God, man, and the nature of sin

[True_Avery]

Yeah, those cockroaches sure do build great cities. Oh, wait. The last time a cockroach used a tool, I had duct taped it to one.

Yeah, and it is silly how they don't wage war with eachother, destroy the environment, etc. I mean, c'mon. Without intelligent minds they must be worth less than dirt huh?

 

I mean, it can't read, talk, wonder about God, drive a mustang, get elected to bug president, or even sin. Especially without it's head.....

Sounds like a simple life that fits into the natural balance of nature. But, seeing as we see on completely different sides of the board I can tell that there is little use debating, unless you would like to.

 

God made the cockroaches. You should at least respect his creations, now shouldn't you?

Thank you.

 

The thing is, the more I read into this thread the more I have less of a feeling of a loving god, and more of a feeling of a power hungry monarchy. God says what to say, says what to do, and if we disobey god or reject god we get the guillotine. Look at Adam and Eve. Disobeyed him once, get all of humanity cursed. Either god is a king playing with toys, or god is an abusive parent who beats their child instead of trying to learn why they do what they do.

 

Threads like this really do deeply disturb me. They give me an outlook on God I am terrified of, and most of all they make me understand why the religious "Extremists" kill over who is right and who is wrong. People like this, and many people in this thread, who believe 100% that they are right and you are wrong make me afraid to walk outside sometimes.

 

Also, I am yet to have someone give me a good explaination as to why humans are better than other animals.

[Sabretooth]

Yeah, those cockroaches sure do build great cities. Oh, wait. The last time a cockroach used a tool, I had duct taped it to one.

If my memory of reading the Bible is right, God created animals to serve mankind. So, cockroaches were made to be duct-taped to things? Interesting.

[Jvstice]

 

Also, I am yet to have someone give me a good explaination as to why humans are better than other animals.

 

Basic compassion and ability to feel pain (physical, mental, or emotional). It's why people get less upset about experiments on fish than they do dogs or cats. It's why many suggest that the great apes should be extended some human rights.

 

It's a matter of degree. Our minds make us capable of greater self awareness. Doesn't necessarily change behavior to make us more altruistic, but it opens up the possibility of being reasonable through communication to a greater degree as a way of solving problems rather than violence. And while it's true no known animal other than the genus Pans and the Homo sapiens have the brain power for as sustained an effort as war or genocide, no other species can consider the good of another species (or their own) in a systematic way either.

[Rev7]

God made the cockroaches. You should at least respect his creations, now shouldn't you?

I think that we all, to some extent, should respect God's creations. Here is a quote from the Bible...

God said, let Us [ Father, Son and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all the Earth, and over everything that creeps upon the Earth.

 

It is your choice to believe that or not. I , at the moment, have nothing more to say.

[PoiuyWired]

So, technically we don not have to respect the un-[tamed] beasts, and alien from space.

[Jvstice]

I've never seen anyone add the spurious word "tamed" to the translation of that passage from genesis. As a matter of fact, most people that I've heard that have been to any seminary anywhere where they learned biblical translation teach the exact opposite, that we are responsible for all of them, not just the tamed ones.

 

It hasn't really made a difference that I've seen whether the person's biases are Catholic, Baptist or Presbyterian at least.

[Rev7]

I guess I should have said that I got that quote from the Amplified Bible, and that is a translation.

 

So, technically we don not have to respect the un-[tamed] beasts, and alien from space

I think that you are misinterpreting the quote. Untamed animals are generally not affected by what we humans do, they have a mind of their own, and generally have no human interaction. The "alien from space" part makes no sense to me. The quote says we have authority over the Earth, and every animal, not aliens. Whether there are aliens, is a contriversial topic. I would have to see one right in front of me in order to believe that there are such things, but that is for another thread.

[Jvstice]

Untamed animals are generally not affected by what we humans do, they have a mind of their own, and generally have no human interaction.

