Who was the most powerful sith lord ever?

[Klw]

Since I quoted him in the Windu vs. Sidious thread, here are some more tidbits from Sun Tzu:

 

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Therefore, political conquest is greater than military victory.

 

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness."

No one knew that Sidious was a Sith lord until his moment of glory.

 

"Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate..."

In other words, give the Jedi some troops to command so they won't see Order 66 coming.

 

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."

Exactly how Palpatine defeated Mace Windu and Starkiller. Basically everything he does is deception. The destruction of the Republic, the conversion of Darth Vader, even the Battle of Endor are all textbook cases of his utter genius in action.

 

"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."

Palpatine was doing most of this in the public eye, but no one knew what he had in mind until he actually did it.

 

No Sith lord exemplifies these quotes better than Sidious.

 

As for the mind trick, I don't think you can mind trick thousands of senators all at once (or even individually because you just wouldn't have the time) and even if you could, you definitely couldn't mind trick the Jedi Council. Yet both the Senate and the Jedi Council willingly went along with Palpatine's plan.

[SmootheOperator]

 

As for the mind trick, I don't think you can mind trick thousands of senators all at once (or even individually because you just wouldn't have the time) and even if you could, you definitely couldn't mind trick the Jedi Council. Yet both the Senate and the Jedi Council willingly went along with Palpatine's plan.

 

He didn't need to trick an entire room of senators to have things done. he only needed one, maybe 2, a very small but loud group at the most.

 

Just think of the American tea partiers. They are not smart, they have very little in the way of fact or truth, but they are yelling at everyone, and for some reason people pay attention to them.

 

Make a few dedicated disciples to Sidious, and set them loose in a room full of career politicians, and they will do the work for you. deals that need to be made, bribes the need to be offered, grease the political wheels so that Sidious doesn't have to. Plus, if anyone of them gets caught, Sidious can say he knew noting about it, and only that politician goes down, not the Chancellor.

[xantose]

Darth revan

[Al_Ciao]

As I see it, there are several things to consider when picking who you think the most powerful Force-user could be, Sith or otherwise. Many of these have been mentioned in this discussion already.

 

1. Indirect Power - i.e. Military/economic/political. I'd say Revan takes top spot here. Charismatic and brilliant, he's basically Thrawn with Force powers. Palpatine's a close second, because of his skillful political manipulations, plus the war machine of the Empire he ruled. After that comes Darth Krayt, simply because of the Imperial military he controlled. Next comes Lord Hoth, because he built a massive Jedi army to take on the Brotherhood of Darkness and led them to victory.

 

2. Skill with the Force - How many things can they actually do? I'd have to say Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. He had training from several sects: Jedi, Sith, Aing-Tii, Fallanassi, Theran Listeners, etc., and demonstrated several amazing abilities, including long-distance eavesdropping, timedrifting, amazing precognition, Sith battle meditation, Force obscurity, etc. Of course, after he became a Sith, he grew stupid and stopped using a lot of those powers.

 

3. Potential Force Power - How much potential does he have, for example, midi-chlorians? Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, of course, has the highest midi-chlorian count ever, and Lucas has stated Luke has the same amount. Of course, Kyp Durron was demonstrated as having more potential than Leia (and presumably Luke her twin) in "Jedi Search", but I'm not sure how valid that is, since Luke and Anakin were supposed to, in Lucas canon, be the most potent. Also, Jaina and Jacen have at least Leia/Luke's potential, and Zekk and Anakin Solo have been demonstrated as having more potential than the twins. So it's kinda murky. Yoda, of course, is pretty high on the list, too.

