Saber styles perks

[JRHockney*]

Hocks, staff is not really Juyo, staff is whatever style the user is using currently, your Niman sounds more like a Djem-So/Shien combo.

Juyo should not be about regenerating FP. If any style should fit that moniker it should be Niman as it's the balanced and force-resistant style.

 

ARRgh, Yeah your right. I read the wrong form! Although the staff only , really appears with Juyo in the movies. combined probably with dunmoc or whatever its called.

 

yeah Razor, what he said. reverse those

[razorace]

You shouldn't be able to get them all? Why not? if they spend the points...

[Maxstate]

Because then we're back at square one. The whole buyable style thing stemmed from the discussion of limiting them to 2 or 3 (mastery) per user unless otherwise bought.

[bjusterbaarlik]

I did a quick mock-up (sorry bjuster, I bastardized your menu pic for expediency):

Do not worry, your punishment will come eventually...

 

Anyway, let me start with the useful and contributing part of my post.

 

I mostly agree with the ideas RazorAce posted, as those seem to be just what we need. I also agree with Max in that we should make the pros and the cons of each style really stand out, so buff the pros and nerf the cons here and there mainly.

 

There are a few things I would like to add:

 

Makashi: I don't know if there should be any additional MP damage added at all. Since this style is about speed, agility, flexibilty and technique, I'd say we'd convert the MP damage to DP damage. Makashi is one of the best styles to use against other lightsaberists, but should be next to useless against blasters. So, as an added con, I would suggest perhaps 150% DP usage when deflecting blaster bolts.

 

Soresu: This ultimate defensive style should be the opposite of Makashi when it comes to fighting enemies with guns. Perhaps 50% DP usage when deflecting blaster bolts and a higher chance (75%, opposed to 50%) of deflecting it to where your crosshair aims to when using manual deflection.

 

Djem-So: I am not to keen on this style, but I find it weird that this one actually has an increased deflection probability in RazorAce's list instead of Soresu. Also, the lack of mobility should make a Jedi/Sith using this style walk a tad bit slower than usual and it should probably have an increased FP cost for doing acrobatic moves.

 

Furthermore, I agree with Max again on the fact that you should not be able to get them all. I think you should be able to get Shii-Cho and 2 other styles. A nice idea might be to make one new (read: any) style available with a 40 or 50 experience point threshold. So, at the beginning, one might only be able to learn Shii-Cho and one or two more styles, while later, when passing the 50 XP mark, the player can buy an additional style. Note that 50 is just a number, you could even make it 100 if you want.

[TheShaman]

Soresu is defensive against blasters, which means it focuses on keeping your self alive, not on killing the opponents, whereas Shien/Djem-so focuses on killing your opponent (gunner), that's why Soresu shouldn't be more accurate, but should cost less DP to deflect, and Djem-so be more accurate, but usual price.

[Maxstate]

Soresu is defensive against blasters, which means it focuses on keeping your self alive, not on killing the opponents, whereas Shien/Djem-so focuses on killing your opponent (gunner), that's why Soresu shouldn't be more accurate, but should cost less DP to deflect, and Djem-so be more accurate, but usual price.

Indeed, Soresu can take a shi'iteload of blasterfire and deflect it all away easily - just like saber attacks. However Djem-so/Shien can probably take less consecutively while being able to reflect most of them back at the opponent with the means of killing them.

[TheShaman]

RazorAce, what do you mean with "Lower FP usage" for Makashi and Soresu?

And do you mean Juyo should have no extra FP cost for attack fakes? (like dual now)

[Tanqexe]

A lot of the recent suggestions are variations on what I've already suggested in the 3rd post of this thread - buffing/nerfing style strengths/weaknesses, making some styles more expensive on a tiered system, etc.

 

Maybe we should just hold a poll, seems like they're very much in fashion these days

[razorace]

I don't think we should restrict the number of allowed styles. If someone wants to be a blade master, that's fine with me.

 

TheShaman, maybe Lower FP usage should mean the blocking shouldn't cost FP to use. For Makashi, this might mean lower FP for swings as well. And yes, I'm guessing that attack fakes should be free.

[TheShaman]

But blocking doesn't take FP, unless you are fighting a Djem-so user...

And swings cost 1 FP... making it less is hard.

What about making Djem-so drain 2 FP per swing (since it costs 2 FP to attack)

and make Soresu and Makashi only lose 1 FP when blocking Djem-so?

 

Also, if I understood what you meant, you want Shii-cho to give MP to the enemy, instead of Makashi?

[bjusterbaarlik]

I think it would be better if Djem-So attacks do MP damage to the enemy if they are unparried. Makashi should then be doing (additional) MP damage to the enemy if they succesfully parry an enemy attack.

[TheShaman]

No Djem-so should not give MP, I disagree, Djem so tires the opponent, draining FP is the best for it. Makashi shouldn't have very high DP damage, but maybe MP damage (I also thought about giving MP damage to Juyo before, but since it already has high DP damage, it's a bad idea), and what about Shii-cho? I think I've heard Razor talk about some MP damage caused by Shii-cho. Waiting for response...

