What should we do about Attack Parries?

[Maxstate]

In comparison to the new reposits, the old ones have to be deliberate and are completely independant of any other move. And they are only easier when doing them deliberately when trying them by themselves (hopefully easier for noobs to learn toi). The new reposits can be done (and ARE usually done) coming right out of a slowbounce or any second hit. You can just hold the buttons and parry because by the time they hit you, your block or slowbounce animation ends and its an extrememly easy reposit. Thats why tanqexe was able to attack parry me constantly in our last few fights, even though he didnt even know how to do them in the new code! Last I talked to him, he missed the old way too. Your ideas on how to fix them will not help how often they happen that much or allow the powerattacks to be swung at any better.

They might've been better for the job as they didn't interfere with anything else but that wasn't my point, they were easier to do because you could only focus on them and didn't have to attack or think of anything else. With power attacks coming with the new ones, you actually have to think about what you're doing in case you get overwhelmed or hit someone somewhere you didn't want too.

 

No, the new attack parries have way too many issues to be preferable over the old ones. If its spammed, hopefully Razor will listen to my kick idea that I posted above Don't think it will be though, I rememeber our system seeming more offense heavy back when it was around than it is now. I'm willing to bet they happen alot more now then they did back then.

I guess.

 

For the record, my server is set at 350. That 1 thing is a bug that occasionally happens to my server for some reason. Anyways, a quick blast of lightning stopping your swing can interrupt the flow of the battle and give your opponent the upper hand. Its still quite annoying. Hopefully Razor will add that no offensive power thing for weapons that ou and he talked about so we won't have to deal with lightning + gunner spam.

 

The force regen on your server is so high that it doesn't matter what the Jedi does; they don't have to think about the consequences of their force drain because they don't have to deal with fatigue since force replenishes too fast.

That's why Lightning might seem overpowered. On my server, you're left with 20 or less FP if you want lightning to have any effect, which is too little to be of any use in a saber match, especially if countered with lightning so your FP meter stops recharging to recharge DP.

 

Also, do note that for one level of Force lightning you can get 2 levels of Force Absorb! That makes it much less than useless!

 

...and I agree, grip should not cost that much unless its as good as lightning and its just not.

 

Just for the fact that Grip can't penetrate a good force block defense doesn't mean it's less vital or useful than lightning is. I prefer grip over lightning any day because it gives me a surefire kill for any low dp/high mishap/low FP character.

[JackBaldy]

They might've been better for the job as they didn't interfere with anything else but that wasn't my point, they were easier to do because you could only focus on them and didn't have to attack or think of anything else. With power attacks coming with the new ones, you actually have to think about what you're doing in case you get overwhelmed or hit someone somewhere you didn't want too.

 

You're talking as if attack parries of the good 'ol days were very easy to do. They weren't. The way it is now, it is pretty damn easy though. It just says, 'I am an Attack Fake, come spam me and you'll have the ability to easily attack parry anything you want, just as before but now you have to hold two buttons, no problem.'

[JackBaldy]

Just for the fact that Grip can't penetrate a good force block defense doesn't mean it's less vital or useful than lightning is. I prefer grip over lightning any day because it gives me a surefire kill for any low dp/high mishap/low FP character.

 

I'm wondering how you could think that Grip could provide a surefire way to kill someone and Lightning can't in the same exact position while using a lot less force and being done a lot more easily.

[Maxstate]

Sorry, no.

 

They might've been better for the job as they didn't interfere with anything else but that wasn't my point, they were easier to do because you could only focus on them and didn't have to attack or think of anything else. With power attacks coming with the new ones, you actually have to think about what you're doing in case you get overwhelmed or hit someone somewhere you didn't want too.

 

What did I say? It is far too easy to perform a riposte, even if you have the chance of doing a power attack. It will get even easier if it gets bounded to just riposting again.

 

Thusly, I suggested we just leave it the way it is for now untill we can think of something better. No, returning it to an even easier form is not better.

 

Returning it to the old version of using fakes or attacks will make it much easier, much more spammed than it is now and will leave regular attacks and regular parries down in the dirt.

 

My take on this is that we should fix it by having riposted power attacks get a bigger bounce and setting the forceregentime on servers lower.