 

4. Demonstrated Force Power - How BIG are his powers? Bastila was so good at Battle Meditation she outstripped her masters and could lead entire fleets to victory. Darth Nihilus was effectively an immortal spirit in the shell of his armor and was able to wipe out all life on a planet of Force-sensitives which included a council of nearly all the Jedi Masters in the galaxy. He was only defeated when the Exile confronted him, whose unique "hole in the Force" status meant there was nothing in her he could absorb. Palpatine in Dark Empire had his Force storms, vast storms of energy (sometimes said to be dark side power, sometimes side to be hyperspatial energies) that effortlessly wiped out star fleets. Darth Plagueis could supposedly create life and make people immortal. Exar Kun survived for 4000 years; the Sith Emperor for half that long at least. Galen Marek telekinetically moved a crashing Star Destroyer. Qui-gon Jinn discovered how to live as a spirit beyond death. Luke Skywalker has the most impressive list of accomplishments far beyond anyone else, however. Look at star wars wikia for it. However, no single one of them outdoes the others in this paragraph.

 

5. Lightsaber Skills - Yoda, Mace Windu, Palpatine, and Luke Skywalker probably head this list. Palpatine was able to pretty effortlessly strike three or four Jedi Masters with his saber, where Mace Windu and Yoda were able to match him. Luke skywalker, in his later years as a Jedi Master, has done some pretty darn impressive things with a lightsaber, particularly if you look at the NJO era and beyond. Also on this list would be Galen Marek, Kyle Katarn, and Darth Revan, though how they compare to the first four I don't know.

 

6. Accomplishments - Power, skill, resources, and such are all fine and dandy, but maybe it's what you actually achieve that matters. Luke Skywalker, Darth Revan, Lord Hoth, Darth Bane, and Darth Sidious shine here. Luke, of course single-handedly rebuilt the Jedi Order and fought off multiple threats to the galaxy. Again, see his list of accomplishments at Wookieepedia. Revan was singlehandedly responsible for unifying the Republic fleet and pwning the Mandalorians. Hoth defeated the Brotherhood of Darkness with an army he raised and led himself. Darth Bane re-established the Sith Order that lasted for a thousand years and succeeded in his stated long-term goal of overthrowing the Jedi and the Republic. Of course, it was Palpatine who actually achieved the goal and ruled over the mightiest war machine in galactic history for two decades; plus, he ruled over the entire galaxy, as opposed to the ancient Sith empire.

 

7. Writer Bias - It must also be taken in consideration that different writers have different views. As far as George Lucas is concerned, no one outstrips Anakin and Luke. Writers such as Dave Wolverton, Tom Veitch, Kevin J. Anderson, and whoever wrote "The Force Unleashed" have the opinion that the Force is just that powerful; it's less the power of the particular person, and more the power of the Force that any Force-user could tap into. Timothy Zahn and Michael Stackpole, on the other hand, consider the Force more subtle.

 

A final note - nearly all the greatest Force powers are always attributed to "ancient" Jedi and Sith. It's never the villain or hero of the day that developed it. Sever Force and Battle Meditation, two of the Jedi Order's greatest tools? In "Golden Age of the Sith" and "The sith War", the earliest recorded uses of those abilities, they are referred to as ancient techniques. The thought bomb? Kaan got it from Bane who got it from Revan who got it from an unnamed ancient source. Nihilus learned his Force-draining abilities from Kreia, who presented them as an ancient Sith technique. Sith alchemy? Originally developed by the Jedi Exiles who became the Dark Lords of the Sith, who are by and large unnamed and undeveloped. The exceptions are Plagueis (who himself discovered the secret of life) and Palpatine (who himself developed Force storms).

 

So maybe the most powerful Sith are the ones who actually developed these potent, ancient techniques?

 

And of course, if we discount the EU (since many people have issues with the EU, it seems), it'd have to be Palpatine. Yes, even he said that Darth Vader/Anakin could be greater than either him or Yoda, but Vader never achieved that potential. Palpatine, however, took over the galaxy and decimated the Jedi Order right under their noses and defeated Yoda in single combat.

 

And if we include the EU, I would still say Palpatine. He fits most of the criteria I gave above: indirect power, lightsaber skills, demonstrated Force power, original development of powers, actual accomplishments. We have no idea what his midi-chlorian count is, of course, so we can't say how he goes for sheer potential (and in Lucas canon, at least, no one outstrips Anakin and Luke). Also, while he had many arcane Force skills, he never demonstrated the sheer breadth of skills that Jacen did in the Dark Nest trilogy.

