster their fleet significantly, get more supplies for their troops, and most importantly, have access to all the hyperspace routes.

 

Fact: The Republic as it is is incapable of defending itself against the true Sith. Revan's empire is.

 

Therefore, is it not entirely logical that Revan's troops should defend the Republic, both to stop the true Sith from using its resources, and to gain (essential) resources they are incapable of producing otherwise?

 

okay, so wait. you're basically saying in an analogy that there are three kids. kid #1 (republic+jedi) has a lolipop (resources), kid #2 (true sith) wants the lolipop and to beat up 1 (because they're jedi), and kid #3 (Revan) wants to defend the kid 1 and the lolipop and not let #2 get either. so you're saying that it's an excellent strategic move to have 3 beat 1 half to death and take his lolipop so he can eat it. he then has the energy to beat the snot out of 2, who was the main bad guy in the first place.

 

...but then what happens to kid #1, who is now bleeding, had his arms broken, is half dead, and will not be able to heal himself in a long time because there is no ambulance (outside help) in sight? it would take kid #1 months to recover, heck, he could even die! (to translate, when Rev destryes the republic, it may take a very, very long time to recover. it is a stagnant beast, after all. the economy will suffer, people will starve ad revolt, and the galaxy as a whole will lose all hope and enter a galaxy wide "depression". and to add on that, who says the republic will recover at all!?)

 

and this is a good strategic move, you say. i say, just as many people will die because of the aftermath of a shattered republic as if the true sith run in and conquer.

[Masgrtgr]

You know for all this talk about how this True Sith threat is this super duper powerful empire which is stronger than every other empire I've yet to see any actual evidence this is true that isn't hyperbole.

 

Really all of Revan's fanboys.... err I means defenders go on about how the True Sith would do this and that and somehow singlehandly defeat the Republic.

 

If they could do this that easily then why haven't they done so by now?

 

And the whole Republic is corrupt and stagnant argument imo doesn't really fly since I've yet to see any other potential governments at the time do better.

 

Really The Republic for all it's problems really does seem to be the best form of government.They are not opressing anybody that we know of (unlike Revan's Sith), most planets under them seem to be living happily. They also do somewhat try to protect it's citizens.

 

Sure, the Republic has it's problems, but it's also arguably the reason that anybody in the SW Galaxy can lead a relatively comfortable life that is mostly free of threats . Getting rid of it would have absolutely disastrous consequences for the average person unless the entire world is reformed.

[Jediphile]

and if the jedi said "yeah, all right go ahead and fight the Mandos, Revan" during the Mandalorian wars, guess what? Revan still would've fallen because he/she would still have gone to Mal looking for a good stronghold, still would've turned ds, and still would've attacked because of being ds.

 

No, that's a "what if" scenario. We don't know that would still have happened. And even if it had, the masters at least would have been out there to see what had happened to Revan before he could subvert the jedi by intervening, perhaps even making him turn from the DS again. But since there were no masters out there, nobody could guide Revan or help him, and he was free to use Malachor V to convert the jedi to sith.

 

actually, the masters telling the jedi to not go during the Mando wars was a good move in terms of Revan falling to the dark side or not (not for anything else though of course).

 

I disagree for the reasons given above. I find that - in that context- their decision was very, very stupid.

 

so no, it was not the jedi's fault. it's the equivalent of a mother saying to a toddler "don't run in the street!" but the toddler runs in the street and gets run over. is it the mother's fault, supervision aside? would it have been better if the mother said "go ahead and have fun on the street!"? so it is still Revan's fault for leading those troops to kill people.

 

Except that supervision you so easily dismiss is precisely what Revan himself needed to avoid the dark side at the time in question. The masters do tend to treat the younger jedi of the order as children and expect them to act accordingly. To follow your analogy here, the mother tells the child to not run out and play in the street, the boy says he will not obey, and the mother then says, "Fine, but the you can't come home anymore!" And so the boy goes out and gets run over in the street while the mother sits at home sulking about he would not listen, and how it of course was not her fault...

 

um, what about those millions/billions of people that are dead right now because of the JCW? hmm?

 

Casualties of war. Revan would consider them collateral damage that was inevitable if the larger goal of stopping the true Sith was to be achieved. I don't agree with him, but that's how I think he saw it. It like the scenario Revan is put before by the star map computer on Kashyyyk - it the enemy is going to attack a city, and you can save them, but only by giving away strategic knowledge that could win the war, then what do you do? You actually can tell the computer that you do nothing, because those people must be sacrificed to protect your cause, which will save more lives in the long run. You don't even take DS points for taking that option. Now, I know it's not the same, but I think it would seem to be in Revan's twisted mind at the time.

 

you've answered this question yourself. Revan was ds, and his/her goals were twisted so he/she attacked the republic instead of trying to defend it. you've said this some time before on another post. Revan was an amazing tactician, but the ds twisted his/her mind. of course, it's still his/her fault for continuing down the ds path...

 

I don't think that's as true for Revan as it was for Malak due to the way Revan was overcome by the dark side. Revan didn't so much accept the dark side as he was drowned by it - he was forced to surrender to it. Once he set down on Malachor V, not suspecting its cruel nature, he was robbed of all choice in the matter, I think. In a sense, I think he was programmed against his will to be evil - a slave to the dark side. Just as he was later programmed, again against his consent or knowledge, by the jedi masters to be loyal to the Republic.

 

but how were the jedi wrong? Zez-Kai Ell doesn't talk about how they were flawed. remember the mom and toddler analogy?

 

If you don't think Zez-Kai Ell points it out well, then consider what the Disciple says about the matter...

 

Disciple: "Master Arca taught Ulic... Master Baas was the one who saw what Exar Kun could become, but he took no steps to stop him. Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.{A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code."

 

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

Even Disciple sees it, and Zez-Kai Ell admits it too.

 

actually, i would consider that a ls act. Revan's mind was damaged so they actually gave Revan a mind. if they gave the original mind, Revan would be ds right away again and kill many more people. by giving Revan a new mind, the jedi lead Revan to destroy Malak and the star forge. or would you rather that they gave Revan his/her old mind back and he/she'd capture all the jedi and...ugh, i don't even want to talk about it anymore.

 

I disagree completely - using someone to further your own agenda against his knowledge or consent is not an ethical act. Even Zez-Kai Ell admits that in the passage I quoted that you answer here. Now, there are those who say that the masters had no choice, if they were to win the war against Malak. Okay, I'll accept that, but it's still not an ethical thing to do. So essentially, the masters did a little evil to serve a greater good. If they then proceed to blame Revan for doing the same, then it really is the height of hypocrisy.

 

eh? i didn't even consider Atris as a jedi anymore. she hangs out with sith holocrons and is half insane for goodness sake! Kreia was a gray, she was a jedi and was sith, but in the end was neither.

 

Actually, Kreia admits in the passage I quoted that she is Sith, which was my point, since she also says that though that is her title, it is not what she believes or is.

 

i never said Malak was blameless. who told you that? of course i'd have him executed too, but i'm not sure if he's breathing very much anymore Revan is still at fault for turning Malak to the ds and being the one in command for the first part of the JCW. and who do you think started the war, Jediphile, the republic?

 

We don't know. But I could imagine the masters seeing such a message and then forcing the issue because Revan is DS and all evil now and must be stopped at any cost.

 

i haven't conceded to your argument, ED. 2 points:

1. Revan isn't neccesarily doomed to lose if he/she doesn't use the star forge. if so, then what in the world is the point of having a KOTOR 3?

2. Revan has to turn ds to use it, yes, but you seem to have forgotten that Revan didn't use it to stop the true sith, and used to the stop the republic. from existing.

 

1. Ehm... we don't actually have a KotOR3...

 

2. I don't think Revan saw it that way. To Revan he was saving the Republic from the true Sith, and the only way to do that was by conquering it first, so that he could use its resources to fight the true Sith. In fact, the DS ending of KotOR undermines your point, I think, because DS Revan did NOT use his fleet to destroy what remained of the Republic.

 

okay, so wait. you're basically saying in an analogy that there are three kids. kid #1 (republic+jedi) has a lolipop (resources), kid #2 (true sith) wants the lolipop and to beat up 1 (because they're jedi), and kid #3 (Revan) wants to defend the kid 1 and the lolipop and not let #2 get either. so you're saying that it's an excellent strategic move to have 3 beat 1 half to death and take his lolipop so he can eat it. he then has the energy to beat the snot out of 2, who was the main bad guy in the first place.

 

...but then what happens to kid #1, who is now bleeding, had his arms broken, is half dead, and will not be able to heal himself in a long time because there is no ambulance (outside help) in sight? it would take kid #1 months to recover, heck, he could even die! (to translate, when Rev destryes the republic, it may take a very, very long time to recover. it is a stagnant beast, after all. the economy will suffer, people will starve ad revolt, and the galaxy as a whole will lose all hope and enter a galaxy wide "depression". and to add on that, who says the republic will recover at all!?)

 

and this is a good strategic move, you say. i say, just as many people will die because of the aftermath of a shattered republic as if the true sith run in and conquer.

 

The problem is that there is not just one Kid#1, but millions of kid #1. In your scenario, Kid#3 (Revan) rationalizes that he has to bully some of Kid#1 in order to fight Kid#2, so that all the other Kid#1 will be okay.

 

You know for all this talk about how this True Sith threat is this super duper powerful empire which is stronger than every other empire I've yet to see any actual evidence this is true that isn't hyperbole.

 

Really all of Revan's fanboys.... err I means defenders go on about how the True Sith would do this and that and somehow singlehandly defeat the Republic.

 

If they could do this that easily then why haven't they done so by now?

 

Why should they? Things are going pretty well for them - the Mandalorians harm the republic and split the jedi order. Then Revan turns against the Republic and shatters it until he is betrayed by Malak. Malak then continues to run the Republic into the ground until Revan stops him. Then Revan leaves, but a Sith Triumverate begins assassinating the jedi, the last defenders of the Republic. Things are going pretty well for the true Sith, so why should they attack, when they can just sit back and watch all their enemies destroy each other? No, you divide and THEN conquer. They'll wait until the dust settles, and then they'll walk and declare victory over the rubble that remains, killing any pathetic opposition that might remain along the way. The true Sith don't even need to be particularly "super" to do that now, since GOTO has already told us that the Republic is about to collapse.

 

And the whole Republic is corrupt and stagnant argument imo doesn't really fly since I've yet to see any other potential governments at the time do better.

 

Really The Republic for all it's problems really does seem to be the best form of government.They are not opressing anybody that we know of (unlike Revan's Sith), most planets under them seem to be living happily. They also do somewhat try to protect it's citizens.

 

Sure, the Republic has it's problems, but it's also arguably the reason that anybody in the SW Galaxy can lead a relatively comfortable life that is mostly free of threats . Getting rid of it would have absolutely disastrous consequences for the average person unless the entire world is reformed.

 

I actually agree with all of that. What I don't agree with is the argument that the republic is run by all benevolent senators and leaders who think only of the good of the people and never about their own selfserving interests and so always take only the choices that always serve only the greater good.

 

But while I support democracy, it does need the bureaucracy to protect itself at least a little against corruption. This makes it difficult to make hard decisions quickly, and that is rarely an advantage during a time of crisis or even war.

[stoffe]

Actually, I think I would be happy with a slap on the wrist.

At least Revan would get punished.

 

Revan is already dead as a door-nail, having been killed by Bastila and her task force according to the official version (or Malak in truth). That sounds like punishment enough.

 

Sure there's a man/woman walking around that has an appearance very similar to that of Revan, but he/she can be found in the official Republic citizen records as being born on Deralia and having lived a full life of being not-Revan without any association with the Jedi Order until just recently.

 

Is it illegal and punishable by death to have a similar physical appearance as a traitor?

