What CRPGs do you recommend?

[Aeroldoth]

I saw the other thread on top 10, but it includes many non-crpg games. I was wondering what games others recommend.

 

I'm heavily into rpg, and I prefer fantasy, not so much modern or sci-fi. I've played the Baldur's Gate series and LOVED Morrowind. Gothic 1 and 2 were quite good also, as well as the Might and Magic series(3-6, 7 and 8 kinda, 9 sucked). I've also played some of the Ultimas, I thought 8 was great, but never tried 9. I played NWN1, gameplay felt choppy and piecemeal. About the only non-fantasy games I've played are Kotor 1 and Deus Ex 1, both pretty decent (I really liked DEs storyline, but had issues with some other aspects of it).

 

I far prefer story and plot over action. Mindless killing makes me sleepy, and I have never played Doom or Quake. Convoluted plots, subterfuge, great dialogue, grey or black morality, controversial issues, a very mature approach to sex, drugs, society, and life are all things that interest me. As an intellectual I prefer games that make you think, feel, consider. As a gamer, I'm a low-power purist, and prefer a real gaming challenge, not something where I get three artifacts and 1.2 million gold for killing an orc with my slippers.

 

I have considered TES 4, Fable, Gothic 3, and Deus Ex 2, but have heard a lot of negative views on them. I've never tried any Final Fantasy; they strike me as not being very "deep", more for children than adults, but I could well be wrong.

 

So, that's a little bit about me... any suggestions for CRPGs, fantasy or otherwise, old or new, that you think were awesome?

[Corinthian]

Planescape: Torment is good for what you're looking for. Other good ones are Fallout & Fallout II, The Exile/Avernum series by Spiderweb Software, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, and Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

[Achilles]

I far prefer story and plot over action. Mindless killing makes me sleepy, and I have never played Doom or Quake. Convoluted plots, subterfuge, great dialogue, grey or black morality, controversial issues, a very mature approach to sex, drugs, society, and life are all things that interest me. As an intellectual I prefer games that make you think, feel, consider. As a gamer, I'm a low-power purist, and prefer a real gaming challenge, not something where I get three artifacts and 1.2 million gold for killing an orc with my slippers.

Off the top of my head:

 

Oblivion

NWN2

SW:KotOR II - TSL

 

If pressed, I'd probably put NWN2 at the top of the list and Oblivion at the bottom based on the criteria that you provided.

 

...and Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

Another good one. Probably between TSL and Oblivion, toward the bottom.

[mur'phon]

Vampire the Masquerade is my all time favorite, just remember to get the unofical patches, they add a lot. And remember to play trough it "as yourself" the first time, makes it more interesting.

You might also want to check out "the Witcher", from what I hear it's even greyer than Vampire.

[Aeroldoth]

Planescape: Torment is good for what you're looking for. Other good ones are Fallout & Fallout II, The Exile/Avernum series by Spiderweb Software, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, and Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

 

I've heard good things about Torment but put it off. I may pick it up now.

 

I'm surprised you mentioned the Exile series, I didn't think anyone else had ever heard of them! The Avernum trilogy, along with Nethergate, are on my HD as we speak.

 

I've also heard good and bad about Arcanum, Fallout, and Bloodlines. Could you elaborate on what you like about them?

 

Off the top of my head:

 

Oblivion

NWN2

SW:KotOR II - TSL

 

What appeals to you about these? I've heard Oblivion is a greatly simplified, dumbed-down Morrowind. Does NWN2 offer much improvement over NWN1? Other posters here constantly hint that K2 doesn't compare to K1. What are your thoughts?

 

You might also want to check out "the Witcher"' date=' from what I hear it's even greyer than Vampire.[/quote']

 

I read the thread here on it. It does sound quite interesting, especially the grey morality and "decisions having consequences" aspects, but it has one major irritant for me. One of the reasons I love RPGs, and to a lesser extant CRPGs, is the open-endedness of them, the freedom to be who you want and do what you want. When a CRPG restricts who you are or what you can do, IMO, it suffers. Personally, I'm a bit tired of having my character chosen for me, enough so that I may not get the game because of it.

[Inyri]

Oblivion is hardly story-driven, if that's what you're looking for - it *has* a story... it's just not driving. It really plays more like a hack'n'slash, in my experience. With th Final Fantasy games, it greatly depends on which you play in terms of how deep the story is (the language in some of them is very crass, so I wouldn't say they're for children -- despite the playerbase). They're great as storyline RPGs, but they're very guided so if you're looking for something more independent you may want to look elsewhere.