 

Also, to address the "Plagueis" issue: yes, a lot of it is speculation based on a couple lines from RotS. But it was stated that he could sustain and create life. Creating life seems impressive - but perhaps this is similar to the Sith alchemy used to create monsters by the ancient EU Sith lords? Or it could be something as amazing as the speculated "virgin conception" of Anakin Skywalker.

 

And for sustaining life - is it possible that's where the technology needed to construct Vader's suit came from? Is it possible that knowledge is partially where Palpatine's knowledge of consciousness transference came from?

 

Finally, I believe the most powerful Sith of all was never a Sith. But if he HAD become a Sith (or darksider in general), he would have taken top spots in all the criteria above.

 

Luke Skywalker.

 

His list of accomplishments, powers, and Force techniques is already impressive. Imagine what would happen if he actually set out to increase his personal power and take control of the galaxy?

 

Bwahahahaha, Darth Lukas.

[Klw]

Impressive assessment Al_Ciao!

 

I agree with your conclusion regarding Palpatine. I would add that he did achieve immortality and that in my view, he would eclipse Revan in the first category of "indirect power" simply because of Order 66, which I think surpasses all political achievements in galactic history. The political posturing and trickery he needed to create the clone army and gather the power to wield it is mind-boggling. He turned the entire galaxy into a giant chess board and played both sides of the game, eventually moving things into a glorious checkmate. He destroyed a political institution that had been operating continuously for twenty-five millenia including during the height of Revan's power. Revan is the Hannibal to Sidious's Odoacer.

 

Do you feel that your argument about Luke's supremacy could be supported without the EU? Star Wars itself is the tragic story of Darth Vader, not Luke. In the grand scheme of the saga, Luke is a supporting character. That being said, I do agree with you that he appears to be the most powerful character in the Star Wars literary universe.

[Al_Ciao]

Thanks for the compliment! I just read through the whole arguments here and tried to put it all in context.

 

As for Revan vs. Sidious in indirect power, you make a valid point. For me it's somewhat murky, but I think we can agree that both were insanely talented in that area.

 

Also, you are right that Star Wars is the tragic story of Darth Vader. If there was no EU, that would still be true. The trouble is the discrepancies between the movies and EU. The idea behind the movies is that Anakin is the Chosen One and he does in fact destroy the Sith. Even Lucas said, IIRC, that yes, Anakin is still the Chosen One despite falling to the dark side.

 

Of course, the EU completely subverts this. I could understand, in the context of the movies, there still being lots of turmoil in the galaxy, what with Imperial remnants and Coruscant still being captured - in essence villains like Zsinj, Isard, and Thrawn - but the EU keeps dishing out more Sith. Heck, Exar Kun was still around when Vader killed Palpatine.

 

So, to directly answer your question: without the EU, no I don't think the supremacy of Luke could be asserted. In some ways, however, Vader's couldn't be definitely asserted, either, given that it falls to Luke to redeem him so that he can fulfill his destiny.

 

However, given that Vader is one of the few characters in all 6 movies and that the movies are undoubtedly his story, then I would have to agree that, without the EU, Vader has the supreme "destiny" or "signficance", whatever that's worth.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that, just because a character is the central figure of a story, does NOT necessarily mean he is the central figure of that whole setting/universe. Darth Vader was the central figure in that era of Star Wars, it could be argued, but others have had equal or greater destinies in other times and places, Revan being the obvious example. (The whole KotOR era practicallly revolves around him, at least after the Sith War of Qel-Droma and Exar Kun.)

 

As far as Lucas (and therefore the movies) is concerned, Anakin is it. The be all end all.

 

As far as the EU, however, that's much murkier, and I stand by my declaration that, in the context of the EU, Luke is both the central figure and the most powerful.

 

I'll add three quick notes to this, because, yes, I AM that long-winded.