[EnIgmA_XX]

No, that's a "what if" scenario. We don't know that would still have happened. And even if it had, the masters at least would have been out there to see what had happened to Revan before he could subvert the jedi by intervening, perhaps even making him turn from the DS again. But since there were no masters out there, nobody could guide Revan or help him, and he was free to use Malachor V to convert the jedi to sith.

 

Except that supervision you so easily dismiss is precisely what Revan himself needed to avoid the dark side at the time in question. The masters do tend to treat the younger jedi of the order as children and expect them to act accordingly. To follow your analogy here, the mother tells the child to not run out and play in the street, the boy says he will not obey, and the mother then says, "Fine, but the you can't come home anymore!" And so the boy goes out and gets run over in the street while the mother sits at home sulking about he would not listen, and how it of course was not her fault...

 

i could say what if to you as well. but it is still quite probable that Revan goes to Mal V looking for a stronghold. at any rate, Revan became ds, and didn't turn back.

 

i realize the problem of my analogy now. when i was talking about a toddler, it makes Revan seem like a defenceless fool that runs head on into danger. Revan is not a toddler. Revan is a jedi, and can take care of him/herself. Revan is not defenceless, and he/she couldn't turn away from the dark side so it's his/her fault for it. okay, time for another analogy!

 

analogy #2:

 

okay lets say i (a random person) have a friend (Revan) that lives just a bit down the block that's allergic to ice cream (dark side. okay, don't ask me why ice cream is evil). pretend she's also old enough to care for herself (but, uh, still young enough to really like ice cream )now it's a really hot summer day and she's playing outside for some reason. now her mother (jedi) constantly tells her not to go, but she doesn't listen because it is a wonderful summer day. (this would translate to the jedi warning Revan not to go to the Mando wars, but he/she is tempted by being able to help people). the mother is a bit upset with her daughter, but stays indoors because she's obviously old enough to take care of herself, and nothing outside seems too threatening (remember, the jedi don't know that there's danger of the dark side from the war. everything they were saying at that point was speculation). now my friend is hot and tired from the sun, and suddenly a random ice cream truck (Malachor V i think, basically wherever Revan goes to that turns him/her to the ds) comes, and my friend forgets that she is deathly allergic to ice cream. she buys some and she gets like a heart attack or something. (this would be the same as Revan going to Mal V and being turned to the dark side, but he/she can't resist it so he/she turns evil) now, who's fault was it? was it the ice cream truck's (Mal V) for existing in the first place? was it the mother's (jedi) for thinking that her daughter could take care of herself outside, not knowing about the ice cream truck? (remember that her daughter is a quite capable teenager). is it my fault (ramdom people) for not knowing about the situation outside

and instead staying indoors on the summer day playing video games? now, is it Revan's fault for not being able to turn away from ds while he/she was pummeling jedi and the republic?

 

Casualties of war. Revan would consider them collateral damage that was inevitable if the larger goal of stopping the true Sith was to be achieved. I don't agree with him, but that's how I think he saw it. It like the scenario Revan is put before by the star map computer on Kashyyyk - it the enemy is going to attack a city, and you can save them, but only by giving away strategic knowledge that could win the war, then what do you do? You actually can tell the computer that you do nothing, because those people must be sacrificed to protect your cause, which will save more lives in the long run. You don't even take DS points for taking that option. Now, I know it's not the same, but I think it would seem to be in Revan's twisted mind at the time.

 

and it's his/her fault for continuing to be ds.

 

I don't think that's as true for Revan as it was for Malak due to the way Revan was overcome by the dark side. Revan didn't so much accept the dark side as he was drowned by it - he was forced to surrender to it. Once he set down on Malachor V, not suspecting its cruel nature, he was robbed of all choice in the matter, I think. In a sense, I think he was programmed against his will to be evil - a slave to the dark side. Just as he was later programmed, again against his consent or knowledge, by the jedi masters to be loyal to the Republic.

 

he/she was turned on Mal V, yeah, but it's Revan's fault for continuing to be ds when he/she had the power to turn back.

 

If you don't think Zez-Kai Ell points it out well, then consider what the Disciple says about the matter...

 

Disciple: "Master Arca taught Ulic... Master Baas was the one who saw what Exar Kun could become, but he took no steps to stop him. Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.{A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code."

 

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

Even Disciple sees it, and Zez-Kai Ell admits it too.

 

it is still Revan's fault for not turning away from ds later. you can say what you want about the jedi, but in the end, who made that choice to stick with the ds path?

 

I disagree completely - using someone to further your own agenda against his knowledge or consent is not an ethical act. Even Zez-Kai Ell admits that in the passage I quoted that you answer here. Now, there are those who say that the masters had no choice, if they were to win the war against Malak. Okay, I'll accept that, but it's still not an ethical thing to do. So essentially, the masters did a little evil to serve a greater good. If they then proceed to blame Revan for doing the same, then it really is the height of hypocrisy.

 

the jedi didn't kill or torture Revan, Jediphile. and if they had to in order to further their plans, while i can't speak for the entire order, i can say that a lot of the jedi would disapprove, and many would even leave just like Zez-Kai Ell because the order had turned into something they don't beleive in.

 

"using someone to further your own agenda" but what is the jedi's agenda, Jediphile? is it domination of the galaxy? a lust for power?

 

Actually, Kreia admits in the passage I quoted that she is Sith, which was my point, since she also says that though that is her title, it is not what she believes or is.

 

so it's her title, but she isn't one. it's like my title being an accountant, but i am not actually an accountant. the title means nothing if you aren't the title, Jediphile.

 

We don't know. But I could imagine the masters seeing such a message and then forcing the issue because Revan is DS and all evil now and must be stopped at any cost.

 

nobody even knew what happened to Revan. they think he/she's still chasing those Mandos. how and why are they supposed to attack first? "oh, look! it's Spiderman, my hero! i'm gonna go and try to kill him now." O_o

 

1. Ehm... we don't actually have a KotOR3...

 

*sigh* yeah, i know. but some points of probability:

1. TSL ended at a clifhanger

2. clifhanger very usually mean a sequal

3. the devs of TSL already have a bit of a plot for KOTOR 3

4. if there's KOTOR 3 and there is no star forge, what is the point because they can't win?

answer: there is a way to defeat the sith without using the star forge.

 

2. I don't think Revan saw it that way. To Revan he was saving the Republic from the true Sith, and the only way to do that was by conquering it first, so that he could use its resources to fight the true Sith. In fact, the DS ending of KotOR undermines your point, I think, because DS Revan did NOT use his fleet to destroy what remained of the Republic.

 

yes, he/she needs the republic's resources, beating the pulp out of them is just secondary. but does that excuse it?

 

The problem is that there is not just one Kid#1, but millions of kid #1. In your scenario, Kid#3 (Revan) rationalizes that he has to bully some of Kid#1 in order to fight Kid#2, so that all the other Kid#1 will be okay.

 

so 3 beats 1 half to death but spares 1.5. so this is supposed to somehow excuse it?

[Jediphile]

okay lets say i (a random person) have a friend (Revan) that lives just a bit down the block that's allergic to ice cream (dark side. okay, don't ask me why ice cream is evil). pretend she's also old enough to care for herself (but, uh, still young enough to really like ice cream )now it's a really hot summer day and she's playing outside for some reason. now her mother (jedi) constantly tells her not to go, but she doesn't listen because it is a wonderful summer day. (this would translate to the jedi warning Revan not to go to the Mando wars, but he/she is tempted by being able to help people). the mother is a bit upset with her daughter, but stays indoors because she's obviously old enough to take care of herself, and nothing outside seems too threatening (remember, the jedi don't know that there's danger of the dark side from the war. everything they were saying at that point was speculation). now my friend is hot and tired from the sun, and suddenly a random ice cream truck (Malachor V i think, basically wherever Revan goes to that turns him/her to the ds) comes, and my friend forgets that she is deathly allergic to ice cream. she buys some and she gets like a heart attack or something. (this would be the same as Revan going to Mal V and being turned to the dark side, but he/she can't resist it so he/she turns evil) now, who's fault was it? was it the ice cream truck's (Mal V) for existing in the first place? was it the mother's (jedi) for thinking that her daughter could take care of herself outside, not knowing about the ice cream truck? (remember that her daughter is a quite capable teenager). is it my fault (ramdom people) for not knowing about the situation outside

and instead staying indoors on the summer day playing video games? now, is it Revan's fault for not being able to turn away from ds while he/she was pummeling jedi and the republic?

 

The problem with this analogy is the following:

 

remember, the jedi don't know that there's danger of the dark side from the war. everything they were saying at that point was speculation

 

If Revan does not know that the DS is lethal, then you cannot blame him or her for falling prey to it. You seem to think SOMEONE must be responsible. I thought we were trying to establish whether Revan deserves punishment, not to find out who the scapegoat will be...

 

And TSL revolves around the theme that the masters were at fault for failing their studens too.

 

Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

it is still Revan's fault for not turning away from ds later. you can say what you want about the jedi, but in the end, who made that choice to stick with the ds path?

 

Again, no - this is not true for Revan IMHO. It's true for Malak, who says to Revan in the cutscene where they find the star map on Dantooine that if they proceed beyond this point, then they can never go back. Revan steps forward - he has long since fallen - and Malak follows him. Malak walked in with his eyes open. He knew this would be the price, and he still went forward. That makes it his responsibility. Not so for Revan, I think. Revan was drowned and twisted by the dark side against his will on Malachor V. The good side was killed, and though his body and intellect survived, what remained was a dark perversion of the person he had been before. I don't agree that Revan had a choice in the matter.

 

In a sense, he is like Picard on Star Trek, who is assimilated by the Borg and forced to destroy his own people against his will. The Borg took away Picard's personality and made him into a weapon that served their needs. The dark side did the same with Revan. Revan's guilt, like Picard's, lies mostly in that he was not powerful enough to stop this from happening. Simply turning away from the dark side was not an option.

 

Oh, and if Revan is guilty for that, then Bastila is too, since she also did evil instead of simply "deciding to turn away from the dark side."

 

the jedi didn't kill or torture Revan, Jediphile. and if they had to in order to further their plans, while i can't speak for the entire order, i can say that a lot of the jedi would disapprove, and many would even leave just like Zez-Kai Ell because the order had turned into something they don't beleive in.

 

"using someone to further your own agenda" but what is the jedi's agenda, Jediphile? is it domination of the galaxy? a lust for power?

 

I'll accept that the masters chose the lesser of not two but many evils or at least an evil close to the least. However, being a necessary evil does not change that it was an evil. And once we establish that, there is no moral high ground on which to condemn Revan, because everybody else did evil for the greater good, or what they believed to be the greater good. Revan was setting up his forces for the next war against the True Sith, and though we can question his methods, that is a worthy goal in itself. This does not excuse what Revan did, no. I have no illusions about Revan never having done evil. Many of his actions were evil. But he did do them for a goal that was not merely selfserving.

 

The masters rationalize that they needed to do what they did to Revan to save the Republic from Malak, even if it was an evil act. If I'm to accept that, then they must also accept that Revan did what he did to save the Republic from the true Sith. Otherwise they are just as guilty as Revan is. Or rather, both Revan and the masters are guilty, but if Revan deserves punishment, then so do they.

 

so it's her title, but she isn't one. it's like my title being an accountant, but i am not actually an accountant. the title means nothing if you aren't the title, Jediphile.

 

Except Kreia IS Sith. She uses evil powers, she commands the Trayus Academy, she kills the masters, she abuses Atris and the exile, and she sacrifices other people to serve her own personal goals.

 

nobody even knew what happened to Revan. they think he/she's still chasing those Mandos. how and why are they supposed to attack first? "oh, look! it's Spiderman, my hero! i'm gonna go and try to kill him now." O_o

 

Your speculation is no better than anyone else's.