 

Edit:

Because lightning blasts opponents away, sometimes or most of the times to the floor which allows them to not only roll away or attempt to escape but also allows them time to build up some dodge. When gripped you are unable to escape and can be brought closer to your opponent, when dropped you are also still standing and incapacitated and can be killed in one swipe. I am not sure whether the bars stand still or recharge but I thought DP goes down when gripped.

 

Edit to the post below mine:

I'm trying to say that you should read my arguments better and actually provide counter arguments instead of just trying to show how the old ones are better with Hockney as your backup. You two play together a lot and it's clear that you also share the same opinion on many things. Fine by me, but try to actually support that opinion with more than dribbel.

 

I wish the people I played with would register.. I'm looking at you Rache!

 

Also, a double post post topped off with a very short and useless hypocritical one.

[JackBaldy]

Repeating what you said really isn't adding anything to this discussion and just shows you don't really have anything to say. Why reply at all then?

[JackBaldy]

With all my experience with Lightning no one who is force vulnerable while fighting me ever get thrown too far that I couldn't hit them in a saber fight. And I am almost positive that when you are lightninged down you cannot roll or move away.

[JackBaldy]

Yes Hocks and I play together, but that doesn't mean we always agree. Sometimes I have to SHOW and EXPLAIN to Hocks why I think what I think. A lot of things that Hocks agrees with me now he didn't agree at first. I am providing 'counter arguments' you just are not reading them if you think I am not.

[JackBaldy]

By the way, when Hocks and I play it is always at DEFAULT force regeneration, so don't be thinking that I play at anything other than DEFAULT force regen time.

[Maxstate]

Your second post:

And in all my experience, which, I strongly believe would undermine yours, I disagree.

 

Your third post:

Please state these counter arguments and I will try to present a nice argument in return.

 

Your fourth post:

That's another your word against mine. I'm running servers too and playing with a lot of different expert duelers and none of them have complained thus far. Edit: Need I say that Hocks JUST said that it's set to "350"?

[JackBaldy]

I don't play at his server Max. And you may say that your experience is greater than mine but that's just your ego talking as usual. And I am not complaining, I am simply stating my thoughts on Lightning being overpowered, because quite frankly, that's what I think. There's a lot of evidence to 'prove' this. AND for the love of god Max, it is not my damn fault that you can't see the counter arguments. If you choose to not read or comprehend any of my posts I'm not going to go and baby sit you by pointing every damn little **** I say and explaining every single word in vivid detail.

[Maxstate]

I don't play at his server Max. And you may say that your experience is greater than mine but that's just your ego talking as usual. And I am not complaining, I am simply stating my thoughts on Lightning being overpowered, because quite frankly, that's what I think. There's a lot of evidence to 'prove' this. AND for the love of god Max, it is not my damn fault that you can't see the counter arguments. If you choose to not read or comprehend any of my posts I'm not going to go and baby sit you by pointing every damn little **** I say and explaining every single word in vivid detail.

 

So to really get a clear picture of OJP one should play only at your server? m'kay.

 

Lets not start insulting each other now. I like you have an opinion about this subject that I would like to defend. Like it or not I have a lot of hours put into OJP and the biggest part of them were put into testing the saber system. There are still a lot of quirks to be dealt with but lightning being too powerful is just not one of them.

 

Sorry, I'm either dumb or blind, could you please write them in your next post so that I could better explain and backup my opinion? Thank you.

No need to be patronizing or insulting. When you post an opinion it should be clear as to the extent that everyone understands it and can act and comment about it. If you choose not to explain your opinion I for one will not deal with it seriously.

[JackBaldy]

So to really get a clear picture of OJP one should play only at your server? m'kay.

 

Putting words into my mouth. I never said that. I was simply stating that I play at my server because you assumed I play at Hocks which has the force regen time to 350 but my server does not.

 

Lets not start insulting each other now. I like you have an opinion about this subject that I would like to defend. Like it or not I have a lot of hours put into OJP and the biggest part of them were put into testing the saber system. There are still a lot of quirks to be dealt with but lightning being too powerful is just not one of them.

 

So yes, you're the only one here who has put hours upon hours testing the saber system? Your ego never fails to amaze me.