[razorace]

But blocking doesn't take FP, unless you are fighting a Djem-so user...

And swings cost 1 FP... making it less is hard.

What about making Djem-so drain 2 FP per swing (since it costs 2 FP to attack)

and make Soresu and Makashi only lose 1 FP when blocking Djem-so?

 

Also, if I understood what you meant, you want Shii-cho to give MP to the enemy, instead of Makashi?

 

Well, the problem I see with this is that every player has 100 FP, so having equal FP drain for block/attack doesn't help you very much. Maybe we should leave it at higher DP drain and leave it at that.

 

And yes, I'm suggesting that Shii-Cho should add MP because it's specifically designed to attempt to disarm your oppenent.

[Maxstate]

 

And yes, I'm suggesting that Shii-Cho should add MP because it's specifically designed to attempt to disarm your oppenent.

That's Makashi

 

Maybe we should lose the names and just use the Form names?

That also reinforces the idea of using a form and creating your own style to it.

[madcatmach2]

i prefure the names as with FMIII i would forget what style went with what # and it got kinda confusing

[razorace]

That's Makashi

 

Maybe we should lose the names and just use the Form names?

That also reinforces the idea of using a form and creating your own style to it.

I think style names are easier to remember than a number.

 

And yes, I'm actually talking about Shii-Cho.

[JRHockney*]

I think style names are easier to remember than a number.

 

And yes, I'm actually talking about Shii-Cho.

 

Oh, Wookipidia, I see where your going with this. Fine with me. However, I do still think you should make a Niman and ataru out of single staff and single dual. it should probably be as follows:

 

Niman - award FP and MP points (5 or 10) for doing special things like kick knockdowns, conversion disarms and MP maxouts OR just make it have have slightly faster MP regen and FP regen. Since this is a balanced form and there is no good style for earning back some FP or MP with your ideas, I think this is a fair idea. This would be its only perks.

 

Ataru (single dual) - No or less FP cost for backflips, cartwheels and arials (yellow DFAs). Sightly stronger swings since its a power/speed style. If possible, give this version of dual single saber block anims. Higher point cost

 

Heres my ideas for staff and duel again:

 

Staff - No saberlocks on you unless you have critical DP or high MP. No back extra back damage. less attack damage. Running hits on you do less DP damage (maybe x 1.5). 2 FP to attack (maybe, I remember the last time we made it cost more, it made it useless). Costs more. Kicks cost no or little FP or can parry while kicking. Maybe Juyo as prerequisite (since staff really is juyo anyways)

 

Dual - More attack damage. greater MP cost for getting parried and all unparried attacks against you do 1 mp (or more with makashi) Faster or no parry recovery time. less DP for deflection. Higher cost. Always have one saber when disarmed. Maybe Niman as prerequisite since the seven forms thing says more people learn that first.

 

Finally, I just had an idea for force rage- - Speed up attacks a bit, higher DP damage for both them and you (since your defense suffers), 20 fp cost to start and 2 or 3 FP for each swing. Also, because Juyo is also Vaapad, Maybe make it so that a juyo person fighting a force rager moves at the same speed, or if thats too hard, make parries and attack parries cause the force rager to have longer transitions and longer slowbounces.

[Maxstate]

I think style names are easier to remember than a number.

 

And yes, I'm actually talking about Shii-Cho.

If you mean:

 

One of the marks of contact, sun djem, was a goal of early Form I duelists, as disarming or destroying the opponents' weapons could ensure victory without causing injury, which was always a Jedi objective.

 

Is followed directly by:

 

Form I, like its succeeding forms, included the following basic techniques and concepts:

 

attack, a set of attacks aimed at different body zones

parry, a set of blocks to thwart any attack in the specified body zones

body target zones (1 - head, 2 - left arm, 3 - right arm, 4 - back, 5 - left leg, 6 - right leg)

 

Which means that it wasn't actually meant as a perk or main goal of the skill more than it was meant as training to attack more specific places on a dueler's body.

[TheShaman]

Oh dear, why no FP drain? I found that idea very cool for Djem-so... :S

And yes, I'm for removing the names, and just displaying :

I

II

III

IV

V

VI? (If only...)

VII

Dual

Staff

[bjusterbaarlik]

Please, keep the style names, I don't want to go back to the stone age again with "strong style", "fast style" etc.

[TheShaman]

It's not about that, instead of displaying a name, which is sometimes wrong, it displays the form number, nearly the same, except it makes less mistakes.

[Tanqexe]

I don't think it'd be a good idea to have Shii-Cho cash in on MP. For one thing, the article states that Shii-Cho doesn't offer many techniques in dueling against lightsabers, and it's not really a saber form that has particular strength against saber duelists. I still contend that Makashi is more suitable to having attacks that do MP damage because it's bred for lightsaber dueling, and MP has become a really big factor in lightsaber duels. Shii-Cho's the foundation form and easiest to purchase, so it really shouldn't have perks that are as powerful as cashing in on mishaps.