 

*sigh* yeah, i know. but some points of probability:

1. TSL ended at a clifhanger

2. clifhanger very usually mean a sequal

3. the devs of TSL already have a bit of a plot for KOTOR 3

4. if there's KOTOR 3 and there is no star forge, what is the point because they can't win?

answer: there is a way to defeat the sith without using the star forge.

 

1. There are those who disagree with you. I'm not one of them, but they do exist.

2. Usually, yes. But not always.

3. True. Yet the game is still nowhere in sight.

4. You can't know that. Perhaps the fight is hopeless. Or perhaps a new way to fight the true Sith has emerged since Revan tried to use the Starforge.

 

yes, he/she needs the republic's resources, beating the pulp out of them is just secondary. but does that excuse it?

 

I won't try to excuse it. It IS an evil. But it it's a necessary evil, then that does go some way to explain and perhaps, just perhaps, justify it.

[SilentScope001]

Is it illegal and punishable by death to have a similar physical appearance as a traitor?

 

Difference however is that this traitor is receiving his memories of the past, and I believe, will soon turn back into Revan (pre-wipe). Revan (post-wipe) is a brainwashed slave of the Republic, and does not deserve to be punished.

 

But when Revan (post-wipe) turn into Revan (pre-wipe), by gaining all the memories of Revan (pre-wipe)...then? You can expect that Revan (pre-wipe) needs to get punished.

 

Bastila did not kill off Revan (pre-wipe) since the memories of Revan (pre-wipe) remains, and Revan (post-wipe) is gaining them back.

 

Why should they? Things are going pretty well for them - the Mandalorians harm the republic and split the jedi order. Then Revan turns against the Republic and shatters it until he is betrayed by Malak. Malak then continues to run the Republic into the ground until Revan stops him. Then Revan leaves, but a Sith Triumverate begins assassinating the jedi, the last defenders of the Republic. Things are going pretty well for the true Sith, so why should they attack, when they can just sit back and watch all their enemies destroy each other? No, you divide and THEN conquer. They'll wait until the dust settles, and then they'll walk and declare victory over the rubble that remains, killing any pathetic opposition that might remain along the way. The true Sith don't even need to be particularly "super" to do that now, since GOTO has already told us that the Republic is about to collapse.

 

Again, I think you are making a big supposition.

 

Kreia always said that the Sith, after the first Jedi Order spilt, wanted to destroy the Jedi. Kreia's Sith wanted to destroy the Jedi, not the Republic.

 

I think the true war was never against the Republic. If the True Sith controls a huge empire, why bother taking over the Republic? They already are powerful Force Users, and expanding too fast is sort of stupid.

 

I speculate that the True Sith just want to genocide the Jedi. Once the Jedi are dead, then the Dark Side win. The Republic is meaningless, it is the Jedi, the defenders of the Light Side, that matters. Once the Jedi are gone, then, maybe the True Sith will invade, as there is nothing to protect the Republic from the Dark Side, which is what the True Sith really support.

 

So why did the True Sith not invade and reveal themselves? Because the Jedi still live. Revan killed off many Jedi, and converted many others to the Dark Side, but there are still other Jedi remaining...like Vrook, Atris, Kavar....and The Exile. The Sith Trimutiave wanted to wipe them out, and succeded in killing all but one, The Exile. Now that The Exile remained, a new Jedi Order will be formed, and that the True Sith will soon die in K3, because the Light Side is rebuilding itself and will finally trimpuh over the Dark Side.

 

Because that is the core of Star Wars. It's not Republic vs. Evil Enemy. If it was, then PT should have been focused on the CIS vs. Republic war. Instead, it was about Palpatine manlipuating both the Republic and the CIS to fall to the Dark Side, and the resistance by the Light Side (with Padme calling for a peace treaty and Mace Windu wanting to arrest Palpatine). Star Wars has, and always will be, LS vs. DS.

 

[Yes, NJO is the only sole series that focused on Republic vs. Evil Enemy instead of LS vs. DS. And NJO is just...strange, in my book. ]

 

Except Kreia IS Sith. She uses evil powers, she commands the Trayus Academy, she kills the masters, she abuses Atris and the exile, and she sacrifices other people to serve her own personal goals.

 

If Kreia is Sith, she is very unothrodox, to say the least. I have never seen a Sith Lord other than Kreia lust for the destruction of the very thing that makes her powerful (The Force)...or a Sith Lord telling his appericante to, in short, "Kill me!"

[Masgrtgr]

Now that The Exile remained, a new Jedi Order will be formed, and that the True Sith will soon die in K3, because the Light Side is rebuilding itself and will finally trimpuh over the Dark Side.

 

That's funny cause last time I checked Exile could have just as easily be a dark sider himself/herself.

[SilentScope001]

That's funny cause last time I checked Exile could have just as easily be a dark sider himself/herself.

 

 

We're assuming canon here (even though my Revan and Exile are DSM). If Revan was a Dark Sider, most people would agree that Revan should be lynched.

 

And Exile's companions could form a Dark Jedi Order. It still is Jedi, just you know, embracing the Dark Side.

[Emperor Devon]

omg stop beating me down because i'm not an uber 8 star general like Revan, would you?

 

First, I'm not "beating you down" over not being a general. Rather, I am asking how you you can expect Revan to win a war that you yourself don't even have a guess as to how to win.

 

Second, generals usually only go up to five stars.

 

1. Revan isn't neccesarily doomed to lose if he/she doesn't use the star forge.

 

Ehh???

 

about the Star Forge, yeah, look i know that it is the key to saving the republic

 

the star forge is the key to helping the republic

 

Then why did you say that?

 

How would you propose Revan go about winning the war against the true Sith without the Star Forge?

 

i've no idea.

 

2. Revan has to turn ds to use it, yes, but you seem to have forgotten that Revan didn't use it to stop the true sith, and used to the stop the republic. from existing.

 

To hell with the Republic, we're talking about its citizens. Were the true Sith to conquer it they would likely kill trillions and rule the galaxy for millenia with none to oppose them. Were Revan to win, he would kill millions, keep the Republic's infrastructure intact, and defeat the enemy who intended to kill millions of times as many people as he did. Since the only two options available to the galaxy are evil ones, you might as well pick the lesser form of it. (Indirectly, this addresses the rest of your points, btw)

 

when i didn't include factors such as terrain, i was kinda assuming that the terrain was equally advantageous to both sides. {snip} ?

 

I'd choose to set up an ambush and have the infantry lob grenades at the tank (they can be extremely effective at destroying them). Following that I'd have the other tank open fire and try to run over the enemy soldiers, with mine providing cover fire (very hard for them to throw grenades when they're being shot at).

[EnIgmA_XX]

If Revan does not know that the DS is lethal, then you cannot blame him or her for falling prey to it. You seem to think SOMEONE must be responsible. I thought we were trying to establish whether Revan deserves punishment, not to find out who the scapegoat will be...

 

how the heck does Revan not know that the ds is lethal? and no, i don't think that it necesarily has to be someone's fault, considering that we don't know if Revan knew that Mal V was tainted with ds. but it is still Revan's fault for continuing to be ds when he/she could've turned away.

 

And TSL revolves around the theme that the masters were at fault for failing their studens too.

 

Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

KOTOR doesn't revolve around the theme that the masters were "losers", it revolved around a controvertial choice that obviously was done for the greater good. for TSL, they were obviously wrong in what they did to the exile, but the Mando wars were a more arguable subject, one that your exile could take different sides on and you could even say that the jedi were making the right choice. so that makes it not so clear cut as you seem to believe.

 

Again, no - this is not true for Revan IMHO. It's true for Malak, who says to Revan in the cutscene where they find the star map on Dantooine that if they proceed beyond this point, then they can never go back. Revan steps forward - he has long since fallen - and Malak follows him. Malak walked in with his eyes open. He knew this would be the price, and he still went forward. That makes it his responsibility. Not so for Revan, I think. Revan was drowned and twisted by the dark side against his will on Malachor V. The good side was killed, and though his body and intellect survived, what remained was a dark perversion of the person he had been before. I don't agree that Revan had a choice in the matter.

 

In a sense, he is like Picard on Star Trek, who is assimilated by the Borg and forced to destroy his own people against his will. The Borg took away Picard's personality and made him into a weapon that served their needs. The dark side did the same with Revan. Revan's guilt, like Picard's, lies mostly in that he was not powerful enough to stop this from happening. Simply turning away from the dark side was not an option.

 

Oh, and if Revan is guilty for that, then Bastila is too, since she also did evil instead of simply "deciding to turn away from the dark side."

 

and how exactly did you come up with this hypothesis? this really looks like a bunch of guesswork. all we know is that Revan was ds. that's it i think. you can't just put events into your own interpretation to show that Revan didn't have a choice. everyone has a choice to turn away from the darkside even Vader, supposedly one of the epitomes of evil in the OT, turned away at the end.

 

btw, where are you getting these ideas that i'm trying at all to defend Bastila? i'd have her punished, too.

 

I'll accept that the masters chose the lesser of not two but many evils or at least an evil close to the least. However, being a necessary evil does not change that it was an evil. And once we establish that, there is no moral high ground on which to condemn Revan, because everybody else did evil for the greater good, or what they believed to be the greater good. Revan was setting up his forces for the next war against the True Sith, and though we can question his methods, that is a worthy goal in itself. This does not excuse what Revan did, no. I have no illusions about Revan never having done evil. Many of his actions were evil. But he did do them for a goal that was not merely selfserving.

 

The masters rationalize that they needed to do what they did to Revan to save the Republic from Malak, even if it was an evil act. If I'm to accept that, then they must also accept that Revan did what he did to save the Republic from the true Sith. Otherwise they are just as guilty as Revan is. Or rather, both Revan and the masters are guilty, but if Revan deserves punishment, then so do they.

 

okay, then i'll go and say it again:

 

it's wrong if your intentions suck. and if you kill more people than necesary.

 

does Revan have the right intentions? yes for the most part. did Revan kill more people than necesary? you better believe it.

 

Except Kreia IS Sith. She uses evil powers, she commands the Trayus Academy, she kills the masters, she abuses Atris and the exile, and she sacrifices other people to serve her own personal goals.

 

but what are her goals? are they sith like? what was her alignment when we had her in our group? she was sith, Jediphile. that's why she uses sith powers. and yes, she is a manipulator. but in the end she's a very grey one.

 

Your speculation is no better than anyone else's.

 

i think i do remember Carth saying that the sith attacked without warning, but i'm lazy to take out KOTOR and play through it. my point is, though, that there is more proof, even just a bit more, that Revan attacked first than proof that another party attacked first. in which case, there'd be none at all and your only argument being "you don't know if the republic attacked first" or "you don't know if flying ewoks attacked first".

 

1. There are those who disagree with you. I'm not one of them, but they do exist.

 

ya, i know. but if we took 100 tsl players, i wonder how many would say tsl ended at a cliffhanger.

 

2. Usually, yes. But not always.

3. True. Yet the game is still nowhere in sight.

 

and i wonder what the percent chance is that there'd be a KOTOR 3 considering:

1. its popularity

2. the cliffhanger

3. that the devs of tsl already have pieces of a KOTOR 3 story together

 

4. You can't know that. Perhaps the fight is hopeless. Or perhaps a new way to fight the true Sith has emerged since Revan tried to use the Starforge.

 

perhaps it is hopeless. but again, considering that it is a sw game, i wonder what the chances are of the ending being "Revan and the exile are dead. the galaxy is shrouded in darkness." it seems more probable that it would be another "woot! Revan and exile and other protagonist from KOTOR 3 win!" ending,

 

I won't try to excuse it. It IS an evil. But it it's a necessary evil, then that does go some way to explain and perhaps, just perhaps, justify it.