 

Sorry, I'm either dumb or blind, could you please write them in your next post so that I could better explain and backup my opinion? Thank you. No need to be patronizing or insulting. When you post an opinion it should be clear as to the extent that everyone understands it and can act and comment about it. If you choose not to explain your opinion I for one will not deal with it seriously.

How is it not clear when I post? Are you too damn stubborn to see them? I'm posting it quite clearly, but you're just being stubborn which is getting on my damn nerves at this point.

 

I have already stated why I think Lightning is overpowered and why I think Grip is underpowered in comparison. I'm simply not just saying, 'Lightning is overpowered and Grip is underpowered, have a nice day.' I'm giving you facts and details as to WHY I think it is overpowered. Do you want me to bullet them for you? Do you want me to read them to you?

 

*Lightning's force cost to activate is extremely lower than Grip's force cost.

 

*Lightning can reduce the opponents DP, Grip cannot.

 

*Lightning has an effect on the opponent whether or not they are vulnerable to force. That affect being forcing a block, Grip does not. This can be used to the extent of a very easy defense button so to speak.

 

*Lightning can easily knock down an opponent who is force vulnerable at the activation cost of 2-3, Grip cannot and has a much higher activation cost. It basically does the same as Pull/Push would do to a saberist at a much lower cost.

 

*A full burst of Lightning 3 while in melee can completely remove an opponents DP (Speaking about 100 DP), Grip cannot affect DP.

 

*Lightning can be used to more effect and is more efficient in terms of double teaming. 2 Lightning 3 users and you probably won't see the light of day. Same cannot be said about Grip.

 

Should I go on? Open your damn eyes Max, seriously.

[Maxstate]

Putting words into my mouth. I never said that. I was simply stating that I play at my server because you assumed I play at Hocks which has the force regen time to 350 but my server does not.

Have you ever played on my server?

 

So yes, you're the only one here who has put hours upon hours testing the saber system? Your ego never fails to amaze me.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm just trying to express that my opinion is as valid as yours, Jacky

 

How is it not clear when I post? Are you too damn stubborn to see them? I'm posting it quite clearly, but you're just being stubborn which is getting on my damn nerves at this point.

Well I can't see any that I haven't already kind of answered or given my opinion about. Maybe I'm just not too observant? What's the big problem in just quoting them quickly man?

 

I have already stated why I think Lightning is overpowered and why I think Grip is underpowered in comparison. I'm simply not just saying, 'Lightning is overpowered and Grip is underpowered, have a nice day.' I'm giving you facts and details as to WHY I think it is overpowered. Do you want me to bullet them for you? Do you want me to read them to you?

And I was giving my opinion on how I don't think Grip is underpowered or Force lightning is overpowered, so what's the huge deal? Am I just not allowed to disagree?

 

*Lightning's force cost to activate is extremely lower than Grip's force cost.

This I'll agree with, however, Grip does not leave you open to any saber attacks or projectiles while Lightning has you in an over ~2 second pause of vulnerability as I've explained.

 

*Lightning can reduce the opponents DP, Grip cannot.

Are you sure about this one?

 

*Lightning has an effect on the opponent whether or not they are vulnerable to force. That affect being forcing a block, Grip does not. This can be used to the extent of a very easy defense button so to speak.

Yes, but it costs Force to use, so essentially you're using the force to defend yourself. Force needs to regenerate so with a proper force regeneration time the Lightning user's parade will be short-lived unless they're really determined for escape.

 

Plus, you fail to remember about the vulnerability that sets in before during and after the lightning.

 

Situation one:

Runner while facing the opponent and using lightning. Opponent blocks lightning with saber, catches up and slashes you while you're vulnerable.

 

Situation two:

Running while facing away from the opponent.

You're vulnerable to his or her force lightning.

 

*Lightning can easily knock down an opponent who is force vulnerable at the activation cost of 2-3, Grip cannot and has a much higher activation cost. It basically does the same as Pull/Push would do to a saberist at a much lower cost.

However Grip does give you the benefit of moving your opponent closer to you, further from you or even down a pit from WHATEVER position you're in. It also allows you to essentially THROW your opponent to wherever you want with a flick of the mouse. In comparison, lightning can either push the opponent away or flick them down to the floor.