[mur'phon]

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines

Pros:

-Great grey story

-Different kinds of vampire types, some alter the way you play completely

-You can side with one of three factions, each good/evil in their own way,

you can also screw them and do it alone if you want

-Briliant quests, from seting up hidden cameras to blowing an old train station

-Good voice acting

-Most places feel like a bad neighbourhood, eks: prostitutes and beggars are everywhere

-Not the easiest game around

-Believable characters

-Magnums, mallets and magic, all in the same game

-Different ways to play, stealth, magic, shooting, armed/unarmed melee

 

cons:

-Lots of loading

-Lots of bugs unless you get the unofical patch

-Combat isn't the best, though not excactly bad

-You are a vampire so you need to feed, some hate it, others don't

[Aeroldoth]

Oblivion is hardly story-driven, if that's what you're looking for - it *has* a story... it's just not driving. It really plays more like a hack'n'slash, in my experience. With th Final Fantasy games, it greatly depends on which you play in terms of how deep the story is (the language in some of them is very crass, so I wouldn't say they're for children -- despite the playerbase). They're great as storyline RPGs, but they're very guided so if you're looking for something more independent you may want to look elsewhere.

 

Was there anything stimulating, novel, intriguing about Oblivion's story for you? I too heard it was a big chunk of hack with a sprinkling of plot. I also heard that hacking was repetitive as the foes constantly auto-scaled to your level.

 

I can stomach railroading if the story is good enough. Which FFs would you say are compelling? Crass language doesn't bother me at all; I find it refreshing. Is there however anything mature about them besides the language?

[Inyri]

No, I found the story incredibly boring. By the time I quit playing, my sole enjoyment came from head shotting deer with my bow & arrow.

 

For the FFs, I'd say 8, 9 (a little weird, to be honest), 10, and 12 are pretty decent. Whether or not you like 7 is very dependent on many factors (I'm not going to go there =p). All of them have a certain amount of independence, but 12 seems to have a lot more than the others (hours and hours of side quests). Pretty decent plot, to boot.

[jonathan7]

Other posters here constantly hint that K2 doesn't compare to K1. What are your thoughts?

 

Ha! In terms of your criteria TSL is far superior to K1, TSL is my all time favourite game, K1 is traditional Star Wars and black and white, TSL is far more complex and much more a scale of grey. It has easily the best charachter in Star Wars history; Kreia. For your criteria I would have to reccomend TSL; try it out, ignore what alot of the fanboys say!

[Achilles]

What appeals to you about these? I've heard Oblivion is a greatly simplified, dumbed-down Morrowind.

I don't think it's fair to compare the two. Both were good in their own way. Morrowind had a better story. Oblivion had better gameplay (IMO).

 

Does NWN2 offer much improvement over NWN1?

Can't say as I never played more than a few hours of NWN1. I will tell you that of the games I listed, NWN2 had the most nuanced story. Moral ambiguity, depth of character, etc, etc.

 

Other posters here constantly hint that K2 doesn't compare to K1. What are your thoughts?

My opinion is that TSL was a much better game than K1. I played K1 dozens of times but have found it difficult to play again since TSL came out. No doubt that TSL is far from perfect, but K1's story seems sickly-sweet by comparison.

 

I read the thread here on it. It does sound quite interesting, especially the grey morality and "decisions having consequences" aspects, but it has one major irritant for me. One of the reasons I love RPGs, and to a lesser extant CRPGs, is the open-endedness of them, the freedom to be who you want and do what you want. When a CRPG restricts who you are or what you can do, IMO, it suffers. Personally, I'm a bit tired of having my character chosen for me, enough so that I may not get the game because of it.

No doubt that The Witcher is "grayer" than any game I've ever played, but I don't think I could successfully argue that it made for a better story. The fact that you're a professional monster slayer should tell you something about the amount of "hack/slash" to expect (even though I thought the fighting system was innovative and interesting). It does have some mature themes when it comes to sex, drug and alcohol use, racism, etc, but again weighing the criteria that you provided, I didn't feel comfortable adding to my list of recommendations.

[Lance Monance]

You could give the Gothic 2 addon a try, it is one of the best RPGs in my opinion.

 

You might also want to get a FF game. I've never played one myself as western RPGs are more of my taste, but there's an incredibly large community behind FF and lots of those games received top ratings therefore I think it is safe to assume they're good.

 

@ Achilles: Considering the games you played it rather surprises me that you label NWN2 as the RPG with the most nuanced story, depth of characters and so on..

How does it compare to Kotor and TSL in those areas?

[Corinthian]

I have to disagree with TSL being a superior game. Maybe if it had been properly finished, it would be, but it wasn't, so it isn't.

 

I like Arcanum because of the feel of it. It's got a fantastic setting, with the rivalry between Magic and Technology. There's something about turning a Dwarven Gunfighter to stone with your magic.

 

Fallout, likewise. It's got a great feel, with the post-apocalyptic wastelands. Plus it's well written and has an amazing storyline.