 

1) I have to wonder what would have happened, if at that critical moment, Anakin obeyed Mace Windu's directive to stay in the Jedi Temple during his arrest of Palpatine. It's possible Palpatine would have killed Windu (IF the theory that he was only faking weakness in order to manipulate Anakin, is true, which we have no way of knowing one way or the other), but Padme would have lived. Anakin might have gone on to become a Jedi Master (as Obi-Wan hinted earlier in the movie), thought there probably would have some friction between him and the Jedi once his secret family was revealed. Padme I suspect would have gone on to become Chancellor one day, though Bail Organa would undoubtedly be the one to immediately succeed the deposed Palpatine.

 

Anakin Skywalker could have gone on to chair a revived golden age of the Republic and the Jedi Order, more influential and powerful, in time, than Yoda.

 

2) What about The Sky Walker? Not canon, but only hinted at in early scripts of Lucas, this was the first Force user, from whose 12 children came all Force traditions. How powerful or significant (in terms of destiny) would he have been?

 

3) As far as sheer POWER, if anyone had ever controlled the Valley of the Jedi (from Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight), they would have been far and away the most powerful person in the galaxy (universe?). Rahn's spirit mentions things like casually detonating stars across the galaxy with a thought, and other such fun things.

 

4) Okay, I lied when I said three notes, or that they would be quick. But you'll still read, cuz you're as big a Star Wars nerd as I am.

 

One thing that confused me when I was younger was what was originally called the "wall of light" Force power but which has more recently been referred to as "sever Force". Palpatine, in Dark Empire #6, despite his impressive Force storm, is defeated by three powerful Jedi (Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin Solo) creating a "wall of light" around him.

 

But Jerec, in the graphic novel "Jedi Knight" (which novelizes the game Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight), is defeated by ONE Jedi (Kyle Katarn) wrapping him a similar wall of light, despite Jerec's powers (the aforementioned Valley of the Jedi) being so much greater than Palpatine's.

 

Then of course, in the Sith War comic, Exar Kun has to be taken out by thousands of Jedi unleashing a wall of light, despite not showing any powers as impressive as Force storms or that of the Valley as told by Rahn.

 

Silly me, expecting a fictional setting written in by dozens of writers, to be consistent.

[Klw]

I think one of the problems is that the various authors can't help but go bigger and better every time they write a new story. So what Lucas intends to be the most significant war in galactic history becomes a blip in a timeline of egregious and often comically unnecessary carnage and strife. Star Wars becomes no better than a long-running comic strip in which heroes and villains die and rise again at the writer's whim and engage in hundreds of battles, each new one making the rest a little bit cheaper.

 

As for your #1 point, I feel that Palpatine would have killed Windu and found another way to convert Anakin either directly before or directly after executing Order 66. Palpatine has a plan for everything he undertakes. He revealed himself to Anakin on purpose and expected Windu and the other Jedi masters watching the Temple to take the bait. He needed them to attack him to justify Order 66 and needed them to be dead so that the Temple could be taken. Palpatine would not have provoked the duel if there was even the slightest chance that he wouldn't win it. Anakin saving him could have been plan A while him killing the hapless Windu and finding another way to convert Anakin could have been plan B. My guess is that plan B would have involved kidnapping or wounding Padme and using some sort of trick to make it look like the Jedi were responsible so as to push Anakin into the Dark Side. Either way, I do not think that the ultimate outcome of the Windu duel was ever in question.

[Al_Ciao]

Yep, Star Wars EU is basically a giant comic book series. Of course, for me, that's a good thing, because I happen to be one of those people who loves Beyond the Impossible comics and such. I may have the entertainment tastes of an 8 year old but... really, there's no but here.

 

The one thing I'm not crazy about is the inconsistencies. Of course, that's par for the course in DC and Marvel superhero comics as well.

 

As for Palpatine's plans within plans, you are probably right. I just like to imagine what would have happened if Anakin had stayed good and defeated Palpatine.

 

Which might have actually happened anyway; by obeying Mace Windu's orders to stay in the Jedi Temple, Anakin would have faced down his temptation. Of course, we can play hypotheticals all day long, but we can't really know, however many fanfictions may be written.

 

Perhaps, instead of debating who was the most POWERFUL Sith lord ever, we should be discussing who was the COOLEST Sith Lord ever. For me, the choices have to be Revan, Nihilus, and Vader. Bane is right up there, but the other three outstrip him.