 

The perks need to supplement and boost the combat philosophies associated with each form so that someone who fights with a particular philosophy can prefer to choose to use that form because it suits his style of play. With increased cost the forms should also have a greater gap between strengths and weaknesses, i.e. most expensive styles should have great strengths at the cost of some significant weaknesses, leaving it up to the player to use skill to cover for those weaknesses in a fight.

 

*(On a side note, maybe we should get rid of Saber Defense altogether and make those bonuses implicit with a saber form)*

 

The numbers next to the form names refer to the order of how much styles will cost (1 being lowest). Other than base damage, the other perks increase with level.

 

#1 Shii-Cho

 

Philosophy: Foundation form, no-nonsense emphasis on basics, short on exotic techniques.

 

• 14 DP damage (decent offense)
  
• MP regen (solid foundation of footwork)
  
• Deflection rate and coverage improvement per level (i.e. like the current Saber Defense) (decent defense)
  

 

Pros: You get to buy all the basic necessities of saber combat at cheap point cost, get nice defense against multiple enemies with increasing levels. Analogous to buying pistol for gunners. Plus 14 DP damage per strike is a pretty decent basic attack damage especially considering the ability to combo well in this style.

Cons: Nothing remarkably exotic to counter more expensive styles.

 

Note: Shii-Cho is the basic of the basic, really shouldn't give it great defense or offensive measures otherwise there'd be no need to specialize in other styles

 

#5 Makashi

 

Philosophy: Dueling style, passive-aggressive emphasis on parries and setups, uses speed and precision to catch single opponents off-guard.

 

• 13 DP damage (one-handed, not too powerful, but its speed and finesse will make up for it)
  
• Significant DP cost to deflect bolts. 150% (perhaps even 175%) DP cost seems pretty good.
  
• Attacks do MP damage if unparried.
  
• Ripostes (and maybe parries) do slight DP damage at level 2 and level 3, maybe at the cost of 1 extra FP (passive aggressive)
  
• Successful attack fakes prevent defender from getting their usual MP regen - reduction depends on level; cash in on enemy MP level after lock at level 3
  

 

Pros: With it being a MP-dealing monster, it'll be a devastating style against saberists. This may make dueling against multiple saberists easier as well, since it can cash in on mishap well.

Cons: Significant DP cost to deflection means that against rapid-fire weapons a Makashi user will have to be careful. The low DP damage also means that in terms of brute force damage it won't be able to keep up with harder hitting styles. The skill cost will ensure that you're going to be dedicating yourself to saber-saber combat if you intend on maxing the levels on this, but the perks will be well worth it.

 

#2 Soresu

 

Philosophy: Defense style, extreme passive emphasis on blaster deflection and saber blocks for survival, patiently waits until enemy presents an opening to exploit.

 

• 12 DP damage
  
• Increased deflection rate and coverage per level(a step above that of Shii-Cho)
  
• Decreased deflect/parry costs with level (better defense technique)
  
• Slight DP regain when at critical DP, increase per level
  
• Increased % DP damage on enemies experiencing mishap (exploiting openings)
  

Pros: With increasing level you can remain comfortably on the defensive. When you cash in one someone's mishap, you have the opportunity to land some devastating blows.

Cons: Abysmal attack damage normally, you'll be depending on using your parries to survive and counting on your damage bonuses when someone is in mishap.

 

#2 Ataru

 

Philosophy: Acrobatic style, aggressive emphasis on using rotational momentum to deliver powerful strikes; acrobatics are meant to be the defense but also leaves one vulnerable to blaster attacks.

 

Not done yet

 

#3 Djem-So

 

Philosophy: Bulldozing style, extreme aggressive emphasis on strong attacks and blaster reflection.

 

Not done yet

 

Niman: Moderation style, takes a little bit of everything, and I don't know if this is really a valid style to be on its own.

 

Not done yet

 

#4 Dual

 

Not done yet

 

#4 Staff

 

Not done yet

 

#5 Juyo: Unpredictable style, uses very open, kinetic attacks that lie somewhere between Ataru and Djem-So.

 

Not done yet

 

Gotta get to work early, will fill this stuff out later.

[Yango]

Dont you think that apart damage perks, the styles should have some more differences? They all feel quite same.

As for example, Juyo is told to be unpredictable, so I'd add the unpredictability factor to it. I thought about changing feints (aka attack fakes) so they can be initiated at _any_ moment of the attack or a fake, and instead of a slower, more powerful swings they'd be faster and, well, unpredictable.

Same goes for Makashi. It is told to be precise and elegant, it looks and feels.. well.. imo it looks terribly and feels sloppy. And I, personally, really hate it's stance.

Etc etc.

[bjusterbaarlik]

That is some very nice stuff there and it reflects the real (movie) styles very well.

 

Perhaps, for Soresu, a decrease in the boltblockdelay might be in order so you can deflect more bolts in a shorter time. The opposite should then be applied to Makashi, to make it stand out as a dueling style which is useless versus blasters etc.

 

I will be anticipating the full post with all the perks in them.

[Maxstate]

really hate it's stance.

Working on it.