 

So humans didn't affect the passenger pigeon, the dodo bird, the spotted owl, the U.S. bald eagle, the sabre - toothed tiger, and the wooly mammoth in a significant way? I think you're being guided by some extreme logical fallacies. All of them other than the spotted owl and the bald eagle were wild animals (that remained wild animals) that were made extinct by humans.

[Rev7]

Remember I said "generally"?? In most cases, is what I meant.

[Jvstice]

We're extinguishing far more species than that. That is an utter betrayal of the concept of stewardship as portrayed in genesis, and that is the truth.

[Corinthian]

So what? The dinosaurs went extinct without the intervention of humans. Everything in the natural realm has a beginning and an end.

[Jvstice]

Things are going extinct at a rate unheard of since then though, and it should concern you for that reason if nothing else.

[Rev7]

Everything in the natural realm has a beginning and an end.

I totally agree. Everything is starting to deterierate in the natural realm, and will only get worse, and that is a fact. Think about it,for example there is a massive famine in Africa. We can try to aid the Africans, but we cannot prevent the famine and the drought. There are so many things that are going wrong in the world that we cannot stop. Thing will only get worse...

[mur'phon]

Thing will only get worse...

 

Then lets hope those bad things start happening to the western world so that people get of their asses and start doing something about it.

[Ray Jones]

I think a drought in the western world will not necessarily bring people off their butts and make them help other people who are rather far away.

[Jvstice]

True. Most people would say that charity starts at home, the world over.

[RobQel-Droma]

God made the cockroaches. You should at least respect his creations, now shouldn't you?

 

Wait... all of a sudden you're worried about respecting God's creation?

 

Yeah, and it is silly how they don't wage war with eachother, destroy the environment, etc. I mean, c'mon. Without intelligent minds they must be worth less than dirt huh?

 

Using that same logic, I could say that a table could possible be worth more than humans, since they do neither of the things you mentioned.....

 

Neither can cockroaches affect the world in a good way - except for possible filling the food chain. And if they are in too great or too little numbers, it could go out of whack. Simply being powerless to do evil is a pretty weak argument to say that they are better. They are also powerless to do any kind of good.

 

So yes, they are sentient beings and God's creation, but if it was not for the latter ( and their place in the environment), you could say that they would be just a hair above dirt. They're just there.

 

Sounds like a simple life that fits into the natural balance of nature.

 

That is what they are, yes.

 

Thank you.

 

Again, I wonder about this: two people who have previously brought up the possibility of God being a immoral tyrant - or that He was unworthy to be followed - are now trying to tell believers to respect His creation.

 

Hmmm.....

 

The thing is, the more I read into this thread the more I have less of a feeling of a loving god, and more of a feeling of a power hungry monarchy. God says what to say, says what to do, and if we disobey god or reject god we get the guillotine.

 

Where do you lose the loving God? Oh, and please.... the "guillotine"? You know, throughout our lives, for however many decades we have, we always have the choice to follow God. In fact, no matter what we do, we can always come back and have God except it. Like I said, we have decades to do this, and plenty of encouragement. I really don't know where you get the idea of God just waiting to zap people who stray out of line....

 

Look at Adam and Eve. Disobeyed him once, get all of humanity cursed.

 

One rule. One. And they broke it. Had everything they could possibly want, and they couldn't keep one rule. In fact, breaking it, in clear violation of God, knowing that God would punish them. Sounds like a problem on the part of humanity.

 

Which, you know, they still lived. It was harder for them, but God didn't kill them and send them to hell. In fact, as far as we know, they followed Godafter that, I think.

 

Not only that, we have thousands, possible millions of times to make a mistake. He doesn't punish you for those, does He? I don't see why you're complaining.

 

Either god is a king playing with toys, or god is an abusive parent who beats their child instead of trying to learn why they do what they do.

 

Oh, yes, He does beat you for your mistakes, doesn't He. (ignore the sarcasm )

 

And wait, what did you say? Learning why we do what they do?

 

What?

 

He's God! G-O-D God!

 

He doesn't need to learn, He knows everything, He's God! That's the definition of omniscient!

