Hitler, The Nazi Party, and Christianity

[SkinWalker]

I have plenty of beliefs. I don't think I've ever stated otherwise. My beliefs, however, are always open to revision or improvement based on available data and evidence.

 

Now, back on topic. If there's anything left to discuss regarding Hitler and his apparently Christian beliefs, particularly now that I've compared and contrasted with his admitted influences in the Old Testament, please comment.

 

Additional discussion or concerns about daring to criticize Islamo-Judeo-Christian mythology should be sent via PM or handled in the Site Feedback Forum. They'll be deleted here.

[GarfieldJL]

[trolling deleted]

Now, back on topic. If there's anything left to discuss regarding Hitler and his apparently Christian beliefs, particularly now that I've compared and contrasted with his admitted influences in the Old Testament, please comment.

 

And as been pointed out earlier, there is evidence to suggest that Hitler was an atheist, based on comments he had made in private as people have pointed out earlier in this thread.

[SkinWalker]

I saw some discussion about a private speech, but I didn't see any reference to the speech itself. Please give a citation and perhaps a quote of the paragraphs containing the relevant statement as well as the two paragraphs that precede and follow.

 

EDIT: Never mind. I found Tommycat's post with this in it.

[Rogue Nine]

For the record, I'm not Jewish, if I was once you went on that comparisonfest of yours, quite frankly, I wouldn't have bothered to point that out publicly here, I would have sent a letter of complaint to Lucas Arts and inform them of the situation and let George Lucas' lawyers deal with the situation.

 

Quite frankly you pretty much violated the board's own rules in some of your comments, which were highly inflammatory, and since you're a moderator it makes it look like the staff of this board endorses your views, that opens them up if a Jewish Group decided to take legal action and they'd have every reason to file a lawsuit. And if you think they don't how about you look up the holocaust on wikipedia or something.

 

As far as not having a rational argument, you should really look in the mirror, all I'm going to say is that you crossed the line in your latest bashfest of people who aren't atheist.

 

And if you want to know why I'm so furious, it's because I have friends THAT ARE JEWISH, and I know how hurtful and angering your latest rant would be.

 

Well the fact he compared key figures in the Old Testament to Hitler whom tried his best to wipe the Jewish people out, the fact this occurred less than 100 years ago and some holocaust survivors are still alive makes his comments no laughing matter, and some people quite honestly the comments being made are such in my opinion they'd have legit grounds to sue.

For the record, there is no legal grounds on which to sue LucasForums based on the accusations you have made. There is no basis for which a party to bring action against this site because no hate speech has occurred. Hate speech is a crime that is very narrowly defined (must be either defamation or incitement to violence) and the statements made by SkinWalker and others here completely and utterly fail to meet the requirements set down by law.

 

Oh and I've taken a constitutional law class so I know what I'm talking about.

[Q]

@Garfield:

 

I'm only going to add that, in case you didn't notice, this is the only area on the entire forum where they can do this now, AFAIK. Right or wrong, they've been pushed out of everywhere else. So let them continue to post their FUD. It only offends me when I'm drunk.

 

You're not going to get anywhere by running this complaint up through the chain of command, either, and you know it. IIRC, the last time that you did it resulted in the staff's withdrawal of the one concession that they were willing to make.

[SkinWalker]

Looking at the Table Talk letters, clearly Hitler had some mixed thoughts about Religion and spirituality. He was definitely critical of the way Jewish people worshiped:

"The Jew, on the other hand, worshipped and continues to worship, then and now, nothing but the golden calf. The Jewish religion is devoid of all metaphysics and has no foundation but the most repulsive materialism." (Hitler, Table Talk, p. 77)

And he was critical of believers in church dogma:

"As for the men close to me, who, like me, have escaped from the clutches of dogma, I've no reason to fear that the Church will get its hooks on them." (Hitler, Table Talk, p. 62)

But then you stumble across something like:

"When one says that God provokes the lightning, that's true in a sense; but what is certain is that God does not direct the thunderbolt, as the Church claims. The Church's explanation of natural phenomena is an abuse, for the Church has ulterior interests. True piety is the characteristic of the being who is aware of his weakness and ignorance. Whoever sees God only in an oak or in a tabernacle, instead of seeing Him everywhere, is not truly pious. He remains attached to appearances— and when the sky thunders and the lightning strikes, he trembles simply from fear of being struck as a punishment for the sin he's just committed." (Hitler, Table Talk, p. 84)

In the quote above he seems to hold an a priori acceptance of not just a god, but "God" with the capital "G." He also indicates that he believes in "true piety" and that God can be "everywhere."

