Why is gameplay not canon?

[Vaelastraz]

Snd I thought only a Sith deals in Absolutes, Sith or Yoda.

 

No everbody deals in absolutes apparently. The quote "only Sith deal in Absolutes" is quite silly actually.

 

@Masgrtgr

What you are saying is right. Jedi can be killed.

Unfortunately gameplay doesn't feature things like "they ganged up on them" "it wasn't a fair fight". Atton may know a ton of techniques to kill Jedi. Fine. He doesn't use them in the game though. They're not in the gameplay.

 

Using gameplay, Bralo can defeat a weakly skilled PC equipped with a lightsaber with bare hands. Wonderful isn't it?

[Ecthelion]

No everbody deals in absolutes apparently. The quote "only Sith deal in Absolutes" is quite silly actually.

Yeah - even true relativists believe in the absolute that relativism is correct. If they believe absolutism could be correct, then relativism would be impossible, thus invalidating their beliefs.

 

Oh great - now I'm stuck in an endless loop again. It's a good thing I'm not some A.I. entity from Star Trek, or I would have self-destructed by now.

[SilentScope001]

Yeah - even true relativists believe in the absolute that relativism is correct. If they believe absolutism could be correct, then relativism would be impossible, thus invalidating their beliefs.

 

Being somewhat of a Ethical Relativist/Skeptic, I do think this is a bit inaccurate, to say the least.

 

Actually, I personally believe that there is no way to prove anything that is absolute. Call it a moral absolute, and yes, I know it is a moral absolute, meaning I doubt this statement as well. It is possible that there can be a moral aboslute, but to be fair, I don't think it is possible to access it, so there is no use worrying about it.

 

Hey, at least it's better than being a Sith or a Jedi screaming, "I'm right, you're wrong....*rawrs*!"

 

Everyone believes. Even the Skeptic believes that there is no way to access truth. But is belief a bad thing?

 

Unfortunately gameplay doesn't feature things like "they ganged up on them" "it wasn't a fair fight". Atton may know a ton of techniques to kill Jedi. Fine. He doesn't use them in the game though. They're not in the gameplay.

 

On Normal and Hard, my party of 2 Jedi (Kreia and Exile) and Bao-Dur got ganged up by a Twi'lek girl, her droids, and a lot of mines on the Telos Surface. After being weakened by the mercs, Kreia and Exile bit the dust, and Bao-Dur fought a losing battle between the Twi'lek droid before falling as well.

 

These situations does happen in the gameplay. Just very rarely and only for very stupid people who don't min-max very well (like me).

[Ecthelion]

Being somewhat of a Ethical Relativist/Skeptic, I do think this is a bit inaccurate, to say the least.

 

Actually, I personally believe that there is no way to prove anything that is absolute. Call it a moral absolute, and yes, I know it is a moral absolute, meaning I doubt this statement as well. It is possible that there can be a moral aboslute, but to be fair, I don't think it is possible to access it, so there is no use worrying about it.

 

Hey, at least it's better than being a Sith or a Jedi screaming, "I'm right, you're wrong....*rawrs*!"

 

Everyone believes. Even the Skeptic believes that there is no way to access truth. But is belief a bad thing?

I'm a skeptic myself, so you're preaching to the choir. But isn't what you said the same as what I did? You said skeptics believe truth cannot be accessed. Isn't that an absolute?

 

These situations does happen in the gameplay. Just very rarely and only for very stupid people who don't min-max very well (like me).

I wouldn't say you're stupid because you don't min-max well. I try not to powergame, and I don't consider myself stupid.

[Rockstar]

So it poils down to: Light Side - With Us or Against Us.

 

Snd I thought only a Sith deals in Absolutes, Sith or Yoda.

 

 

Yes, a Jedi does not deal in absolutes. What I mean is that for somebody to be force sensitive and attuned to the light side then realistically they would already be half way up that light/dark bar. Same with a Sith. Jedi and Sith are such different ways of thinking that you cannot have an intermedium.

 

Darth Traya was the only exemption but she was still a Sithlord and if you analyse most of her advice then you can see that most of it is dark side/Sith ideals...