 

i don't think so, Jediphile. that's quite a stretch.

 

First, I'm not "beating you down" over not being a general. Rather, I am asking how you you can expect Revan to win a war that you yourself don't even have a guess as to how to win.

 

Second, generals usually only go up to five stars.

 

ED, i might not have that many good ideas as to how to win, but i'll tell you now, i sure as h*ll can at least attempt to defend the republic without smashing it into tiny pieces.

 

and yes, i know it goes up to five, that's kinda my point when i added the word "uber" in the phrase.

 

Ehh???

 

well, if there is no chance of stopping the sith without the star forge, then what is the point of tsl and a possible kotor 3? hm?

 

Then why did you say that?

 

i'm not gonna deny that the star forge is a key to saving the republic, i'd be dumb to. BUT, it's not the only key. think about it, why would Revan go to the unknown regions alone if he/she had no chance at all of being able to do something about the threat? Revan must've had a plan of some sort or had some way of being able to at least substantialy hinder the sith threat.

 

To hell with the Republic, we're talking about its citizens. Were the true Sith to conquer it they would likely kill trillions and rule the galaxy for millenia with none to oppose them. Were Revan to win, he would kill millions, keep the Republic's infrastructure intact, and defeat the enemy who intended to kill millions of times as many people as he did. Since the only two options available to the galaxy are evil ones, you might as well pick the lesser form of it. (Indirectly, this addresses the rest of your points, btw)

 

those aren't the only options, as i've addressed earlier. and you know, to add yet another option, Revan doesn't need to destroy the republic, just needs to use the star forge to help it. okay, so let's say the republic has 1000 soldiers and resources and Revan has 1000 soldiers and the star forge. you see, what Revan basically wanted to do was to kill those 1000 republic soldiers and take control of the republic an its resources so he/she can supposedly "win". what Revan should've done was have those 2 sets of forces work together, and if not that, at the very least use them to save the republic together, and not practice your command skills on your ally. Revan can ask for some resources from the republic, and don't you give me that corrupt senator speech because Revan doesn't need that many resources anyway, he/she has the star forge. all Revan needs to do is find a sun and then poof! all the ships you can ever want can be made. this way, Revan and the republic can properly defend against the attack.

 

I'd choose to set up an ambush and have the infantry lob grenades at the tank (they can be extremely effective at destroying them). Following that I'd have the other tank open fire and try to run over the enemy soldiers, with mine providing cover fire (very hard for them to throw grenades when they're being shot at).

 

and when your infantry lob grenades at my tank, they create minimal damage. how? 2 things:

1. when i said the tank was 3 times bigger than yours, i kinda meant 3 times the armor and firepower

2. courtesy of Call of Duty 2 and Company of Heroes, i know that grenades aren't particularly useful against tanks. what i think you were trying to suggest was that they use sticky bombs. these explosives used during the WW2 time period were quite effective against tanks, as well as being able to stick to them.

 

your tank can attempt to run over infantry and fire at them, but at the very most you'd be able to kill only 1 or 2 squad's worth of people. my men use sticky grenades at your tank, while my larger, stronger tank circles it and gets a hit to the rear. of course you can turn your tank around to face mine, but then my men are still attacking your tank using the sticky bombs and they'd be the ones to get a rear hit. basically, your tank is screwed. meanwhile, the other squads (anywhere from 1-3 of them) are protecting my fourth squad that is using the sticky bombs from your men.

 

your move.

[Jediphile]

how the heck does Revan not know that the ds is lethal? and no, i don't think that it necesarily has to be someone's fault, considering that we don't know if Revan knew that Mal V was tainted with ds. but it is still Revan's fault for continuing to be ds when he/she could've turned away.

 

and how exactly did you come up with this hypothesis? this really looks like a bunch of guesswork. all we know is that Revan was ds. that's it i think. you can't just put events into your own interpretation to show that Revan didn't have a choice. everyone has a choice to turn away from the darkside even Vader, supposedly one of the epitomes of evil in the OT, turned away at the end.

 

Because you can't just turn away from the dark side. It's not something you can just casually decide to do, especially not in Revan's case, where he was drowned in it until there was only a horrible perversion of him left, unlike Bastila and Malak who were seduced by their own desire for power. You seem to believe that the dark side is a cloak that you can just simply take off whenever you feel like it, but EVERYTHING we know of the dark side suggests the opposite.

 

Example: Ulic could not turn away until he realised he had murdered his brother.

 

Example: Vader could not turn away until he saw the emporor killing his son.

 

Example: Luke could not turn away until Leia forced him to choose between killing her or the emperor.

 

Example: Bastila (canon) could not turn away until her beloved Revan forced her to either kill him or turn away.

 

Example: Ajunta Pall could not return to the light until Revan convinced him he had suffered long enough.

 

See a pattern there? Turning away from the dark side means abandoning your entire belief system, and it takes something pretty major to shake you out of your convictions, so that you reexamine your outlook on life. That takes clarity, which is rare indeed. It certainly isn't something you can just decide on by yourself. You need to have evidence stuck right in your face that what you do is wrong. Or as they say in the real world, you cannot cure someone until they acknowledge that they have a problem.

 

Bastila: "The dark side is not simply giving in to anger or temptation to use the Force to destructive ends. These things only lead to the dark side. The dark side grows stronger and more insidious the closer you draw to it. It begs you to surrender to it, to release all its terrible power... and it becomes harder and harder to resist. And once you stop resisting, it is too late. It twists you up inside and... and turns you into a mockery of everything you once stood for."

 

KOTOR doesn't revolve around the theme that the masters were "losers", it revolved around a controvertial choice that obviously was done for the greater good. for TSL, they were obviously wrong in what they did to the exile, but the Mando wars were a more arguable subject, one that your exile could take different sides on and you could even say that the jedi were making the right choice. so that makes it not so clear cut as you seem to believe.

 

To each his own. I felt even in KotOR that the masters were wrong to just let the Republic bleed in the Mandalorian Wars. TSL really just underscored a point that was already there with the masters finally admitting to their own flaws.

 

does Revan have the right intentions? yes for the most part. did Revan kill more people than necesary? you better believe it.

 

And how many did he kill, as in Revan specifically?

 

And how many does it take, before it becomes wrong? How many would have been okay?

 

but what are her goals? are they sith like? what was her alignment when we had her in our group? she was sith, Jediphile. that's why she uses sith powers. and yes, she is a manipulator. but in the end she's a very grey one.

 

My point is that she is still sith even though her goals are not like those of most sith. Hence my point that the dark side does not equal evil by definition any more than the light side always equals good.

 

i think i do remember Carth saying that the sith attacked without warning, but i'm lazy to take out KOTOR and play through it. my point is, though, that there is more proof, even just a bit more, that Revan attacked first than proof that another party attacked first. in which case, there'd be none at all and your only argument being "you don't know if the republic attacked first" or "you don't know if flying ewoks attacked first".

 

I knew there was a reason I hated those pesky ewoks...

[SilentScope001]

And how many did he kill, as in Revan specifically?

 

And how many does it take, before it becomes wrong? How many would have been okay?

 

How many does it take before it becomes wrong? None. We don't execute Jedi for murdering Sith in cold blood. Why isn't Carth's head on the executioner's block for slaughtering some Mandos? It isn't the act of killing that makes me upset. Heh, if Revan says: "Listen, those civilians, they are actually aiding the Exchange, blow them up!" and if Revan presents evidence that the civilians are indeed aiding the Exchange, and Revan does blow them up, you won't get any picket lines being formed.

 

However, it is not the act of killing that is wrong, but rather the act of betaryal of the Republic's ideas.

 

It is the act of Revan wanting to destroy the Republic, and its ideals, to create a brand new Sith Empire that is Dark Sided. Good and Evil may be relative, but the Sith Empire is indeed Dark Sided, and if Revan succeded, the Light Side would be gone, and with it, freedom, justice, etc.

 

If Revan formed a terrorist group to overthrow the Republic, or if Revan launched a military coup that would overthrow the Senate, or if Revan led the Great Jedi Lynching, all of these things would still, in the end, violate the ideas of the Republic, and it is that which is wrong, not the ending of lives.

 

Ideas are far more important than a human being's life. Especially when you realize a human being, being part of the Force, lives forever in the Netherlands of the Force.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Because you can't just turn away from the dark side. It's not something you can just casually decide to do, especially not in Revan's case, where he was drowned in it until there was only a horrible perversion of him left, unlike Bastila and Malak who were seduced by their own desire for power. You seem to believe that the dark side is a cloak that you can just simply take off whenever you feel like it, but EVERYTHING we know of the dark side suggests the opposite.

 

See a pattern there? Turning away from the dark side means abandoning your entire belief system, and it takes something pretty major to shake you out of your convictions, so that you reexamine your outlook on life. That takes clarity, which is rare indeed. It certainly isn't something you can just decide on by yourself. You need to have evidence stuck right in your face that what you do is wrong. Or as they say in the real world, you cannot cure someone until they acknowledge that they have a problem.

 

again, the "drowning in dark side" theory is total speculation. it holds no water at all.

 

as well, i'll show this again to refresh everyone's memory:

 

I'm sorry for starting you down that path, but you chose to continue down it.

 

the dark side is a powerful force, yes. it is hard to turn away from, to say the least. but that does not excuse it. uh huh, that's right. it's time for yet another analogy!

 

okay, in my opinion the dark side actually has a lot of similarities to taking drugs. here, let's take smoking. so, nobody thinks when they're growing up that they're gonna smoke or take drugs, right? of course not. but what happens? they get tempted to. and yes, many people do end up taking drugs in their teenage and adult years. it is HARD to quit. very, very hard. but no matter what kind of excuse you come up with, hey, you're still smoking! you're still hurting yourself and the people around you! most of the time it takes a life changing moment (heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc.) that finally hits you hard enough to make you quit. but you can quit before hand.

 

alright, now that i have my analogy up and running, it time to make the connections. i seriously doubt that any self respecting jedi padawan thinks that they're going to end up turning to the dark side. does it happen? uh, yeah. the second you fall to the dark side, from that point forward it grabs hold of you and keeps you from changing. it makes you attack other innocent people and do other random bad things that i'm just too lazy to mention. and no, duh it is hard to stop. does that excuse the fact that you are stealing and killing? NO, NO, NO! it does not!!! you, are a murderer. is it a valid excuse that "i, uh, it was too hard to turn away." no. that is a horrible excuse to kill people. of course, most of the time it would take a big, really big moment to make a person change from that. but that doesn't mean that you are rendered uncapable of changing until someone finally gives you a good smack to the head and tell you to "just wake up already!" you can always change. just like you can always quit smoking. and if you stop late, you are no less at fault for killing those people than any other person.

 

Revan probably didn't have a choice to resist the dark side on Malachor V. but can you run around on a galactic killing spree and then turn around and say that it wasn't your fault? you go and answer that for me.

 

To each his own. I felt even in KotOR that the masters were wrong to just let the Republic bleed in the Mandalorian Wars. TSL really just underscored a point that was already there with the masters finally admitting to their own flaws.

 

yes they were wrong in most respects in regards to Mal V. but not all times. they still tried to stop Revan and others from joining. and going back to that mom and toddler analogy (about the supervision you suggested) you have to remember, the mom (jedi) is not invincible either. a jedi master is a jedi master, but they aren't immune to the dark side, especially in a place like Mal V. by going with Revan to Mal V for supservision, it is the equivalent of a mother saying to her child: "come on, let's go and play together on this freeway!" okay, the mom's there. is it any safer?

 

and not all the masters were admitting to their flaws. i didn't see Vrook doing that, and not very much for Kavar. oh yes, you can go and say that Zez-Kai Ell was the smartest and most enlightened one, but in the end that's only your opinion. Vrook and Kavar are just as smart as Zez-Kai Ell.