 

He also seems to hold an acceptance that "Christ" was a real person: "Christ was an Aryan,..." (Hitler, Table Talk, 143). And he also expressed his interest in biblical mythology, particularly those "delicate topics":

"I had a particular liking for the delicate subjects in the Bible, and I took a naughty pleasure in asking embarrassing questions. Father Schwarz, our teacher, was clever at giving me evasive answers. So I kept on insisting until he lost his patience. One day—I've forgotten with reference to what—he asked me if I said my prayers in the morning, at midday and at night. "No, sir, I don't say prayers. Besides, I don't see how God could be interested in the prayers of a secondary schoolboy." "Sit down, then!"" (Hitler, Table Talk, p. 189)

Two things can be derived from this quote (assuming these are his true words): 1) he spent a lot of time analyzing the parts of biblical mythology that most theologians avoid (i.e. genocides and democides); 2) he was once a Christian. The quote below shows his belief in God (with the capital "G") at the time of World War II:

"What is ruining Christianity to-day is what once ruined the ancient world. The pantheistic mythology would no longer suit the social conditions of the period. As soon as the idea was introduced that all men were equal before God, that world was bound to collapse." (Hitler, Table Talk, 336)

He sees a god as existing and superior to humanity. He just doesn't believe that modern organized religious dogma has it right.

 

pp. 341-344

"Man must be put in a position to develop freely the talents that God has given him."

Hitler makes many comments and statements that affirm his belief in a god, but rejects the Judeo-Christian version of religion as flawed, a lie, etc. If we take his private letters as evidence (and I see no reason not to), we can conclude that Hitler was a Christian at least until 1933 (p. 343); that he believes in a god, possibly the Christian god; that he was not an atheist. At best, Hitler is a pantheist, believing god is in "everything," but other notions he writes of divinity and superiority seem to indicate a monotheistic god.

[GarfieldJL]

And Garfield has said that atheism is the cause for the holocaust and the soviet union deaths, which makes us even as far as expressing our ideas goes I think.

 

No, because you guys have claimed that Atheism isn't a religion, are you now saying Atheism is a religion?

 

Would you prefer if I compared their genocidal heroes to another genocidal figurehead? Hitler is the easiest to come to mind, but hardly the only one.

 

But, frankly, if they don't want the figureheads they worship to be compared to a mass murderer... well, they shouldn't be worshiping figureheads that committed mass murder.

 

I have two things I could justifiably call you back up by those comments alone, considering the Jewish people is not only a group that all practices a particular religion but are also a specific ethnic group.

 

He also seems to hold an acceptance that "Christ" was a real person: "Christ was an Aryan,..." (Hitler, Table Talk, 143). And he also expressed his interest in biblical mythology, particularly those "delicate topics":

 

There is enough proof out there to prove Jesus was a real person, saying Jesus existed doesn't make Hitler a Christian, because the Romans acknowledged that Jesus existed when they weren't Christian at the time...

[SkinWalker]

There is enough proof out there to prove Jesus was a real person, saying Jesus existed doesn't make Hitler a Christian, because the Romans acknowledged that Jesus existed when they weren't Christian at the time...

 

Please. Start a thread and post this evidence. I challenge you to post any evidence that doesn't cite itself (i.e. the biblical mythology) and is contemporaneous to the alleged Jesus.

 

Again, and on topic, Hitler believed Jesus existed; believed god existed; had a Christian education. He renounced Christianity (his own words in a private letter/discussion) in 1933, apparently (again, looking at his own words) because he didn't like the way organized religion portrayed his god and his messiah (he saw Jesus as an Aryan).

 

Hitler was definitely not an atheist. He was definitely Christian at one point. He was probably a believer in the Christian god and Jesus (mythical beings, but believed they existed according to his writings). He also admitted to being fascinated by the things in the bible that other religionists ignored and overlooked (like genocides and democides). Therefore, one can conclude that Christianity influenced his behavior and it is even probable that he justified his actions viz a viz the murderous and genocidal behavior of Moses, Joshua, David, et al. -characters in biblical mythology. QED.

