Stealing: Physical Vs. Digital

[KinchyB]

Yes, I'm old enough. Yes, I did record songs. No, that's no different than torrenting music. It's wrong according to the law, but I don't think the system is right.

 

Agreed!

 

Unfortunately as you said it is wrong according to the law. The Artist/Record Label does technically own the right to say if individuals can or cannot make copies of their work.

 

Although some can make an argument for "Fair Use" as it does state copyright infringement should take into consideration...

 

the purpose and character of the use

 

or

 

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

 

So if you already own all the CDs making a mixed tape has no impact on the value or potential market for the copyrighted material. Therefore you are fine. Now giving that mixed tape to your friend...whole other story. Unfortunately those involved in litigation have usually distributed works to their friends or online so making the "Fair Use" argument is somewhat futile.

 

So, is it theft...well, downloading something for free that normally costs something is always illegal no matter what you call it.

 

Edit: Removed duplicate wording in the last sentence

[Ray Jones]

Well, the thing is that you'll never get the full information when you tape a song from radio. More information (quality) is lost each time you play the cassette as well. You're not obtaining a carbon copy of the whole song, album or a computer game etc without permission.

 

Also, more important, you "pay" for the song you get via the radio over the advertisement or via taxes for federal radio stations.

 

It is however theft, if you've copied a complete album from record/tape to tape, or a computer game, like some did in those ancient times I grew up in.

[Achilles]

Well, the thing is that you'll never get the full information when you tape a song from radio. More information (quality) is lost each time you play the cassette as well. You're not obtaining a carbon copy of the whole song, album or a computer game etc without permission.

So it's not stealing if someone only downloads one song?

 

Also, more important, you "pay" for the song you get via the radio over the advertisement or via taxes for federal radio stations.

When I was younger and making tape recordings of songs on the radio, I wasn't paying taxes.

 

It is however theft, if you've copied a complete album from record/tape to tape, or a computer game, like some did in those ancient times I grew up in.

Clearly. No one is questioning that. Because that's something completely different, I don't know how well it answers my questions.

[Ray Jones]

If you download one song, it's still a quasi identical copy of the full song. If you record from radio, the song is almost never beginning to end, full of atmospheric stuff and whatnot.

 

When I still used MiniDiscs the recorder did not allow me to digitally copy a disc that was already a digital copy. I could however do an analogue copy as often as I wanted to (with a loss of quality each time) -- bad example, but maybe you get the idea.

 

As for paying taxes, well, there is still advertisement, and (that's at least what it is is Germany like), radio tax is paid per household, and at least *I* lived with my tax paying parents, so...

[Achilles]

If you download one song, it's still a quasi identical copy of the full song. If you record from radio, the song is almost never beginning to end, full of atmospheric stuff and whatnot.

 

When I still used MiniDiscs the recorder did not allow me to digitally copy a disc that was already a digital copy. I could however do an analogue copy as often as I wanted to (with a loss of quality each time) -- bad example, but maybe you get the idea.

 

As for paying taxes, well, there is still advertisement, and (that's at least what it is is Germany like), radio tax is pay per household, and at least *I* lived with my tax paying parents, so...

It seems that you're attacking the minutiae rather than addressing the point.

 

Perhaps I was a prodigy, but I got very good at being able to get the whole song. Top 40 stations tended to play...you guessed it: the same 40 songs over and over again. Hear them enough and you could usually identify a particular song in a note or two. Also, if you hit Pause before Record, then all you had to do was tap the Pause button to begin recording.

 

As for sound quality, we didn't have CDs (not that they weren't available, we simply didn't own them), so radio quality on a tape was pretty equitable to radio quality from a radio.

 

And yes my parents paid taxes too. Did this make me a partial owner of the music? Is that really the argument you're trying to to make here? I pay taxes when I buy a movie ticket. Does that entitle me to a crap-quality home video recording of my favorite scenes?

 

I hope I have satisfactorily addressed your counterarguments on the unrelated points. Do you think we could talk about the relevant ones now?

 

So, if I make a copy of a song from the radio that I have not paid for, is that theft?

[mimartin]

For those of us that are old enough to remember cassettes; did any of you ever record songs (with your boom box) that you heard on the radio (so that you could listen to them later on your Walkman)? Is that any different than what we're talking about here? If yes, how?