 

And how many did he kill, as in Revan specifically?

 

And how many does it take, before it becomes wrong? How many would have been okay?

 

do you need numbers? i think we can all tell the difference between one person killing 2 people and another killing 31. don't forget to take into account the killing by the sith troops and Malak while Revan was in command. you see, Jediphile, we don't need a number threshold. Revan killed a lot of people. we should make our decision accordingly.

 

My point is that she is still sith even though her goals are not like those of most sith. Hence my point that the dark side does not equal evil by definition any more than the light side always equals good.

 

but she isn't sith. it is her title, but it is not her nor does it define her. therefore, at least in my book, she isn't a sith.

 

I knew there was a reason I hated those pesky ewoks...

 

[Jediphile]

again, the "drowning in dark side" theory is total speculation. it holds no water at all.

 

To recant...

 

KotOR2 Chronicles: "It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

 

Yes, SOMETHING is leaking, all right...

 

Oh, and I like how you completely reject my conclusion by conveniently omitting and ignoring all the examples and quotes that led to it.

 

the dark side is a powerful force, yes. it is hard to turn away from, to say the least. but that does not excuse it. uh huh, that's right. it's time for yet another analogy!

 

okay, in my opinion the dark side actually has a lot of similarities to taking drugs. here, let's take smoking. so, nobody thinks when they're growing up that they're gonna smoke or take drugs, right? of course not. but what happens? they get tempted to. and yes, many people do end up taking drugs in their teenage and adult years. it is HARD to quit. very, very hard. but no matter what kind of excuse you come up with, hey, you're still smoking! you're still hurting yourself and the people around you! most of the time it takes a life changing moment (heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc.) that finally hits you hard enough to make you quit. but you can quit before hand.

 

alright, now that i have my analogy up and running, it time to make the connections. i seriously doubt that any self respecting jedi padawan thinks that they're going to end up turning to the dark side. does it happen? uh, yeah. the second you fall to the dark side, from that point forward it grabs hold of you and keeps you from changing. it makes you attack other innocent people and do other random bad things that i'm just too lazy to mention. and no, duh it is hard to stop. does that excuse the fact that you are stealing and killing? NO, NO, NO! it does not!!! you, are a murderer. is it a valid excuse that "i, uh, it was too hard to turn away." no. that is a horrible excuse to kill people. of course, most of the time it would take a big, really big moment to make a person change from that. but that doesn't mean that you are rendered uncapable of changing until someone finally gives you a good smack to the head and tell you to "just wake up already!" you can always change. just like you can always quit smoking. and if you stop late, you are no less at fault for killing those people than any other person.[/Quote]

 

This is not a good example IMHO, since it is completely individual and optional whether anyone sees any relevance to the discussion at all.

 

Most obviously, could you quit smoking? Probably, but why do you need to? Sure, smoking is unhealty, but then so are lots of things we consume, and none of us are going to live forever anyway.

 

Oh, and who is harmed by someone smoking? You could mention second-hand smoking, but it does seem to pale next to thousands of dead people, or even just one, methinks.

 

Besides, your conclusions here are opinions. You may think there is no excuse, but you can't state that as fact, since anyone is free to disagree with you. I don't really, but I do think the way you state it is painting things rather too black and white. These things are rarely that simple IMHO.

 

Revan probably didn't have a choice to resist the dark side on Malachor V. but can you run around on a galactic killing spree and then turn around and say that it wasn't your fault? you go and answer that for me.

 

When did Revan claim he was not responsible? IMHO LS Revan took responsibility and tried to atone. I think that's why he went off to fight the true Sith all alone.

 

And it's still not Revan's fault alone. The masters share the responsibility, because they failed him and others during the Mandalorian Wars. Zez-Kai Ell even admits it.

 

yes they were wrong in most respects in regards to Mal V. but not all times. they still tried to stop Revan and others from joining. and going back to that mom and toddler analogy (about the supervision you suggested) you have to remember, the mom (jedi) is not invincible either. a jedi master is a jedi master, but they aren't immune to the dark side, especially in a place like Mal V. by going with Revan to Mal V for supservision, it is the equivalent of a mother saying to her child: "come on, let's go and play together on this freeway!" okay, the mom's there. is it any safer?

 

and not all the masters were admitting to their flaws. i didn't see Vrook doing that, and not very much for Kavar. oh yes, you can go and say that Zez-Kai Ell was the smartest and most enlightened one, but in the end that's only your opinion. Vrook and Kavar are just as smart as Zez-Kai Ell.

 

If you're going to take Vrook as a source of reference, then there is little point in arguing. Vrook sees the dark side everywhere and talks down to ANYBODY. He's even so stupid he blurts out Revan's secret right to his face when the masters have just decided to keep it secret and ordered Bastila to do the same. Vrook wouldn't recognize his own flaws because he doesn't have any. After all, Vrook is always right, especially when he's always wrong...

 

I guess you'll quote Atris as well? Oh, and isn't the fact that Atris refuses to go to war the real reason why she later falls to the dark side? Kreia says so, and I didn't even hear Atris objecting. Not much support for the masters choices there, I fear.

 

And as for Kavar...

 

Kavar: "So you heard what we said? These questions I cannot answer. This is something the Council must answer, not I.You must understand . This is hard for me, especially after all you've done. But it is necessary."

 

That's why Kavar says nothing. Heck, even Disciple knows it...

 

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

do you need numbers? i think we can all tell the difference between one person killing 2 people and another killing 31. don't forget to take into account the killing by the sith troops and Malak while Revan was in command. you see, Jediphile, we don't need a number threshold. Revan killed a lot of people. we should make our decision accordingly.

 

Revan is not responsible for every death that his soldiers caused, because they may just as well have killed people out of their own malice or bloodlust. Again, "I was only following orders" is NOT an excuse - if a soldier murders, then he carries responsibility even if ordered to. You can't pin it all on Revan.

 

And no, I don't need numbers, because killing is wrong. Period. Killing 2 people is no better than killing 25. You're a murderer either way. This does not apply to Revan, however, who was fighting a war. Sure, call him a traitor if you will, but it's pretty easy math to figure out that he was fighting for his own empire and not the Republic during the Jedi Civil War. Besides, as Cardinal Richelieu would say, "treason is only a matter of dates..."

 

And if we get into the question of whether fighting the Republic was necessary in order to serve the greater cause of stopping the true Sith, then it gets even more muddied, because while you can still call it wrong, you can also argue that it was necessary for the greater good. If you don't want to accept that, then fine, but then you can't accept the jedi order's abuse of Revan either, when they needed to find the Starforge.

 

Besides, nobody is saying Revan did good. Revan did terrible things. But there are reasons for it that should be considered extenuating circumstances. Revan also DID save the Republic by destroying the Starforge and defeating Malak. To not consider that on the scale of is unjust. He did evil, okay, but he did good also, and he did not start out with malicious intent.

 

but she isn't sith. it is her title, but it is not her nor does it define her. therefore, at least in my book, she isn't a sith.

 

Fine. You have every right to your opinion. To me she is still admitting to Atris that she is indeed Sith, though.

[Emperor Devon]

ED, i might not have that many good ideas as to how to win, but i'll tell you now, i sure as h*ll can at least attempt to defend the republic without smashing it into tiny pieces.

 

In that case your defense of the Republic would be in vain, fail abysmally, and serve no purpose. Heroics and patriotism alone are insufficient to save a nation.

 

well, if there is no chance of stopping the sith without the star forge, then what is the point of tsl and a possible kotor 3? hm?

 

The fun of it?

 

My suspicion is that in KotOR III the good guys will win once more against impossible odds - that's how it goes in the movies/games. However, we are debating this on a more serious level.

 

I'm not gonna deny that the star forge is a key to saving the republic, i'd be dumb to. BUT, it's not the only key. think about it, why would Revan go to the unknown regions alone if he/she had no chance at all of being able to do something about the threat? Revan must've had a plan of some sort or had some way of being able to at least substantialy hinder the sith threat.

 

As the Star Forge was gone, he had to resort another (inferior) plan, which was preferable to none at all.

 

For darksiders my suspicion was that, realizing the true Sith would attack soon, he tried to delay the true Sith himself somehow while his minions (likely Traya) conquered the Republic in his absence and prevented them from having to fight a two-front war. Unfortunately, he overestimated how loyal Sith could be.

 

let's say the republic has 1000 soldiers and resources and Revan has 1000 soldiers and the star forge. you see, what Revan basically wanted to do was to kill those 1000 republic soldiers and take control of the republic an its resources so he/she can supposedly "win".

 

That is winning, given how he has far more ships (and better ones) than the Republic, and cannot have both. Why that is I will address in my next point.

 

what Revan should've done was have those 2 sets of forces work together, and if not that, at the very least use them to save the republic together, and not practice your command skills on your ally.

 

They are not Revan's ally, nor is he the Republic's - although I imagine he would prefer not having to fight it, the Republic is extremely prejudiced towards darksiders. Asking them to work together would be the equivalent of Stalin asking to work alongside Hitler, which in both contexts would be refused, despite it being entirely illogical to do so.

 

{war game snipped} your move.

 

Might I suggest starting a thread somewhere else for this? It's not relevant to the topic and is becoming fairly prolonged.

[EnIgmA_XX]

To recant...

 

KotOR2 Chronicles: "It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

 

Yes, SOMETHING is leaking, all right...

 

Oh, and I like how you completely reject my conclusion by conveniently omitting and ignoring all the examples and quotes that led to it.

 

hm? but nowhere on the quote does it say that Revan turned into something different than a normal dark sider. nowhere does it say that he/she continued to rampage around while ds against his/her will. and nowhere does it say that Revan couldn't turn back.

 

oh, and i was trying to save some space on the post. sry if you got pissed off.

 

of course it's hard to stop being ds. but nowhere does it say that it's impossible. it doesn't say anywhere that something totally huge has to happen in order to change back. what happened to the accountability? i never meant that it was just something that one dark jedi one day just decides to say "okay, from now on i will be ls!" it is a lot harder. but it shouldn't be impossible to do. people like Bastila, darth Malak, and yes, darth Revan probably had the ability to turn back. heck, even in kotor and tsl, a dark side pc could turn back from the dark side.

 

This is not a good example IMHO, since it is completely individual and optional whether anyone sees any relevance to the discussion at all.

 

what? i've explained the relevance. unless you are going to look and each of my points and prove that they have nothing to do with each other, than my analogy is perfectly fine. considering that you haven't proven any irrelevance between the two, there is no reason to think that my analogy is wrong.

 

Most obviously, could you quit smoking? Probably, but why do you need to? Sure, smoking is unhealty, but then so are lots of things we consume, and none of us are going to live forever anyway.

 

okay, so i can sleep while i drive if i want to because, hey, i'm just gonna die eventually. same thing with setting things on fire for fun, not having a job, and killing a lot of people because i happen to be a dark jedi. hey, don't blame me, those people had their time coming anyway!

 

okay, so is what i said above correct?

 

Oh, and who is harmed by someone smoking? You could mention second-hand smoking, but it does seem to pale next to thousands of dead people, or even just one, methinks.

 

it was an analogy. like, you're relating things but they're not exactly the same, nor are they supposed to be EXACTLY the same. otherwise i'd be having an "analogy" of a certain person waging war with the republic...

 

Besides, your conclusions here are opinions. You may think there is no excuse, but you can't state that as fact, since anyone is free to disagree with you. I don't really, but I do think the way you state it is painting things rather too black and white. These things are rarely that simple IMHO.