 

*A full burst of Lightning 3 while in melee can completely remove an opponents DP (Speaking about 100 DP), Grip cannot affect DP. !

We've gone through this? Grip does not leave you open and has no downsides to trying to use it on an opponent. A full burst of lightning 3 leaves you around 20 or less FP which would make you toast for anything.

 

*Lightning can be used to more effect and is more efficient in terms of double teaming. 2 Lightning 3 users and you probably won't see the light of day. Same cannot be said about Grip.!

What's the situation? 2 v 2? Unarmed melee? Low DP status?

Lightning has the upper hand in a direct attack, grip would be far more suited near pits or ditches or even for a tag team grip-fest.

 

Should I go on? Open your damn eyes Max, seriously.

(marked the arguments that I couldn't find anywhere with a !)

 

Thanks, this makes it much easier. We started off about ripostes and ended up with lightning..

[JackBaldy]

Have you ever played on my server?

 

It's not on the list like mine is. Or like Templars was. Or like Meat Grinder is when it is up.

 

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm just trying to express that my opinion is as valid as yours, Jacky

 

The way you say it comes off as if you're trying to say myself or others have not put a lot of time into the saber system as you have.

 

Well I can't see any that I haven't already kind of answered or given my opinion about. Maybe I'm just not too observant? What's the big problem in just quoting them quickly man?

 

I didn't feel like it.

 

And I was giving my opinion on how I don't think Grip is underpowered or Force lightning is overpowered, so what's the huge deal? Am I just not allowed to disagree?

 

Yes you're allowed to disagree, but don't try to say that my counter arguments aren't there when they clearly are. Don't try to throw my opinion and statements as invalid because you can't see the 'counter arguments' in them.

 

This I'll agree with, however, Grip does not leave you open to any saber attacks or projectiles while Lightning has you in an over ~2 second pause of vulnerability as I've explained.

 

You're open for what, roughly 2 seconds? I have never ever in the many times that I have used Lightning ever been affected by this vulnerability. It might be there, but that doesn't really mean much because it doesn't really do much. Otherwise I'd just been owned the billions and billions of times that I have used Lightning as a defense technique or the billions and billions of times a gunner has used Lightning as a defense technique.

 

Yes, but it costs Force to use, so essentially you're using the force to defend yourself. Force needs to regenerate so with a proper force regeneration time the Lightning user's parade will be short-lived unless they're really determined for escape.

 

Plus, you fail to remember about the vulnerability that sets in before during and after the lightning.

 

Situation one:

Runner while facing the opponent and using lightning. Opponent blocks lightning with saber, catches up and slashes you while you're vulnerable.

 

Situation two:

Running while facing away from the opponent.

You're vulnerable to his or her force lightning.

 

*Situation one has never ever happened to me. You may say that you'd get caught in slash while you're vulnerable but it just doesn't work that way. You lightning, stop their whole offense, and you can go on the offense. Rarely will this so called vulnerability help the opponent to kill you or hurt you.

 

*If I remember correctly, attack fakes use 2 force points right? Lightning uses roughly the same amount, and it grants you to completely negate a strike and go on the offense for cheap hits. Just ask Hocks how I played him with Lightning. Yes, force regeneration time was set at default, so don't come out saying anything about that o.O

 

However Grip does give you the benefit of moving your opponent closer to you, further from you or even down a pit from WHATEVER position you're in. It also allows you to essentially THROW your opponent to wherever you want with a flick of the mouse. In comparison, lightning can either push the opponent away or flick them down to the floor.

 

How does wasting a ton of force for using Grip activation time and having the ability to move a person like you can with Grip actually help you though? You can say for defense, throwing them far away and such so you can regenerate DP, but essentially you are getting less DP in return because of the DP formula. You can say that you can throw people to death, but that only applies to certain maps. Lightning on the other hand has great combat value because essentially you knock the opponent down and hit him for double non parried damage WITHOUT wasting a great deal of force on activation.

 

We've gone through this? Grip does not leave you open and has no downsides to trying to use it on an opponent. A full burst of lightning 3 leaves you around 20 or less FP which would make you toast for anything.

 

A full burst of lightning also leaves the opponent WITH NO DP. And depending on whether or not you have a teammate helping you, either of you can go for the kill. And again, the vulnerability really is not enough to make a difference. For Grip even to work the opponent has to be in a force vulnerable position, Lightning can get you to no DP right from the start.