[Aeroldoth]

Whether or not you like 7 is very dependent on many factors (I'm not going to go there =p).

 

Please, do! Is it controversial or potentially offensive? That makes it sound more interesting.

 

K1 is traditional Star Wars and black and white, TSL is far more complex and much more a scale of grey.

 

It does sound better. Why then do you suppose people dislike it?

 

I like Arcanum because of the feel of it. It's got a fantastic setting, with the rivalry between Magic and Technology. There's something about turning a Dwarven Gunfighter to stone with your magic.

 

Fallout, likewise. It's got a great feel, with the post-apocalyptic wastelands. Plus it's well written and has an amazing storyline.

 

I've heard nothing but raves about Fallout's story, and some good things about Arcanum. I've held off though as I have this view that games with guns are more about explosions and killing than subtlety or nuance... could be my own bias though. I did try looking for Arcanum a few years ago, but gave up quickly.

[Inyri]

Please, do! Is it controversial or potentially offensive? That makes it sound more interesting.

Yes, but if we start in on that the rest of your thread is forfeit.

[mimartin]

Other posters here constantly hint that K2 doesn't compare to K1. What are your thoughts?[/Quote] K1 is the more polished typical Star Wars game. K2 is darker and I feel you have more control over just who your PC is which is why I play RPGs. I actually like K2 more.

 

I enjoyed Oblivion and it is one of my favorite games. However, it is not a very deep game, but the variety of side quest is what keeps me playing it. The NPC interaction is my one true complaint about Oblivion it is sorely lacking IMO.

 

I did not like Fable and have yet to complete NWN2 as I do not like the controls or the view set up. I will one day when I have the time give it another shot.

 

It does sound better. Why then do you suppose people dislike it?

Glitches, cut content, lack of love interest and Revan takes a backseat to the PC. Mainly it is not you typical Star Wars good verses evil story we are all so use to. I will not say it is the better game, but I like the TSL better.

[jonathan7]

It does sound better. Why then do you suppose people dislike it?

 

I think people dislike it/don't like as much as KoTOR because its not typical Star Wars; people like heros to be simple; where as the Exile (pc) is quite complex. Good and evil is much more blurred and Kreia makes some wonderful points which really blur the lines. For me TSL is much more realistic than KotOR, its gritty and mature. Secondary to that is the cut content and bugs; although Team-Gizka will fix that once the restoration project is released. Despite its flaws I would highly reccomend TSL; indeeds given your criteria I'm sure you will prefer it to KotOR.

[Achilles]

@ Achilles: Considering the games you played it rather surprises me that you label NWN2 as the RPG with the most nuanced story, depth of characters and so on..

How does it compare to Kotor and TSL in those areas?

Well, TSL and NWN2 both came from the same developer, so...

 

K1 was my favorite game for a long, long time, but TSL blew it out of the water, IMHO. Aspects of NWN2 knocked my socks off in ways that TSL didn't though. I don't want to get into detail, because it wouldn't take long to get deep in to spoiler territory. I'll simply repeat that in my opinion NWN2 had the best story of the games that I listed.

 

It does sound better. Why then do you suppose people dislike it?

Because the story was neither easy nor spoon-fed. You had to play through good/evil, male/female to get all the bits and even then you still had to figure out on your own what happened. Some people enjoyed being entrusted to have enough intelligence to figure it out for themselves. Other people didn't.

 

My biggest (and pretty much only) complaint about TSL (now that many of the bugged quests have been patched via mods) is the fact that you're railroaded down the last 20% of the game.

 

I think people dislike it/don't like as much as KoTOR because its not typical Star Wars; people like heros to be simple; where as the Exile (pc) is quite complex. Good and evil is much more blurred and Kreia makes some wonderful points which really blur the lines. For me TSL is much more realistic than KotOR, its gritty and mature.

QFE.

 

There are certain decisions that Kriea will rip into you for, regardless of which decision you make. Make the light side choice, Kreia will pose a perfectly reasonable ethical argument for why you should have made the dark side choice. Make the dark side choice and Kreia will pose a perfectly reasonable ethical argument for why you should have made the light side choice.

[Corinthian]

Basically, she's incredibly obnoxious and makes no real sense. She basically exists to lambaste you for the purpose of lambasting you, then being a complete hypocrite. Apparently, that makes her deep. I don't really get the appeal.