 

 

Heck, I’m old enough to remember doing this with real-to-real, 8-tracks and cassettes. Other than technical differences it was still stealing. I have no excuse I was a theft, but it did made me a music lover who owns over 3000 CDs today.

 

(gee, I just made myself feel ancient).

You made me feel ancient too. Thanks

 

Added: How is recording a song on the radio, different than recording a television program?

[Ray Jones]

Also, if you hit Pause before Record, then all you had to do was tap the Pause button to begin recording.

An ancient trick, unknown to the younglings. XD

 

So, if I make a copy of a song from the radio that I have not paid for, is that theft?

No. Recording from radio/tv is not theft.

[Achilles]

No. Recording from radio/tv is not theft.

Yet I've still obtained copyrighted material without paying for it.

[Ray Jones]

I've already tried to point out that you actually did pay for it. And since the radio station paid for it as well, you made a copy of legally obtained material.

[Achilles]

I've already tried to point out that you actually did pay for it. And since the radio station paid for it as well, you made a copy of legally obtained material.

No, I didn't. At best (best) some small portion of the taxes that my parents paid helped to pay the administrative costs of the government agency responsible for how that signal was transmitted to my radio, but that's it. I paid nothing. None of my parents tax money went to the radio station, the record label, or the musician(s).

[Arcesious]

Inevitably, I think the copyright and privacy laws are going to change dramatically, whether we like it or not. There are too many idiots ruining it for those of us who aren't criminals, and due to their actions, we're the ones losing a lot of our 'internet freedoms'. But that isn't going to stop the pirating buisnesses from pirating things. I'm not worried about having to pay to download songs off of sites, I'll gladly pay if it's worth it, I'm only worried about my privacy on my computer. I don't have anything to hide, but I still want computer privacy nonetheless.

[Ray Jones]

No, I didn't. At best (best) some small portion of the taxes that my parents paid helped to pay the administrative costs of the government agency responsible for how that signal was transmitted to my radio, but that's it.

And how do you think do the stations get the money to buy the rights to air the songs?

[JCarter426]

Eh...it's a different situation with television (probably radio, too, but I know next to nothing about radio since I never listen to it, so I'll only mention television). Networks in the US are privately owned, and thus they get payed by private owners--not the viewers, however, as all major networks in the US are free to watch (as opposed to cable/satellite). Networks get their money from advertisers. Advertisers give money to networks because they know the station's viewers will see their commercials and draw in customers (at least, they hope so).

 

When you watch a recording, what do you do when the commercials come on? You fast-forward. The advertisers know this, and it annoys them to no end. There's also the matter of people who hit the mute button when the commercials come on, and viewers who get their shows from "other" sources (i.e. torrents).

 

As of now, there is no widely used method that allows the advertisers to know who's watching what and when they're watching it (note I say there is no widely used method; several exist, but none are widely used). Which means that ad reps and networks resort to polls and surveys to figure out which shows are popular (and what age groups they're popular in, etc). So the most they can figure out is who's watching what shows. But that doesn't tell them how many people actually see the commercials, whether they avoid it through the mute button, the fast-forward button, or the download button. So it's all guesswork from there. And even if all those viewers actually see the commercials, there's no way to know if the commercials actually draw in more customers.

 

So it's a completely different matter. The actors, writers, producers, and other staff of TV shows get paid by the networks, who get paid by advertisers, who can only hope that their commercials draw in customers. Video game developers get paid by publishers who get paid by the customers. No guesswork involved in the latter.

[Achilles]

I don't know how it works where you are but in the U.S. radio stations are paid by advertisers. The only exception (that I am aware of) is public radio which receives some government money (via arts related funding) and contributions from listeners (like me ).

[Rev7]

I don't think that there is any difference between Physical Theft or Digital Theft. None what-so-ever. Theft is still theft. To myself, that is all that it comes down to.

[Ray Jones]

So, advertisement...

 

And why do you think do the advertisers get money from companies to propagate their creations, and why do the advertisers pay money to radio stations to air their product propaganda?

 

You might not pay for a song in a specific manner, but you pay one or another way for every song blown into the ether.

 

It gets more clearer in the case of pay tv etc, where you have almost no advertising, at least not during the movies, but pay plenty of bucks instead.