 

Revan is just the bomb, for obvious reasons.

 

Nihilus has the whole disembodied spirit thing with the mask and incoherent powerful voice, with a ruined starship that somehow stays afloat.

 

And Vader is the original iconic Sith lord, what with the breathing, the choke, and James Earl Jones' voice.

[Emperordmb]

Here is a list and reasons.

1st Darth Bane- He was freaking powerful and had knowledge from at least 4 legendary sith lords, including Revan.

2nd Darth Plagueis- He could create life, and Sidious had to resort to killing him in his sleep instead of fighting him.

3rd Darth Sidious- He was more powerful than Yoda.

4th Darth Vader- He was 80% as powerful as Sidious.

[Al_Ciao]

I'm curious how you get the figure that Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious?

[SmootheOperator]

I'm curious how you get the figure that Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious?

 

Yeah, I'm curious about that number as well. Are we talking about potential power, or real power? Potential power, Vader would be off the charts, he was THE CHOSEN ONE for christ sakes, but in real power, Vader couldn't really compete. I am not a fan of Sidius, but the power vader possessed at the time of his death was no where near the power sidius had upon his untimely demise.

[Andon Key]

I respect everyone's opinion here, you are well-read, erudite, but you are also wrong... THE MOST POWERFUL sith was Exar Kun.

"Enveloped in the dark side, Kun elevated himself to the stature of a god.", "He enslaved the Massassi."; "As a young Jedi Knight, Kun exhibited a powerful connection to the Force. Through long practice, he had achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat."; "Kun was able to create terrifying creatures twisted by the dark side's influence..."; "One of the Krath's fallen Jedi was Ulic Qel-Droma, whom Kun perceived as the only Force-sensitive tainted by the Sith that was strong enough to challenge him."; "...drained the life-force of almost the entire Massassi race, transcending his own mortal body..."; "However, he was defeated when Nomi Sunrider led thousands of Jedi in the creation of a wall of light; the power of which destroyed the landscape of Yavin 4, and trapped the Dark Lord's spirit within the walls of his temple forever."; "Kun's power in the Force became extraordinary. He had a strong Force sense, the ability of Force Flight, and was capable of emitting Force Blasts from his hands that could crumble stone walls and kill Sithspawn with a single hit."; "The fact that the spirits of the ancient sith lords supported Exar Kun suggest that they did not and perhaps do not support the sith emperor we face today."

So comparing all other girly siths(Palpatine, Bane, Revan...) with Exar Kun is ridiculous. I guess this ends the dispute and controversy. Next time check the sources more careful.

Oh, and by the way why don't you go and fight/kill a lion with a pen instead of a sword? Politic is a twisted game made by the degraded human brain and in the end "caesar" fears the general and his soldiers, they represent the raw power, as it is in the nature.

[Mandalore5]

I'd go for either Revan or Palpatine, but I think Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow should also be taken into consideration as Sith Lords.

[TKA-001]

"Enveloped in the dark side, Kun elevated himself to the stature of a god. He enslaved the Massassi..."

What that actually means in the canon that the primitive Massassi people considered him a god, not that his powers actually fit such a description.

 

As a young Jedi Knight, Kun exhibited a powerful connection to the Force. Through long practice, he had achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat.

Right, because no other Sith Lord in history has fit that description (Revan, Bane, Palpatine, Anakin/Vader, Krayt...).

 

Kun was able to create terrifying creatures twisted by the dark side's influence...

And Palpatine didn't?

 

...drained the life-force of almost the entire Massassi race, transcending his own mortal body...

Kinda reminds me of Darth Nihilus, the Sith Emperor Vitiate, Palpatine (the Force draining), and Palpatine again (spirit transference).

 

Kun's power in the Force became extraordinary. He had a strong Force sense, the ability of Force Flight, and was capable of emitting Force Blasts from his hands that could crumble stone walls and kill Sithspawn with a single hit.

Again, why are you implying that other Sith haven't had such abilities?