[Arátoeldar]

1. Planescape: Torment

2. Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

3. Gothic 2 & Night of the Raven aka Gold

4. The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall

5. Fallout 2

6. Neverwinter Nights 2 & Mask of the Betrayer (EP more than makes up for C+ plot of OC)

7. The Witcher

8. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

9. Betrayal at Krondor

10. Temple of Elemental Evil (official patch and Circle of 8 patches)

 

Honorable Mentions

Arx Fatalis

Europa 1400: The Guild, The Guild 2 (mixture of RPG and middle-ages life simulation)

Fallout

Might and Magic I-VI

The Elder Scrolls: Arena http://www.elderscrolls.com/tenth_anniv/tenth_anniv-arena.htm

Ultima IV-VIII, Ultima Underworld

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines

Vampire: the Masquerade: Redemption

Wizardry 1- 8

[jonathan7]

Because the story was neither easy nor spoon-fed. You had to play through good/evil, male/female to get all the bits and even then you still had to figure out on your own what happened. Some people enjoyed being entrusted to have enough intelligence to figure it out for themselves. Other people didn't.

 

I've not played NWN2, but I would definatly say the above is also true of TSL.

 

My biggest (and pretty much only) complaint about TSL (now that many of the bugged quests have been patched via mods) is the fact that you're railroaded down the last 20% of the game.

 

Aye, thats its biggest problem, I remember playing Malachor for the first time and reloading it several times assuming there had been some scripting bugs which meant things werent spawning opposed to it actually just not being finished. Personally I blame LA, as I think had the game been finished in my opinion it would have been the best CRPG to date (although I think that anyway)

 

There are certain decisions that Kriea will rip into you for, regardless of which decision you make. Make the light side choice, Kreia will pose a perfectly reasonable ethical argument for why you should have made the dark side choice. Make the dark side choice and Kreia will pose a perfectly reasonable ethical argument for why you should have made the light side choice.

 

As ever my friend, much more eloquently put than me. I love Kreia; shes awesome, its great on Naa Shadaa with that Beggar right at the start that no matter what you do she will tell you off... Hehe. I think she has to be the best computer gaming charachter I've ever come across. On her own she makes TSL a quality game.

[Aeroldoth]

people like heros to be simple; where as the Exile (pc) is quite complex. Good and evil is much more blurred and Kreia makes some wonderful points which really blur the lines. For me TSL is much more realistic than KotOR, its gritty and mature. [...] indeeds given your criteria I'm sure you will prefer it to KotOR.

 

Because the story was neither easy nor spoon-fed. You had to play through good/evil, male/female to get all the bits and even then you still had to figure out on your own what happened. Some people enjoyed being entrusted to have enough intelligence to figure it out for themselves. Other people didn't.

 

Thank you both, you've convinced me! I'm going to get a copy of the game.

 

[game list]

 

Arátoeldar, thank you very much! Tell me, how do you feel Daggerfall and Betrayal at Krondor have aged? Oddly, I've never heard of the Europa games. What is your take on them?

[Sabretooth]

Hmm, okay - haven't read through all the responses, so this is all my own.

 

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines is one decent FPS-RPG hybrid - good story, lots of replayability and Deus Ex-style flexibility. I removed it because I got annoyed with it, personally. Loading was slow and since you have go from one map to the other frequently, that was very very annoying. Also, the gameplay was pretty shallow, IMO. It feels great the first time you play the game. Second time, it gets sort of weary.

 

Invisible War isn't bad in the story department, although it doesn't maintain its predecessor's maturity. IW is extremely replayable, and a sort of different experience overall. It's not extremely bad or unplayable or anything, it just doesn't hold up to Deus Ex, which is main source of criticism. Also, IW almost throws away all of DX's RPG points, like the skill system and the inventory system.

 

Finally, if you haven't already, play Fallout at all costs. Its graphics may appear very jaded and its gameplay may take some time getting used to, but you'll love it in the end. Its the most mature story I've seen in any game, its gameplay suspensefully fun and well, its just an experience overall. Fallout I and II are nearly identical in gameplay structure, so I suggest going with the first.

[Arátoeldar]

Arátoeldar, thank you very much! Tell me, how do you feel Daggerfall and Betrayal at Krondor have aged? Oddly, I've never heard of the Europa games. What is your take on them?

 

While the graphics don't come close to todays games. The gameplay and story in both games more than make up for this. I even have a box specifically for DOS based games with older hardware like the SB 16.

 

The Europa games combination of real life sim and RPG. You can what class you want to be be and what kind of game you want to play. You can play mission mode where you have objective you must meet before you die or you can play "endless game" where create a dynasty through offspring. Some of the offspring are controllable. Some of the micromanagement can get tedious. I'd give the series a B+.

[Aeroldoth]

Wow, many of the older games are ridiculously priced!

 

Planescape: Torment, Daggerfall, Arcanum and Wizardry 8 are all around $50 each. That's quite pricey for old games.

 

EDIT: Arátoeldar, some of the games you list appear twice on listings at Amazon. One version is listed as by Jowood, the other by Aspyr. Is there a difference (in the game) between the two publishers, do you know?