 

Threads like this really do deeply disturb me. They give me an outlook on God I am terrified of, and most of all they make me understand why the religious "Extremists" kill over who is right and who is wrong.

 

Funny, with the exception of the Muslim extremists, I don't recall hearing people murder others in America over religion that much.

 

People like this, and many people in this thread, who believe 100% that they are right and you are wrong make me afraid to walk outside sometimes.

 

Well, of course I believe I am 100% right, in the major points. I mean, this is kind of the point of all life, so I am very definite in what I believe.

 

Oh, and.... come on, man. You can cut the exaggeration. For some reason I doubt you are hiding in your house, afraid of the Catholics, Christians, and whatever else waiting outside with shotguns to murder you because you don't believe what they do. Either you are way exaggerating (sp?) just to make your point, or you're just paranoid without reason. I think it's probably the first.

 

Also, I am yet to have someone give me a good explaination as to why humans are better than other animals.

 

Um.

 

God says we are. Either than that, which I know you'll blow off, I think it's pretty self-evident when you compare a human being to a cockroach.....

 

If my memory of reading the Bible is right, God created animals to serve mankind. So, cockroaches were made to be duct-taped to things? Interesting.

 

Is this some kind of sad attempt to make Corinthian look like a hypocrite, or what?

[Ray Jones]

Wait... all of a sudden you're worried about respecting God's creation?

No, I just think that someone who believes in god and that he created everything should also respect those creations. Shouldn't he?

 

Neither can cockroaches affect the world in a good way - except for possible filling the food chain.

Well, basically, isn't that what life is about, to spread, and being a part of the food chain? And we were also just a part of it for a long time. Besides that, cockroaches are scavangers, what qualifies them as "affecting the world in a good way".

 

And if they are in too great or too little numbers, it could go out of whack. Simply being powerless to do evil is a pretty weak argument to say that they are better. They are also powerless to do any kind of good.

Who are you to decide what cockroaches can do good? I they had no place in the scheme of life, and had not the power to survive, they surely wouldn't exist anymore. Like countless other species.

 

So yes, they are sentient beings and God's creation, but if it was not for the latter ( and their place in the environment), you could say that they would be just a hair above dirt. They're just there.

Yes, for 250 million years already. Lifeforms who are "just a hair above dirt" don't survive on earth longer than mankind ever will.

 

Again, I wonder about this: two people who have previously brought up the possibility of God being a immoral tyrant - or that He was unworthy to be followed - are now trying to tell believers to respect His creation.

 

Hmmm.....

And I wonder again, isn't that logical? I mean, this is not about god being a tyrant or not. It's about you respecting what you believe to be his work. I respect cockroaches as lifeforms, regardless if they are god created or not, shouldn't someone who think they are respect them too? And basically I would reckon that duct taping cockroaches and playing it down by labeling them "useless creatures" shows lack of respect. Yes, there are many of them and they have no place in our houses, and are not necessarily of any use to us humans, but that doesn't render them useless in the big picture. like I said before, they are scavangers, which is pretty much an important task, out there, in the wild.

[Corinthian]

Funny, with the exception of the Muslim extremists, I don't recall hearing people murder others in America over religion that much.

 

$10 says they use the Crusades to prove you wrong somehow. Or at least try to.

[Ray Jones]

The crusades took place in America?

[Jvstice]

No

[Corinthian]

No, but any time you point out the absence of Christian extremist lunatics the Crusades get dragged in.

[Ray Jones]

I don't recall hearing people murder others in America over religion that much.

 

$10 says they use the Crusades to prove you wrong somehow. Or at least try to.

 

Ah. So these ten bucks are eeeaasy money, I guess. XD

[Corinthian]

Right. Of course, now that it's been thoroughly mentioned, my odds are a lot higher. Then again, they're SpaceBucks, so I don't have too much to worry about.

[Jvstice]

Of course the US did come close to militarily invading Salt Lake City, after a lot of the first mormons set out west into the frontier in order to have freedom from persecution due to their poligamy.