 

Oh, and by the way why don't you go and fight/kill a lion with a pen instead of a sword? Politic is a twisted game made by the degraded human brain and in the end "caesar" fears the general and his soldiers, they represent the raw power, as it is in the nature.

Well, for starters, you don't go and kill a lion with a pen (not in a one-on-one confrontation, anyway) because if you're smart you have more than a pen at your disposal.

 

Your personal distaste for politics is irrelevant; that Exar Kun brute-forced his way to the top of a single civilization of savages does not place him on nearly the same level of achievement as Palpatine, who (aside from essentially killing the old Jedi Order) dominated the majority of the known galaxy with few people even knowing his rule wasn't legitimate, or Revan, who built a power base for himself within the Republic military and Jedi Order such that he was able to pull off a mass-defection and conversion into Sith. Or that Revan's and Palpatine's rises clearly demonstrated in them enough skill to kill with the pen or the sword, which is more than can be said for Kun.

[Andon Key]

Excuse me, If I sounded offensive in my last post. It's true that I do not like what Darth Sidious represents and politic on other side, but I am trying to be objective more than prejudiced. Palpatine's intellect is unquestionable. He managed to accomplish what he did(destroying jedi order and rule for 2 decades) due to his cunning, manipulation and foreseeing abilities. His servants and the clone army actually took out the jedi, he did not do that by himself (he did not kill Yoda and Anakin helped in defeating Windu, we can not be sure what could have happened if Anakin was not there). From my point of view he is coward, hiding behind his mask and let others do his plans. However its the Force might we are speaking about here. In that matter it is not necessary to be sith to accomplish what he did, anyone with superior intellect and strong will could do that (he could have wiped out Yoda and Windu with setting up precise traps, as we know even Yoda was not that wise and he did many mistakes in his judgements; and yes not only force sensitive beings could have impenetrable mind).

The Force represents raw power as it is in the nature, not politics. So let us concentrate on the force powers here and compare Kun and Sidious by their force abilities.

The facts we have about the lightsaber's skills of Kun and Sidious are in favour of Kun. Palpatine killed Kolar, Tiin and Fisto because they underestimated him, they were too confident that 4 of them could handle him without many efforts. So his skill with the lightsber and his quickness surprised them in that moment. So YES he had advantage, but not entirely based on his lightsaber skill.

Kun on the other hand invented his double-bladed lightsaber and had his own combat style. He was able to repeatedly defeat fellow students Crado and Sylvar in practice duels. He defeated ancient Odan-Urr, by Odan-Urr stating that his skill in the force and lightsaber can not match Kun's. Exar Kun killed his master Vodo-Siosk Baas, who was extremely skilled in the lightsaber combat, "With minimal effort". And Kun did not do that by surprise. He had the balls to state his beliefs and go in fair open fight.

Nomi Sunrider led thousands of Jedi against Kun to be able to defeat him but even then not entirely. And Darth Sidious allowed some cripple(Vader) to throw him in the shaft. He should have known so far that love is Vader's weakness and he should presumed that in the very moment he is killing what is left of Padme, which was Vader's biggest tragedy. So we have here stupidity, overconfidence, arrogance, all of it being weaknesses.

Kun possessed Freedon Nadd's amulet. With it Kun's power in the Force became extraordinary. With his Force Blasts he could crumble stone walls and crush bodies. Palaptine got his lightning but as it was stated in the post above he needed some preparation for it. The way I see it that Sidious will last like... 1 minute versus Kun in a straight fight.

Exar Kun survived for more than 4000 years. Kun could travel at will anywhere on Yavin 4, and was capable of enhancing others' Force powers (as when he helped Kyp Durron recover the Sun Crusher). He retained mental command over his Sith alchemy creations, which had survived from 4,000 years ago. His spirit form did not limit him from attacking others directly, as he burned Gantoris to death from the inside out and summoned two-headed bird like creatures composed of pure dark side energy, to tear Luke's body apart. Kun was also able to attack Corran Horn - in the guise of Keiran Halcyon. Horn believed that Kun could not affect the physical world and to prove him wrong, Kun used the Force to melt the detonators attached to the explosives Horn had brought and proceeded to assault Corran directly with the force, both physically and mentally.