 

but what you're basically saying is that it is impossible to turn from the dark side normally. "You may think there is no excuse" so i'm wrong? there's an excuse? so Palpatine can say that" guys, seriously i couldn't turn back. nobody gave me the chance of a life changing experience so it's really not my fault!" is that right? because Malak, Sion, Vader (pre redemption), Dooku, Maul, and all those other sith can say that.

 

When did Revan claim he was not responsible? IMHO LS Revan took responsibility and tried to atone. I think that's why he went off to fight the true Sith all alone.

 

true, but as we've disscussed before, is that an excuse for it?

 

And it's still not Revan's fault alone. The masters share the responsibility, because they failed him and others during the Mandalorian Wars. Zez-Kai Ell even admits it.

 

what? since when everything Zez-Kai Ell says is the law? so what, you're going to just forget about the other 10 or so jedi masters and what they think because they don't agree with you? you also forgot to answer the mom and toddler analogy. seriously, what else could the jedi masters have done? what would have made it better (only when talking about whether Revan fell or not)?

 

If you're going to take Vrook as a source of reference, then there is little point in arguing. Vrook sees the dark side everywhere and talks down to ANYBODY. He's even so stupid he blurts out Revan's secret right to his face when the masters have just decided to keep it secret and ordered Bastila to do the same. Vrook wouldn't recognize his own flaws because he doesn't have any. After all, Vrook is always right, especially when he's always wrong...

 

I guess you'll quote Atris as well? Oh, and isn't the fact that Atris refuses to go to war the real reason why she later falls to the dark side? Kreia says so, and I didn't even hear Atris objecting. Not much support for the masters choices there, I fear.

 

And as for Kavar...

 

Kavar: "So you heard what we said? These questions I cannot answer. This is something the Council must answer, not I.You must understand . This is hard for me, especially after all you've done. But it is necessary."

 

That's why Kavar says nothing. Heck, even Disciple knows it...

 

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

yeah, Vrook is arrogant, but that doesn't mean that everything he says can be tossed away by you like garbage. i didn't quote Atris for a reason. i never really considered her a jedi, and we're talking about Revan ONLY. and Kavar stays neutral then, i suppose?

 

Revan is not responsible for every death that his soldiers caused, because they may just as well have killed people out of their own malice or bloodlust. Again, "I was only following orders" is NOT an excuse - if a soldier murders, then he carries responsibility even if ordered to. You can't pin it all on Revan.

 

not responsible for every one, no. but still in a part responsible. Hitler didn't kill anybody with his own hands, so is he clean?

 

And no, I don't need numbers, because killing is wrong. Period. Killing 2 people is no better than killing 25. You're a murderer either way. This does not apply to Revan, however, who was fighting a war. Sure, call him a traitor if you will, but it's pretty easy math to figure out that he was fighting for his own empire and not the Republic during the Jedi Civil War. Besides, as Cardinal Richelieu would say, "treason is only a matter of dates..."

 

"And no, I don't need numbers, because killing is wrong. Period. Killing 2 people is no better than killing 25. You're a murderer either way." so in your perspective we could take some random murderer from the sw galaxy and stack him/her against Revan, Malak, Saul, Bandon, Uthar, and Yuthura put together and they'd be the same thing. nice.

 

and we aren't talking just about treason for Revan. we're talking about all of those deaths that were caused by the JCW.

 

And if we get into the question of whether fighting the Republic was necessary in order to serve the greater cause of stopping the true Sith, then it gets even more muddied, because while you can still call it wrong, you can also argue that it was necessary for the greater good. If you don't want to accept that, then fine, but then you can't accept the jedi order's abuse of Revan either, when they needed to find the Starforge.

 

you know, this reminds me all of a sudden. you know those terrorists that caused 911 and the destruction of the world trade center? they thought they were doing the right thing, y'know that?

 

and what the jedi did is not the same thing as what Revan did. why do you keep suggesting that they're on the same level? the jedi didn't kill anyone, and Revan even killed people unnecesarily! look at the JCW. they are NOT the same.

 

Besides, nobody is saying Revan did good. Revan did terrible things. But there are reasons for it that should be considered extenuating circumstances. Revan also DID save the Republic by destroying the Starforge and defeating Malak. To not consider that on the scale of is unjust. He did evil, okay, but he did good also, and he did not start out with malicious intent.

 

yes Revan didn't start evil, but that doesn't mean that it's all fine now.

 

Fine. You have every right to your opinion. To me she is still admitting to Atris that she is indeed Sith, though.

 

than we can't argue this any longer.

 

ED, i'll get to your points later. i'm getting lazy again.

[SilentScope001]

Sorry to resurrect such a dead thread, but it seems there is new evidence that the Prosecution like to bring against Revan here...

 

It seems to me that Revan was already a Dark Sider before the Mandalorian Wars actually begun. This means that he was not converted by the dark energies of Malachor V, or that he saw the True Sith and say, "Oh. I must fall to the Dark Side in order to destroy the enemy!"

 

It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed.

 

This is indeed the conversion of Revan to the Dark Side, and it happened during the first year of the Mandalorian Wars, when everyone was rushing to join Revan's crusade to fend off the Mandalorians. However...

 

... Vrook states in the first game that Revan and Malak had fallen to the dark side before the war and that the council had been unable to turn them back. In KotOR:TSL, Mical states that Revan spoke to Kreia before the war in order to ask her how to best leave the order. As such, Revan's fall seems to have occurred shortly before the Jedi officially entered the war in 3963 BBY and the Chronicles only confirm that fact.–SentryTalk 09:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

:Hey Sentry - I didn't even realize that it was you who had added it, or just yesterday for that matter. I just came here by coincidence. I'll add my points if you want. But as for Revan's fall, everyone else who described Revan indicated that his fall happened during the war, although he was definatly showing some dark side like tendencies. Besides, Vrook obviously had a biased point of view, because Zhar Dorack, and Kreia differed with his opinion. Personally I do find it easy to believe that he fell before the war though and nobody noticed. Space Ball 09:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 

Yes, it's a bit too late, but if it is true that Revan (pre-wipe) fell to the Dark Side before the Manedalorian Wars, then his intentions, to save the Republic, was not that pure at all. He just wanted an excuse to take over the Republic to form a Sith Empire, and the "True Sith" provided that excuse.

[Jediphile]

Sorry to resurrect such a dead thread, but it seems there is new evidence that the Prosecution like to bring against Revan here...

 

It seems to me that Revan was already a Dark Sider before the Mandalorian Wars actually begun. This means that he was not converted by the dark energies of Malachor V, or that he saw the True Sith and say, "Oh. I must fall to the Dark Side in order to destroy the enemy!"

 

It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed.

 

This is indeed the conversion of Revan to the Dark Side, and it happened during the first year of the Mandalorian Wars, when everyone was rushing to join Revan's crusade to fend off the Mandalorians.

 

If Revan fell before the war without "outside help" then I would agree with you. But I doubt that, and there is no evidence to support it. What you state here also has a problem, since while it does state the year 3963 BBY, which is indeed the year the war begins (as chronicled recently by the KotOR comic book), the next chapter of the chronicles do not begin the year after...

 

Part X: Proving Grounds

Time frame: 3,961 - 3,956 B.B.Y.

Period name: Knights of the Old Republic

 

It is a period of tumult and astuteness for the galaxy's most powerful entities, as the Mandalorian conflict culminates. The Jedi, fighting alongside the Republic and their finest tactical minds, such as Admiral SAUL KARATH aboard his flagship Leviathan, begin to force the fierce Mandalorians back into a retreat. The rout of the Mandalorians reaches a crescendo above the skies of Malachor V. Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

 

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause. This process of "turning" Jedi into SITH ASSASSINS continued even as the Jedi Council hailed Revan as a hero, as he lead the Republic forces to victory over the Mandalorians in the skies above Malachor V, and forces them to surrender. Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle, destroying the Mandalore and ending the Mandalorian threat. Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence.

 

A lone Jedi Knight, who had journeyed earlier to fight alongside Revan, forsakes him after the surrender of the Mandalorians - and the apparent loss of the Knight's connection to the Force during the battle - and journeys back to the Old Republic, determined not to fight any longer. The Knight is exiled by the Jedi Order, and the Knight's lightsaber is removed. Meanwhile, Darth Revan and his apprentice, DARTH MALAK, return from the Mandalorian War with a new fleet, comprising many previously loyal Republic soldiers and commanders, and a systematic and lethal attack begins. In tandem with the attacks of his fleet, Revan orders his SITH ASSASSINS to ratchet up the frequency and brutality of their swift attack strikes. The period of history known as the Old Republic Insurrection begins.

 

In disarray, the Jedi Council quickly gathers a small band of Jedi warriors together under the command of Jedi BASTILA SHAN with an imperative and almost suicidal mission; to capture Darth Revan, demoralize his troops, and strangle the insurrection. Setting a trap against a small Republic fleet, a small Jedi strike force boards Revan's ship, battling the Dark Lord into submission. Rather than helping his Master, DARTH MALAK lets the Jedi drag Revan from the throne after attempting a mind-wipe which was only partially successful. Returning to the Council with a comatose Revan, Jedi Masters healed Revan's mind, and implanted a loyal Republic personality.

 

In short, year 3962 BBY is missing from the chain of events, and I do think we can assume that lots of events took place during that year. So while Revan doubtlessly moved "surreptitiously between unknown sectors", I don't think we actually know if he found Malachor V in 3963 BBY or 3962 BBY. We just know that he did before 3961 BBY.

 

However...

... Vrook states in the first game that Revan and Malak had fallen to the dark side before the war and that the council had been unable to turn them back. In KotOR:TSL, Mical states that Revan spoke to Kreia before the war in order to ask her how to best leave the order. As such, Revan's fall seems to have occurred shortly before the Jedi officially entered the war in 3963 BBY and the Chronicles only confirm that fact.–SentryTalk 09:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

:Hey Sentry - I didn't even realize that it was you who had added it, or just yesterday for that matter. I just came here by coincidence. I'll add my points if you want. But as for Revan's fall, everyone else who described Revan indicated that his fall happened during the war, although he was definatly showing some dark side like tendencies. Besides, Vrook obviously had a biased point of view, because Zhar Dorack, and Kreia differed with his opinion. Personally I do find it easy to believe that he fell before the war though and nobody noticed. Space Ball 09:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 

Yes, it's a bit too late, but if it is true that Revan (pre-wipe) fell to the Dark Side before the Manedalorian Wars, then his intentions, to save the Republic, was not that pure at all. He just wanted an excuse to take over the Republic to form a Sith Empire, and the "True Sith" provided that excuse.

 

True, but first I'd say we should consider the source, and Vrook is not the most objective in this regard, since he sees the dark side everywhere.

 

Since you bring in Vrook as a character witness, I think it's relevant that we consider his motives and convictions.

 

Vrook basically accuses both Revan and exile of being dark sided even if they have LS mastery in either game... Not all the masters are correct in their assumptions, and Vrook and Atris would be primary suspects there, just after Lucien Draay's

Jedi Covenant who brutally murdered their own padawans out of fear of the return of the Sith.

 

When Vrook says Revan fell before the war, he might simply be referring to Revan's insistance on fighting the Mandalorians and conclude that when Revan did not listen to the council, then it's because he had already fallen.

 

There is some speculation that the "Unknown hooded Jedi" in the KotOR comic book is Revan, but even if he isn't, he sure does argue Revan's points about going to war with the Mandalorians in issue 9. The mysterious jedi has even sent out scouts to spy on the Mandalorians, who have then been captured. How does Vrook respond to this?

 

Vrook: "And involving other knights and padawans in your "scouting missions" was simply beyond reproach! And now we learn that some of them were captured before the surprise attack - and after you left for Onderon! A refugee who saw it all told us! You will find them and bring them directly back here. No diversion, no delay! There was no place for the order in the wrangling over the outer rim, and there is certainly no place for it in a wider Mandalorian War!"