[Tommycat]

Looking at the Table Talk letters, clearly Hitler had some mixed thoughts about Religion and spirituality. He was definitely critical of the way Jewish people worshiped: And he was critical of believers in church dogma: But then you stumble across something like: In the quote above he seems to hold an a priori acceptance of not just a god, but "God" with the capital "G." He also indicates that he believes in "true piety" and that God can be "everywhere."

 

He also seems to hold an acceptance that "Christ" was a real person: "Christ was an Aryan,..." (Hitler, Table Talk, 143). And he also expressed his interest in biblical mythology, particularly those "delicate topics": Two things can be derived from this quote (assuming these are his true words): 1) he spent a lot of time analyzing the parts of biblical mythology that most theologians avoid (i.e. genocides and democides); 2) he was once a Christian. The quote below shows his belief in God (with the capital "G") at the time of World War II: He sees a god as existing and superior to humanity. He just doesn't believe that modern organized religious dogma has it right.

 

Hitler makes many comments and statements that affirm his belief in a god, but rejects the Judeo-Christian version of religion as flawed, a lie, etc. If we take his private letters as evidence (and I see no reason not to), we can conclude that Hitler was a Christian at least until 1933 (p. 343); that he believes in a god, possibly the Christian god; that he was not an atheist. At best, Hitler is a pantheist, believing god is in "everything," but other notions he writes of divinity and superiority seem to indicate a monotheistic god.

 

Basically as I had said at around post 11(I think it was 11, gosh two pages later and we're finally getting to what I said on page 1) that while he does not appear to have been an atheist, he does seem to cast off the Christian moniker. At best the Christians could call him an Agnostic. Which is fair. I don't mind that Hitler shared my "religion" because his actions are independent of my spirituality. They have no bearing on agnostics as a whole.

 

Hitler talks highly of God, but talks poorly about Christianity. So without a replacement religion, we can assume that Christianity and Judaism are off his list(and Satanism as well, as he would be praising Satan rather than calling the positive deity God).

[SkinWalker]

I can agree with that.

[GarfieldJL]

I'd actually say that it was more likely that Hitler considered "God" to be the state, if you look at the title he took for himself.

 

And SkinWalker, if you're as big on Anthropology and archeology as you claim, you'd know that Jesus existed, you can argue as to whether or not he was the Son of God, but you can't claim he didn't exist.

[Tommycat]

I'd actually say that it was more likely that Hitler considered "God" to be the state, if you look at the title he took for himself.

 

I'd disagree. He may have thought himself being a leader. He may have even considered himself God(he never really names the God he is praising... and Hitler being an egomaniac, I could see him talking of God and meaning himself), but not the state.

[GarfieldJL]

I'd disagree. He may have thought himself being a leader. He may have even considered himself God(he never really names the God he is praising... and Hitler being an egomaniac, I could see him talking of God and meaning himself), but not the state.

 

That's a possibility too, I could go for the argument that Hitler was a highly charismatic egomaniac.

[SkinWalker]

And SkinWalker, if you're as big on Anthropology and archeology as you claim, you'd know that Jesus existed, you can argue as to whether or not he was the Son of God, but you can't claim he didn't exist.

 

Start a new thread with your assertions that Jesus Christ, as depicted in the bible, actually existed and what evidence you have to support that assertion, and I'll show you where your flaws are.

 

There is an existing thread, but I'd like to see this start fresh. I'm betting you won't take me up on this because you've consistently demonstrated a lack of willingness to support your beliefs and assertions when it comes to religious mythology.

 

I'm even willing to restrict the thread to just you and I, booting any commenters out, making it a formal debate. Its your decision. Whatever the outcome of such a thread, I promise no one will doubt my "claims" of anthropology and archaeology following its conclusion.

[Tommycat]

haha well I wouldn't put too much ctock into that. It's one of many possibilities, and is only a theory of mine. I haven't even fleshed it out all that well. but much of Mein Kampf shows how arrogant the b7 was. It's entirely possible he thought himself God but refused to say it.But again, there's no evidence to prove that.