[UltimateHK47]

I think it is between Anakin and Darth Sidious becasue Anakin destryed the jedi, was the chosen one and defeated an extreamly powerful sithlord. Not to mention he kicked ol obi wans ass! But Sidious kept himself secret when around the other masters (even Yoda )

and ruled the galaxy. He brought the downfull of Windu, corrupted Anakin, and defeated Yoda in a dual. He did alot more things as did Anakin (remeber Ani was the greatest pilot in the galaxy though thats nothing to do with being a sith) but I think:

Sidious 1: First place for his messed up face

Vader 2: A truly awsome fighter, force user.

Revan 3: Revan was epic, put it that way.

Exar Kun 4: Very powerful and dangerous force user.

Bane 5: I don't know anything about him

 

PS: There would be others like Traya, Nihlious, Sion, Malak, the person out the force unleashed whos name I forgot, Duku, Maul ect but they wern't on the list

[Al_Ciao]

*snip*

 

You basically beat me to the punch dissecting Andon's post.

 

The Force represents raw power as it is in the nature, not politics. So let us concentrate on the force powers here and compare Kun and Sidious by their force abilities.

 

Some people are judging the powers of Sith lords by other means than raw power, just so you know. Force skills, manipulation, effectiveness, etc., are some of the other measures people are using.

 

And if the Force is in everything, then it is also in the ebb and flow of politics as well.

 

Also, if we are considering Force abilities alone, then note other powerful Force abilities Sith lords have had that rival or surpass Kun's.

 

In Dark Empire, Palpatine created a gigantic Force storm that effortlessly destroyed an entire Rebel starfleet.

 

In Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, Darth Nihilus sucked all life off an entire planet, at least once as we are specifically told, and it is implied he has done so to other worlds as well. Kun only drained one species; Nihilus drained it all, plants, animals, people - even an entire Conclave of Jedi Masters.

 

As told in the novel Revan, the Sith Emperor Vitiate also drained the planet of Nathema. But it states that where Katarr (the world Nihilus is famous for draining) was a wound in the Force, Nathema became a dead spot in the Force. There was no color, no joy, no life, no Force.

 

I too was once enamored of Exar Kun's "great power" and considered him greater than Palpatine. However:

 

1) Even if Exar Kun were theoretically more powerful in the Force than Palpatine, Palpatine has demonstrated more power, in the above-mentioned Force storm.

 

2) Although it took 1000s of Jedi to imprison Kun within a wall of light, it is also implied (in the comic series Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War) that that was due not merely to his personal power, but to both his draining of the Massassi and the various Sith temples that focused dark side power onto Yavin 4 in general and himself in particular.

 

3) Some of Exar Kun's demonstrated power also comes from artifacts rather than his own abilities. The Sith amulet that is specifically stated to amplify his power, and the amulet of Freedon Nadd that you mentioned. Freedon Nadd was nothing special, by the way - not even a true Sith. All he ever managed was to be the petty king of an out-of-the-way planet.

 

4) Many powers that Exar Kun used are stated to be "ancient Sith techniques" that he learned from Holocrons and scrolls looted on Ossus. I believe Naga Sadow was attributed the source of the draining and/or cosmic spirit ritual Kun attempts at the end of The Sith War, though it's been so long since I read it, I can't remember for sure.

 

5) Kun did indeed survive for 4000 years - as a spirit imprisoned on Yavin 4. Marka Ragnos' spirit survived over 5000 years, from the opening of Golden Age of the Sith comic series to the end of the video game Jedi Academy, and he appeared on multiple worlds over the galaxy. The True Sith Emperor Vitiate gained true immortality, living for at least 1500 years in a physical existence, rather than a disembodied spirit or needing to switch bodies

 

6) Finally, note that there are many inconsistencies throughout EU canon. It may be impossible to conclusively determine the "most powerful".

 

Not to mention he kicked ol obi wans ass!

 

When did he do this? In Episode III, Obi-wan won their duel conclusively. In Episode IV, Obi-wan deliberately sacrificed himself; we have no way of knowing who would have won if Ben had actually fought to win.