[Achilles]

So, advertisement...

 

And why do you think do the advertisers get money from companies to propagate their creations, and why do the advertisers pay money to radio stations to air their product propaganda?

Advertisers pay money to radio stations so that they can advertise their company's products to consumers. Some percentage of listeners buy the product which bring revenue to the company which uses part of that revenue to pay for more advertising so that more consumers will buy their product. Hooray capitalism! What is your point?

 

You might not pay for a song in a specific manner, but you pay one or another way for every song blown into the ether.

You really are reaching, my friend. But I'll humor you: What if my parents never buy any of the goods or services advertised on the radio? Their money goes to some other company which only advertises in newspapers (which now entitles me, as their son, to be able to steal newspapers, using the logic in the argument that you have presented). Not one of their dimes goes into the coffers of those companies that advertise on the radio. Am I now stealing when I record music off the radio?

[JCarter426]

And why do you think do the advertisers get money from companies to propagate their creations, and why do the advertisers pay money to radio stations to air their product propaganda?

 

Because they think listeners/viewers will hear/see their commercials and buy their products. But they can only hope that. Copying a song/TV show is different from copying a CD/video game. The original creators of the CD/video game get paid when their product sells. Creators of a song/TV show get paid when people listen to their song or watch their show, because that's the only way advertisers can know which songs/shows are popular, and where they should spend their money. See the difference? Creators of a song or TV show get paid even if their product is stolen. It's only the advertisers that lose out in that scenario.

 

It gets more clearer in the case of pay tv etc, where you have almost no advertising, at least not during the movies, but pay plenty of bucks instead.

Don't know how it is where you are, but in the US, even cable/satellite have loads of commercials. They do this (I think) so that they don't have to charge insanely high monthly fees. Oh, wait a minute, they do charge insanely high monthly fees. So I guess they're just greedy.

 

But taking a scenario in which there are no commercials into account...

 

Hmm...well, that's a completely different situation altogether. Odds are you're going to pay those insanely high monthly fees even if you record your shows/movies (because you have to pay those fees in order to record them). But downloading a show/movie so that you don't have to pay those fees is another matter.

[Achilles]

Creators of a song or TV show get paid even if their product is stolen.

If that's the case, then why is there such a hubbub over downloading music? If all I want is one or two songs off an album and the argument is that the creator of a song is going to get paid even if their product is stolen, then I don't understand what the problem is.

 

Likewise, I should be able to download as many TV shows as I want also, correct?

[JCarter426]

If that's the case, then why is there such a hubbub over downloading music? If all I want is one or two songs off an album and the argument is that the creator of a song is going to get paid even if their product is stolen, then I don't understand what the problem is.

Me neither. It might hurt CD sales, but does anyone buy a CD for just one song?

 

Downloading a whole album is another matter, of course (it's in the same category as downloading a video game, in my opinion).

 

Likewise, I should be able to download as many TV shows as I want also, correct?

Same as above, but with DVD sales. Though DVDs are a tad different, since they come out months after the show airs (so depending on the situation, they might be completely irrelevant). Also, I'm fairly certain that the writers/actors/producers/other staff don't get a cent from DVD sales, so it's not really copyright violation either. So while it is stealing, in a sense, I don't see how it deprives anyone of anything.

[Ray Jones]

What if my parents never buy any of the goods or services advertised on the radio?

Doesn't matter. The main thing about advertisement is that people are receiving it.

 

Their money goes to some other company which only advertises in newspapers (which now entitles me, as their son, to be able to steal newspapers, using the logic in the argument that you have presented).

I can't see that kind of path in my logic.

 

Not one of their dimes goes into the coffers of those companies that advertise on the radio. Am I now stealing when I record music off the radio?

No. You heard the advertisement, which is what the radio stations received their cheque for.

[EnderWiggin]

Doesn't matter. The main thing about advertisement is that people are receiving it.

 

I can't see that kind of path in my logic.

 

No. You heard the advertisement, which is what the radio stations received their cheque for.

 

I disagree with the first point; if no one buys the product the advertiser will stop advertising there.

I disagree with the second point; that's exactly what your logic says to me.

I disagree with the third point; the radio stations aren't going to keep receiving checks if the consumers just listen and never buy.