 

Thanks, this makes it much easier. We started off about ripostes and ended up with lightning..

 

Yes, sorry, now I know you need special treatment because you can't understand or comprehend what I am trying to say when I don't baby sit and bullet everything for you.

[Maxstate]

It's not on the list like mine is. Or like Templars was. Or like Meat Grinder is when it is up.

It's on hamachi, get it at http://www.hamachi.cc and lets have some fun.

 

 

The way you say it comes off as if you're trying to say myself or others have not put a lot of time into the saber system as you have.

Really? I had the same feeling from your post.

 

I didn't feel like it.

Ah now we're getting somewhere.

 

Yes you're allowed to disagree, but don't try to say that my counter arguments aren't there when they clearly are. Don't try to throw my opinion and statements as invalid because you can't see the 'counter arguments' in them.

Well I asked you to post them for but you "didn't feel like it". I try to respect your opinion but I would like to see that behaviour back. It's like my opinion is wrong by default whenever I'm in an argument with you.

Just because our opinions differ doesn't mean we have to start **** like this.

 

You're open for what, roughly 2 seconds? I have never ever in the many times that I have used Lightning ever been affected by this vulnerability. It might be there, but that doesn't really mean much because it doesn't really do much. Otherwise I'd just been owned the billions and billions of times that I have used Lightning as a defense technique or the billions and billions of times a gunner has used Lightning as a defense technique.

On my own server that delay is what I use to get people into a big combo of dodges. I'm fine with gunners using it as a defense because they would have to say in melee, if they used it while shooting and I was in that big of a range I would just use deflect. However gunners should not get lightning 3 by default unless they're carrying a pistol or melee according to bug ticket "Force Denial".

 

*Situation one has never ever happened to me. You may say that you'd get caught in slash while you're vulnerable but it just doesn't work that way. You lightning, stop their whole offense, and you can go on the offense. Rarely will this so called vulnerability help the opponent to kill you or hurt you.

This is what I mean. It hasn't happened to you so it doesn't exist or is of little importance. Okay Jack, whatever you say.

 

*If I remember correctly, attack fakes use 2 force points right? Lightning uses roughly the same amount, and it grants you to completely negate a strike and go on the offense for cheap hits. Just ask Hocks how I played him with Lightning. Yes, force regeneration time was set at default, so don't come out saying anything about that o.O

Well in my game there's an amount of time between lightning strikes, so if you were striking him over and over again to avoid his slashes you would've have to be either using jump or something else to stay away from him for the time that you couldn't use lightning, which is also a 2 or 3 second delay. I've never really had the problem although I can see reasons to up the starting cost.

 

However I really don't want to make powers cost more than they already do in fear of losing them due to lack of usability.

 

How does wasting a ton of force for using Grip activation time and having the ability to move a person like you can with Grip actually help you though? You can say for defense, throwing them far away and such so you can regenerate DP, but essentially you are getting less DP in return because of the DP formula. You can say that you can throw people to death, but that only applies to certain maps. Lightning on the other hand has great combat value because essentially you knock the opponent down and hit him for double non parried damage WITHOUT wasting a great deal of force on activation.

Because as I've explaiend about.. what.. 3 times now? That lightning is not a straightforward and sure hit, with grip you can position your enemy in one place and make certain that he stays in that place for at least 2 seconds without the ability to recharge anything.

 

A full burst of lightning also leaves the opponent WITH NO DP. And depending on whether or not you have a teammate helping you, either of you can go for the kill. And again, the vulnerability really is not enough to make a difference. For Grip even to work the opponent has to be in a force vulnerable position, Lightning can get you to no DP right from the start.

Only if you use both hands from melee mode, which leaves you open to the user's saber, saber throw, guns and Force powers. I don't believe a single handed full burst can take out a user's full amount of DP when they have enough Absorb.

 

To your dual lightning x2 thing: Razor is aiming for movie realism. One burst of lightning 1 was enough to send obi wan flying in episode 2, and in episode 3 the most powerful of duelists was destroyed by a single, weakened lightning 3.