 

But Vrook's repsonse to the jedi covenant (not knowing what they did) is even more inflexible, when they ask to lead a search for Zayne Carrick, whom they framed for killing their padawans..

 

Vrook: "You know, I've never really understood how you five kept winding up together, but it's safe to say that the fruits of your collaboration have not impressed us. I don't think we need see any more. You are all being reassigned to separate postings. An alert about Carrick's group will be sent to all jedi stations. May the force be with..."

 

Raana Tey: "No! Master, you can't..."

 

Vrook: "That's enough! If we're going to have a jedi council at all, then somebody, somewhere, is going to do what it tells them!"

 

Vrook is an autocratic, no-nonsense kind of master with little or no understanding of those who disagree with him. If they do, it's because they are stupid, mistaken or dark sided. Period! He's a "my way or the high way"-type of person, who would all but agree with Anakin Skywalker that "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!"

 

Just look at the recorded conversation he has with Vandar about the exile...

 

Vrook: "{static, 1 sec}...{annoyed}today I caught him in a heated argument with my Padawan! His Master refuses to properly discipline{static, 1 sec}. I want to know what action you intend!

 

Vandar: "Vrook, I respect your wisdom, but it is not your concern."

 

Vrook: "{upset} But... {static, 1 sec} uncontrolled! {static 1 sec}...whatever the other Padawans see him do, they are quick to do the same... {static}other students dislike him intensely!{patient}

 

Vandar: "True, an average student of the Force... {static}but with a unique strength...{static} is a natural leader...{static}"

 

Vrook: "{upset}I strongly disagree...{static, 2 sec} mediocre Jedi...{static 1 sec} lust for power! {static, 1 sec}...will lead to the dark side! Furthermore it... {static, 2 sec}"

 

See? This is well before the war, and Vrook is already saying the exile will definitely fall to the dark side. And is he quite clearly wrong, since the exile's absolute refusal to fall to the dark side is the very core of the problem in TSL.

 

Of course, if we ignore Vrook, you could still point to the bit you quote about Mical stating "that Revan spoke to Kreia before the war in order to ask her how to best leave the order. As such, Revan's fall seems to have occurred shortly before the Jedi officially entered the war in 3963 BBY."

 

Well, quite simply this is incorrect. Let's examine what Mical actually does say...

 

Disciple: "Master Arca taught Ulic... Master Baas was the one who saw what Exar Kun could become, but he took no steps to stop him. Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.{A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code."

 

That's the entire quote, and there is no mentioning of dates in there at all. It doesn't even say that Revan fell to the dark side. He left the order, yes, but even if he did that before the war, that does not automatically mean that he fell to the dark side. Vrook would argue that, sure, but it would be inconclusive and opinionated. After all, Jolee Bindo left the jedi order a long, long time before Revan, but never fell to the dark side. Revan might simply have left because the order refused to get involved in the war.

[EnIgmA_XX]

In that case your defense of the Republic would be in vain, fail abysmally, and serve no purpose. Heroics and patriotism alone are insufficient to save a nation.

 

and blowing up the republic is a better idea because...?

 

The fun of it?

 

My suspicion is that in KotOR III the good guys will win once more against impossible odds - that's how it goes in the movies/games. However, we are debating this on a more serious level.

 

i suppose you have a pretty good point here. but when we are making this disscussion i always thought that we were using real world morality and court rules in a sw galaxy. in sw, ya, there are uber jedi and dark jedi and it so happens that Revan is one of them.

 

As the Star Forge was gone, he had to resort another (inferior) plan, which was preferable to none at all.

 

For darksiders my suspicion was that, realizing the true Sith would attack soon, he tried to delay the true Sith himself somehow while his minions (likely Traya) conquered the Republic in his absence and prevented them from having to fight a two-front war. Unfortunately, he overestimated how loyal Sith could be.

 

okay, so the plan is inferior. i'll say this now to make my point. other than the ds corruption and requirements of the star forge, i think it's a perfectly good idea. but why, WHY did Revan have to use it to attack the republic instead of doing the original goal of stopping the true sith?

 

That is winning, given how he has far more ships (and better ones) than the Republic, and cannot have both. Why that is I will address in my next point.

 

They are not Revan's ally, nor is he the Republic's - although I imagine he would prefer not having to fight it, the Republic is extremely prejudiced towards darksiders. Asking them to work together would be the equivalent of Stalin asking to work alongside Hitler, which in both contexts would be refused, despite it being entirely illogical to do so.

 

and how is the republic prejudiced to DSers? i think you're talking about the jedi. the republic never side with ds people because they have the jedi. again, to the republic, Revan is a warhero/superstar. his/her word holds weight, and a LOT of it.

 

as well, for another point, think about this. hypothetically, even if the jedi and republic don't like Revan and won't side with him/her, they wouldn't attack him/her. why? because jedi uphold the light side. they wouldn't attack a person with no intent to harm anyone (true sith excluded). Revan might be ds, but he/she is smart enough to know that. so why would Revan waste resources on a war with an opponent that loves him/her, and if not that, at least an opponent that probably couldn't care less.

 

Might I suggest starting a thread somewhere else for this? It's not relevant to the topic and is becoming fairly prolonged.

 

hm, alright let's drop this.

 

 

SS001 and Jediphile, your disscussion is quite an interesting point there. unfortunately, i have nothing useful to contribute there right now, so i'll just listen in for a bit.

[Jediphile]

what? since when everything Zez-Kai Ell says is the law? so what, you're going to just forget about the other 10 or so jedi masters and what they think because they don't agree with you? you also forgot to answer the mom and toddler analogy. seriously, what else could the jedi masters have done? what would have made it better (only when talking about whether Revan fell or not)?

 

yeah, Vrook is arrogant, but that doesn't mean that everything he says can be tossed away by you like garbage. i didn't quote Atris for a reason. i never really considered her a jedi, and we're talking about Revan ONLY. and Kavar stays neutral then, i suppose?

 

Zez-Kai Ell is not the only one. Consider the Exile's trial at the jedi council:

 

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut-scene sequence of the player's trial with the Jedi Council members.}{[The camera will pan across the darkened area, showing each of the Jedi Council members, then it will turn toward the entrance to the room, to show the hologram of the player coming in.]}

 

Vrook: "Do you know why we have called you here?

 

Exile:

1. I came because I chose to, not because you summoned me.

2. You have called me here to answer for my crimes on Malachor V.

3. Whaever your reasons, speak them, or let me go.

 

Kavar: "As Revan summoned you, so have you come full circle to return to the Jedi."

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "Why did you defy us? The Jedi are guardians of the peace and have been for centuries. This call to war undermines all that we have worked for.

 

Atris: "Is Revan your master now? Or is it the horror you wrought at Malachor that has caused you to see the truth at last?"

 

Exile:

1. I realize that following Revan to war was in violation of the Jedi Code - and I broke it, knowingly defying the wishes of the council.

2. If you seek to punish me, get on with it.

3. The truth is the Mandalorians had to be stopped, or countless more would have died.

4. You were not at Malachor, and you will never understand.

5. The truth is that no jedi should turn from war - they should embrace it.

6. I'd slaughter every Mandalorian if I could - except Malachor did it for me.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "You refuse to hear us. You have shut us out, and so have shut yourself to the galaxy.Know that there is no turning back from this judgment.It is good you recognize this. It means you will understand why you must leave us.We feel that your true understanding of what happened at Malachor V will only happen in time. And it cannot happen here, near the battlegrounds where you fought."

 

Lonna Vash: "You are exiled, and you are a Jedi no longer."

 

Vrook: "There is one last thing. Your lightsaber. Surrender it to us."

 

[The Exile now strikes his lightsaber into stone-like object in the room, then leaves.]

 

Kavar: "Much defiance in that one."

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "You were correct, Kavar. When he was here I felt it. It was as if he was not there, more like an echo. Revan's influence has grown, amongst the youngest of the Order - he speaks to their passions, not their sense."

 

Lonna Vash: "The war has touched the youngest of the Order. Many of them have lost themselves in battle against the Mandalorians.It is as I feared. And I fear that we have played into the hands of the enemy."

 

Atris {Grim, hates player secretly}: "We have not lost a Jedi this day. You felt it... he has lost himself. He is no Jedi - he walked Revan's path, but he was not strong enough."

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I fear it is our teachings that may have led Revan to choose the path he did."

 

Atris: "We are not the ones who taught him."

 

Lonna Vash: "We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame."

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "The choice of one was the choice of us all. Revan's teacher intended no harm. And Revan had many teachers since."

 

Atris: "Yet they all stem from the same source. Her teachings violated the Jedi Code and lead all who listen to the dark side, as they did the exile."

 

Lonna Vash: "You are wrong. The dark side is not what I sensed in the exile. Surely the rest of you felt it as well. That emptiness we felt... he has changed."

 

Atris: "Whatever that wound was, it was of the dark side. We should not have let him depart. He will simply join Revan again, or perhaps worse."

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "What would you have be done with him, Atris? Be mindful of your feelings. This is not Revan who stood before you. This one walks a different path."

 

Kavar: "No, although that may come in time. We let him go because we must. Where he travels, he carries his destination with him. We must let him go there. That is our only chance to know what has happened, and what the future holds."

 

Atris: "Malachor V should have been his grave. You saw it in his walk, and in the Force. It was as if he was already dead."

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "No, not death. Many battles remain for that one, if what we have seen is true. But the future is a shifting thing, and he cuts like a blade through it."

 

Lonna Vash: "We should have told him the truth. A Jedi deserves to know."

 

Vrook: "No good would have come from it, even if what you believed was true. There is still the matter of Revan, and such truths could leave us vulnerable on two fronts."

 

Kavar: "Perhaps in many years, we will call him before us and explain what happened to him and how he may be healed. Until then, he must accept his journey."

 

Lonna Vash: "But he may never discover the truth. And he will never know why we cast him out.

 

Kavar: "Then that is the future we must accept."

 

 

People frequently dismiss anything that Vash says because most of it is cut content, but this IS actually in the game and canon, and she is clearly on Zez-Kai Ell's side. Heck, she took responsibility for the failed jedi teachings even at the exile's trials, which is almost a decade before Zez-Kai Ell concedes the same point to the exile.

 

Kavar is on the fence but a close friend of Zez-Kai Ell. So if I had to guess from that and from his comments in the game, I'd say he is leaning in that direction too. He certainly does not throw all blame on Revan and the exile, as Atris and Vrook do.

 

not responsible for every one, no. but still in a part responsible. Hitler didn't kill anybody with his own hands, so is he clean?

 

Hitler was never redeemed, nor is has there ever been any evidence that he ever tried to atone.

 

you know, this reminds me all of a sudden. you know those terrorists that caused 911 and the destruction of the world trade center? they thought they were doing the right thing, y'know that?

 

 

yes Revan didn't start evil, but that doesn't mean that it's all fine now.

 

No, but what do you suggest then? Revan should just be killed for what he did?

 

Let's try another approach...

 

First of all, I will NEVER accept that Revan (or anyone else for that matter) must be executed or punished in any other way solely for the sake of appeasing public opinion. That is mob mentality and NOT justice! You can argue it's just my opinion - fine - but it's indisputable! You do not punish someone just because the public calls out for blood. That's uncivilized and barbaric. Period! You judge to a sentence that fits the crime. End of story.

 

Now, Revan has done very bad and evil things. He should take some responsibility for his acts. However, extenuating circumstances are reasonable to consider in such a case. You can just say "well, 600+ = death sentence. That's it I'm afraid..."

 

Not to excuse but Revan did, but I agree with Picard on Star Trek that, "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute!"

 

I will always think so. Justice must be blind, yes, but that does not mean black and white. If you oversimplify a case for the sake of convenience that it's a miscarriage of justice and a new crime of its own. You MUST consider all points relevant.

