The Use of Deadly Force

[Ray Jones]

shooting once or twice =/= inability. It doesn't take much to learn how to point, steady yourself, and shoot.

Exactly. That is why cops or military folks train regularly - because it is more than enough to shoot a weapon twice. Especially in situations full hectic and stress.

 

point is, a wounding shot is not as surefire a way to stop a criminal as a fatal one. Thats why cops aren't told to shoot to wound.

Cops are told to place lethal shots as *last* attempt to solve a situation.

 

I've yet to see a gun raining program where you shoot at other people. Shooting at targets all day does not prepare you for shooting another human.

Who said gun training prepares you to shoot at humans?

 

And what is this special training? "duck and roll"? "aim better"?

No. That would be simple gun training. How about "how do I calm critical situations without using a weapon"?

 

it is our duty to protect ourselves. If we are capable of doing that, we should. The idea that only cops are allowed to protect is dumb.

Who said only cops are allowed to protect?

[mimartin]

A Harris County grand jury issued a no-bill to Joe Horn today. Just proves to me Texas is a state where you don’t have to listen to police instructions and life is cheap in this state. Even though I figured that was the case, I was still naïve enough to hope that was not the case.

 

Houston Chronicle

 

Pasadena – The Citizen

 

MyFox Houston

[JediAthos]

I can't honestly say I feel any sympathy toward the "victims" in this case. If you ask me they got what they deserved for trying to rob someone's home.

 

I'm afraid I'm with the grand jury on this one.

[jonathan7]

I can't honestly say I feel any sympathy toward the "victims" in this case. If you ask me they got what they deserved for trying to rob someone's home.

 

The loss of any human life is a tragedy - I don't think you will find humans anywhere else in the entire universe. To be sentient as humans are is as far as we know extremely unique - indeed currently we could be the only high sentient life-form in the entire universe.

 

I'm afraid I'm with the grand jury on this one.

 

So the cost of a human life to you is $1,000?

 

Justice is not anger, justice is not revenge, justice is in proportion to the crime committed; what occurred - these men should have been sent to prison for what they did; the did not deserve capital punishment.

 

As such I think the man who did killed them both should be sent to prison; he killed two men over the most trivial of things.

[Totenkopf]

Would it be fair to say that you would like to see the portions of any law change where a homeowner is authorized to use deadly force on criminals that tresspass on his property, even if no one has been harmed (other than the perps, of course)? Even so much as to incarcerate the homeowner should he kill the intruders? (realize that I know that wasn't the case here)

[jonathan7]

Would it be fair to say that you would like to see the portions of any law change where a homeowner is authorized to use deadly force on criminals that tresspass on his property, even if no one has been harmed (other than the perps, of course)? Even so much as to incarcerate the homeowner should he kill the intruders? (realize that I know that wasn't the case here)

 

I think deadly force should only be allowed if intruders are presenting a clear and present danger. That's not to say an individual shouldn't be allowed to try and stop intruders stealing - and if they then become violent deadly force can be used, but I think warnings etc should be given, and if people are making an escape let the authorities deal with them.

 

It just to me seems such a petty thing to kill someone over; I certainly wouldn't kill someone for stealing from our house - I would use force however if they tryed to harm our animals or family - but even then it would take a lot for me even consider using force let alone deadly force.

 

My 2 cents.

[mimartin]

Don’t really see a reason why anyone would feel sympathy for the criminals in this case. They took put themselves in the position to be harmed by taking someone else’s property.

 

Still I disagree with the grand jury because its decision tells the general public is that is alright to take the law in your own hands. Does this mean it is acceptable for me to shot the next drunk driver I see driving down the road? After all, that drunk driver is a danger to not only cause property damage but bodily injuries. Wait, sorry…this no-bill also make it clear that bodily injury and human life are not important. So only the property damage matters. This no bill also makes it clear that following police authority does not matter in Texas, so I guess that means that the next time I come to a traffic stop I can ignore that too.

 

I actually have sympathy for Joe Horn. He disregarded the police dispatcher killing two men and now he must live the rest of his life with the consequences of those actions. He just watched too many John Wayne movies during his life and wanted to be a cowboy.

 

My only real complaint about all of this is that human life (any human life) is more valuable than a television. When our system of government makes life cheap then why should the citizens feel any different? This decision cheapens all life.

Would it be fair to say that you would like to see the portions of any law change where a homeowner is authorized to use deadly force on criminals that tresspass on his property, even if no one has been harmed (other than the perps, of course)?

It would make murder all the more easier to get away with. Someone ticks you off just invite them over for a cup of tea. Funny I guess this is already true in Texas except you can invite them over to the neighbors house here.

[jonathan7]

Don’t really see a reason why anyone would feel sympathy for the criminals in this case. They took put themselves in the position to be harmed by taking someone else’s property.

 

Do we know why they were stealing? Whatever the reason I still feel sympathy for them... Perhaps they didn't have enough money to live, and were stealing so they could live. Or perhaps they were greedy and seeking the cheap and quick fix; greed can never be filled and were seeking satisfaction in a place it could not be found. Whatever their reason I still think they should be pitied. Though perhaps also given a Darwin award for thinking it a good idea to steal in Texas - a clear non-survival instinct.