 

I've already tried to point out that you actually did pay for it. And since the radio station paid for it as well, you made a copy of legally obtained material.

 

So you seriously believe that because you listen ot a bit of advertising, you are entitled to steal the intellectual property of others?

 

Well let's take this to its logical conclusion. What happens after (we'll use Achilles' example) you record the 30 songs on the top 40 station that you like onto tapes? Are you going to keep listening to that station? No. That's the whole point of making the copy. What happens to that advertising now, huh?

 

_EW_

 

 

Wow. For once you and I agree, Achilles.

[Ray Jones]

Well, I don't steal intellectual property when I record a song from radio, which I'm not gonna sell, distribute otherwise, nor do say that I made it. No copyright is violated.

 

And when someone forever stops to listen to radio just because you recorded a handful of songs, well, then he's an easy to entertain mind.

[Achilles]

Me neither. It might hurt CD sales, but does anyone buy a CD for just one song?

Nowadays? No, I highly doubt that they do. In the bad old days, yeah, that was kinda-sorta your only choice (you younglings probably can't wrap your head around the idea of life without mp3s or cable television )

 

Downloading a whole album is another matter, of course (it's in the same category as downloading a video game, in my opinion).

Forgive me, but I'm still seeing this is an "it either is or it isn't" type things. Downloading music is either stealing music or it isn't (obvious exception for when musicians give their music away).

 

Same as above, but with DVD sales. Though DVDs are a tad different, since they come out months after the show airs (so depending on the situation, they might be completely irrelevant). Also, I'm fairly certain that the writers/actors/producers/other staff don't get a cent from DVD sales, so it's not really copyright violation either. So while it is stealing, in a sense, I don't see how it deprives anyone of anything.

Were paying very much attention during the recent Writer's Guild strike, eh?

 

Yes, many players in the television industry are counting on "residuals" from DVD sales and are willing to strike for months on end for half a cent.

 

Doesn't matter. The main thing about advertisement is that people are receiving it.

Then how am I entitled to the music (in your model)?

 

I can't see that kind of path in my logic.

Sure. Your argument was that if my parents are paying money that somehow supports the music, then I am entitled to it. Exact same thing except I've replaced "music" with "newspapers". If the argument works in one set of conditions but not the other, then something is wrong with the argument.

 

No. You heard the advertisement, which is what the radio stations received their cheque for.

Unless I am a consumer that will purchase the product advertised or part of the marketing apparatus that helps determine ratings, this doesn't matter. In the scenario I provided (preteen male), I was neither.

 

Wow. For once you and I agree, Achilles.

No we don't

 

Well, I don't steal intellectual property when I record a song from radio, which I'm not gonna sell, distribute otherwise, nor do say that I made it. No copyright is violated.

Then I can download as much media as I like so long as I don't distribute it. Right?

 

And when someone forever stops to listen to radio just because you recorded a handful of songs, well, then he's an easy to entertain mind.

That may be, but a personal critique is not the foundation of a solid counterargument.

[JCarter426]

Nowadays? No, I highly doubt that they do. In the bad old days, yeah, that was kinda-sorta your only choice (you younglings probably can't wrap your head around the idea of life without mp3s or cable television )

I don't have cable or an mp3. (Actually, I don't listen to music, so I wouldn't know if one would buy a CD for one song. ). I was going by the premise that no one would buy an entire season just for one episode...but I guess it's a little different.

 

Forgive me, but I'm still seeing this is an "it either is or it isn't" type things. Downloading music is either stealing music or it isn't (obvious exception for when musicians give their music away).

Oh, yes it is stealing, no doubt there. But there's a slight difference: downloading or recording one song when you wouldn't buy the entire album does not. But if you would buy a CD just for one song, then everything just goes out the window. So I guess it depends on how well you can lie to yourself.

 

Were paying very much attention during the recent Writer's Guild strike, eh?

 

Yes, many players in the television industry are counting on "residuals" from DVD sales and are willing to strike for months on end for half a cent.

Well, the writers gave up the residuals, did they not...or did they just settle for a lower rate? (I forget...I was just happy the strike was over ).

 

But in any case, yes, it is stealing, if you define stealing as taking what one did not pay for, rather than taking something from someone without paying for it.