 

A Jedi would not ever put themself before another. A true and powerful Sith would never pass an opportunity to further their power. Most situations there is a clear light and dark path and a Jedi does not go "I'll save these people and then kill the next guy down the road" and a sith does not go "I will kill this Jedi so I can claim these lands and then save a village out of charity." There is no grey Jedi!

[Rockstar]

THE ANSWER

 

To answer the question of this thread in one word: GAMEPLAY

 

Ep 3 the game allowed you to win the battle on Mustafa as Anakin, who after killing Obi-wan, overthrew the empiror and ruled the galaxy.

 

WAIT!! Now this must mean that what happened on Mustafa is all up to my own opinion does it? So because i believe anakin won and it is an open ended game then i can easily say that imo Anakin won.

 

NO i can't! Because the game and film makers said that Anakin won. An official source tells us that Revan was a light man and Exile was a light female. The other options are just there for gameplay variety and replayability!

 

Case closed lol

[PoiuyWired]

Well, ITs hard to canonize the details, and rather pointless I tik.

 

Does it matter if Kyle killl Desann with a falling pillar, or with a saber attack? The idea is, Kyle kick his raptor butt.

Does it Matter if Exile lotoed a medpack or a relic sword from a bunch of sith troopers? Idea is that Exile defeated some sith troopers.

Does it matter that there is no washroom on the Ebon Hawk so Bastila must have been stinking really bad without showers? I mean, do you REALLY want to know?

 

I mean, the details are lost to time, and probably to the characters themselves. Just ask luke how many limbs he have chopped off thruout the years, and I don't thinke even he can remember.

[JawaJoey]

Wow, this thread got deep. I believe in relativism myself, and I'm a skeptic. In a given situation, you can determine what is best (from a certain perspective) without needing to look to any absolutes. So why rely on them? But I don't see how this is related to the topic at hand anyways.

 

About gray Jedi, there's a difference between a real gray Jedi and a gameplay gray Jedi. Jolee was "gray," but was it because he alternated between good and evil acts? Not at all. He never did anything evil. He was a good man. But he did not believe or obey the restrictions of the Jedi Order. The reason he's not light sided is because he's not a true Jedi, not because he's evil at all. Tying that to gameplay, his broader view supposedly allowed him to access both sides of the force easily without fear, making him "gray" from the perspective of gameplay and FP costs.

 

But really, Jolee had none of the dark side in him. There's a distinction between what a real gray Jedi is and what gray Jedi means in terms of gameplay in KOTOR.

[Ecthelion]

I think this "gray Jedi" stuff is just an excuse to let good people use dark side powers. I wish the Extended Universe had never gone there, and it's one of the many reasons I try to ignore the EU whenever possible. I realize they were trying to make things more interesting and more realistic, but that's not what Star Wars is. Star Wars is about an epic struggle between good and evil. Someone might flicker between the two for a while, but you can't sit on the fence forever. The movies have shown us that everyone ends up on one side or the other in the end. The idea that someone who doesn't accept Jedi teachings and still be good makes sense. But it's a little too convenient that someone in such a position gets to use dark powers without risking falling to the dark side. Jedi teachings aren't what prevents the use of dark side powers - it's the lightside itself.

[Rockstar]

But he did not believe or obey the restrictions of the Jedi Order. The reason he's not light sided is because he's not a true Jedi, not because he's evil at all. ... Jolee had none of the dark side in him...

 

I agree with you here. Jolee was not a true Jedi as such because he did not follow the order or the true teachings. As you said though, he did not have an ounce of darkness within him and followed the choices of the light.

 

My conclusion is that, in effect, Jolee is a LIGHT Jedi but is not a light Jedi of the Order. Note the difference? I think that the limited light/dark slider in KOTOR being in the grey was the only way to show this, but even still, he was a light jedi, pure and true. It's our choices that make us who we are and never showed any sign of anything other than truth and goodness.

 

 

I think this "gray Jedi" stuff is just an excuse to let good people use dark side powers. ... Someone might flicker between the two for a while, but you can't sit on the fence forever. .