 

Still I disagree with the grand jury because its decision tells the general public is that is alright to take the law in your own hands. Does this mean it is acceptable for me to shot the next drunk driver I see driving down the road? After all, that drunk driver is a danger to not only cause property damage but bodily injuries. Wait, sorry…this no-bill also make it clear that bodily injury and human life are not important. So only the property damage matters. This no bill also makes it clear that following police authority does not matter in Texas, so I guess that means that the next time I come to a traffic stop I can ignore that too.

 

I actually have sympathy for Joe Horn. He disregarded the police dispatcher killing two men and now he must live the rest of his life with the consequences of those actions. He just watched too many John Wayne movies during his life and wanted to be a cowboy.

 

My only real complaint about all of this is that human life (any human life) is more valuable than a television. When our system of government makes life cheap then why should the citizens feel any different? This decision cheapens all life. It would make murder all the more easier to get away with. Someone ticks you off just invite them over for a cup of tea. Funny I guess this is already true in Texas except you can invite them over to the neighbors house here.

 

Agreed.

[Totenkopf]

In that case, I'd like to invite you to my neighbor's July 4th party. Starts @ 2 AM.

Seriously, though, I agree that you don't want people shooting others willy-nilly. To bad his aim wasn't more steady. Perhaps he could have shot them in the legs (as he intended to shoot them anyway) were that the case. In the case of the perps, I feel nothing sympathetic for them either. Ashame they had to learn a terminal lesson about stealing from others.

 

@Jon7--not sure that their reason is relevant. Makes it more tragic, perhaps, but does not excuse it more than if it were simple greed.

[mimartin]

Do we know why they were stealing?

I may have came off a bit callous in my comments. Let me somewhat rephrase. I don’t feel sorry for people that intentionally put themselves in harm’s way. I don’t feel sorry for people that steal from other no matter the reason. Even if the criminals needs the stolen goods to eat, how do we know the owner of the property did not need the items just as much?

 

I do feel sympathy for the murdered criminals’ families, especially the children. However, I still do not feel that way toward the criminals since their action lead to demise. They are also dead and I don’t believe my sympathy will do them any good anyways. Sympathy is for the living.

[jonathan7]

@Jon7--not sure that their reason is relevant. Makes it more tragic, perhaps, but does not excuse it more than if it were simple greed.

 

I may have came off a bit callous in my comments. Let me somewhat rephrase. I don’t feel sorry for people that intentionally put themselves in harm’s way. I don’t feel sorry for people that steal from other no matter the reason. Even if the criminals need the stolen goods to eat, how do we know the owner of the property did not need the items just as much?

 

If they were stealing for food, it is an act of desperation, and as such thinks casts them in a different light; I'm not saying I agree with their action, but I could understand for example a parent not wanting to see their children starve. If it is the above then its an act of desperation, if someone else needs the food or not doesn't I think come into the mind of the person stealing.

 

I do feel sympathy for the murdered criminals’ families, especially the children. However, I still do not feel that way toward the criminals since their action lead to demise. They are also dead and I don’t believe my sympathy will do them any good anyways. Sympathy is for the living.

 

Indeed the familes do have my sympathy. I do also think every deatha tragedy, now they are dead there is nothing that can be done for them. I'm not going to loose sleep over it, but do feel compassion for them.

[Rev7]

A Harris County grand jury issued a no-bill to Joe Horn today. Just proves to me Texas is a state where you don’t have to listen to police instructions and life is cheap in this state. Even though I figured that was the case, I was still naïve enough to hope that was not the case.

<links snipped>

Very interesting. I hope that they made the right decision. :/

I think deadly force should only be allowed if intruders are presenting a clear and present danger. That's not to say an individual shouldn't be allowed to try and stop intruders stealing - and if they then become violent deadly force can be used, but I think warnings etc should be given, and if people are making an escape let the authorities deal with them.

I 100% agree with that. I think that Joe Horn should have listened to the police on this matter. I don't think that he should have killed these men because they posed no threat to him. He should have let the police deal with it. That, to me, would have been the right thing to do.

It just to me seems such a petty thing to kill someone over; I certainly wouldn't kill someone for stealing from our house - I would use force however if they tryed to harm our animals or family - but even then it would take a lot for me even consider using force let alone deadly force.

I also agree with you. They only stole (tried to steal) material things. Life would have still gone on.

Indeed the familes do have my sympathy. I do also think every death tragedy, now they are dead there is nothing that can be done for them. I'm not going to loose sleep over it, but do feel compassion for them.

Yes, death is a tragedy. No matter whos it is, it hurts. Life is a precious thing...

[Totenkopf]

If they were stealing for food, it is an act of desperation, and as such thinks casts them in a different light; I'm not saying I agree with their action, but I could understand for example a parent not wanting to see their children starve. If it is the above then its an act of desperation, if someone else needs the food or not doesn't I think come into the mind of the person stealing.

 

While I can understand that people do act out of desperation, I don't think they even care to look for the alternative. The act of breaking into someon'es home is almost always premeditated. If they are in dire straits, why have they not tried to find another alternative? Frankly, if they were stealing food.....it could have been the munchies.

[JediAthos]

I would wager that they didn't look at the alternatives because they were already in the United States illegally. One of them even had a prior conviction for which he was deported in '99 which means that not only had he already committed previous crimes, but committed another one just by being in the country.

[Totenkopf]

Well, I was speaking somewhat generally to J7's point about the apparent motivation of seemingly desperate people who will steal "in the name of the children". I would wager that your assessment is correct. They were criminals, at least one with priors over here. They paid the ultimate price for their callous, selfish stupidity. Looks like stupidity is a crime punishable by death afterall.