[SmootheOperator]

Finished reading "Revan" from the old republic, and i don't really think any sith or jedi in history can top Lord Vitiate. He enslaved both Revan and Malak, even if just for a short time, he broke them mentally, and turned them into his puppets. He completely consumed all life on his home planet of Nathema. He still beat Revan, and Meetra the Exile (admitted with little help from Scourge, but none the less, still beat them) Fed off the power of Revan. He has been closer than any Sith lord ever to achieving true immortality. He brought the Sith Empire back into existence after the Great Hyperspace War, he convinced Madalore the Ultimate to go to war with the republic. His voice, even as a child, carried the weight of the dark side. After he consumed Nathema, his voice seemed to carry the tortured souls of the millions of living things he had annihilated. In the end he was beaten, but you can't deny that he had accomplished more in a thousand years of rule, than any force user before him.

[Darth Saevus]

Sidious is without a doubt the strongest Sith Lord to ever exist. Not only are there countless references to this being true in all the Novels and fact books but George Lucas himself said Sidious was the strongest ever. When anyone else says another Sith is the strongest that is just pure fanboy fiction.

 

The Sith got stronger through the generations the apprentice always became stronger than the master so in fact Sidious would be WAY stronger than Bane. Sidious was the greatest Sith and all those after him paled in contrast. He was extremely intelligent and even more so powerful. What is truly the crowning jewel is that Sidious became even stronger after his duel with Yoda eventually doubling in power by the time of Dark Empire and equal to Prime Luke.

 

His feats are unmatched. His intelligence is unrivalled. Any who say Sidious isn't the strongest is just being a fanboy and one who cannot admit it when countless cannon articles say otherwise. More Canon approved Novels, Comics, games and fact books claim Sidious is the strongest Sith compared to any other Sith you can name.

[Mandalore5]

Revan has a balance of light and dark - this makes him more powerful than one who focuses purely on the dark side, as he can draw power from both.

Also, Sidious never did what Lord Vitiate could do, and Revan survived a duel with the latter.

[SmootheOperator]

Revan has a balance of light and dark - this makes him more powerful than one who focuses purely on the dark side, as he can draw power from both.

Also, Sidious never did what Lord Vitiate could do, and Revan survived a duel with the latter.

 

Revan did survive, but more as a vegetable. He was a source of power for Vitiate to feed from, not as the person he was before the battle, so it depends on your definition of "surviving".

[Mandalore5]

Physically, yes, he was unable to operate, but it was stated that he could mentally influence the actions of Vitiate during that time, so still had power even in that state.

[SmootheOperator]

Physically, yes, he was unable to operate, but it was stated that he could mentally influence the actions of Vitiate during that time, so still had power even in that state.

 

So who do you call more powerful. The slave who can slightly influence the thoughts of the one who slaved him, or the slaver who is still up and moving around like the bad-ass Sith emporer he was?

 

As much as Revan could influence, he was still rendered in a physically vegetative state by the Sith Emporer. Mentally, he was caged inside his own head with limited abilities to get into Vitiate's head, and only Vitiate. There was no ability to contact the outside world. Even being in prison on Hoth would be more of an existence then being a bug in the back of Vitiate's mind.

[Mandalore5]

Would the Emperor have survived a battle with Lord Vitiate? It is clear that the latter has greater dark-side power than the former, as he could strip the Force from entire planets, thus he would simply destroy Sidious - as Revan was able to call on both light and dark, he was able to survive and continue to fight in whatever way he could.

[HED]

Would the Emperor have survived a battle with Lord Vitiate? It is clear that the latter has greater dark-side power than the former, as he could strip the Force from entire planets, thus he would simply destroy Sidious - as Revan was able to call on both light and dark, he was able to survive and continue to fight in whatever way he could.

 

I suppose that depends on the circumstance. With what is established, a straight-up fight between the two would probably go to Vitiate. But if it were the climax of a protracted war between the two, I think Sidious would be able to figure something out ahead of time to level the playing field, and come out on top.