 

agreed. I think the grey Jedi concept is just really fan fiction chucked into the games for gameplay variety. Even Kyle Katarn, the most grey jedi ever, is a goody light two shoes. In JO he KNOWS how to use lightning after falling to the darkness, but it is YOUR choice whether you even use it once? Seeing him AI controlled in JA, he ONLY uses light powers.

 

As you said, you cannot stay on the fence forever... we all know the pull of the darkside cannot be resisted when sitting next to the seduction so closely

[Ecthelion]

My conclusion is that, in effect, Jolee is a LIGHT Jedi but is not a light Jedi of the Order. Note the difference? I think that the limited light/dark slider in KOTOR being in the grey was the only way to show this, but even still, he was a light jedi, pure and true. It's our choices that make us who we are and never showed any sign of anything other than truth and goodness.

I don't think they had to put Jolee in the middle of the slider to show he wasn't a Jedi of the Order, and here's why. It's a spoiler for anyone who hasn't played through KOTOR2, so I'll tag it.

 

In KOTOR2, you can get pretty far into the Light side of the scale before you meet Atris. Another example is KOTOR. Before you recruit Jolee, you have to deal with the Czerka Tach poachers. If you save the Tachs, you get Light side points (if I'm not mistaken). This is quite simply a "good deed" and not a specific directive of the Jedi Order. While it's certainly the choice the Order would pursue, it could have been done by anyone who was good, or anyone concerned with the protection of life.

 

It seems obvious that the Light/Dark slider in KOTOR and KOTOR2 has nothing to do with the Jedi Order, but simply visually shows the impact of doing "good deeds". Therefore, I think KOTOR could have showed Jolee at the top end of the slider without compromising his non-Order status. Maybe his name should have been "Jolee the Ex-Jedi" or his Class could have been "Ex-Jedi Consular".

 

agreed. I think the grey Jedi concept is just really fan fiction chucked into the games for gameplay variety.

Wait - I thought the Gray Jedi concept was something from the novels. None of the games explicitly mention Gray Jedi, do they? I think that's just been retconned as the out-of-game explanation.

[John Galt]

There were a set of "Gray Jedi Robes" in KotOR II, I think.

[Marauder's Fury]

Even Kyle Katarn, the most grey jedi ever, is a goody light two shoes. In JO he KNOWS how to use lightning after falling to the darkness, but it is YOUR choice whether you even use it once? Seeing him AI controlled in JA, he ONLY uses light powers.

Lately I've decided to give the Academy another go and I'm on Vjun now. Kyle's frying Stormtrooper asses pretty handsomely. Jedi Master difficulty and those Dark Jedi seem to be no match for his lightning.

 

Though, since he has common sense -something we don't get to see often in the SW universe-, he mostly keeps his base emotions in check, rather than giving in.

 

By the way, why is Lightning a dark side power? OK, I'll save this one for a future rant-on topic.

[Rockstar]

IIt seems obvious that the Light/Dark slider in KOTOR and KOTOR2 has nothing to do with the Jedi Order, but simply visually shows the impact of doing "good deeds".

 

I agree with you here mate. But it seems that Jolee still breaks the rules of the slider? He treats others with respect, rescues his shipmates as opposed to just saving himself aboard the the Sith vessel (if you chose him), and most importantly, attacks Revan if he choses to dark side in order to save the galaxy from a great evil. A dark sider would join Revan in order to learn from his power to further their own.

 

Jolee is a definate light sider and should at least be somewhat in the shaded blue area... i just don't understand why he is not?

 

He is an Ex-Jedi, but his powers are equal to all other 'full' jedi in your group?

 

I'm confused but i think it's pretty safe to say he is a light jedi at heart, even if not in reality.

 

 

By the way, why is Lightning a dark side power? OK, I'll save this one for a future rant-on topic.

 

I've opened a new thread

[JawaJoey]

The *real* reason Jolee is gray is so that light side players have the option to have Jedi that use Dark Side powers somehow in their party without any penalties. And he's justified as gray as opposed to light or dark by saying that he doesn't see things in light and dark. Obviously, that doesn't make him a bad person. His actions showed that he should have been light, just like the player's good actions make them light.

 

So realistically he should have been light, but this is a game we're talking about.