 

Yes, sorry, now I know you need special treatment because you can't understand or comprehend what I am trying to say when I don't baby sit and bullet everything for you.

It's not my opinion, it's yours, if you want me to take it seriously you'll have to present it in a readable and equally serious manner. I think most of your arguments can be found at the end of post 25 which seem as scattered as this thread is now.

 

I'm not going to try and decipher something like that unless I really have too. And for you Jack, I don't want to break a sweat.

[JackBaldy]

It is obvious that you and I will always disagree, to reasons unknown to me. Anyways I don't want to spend any more time going back and forth with you. And why you can't host a regular server boggles my mind. At this point is here-say, and we never play on the same server because your server is secluded to some retarded website or some **** that I have no plans on using.

[JackBaldy]

IRC would be better for this type of on going argument.

[Maxstate]

Well I don't think the problem seems to lie with me by any chance:

http://www.moviebattles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=292436#post292436

 

I'll explain anything else you might want to know via msn, for now I'm taking a break.

[JackBaldy]

Well I don't think the problem seems to lie with me by any chance:

http://www.moviebattles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=292436#post292436

 

I'll explain anything else you might want to know via msn, for now I'm taking a break.

 

I stopped trying to talk to you via MSN because every time I did try you'd go on a raging whine and cry attack and then block me. And of course you're not the only one who disagrees with me, others do as well, but YOU ALWAYS disagree with me. There's a difference.

[madcatmach2]

how on earth did you two post so much in one day O_O

[JackBaldy]

how on earth did you two post so much in one day O_O

 

It was just another day in the world of 'World War 3: Max vs Jack.' This happens almost every time I post. Max sees it, and then suddenly feels the need to start a huge argument. He dislikes me very much for some odd reason o.O

[JRHockney*]

I leave you alone for two seconds and look what happens! LOL! Will you guys please just get it out of your systems this time!! Since I'm busy, let me clear up a few things real quick.

 

350 server setting is no big deal. In fact I think its alot better because it allows players to KIND OF be able to regen when they get low if they do defense right. It sure doesnt help lightning much. 500 makes it a real pain and limits swings too much in my opinion.

 

A full burst of lightning also leaves the opponent WITH NO DP. And depending on whether or not you have a teammate helping you, either of you can go for the kill. And again, the vulnerability really is not enough to make a difference. For Grip even to work the opponent has to be in a force vulnerable position, Lightning can get you to no DP right from the start.

 

Yeah but thats only in melee because of the double DP damage thing....which is about to be changed.

 

Anyways, I'm still not convinced that Grip is as useful as lightning and I still dont think it warrants its cost atm. Maybe 4, 6, 8, but not 8, 8, 8. Maybe if force powers could be used with it more at the same time with it, but otherwise....

 

Well, I'm out of here. Happy Debating guys, just don't reduce yourselfs to flaming or I'll get started deleting posts.

[JackBaldy]

I leave you alone for two seconds and look what happens! LOL! Will you guys please just get it out of your systems this time!! Since I'm busy, let me clear up a few things real quick.

 

350 server setting is no big deal. In fact I think its alot better because it allows players to KIND OF be able to regen when they get low if they do defense right. It sure doesnt help lightning much. 500 makes it a real pain and limits swings too much in my opinion.

 

 

 

Yeah but thats only in melee because of the double DP damage thing....which is about to be changed.

 

Anyways, I'm still not convinced that Grip is as useful as lightning and I still dont think it warrants its cost atm. Maybe 4, 6, 8, but not 8, 8, 8. Maybe if force powers could be used with it more at the same time with it, but otherwise....

 

Well, I'm out of here. Happy Debating guys, just don't reduce yourselfs to flaming or I'll get started deleting posts.

 

I'd rather just keep my posting close to none. It happens every single time I post when Max is around o.O I'll just use the things I think are cheap to piss people off, then maybe it will get changed. That's at least more productive than going back and forth with Max. It also works 99.99 percent of the time o.O

[UDM]

I agree, Grip is not very useful. Maybe as a sort of "finisher" force power, but certainly not the main staple

[Maxstate]

Some new info:

 

-Grip damages HP Directly and cirumvents DP

-Grip immobilizes opponents for 2 seconds completely after you let go

 

 

I will agree that the starting cost for grip is a bit too high though.