 

And let's look at it practically. Revan did bad things, true. Then he was redeemed and did good things like destroying the Starforge and defeating Malak. But we shouldn't let that excuse what he did originally, so let's chop off his head and put it on a pike for the greater glory of justice.

 

Now, a few hundred years pass, and another ex-jedi Sith Lord rises to power. He makes war on the Republic and kills millions until his apprentice betrays him. This apprentice betrays him and leaves him for dead, taking over the the title of dark lord. The former dark lord is not dead, however, and the betrayal of his apprentice causes him to reconsider his motives. This leads him to break free from the hold the dark side has on him, and now he considers that he really should help the Republic and the jedi against his old apprentice, not for revenge, but to atone for the evil he did himself.

 

Now what will this ex-jedi/sith think in this situation? He will think: "Wait... Isn't that what Revan did hundreds of years ago? And what did the Republic do to him? They EXECUTED him for it!! Well, screw that!" And so ends the Republic, finally falling to the might of the Sith...

 

Whether Revan deserves it or not (and that is no admission), killing Revan is just stupid and impractical for that reason alone.

[SilentScope001]

In short, year 3962 BBY is missing from the chain of events, and I do think we can assume that lots of events took place during that year. So while Revan doubtlessly moved "surreptitiously between unknown sectors", I don't think we actually know if he found Malachor V in 3963 BBY or 3962 BBY. We just know that he did before 3961 BBY.

 

Huh. Still, it makes sense, only from an Occam's Razor point to assume he fell in 3963 BBY, which is where it was stated. But you can argue in a different method.

 

True, but first I'd say we should consider the source, and Vrook is not the most objective in this regard, since he sees the dark side everywhere.

 

Of course I know he's not exactly "objective" in the matter. But within the game, Vrook is intelligent. He's arrogant, but intelligent, and seems to be right in certain matters. He, for example, knows about how Exile cut off ties with the Force Bonds. Sure, Vrook wanted to strip Exile from the Force, which may be irrational, but the fact that he learnt that Exile cut off ties with the Force at all is interesting.

 

Vrook does not make the assumption that the Exile has fallen to the Dark Side, at least, he fails to tell me that in my face. Even if The Exile goes and screams to all the Jedi that he is going to kill them, Vrook calms the other two Jedi, stating that while he condemns the action of The Exile, they will not fight him. Instead, he is just willing to strip the Exile from the Force rather than lynch him. He is basically the Voice of {Biased} Reason.

 

Vrook made a comment that Revan have fallen before the Mandalorian Wars, and I know you throw that into question. But Vrook always see the dark side of people, and has been hardened by both the Exar Kun's War and the Jedi Civil War, where people both fell to the Dark Side. So, he remains ever-vigliant about any sign of corruption, and he detected corruption within Revan.

 

If only Vrook was here to tell us exactly what corruption he saw in Revan.

 

That's the entire quote, and there is no mentioning of dates in there at all. It doesn't even say that Revan fell to the dark side. He left the order, yes, but even if he did that before the war, that does not automatically mean that he fell to the dark side. Vrook would argue that, sure, but it would be inconclusive and opinionated. After all, Jolee Bindo left the jedi order a long, long time before Revan, but never fell to the dark side. Revan might simply have left because the order refused to get involved in the war.

 

Don't forget what Kreia says on the matter. Kreia: "And he came to me, for he has learnt all that he needed to know from the Jedi Order, except how to leave it."

 

According to Kreia, Revan left the Order because he already learnt everything from the Jedi Order. He already became a great powerhouse. It leads me to wonder therefore why Revan wants to leave the Jedi Order then, unless he wanted to fall to the Dark Side and learn its teachings, thereby growing more powerful. Again, another person may argue that Revan was disillusioned by the Council's desicion and decided he does not need to leave again.

 

Specific dates are needed before we can make a conclusive judgments. I doubt K3 would ever give us what we want, therefore, Revan's fate is in flux. I find it easier to accept that Revan fell to the DS before the Mandalorian Wars, but your Revan is different from my Revan.

 

Jolee Bindo is a difference because the Order rewarded him for killing his wife. He left the Order because the Jedi Order was so blind to Jolee's sins, and willing to forget the codes of redemeption. In other words, he's more Light Sided than the Light Siders of the Jedi Council. I speculate Jolee was in the Order before Vrook came to power, which would explain the strange "punishment" the Jedi Order gave him.

 

Jolee Bindo could not fall to the Dark Side, since the Dark Side requires you to give into passion. Jolee Bindo, refusing his promotion and giving up all human contact and being a hermit, showcases that he has no passion whatsoever.

 

Note: I understand that I am attacking Revan (Pre-Wipe) because it seems my case on executing Revan (Post-Wipe) depends on the question on if Revan's previous personality was totally wiped. If it is, Revan's saved. If it isn't, then we kill him. Redemeption means nothing, since I believe that the only thing that was redeemed was Revan's New Personality. But, we are already pass this point, and I think we changed topics from the Exeuction of Revan (Post-Wipe) to the Execution of Revan (Pre-Wipe).

[Jediphile]

Huh. Still, it makes sense, only from an Occam's Razor point to assume he fell in 3963 BBY, which is where it was stated. But you can argue in a different method.

 

Perhaps you're right, but that still doesn't put it before the war, since 3963 BBY is indeed the year when the war began.

 

Of course I know he's not exactly "objective" in the matter. But within the game, Vrook is intelligent. He's arrogant, but intelligent, and seems to be right in certain matters. He, for example, knows about how Exile cut off ties with the Force Bonds. Sure, Vrook wanted to strip Exile from the Force, which may be irrational, but the fact that he learnt that Exile cut off ties with the Force at all is interesting.

 

So what. The entire council did, or at least what remained of it. Besides, Vrook might have known simply because someone else told him. There is nothing to suggest, let alone prove, that Vrook has unique knowledge or insights into this.

 

Vrook made a comment that Revan have fallen before the Mandalorian Wars, and I know you throw that into question. But Vrook always see the dark side of people, and has been hardened by both the Exar Kun's War and the Jedi Civil War, where people both fell to the Dark Side. So, he remains ever-vigliant about any sign of corruption, and he detected corruption within Revan.

 

Which is exactly the point - Vrook always sees the dark side because he's always looking for it. And he has no unique insights. Who do I know that? Because he only sees it padawans and jedi who do not do exactly what he bloody tells them to. Atris was sitting right there next him, and I've certainly never seen any indication that he ever saw fault in her. If Vrook is as good at spotting the taint of the dark side as I understand you to suggest here, then shouldn't he have seen Atris' corruption years before? Yet Atris got away with it all. So much for Vrook's insights...

 

Don't forget what Kreia says on the matter. Kreia: "And he came to me, for he has learnt all that he needed to know from the Jedi Order, except how to leave it."

 

You mean this:

 

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

Yes, but that still has no time frame. Just as Disciple's comments didn't. It doesn't tell us when he fell or why.

 

Jolee Bindo is a difference because the Order rewarded him for killing his wife. He left the Order because the Jedi Order was so blind to Jolee's sins, and willing to forget the codes of redemeption. In other words, he's more Light Sided than the Light Siders of the Jedi Council. I speculate Jolee was in the Order before Vrook came to power, which would explain the strange "punishment" the Jedi Order gave him.

 

Uhm, you 've got that a bit backwards. Jolee didn't kill his wife - that was his crime. He trained her in the jedi ways, but then she fell to the dark side during the Old Sith War. When he wouldn't turn to the dark side like her, she tried to kill him. He defeated her, but couldn't bring himself to kill her, and so he let her go. She went on to kill other jedi, before she was finally killed herself. Having trained her against the wishes of the jedi order, he felt guilty, but the order refused to punish him for it, because they felt he needed sympathy and understanding. In short, they forgave him. That's why he left - because he was never able to forgive himself, and that the jedi did meant that they stranded him with his guilt.

 

Jolee Bindo could not fall to the Dark Side, since the Dark Side requires you to give into passion. Jolee Bindo, refusing his promotion and giving up all human contact and being a hermit, showcases that he has no passion whatsoever.

 

Jolee was passionate enough to take a wife, and he was passionate enough to love her so much that he couldn't kill her in spite of what she had done. He certainly could have fallen. That he did not is a testament to both his character and his philosophy.

[SilentScope001]

Perhaps you're right, but that still doesn't put it before the war, since 3963 BBY is indeed the year when the war began.

 

/shrugs. It seemed that he wanted to find such a place instead of stumbling upon it.

 

So what. The entire council did, or at least what remained of it. Besides, Vrook might have known simply because someone else told him. There is nothing to suggest, let alone prove, that Vrook has unique knowledge or insights into this.

 

Ah.

 

Which is exactly the point - Vrook always sees the dark side because he's always looking for it. And he has no unique insights. Who do I know that? Because he only sees it padawans and jedi who do not do exactly what he bloody tells them to. Atris was sitting right there next him, and I've certainly never seen any indication that he ever saw fault in her. If Vrook is as good at spotting the taint of the dark side as I understand you to suggest here, then shouldn't he have seen Atris' corruption years before? Yet Atris got away with it all. So much for Vrook's insights...

 

Well, it might be becasue Atris fell to the Dark Side after she met up with Vrook, and got corrupted by the holocrons and by The Exile's betrayal. Not to mention, it's hard to believe someone could fall to the Dark Side if you assume they've been killed by Nihilus.

 

Vrook has flaws, but he appears to be intelligent, and he appears to be smart, and his sources seem to be useful. I know the developers want us to hate Vrook, but it seems that his testiomony should be taken into consideration, even so there are potential biases within them.

 

You mean this:

 

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

Yes, but that still has no time frame. Just as Disciple's comments didn't. It doesn't tell us when he fell or why.

 

It does tell us why he left the order: He learnt all he could from the Jedi and wanted to leave. Why does he want to leave the Jedi Order then? Just because you learnt everything you needed to learn, why would you want to leave it...unless you want to learn something else? This is a clue to indicate Dark Side tendencies.

 

We also know that Revan joined up with the Mandalorian Wars, disobeying the Jedi Council, which is basically a great way of "leaving" the Order, which is likely what this quote alludes to.

 

Another thing to note, in 3,955 - 3,953 B.B.Y.:

 

JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force.

 

Alright. So, before Kreia got converted to the Dark Side, she actually felt sorry for teaching Revan his final lesson, of how best to leave the Order. Kreia also blamed herself for showing Revan the path to the Dark Side. She soon scummbed to the same energy that Revan felt and got different views. But, until then, we got some evidence that Kreia thought that she was the cause of all the mayhem.

 

Uhm, you 've got that a bit backwards. Jolee didn't kill his wife - that was his crime.

 

Er. My bad for typing that way. I didn't play Jolee for a long time. Yes, Jolee did not kill his wife, and that was actually Jolee's crime, since Jolee, in his act of sparing his wife...well, killed many other Jedi in the process.

 

In short, they forgave him. That's why he left - because he was never able to forgive himself, and that the jedi did meant that they stranded him with his guilt.[/qute]

 

Yeah. My point about Jolee remains: Unlike Revan (pre-wipe), he is sorry for what he has done. He left the Order because the Jedi Order was so blind to Jolee's sins (which was sparing instead of killing).

 

Jolee was passionate enough to take a wife, and he was passionate enough to love her so much that he couldn't kill her in spite of what she had done. He certainly could have fallen. That he did not is a testament to both his character and his philosophy.

 

Or a testament that he basically abandoned his passion to become Light Sided. Jolee did nothing to help out the Wookies, you know, which was not what his previous Jolee-self would have done...that self was smuggling goods against the orders of a tyrant and was active. This Jolee did nothing and merely watched the Wookies suffer.